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On August 08 2012 17:09 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:39 Jarree wrote:
Seeker missile does friendly aoe too. I have no idea why fungal doesnt do friendly damage. It would make sense for it to do and it would increase the skillcap in z. As soon as Zerglings get R5 I'm totally on your side with this change.
Even psionic storm does friendly damage and Protoss has melee units as well......
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On August 08 2012 22:38 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 22:28 Shiori wrote:
Giving Fungal friendly fire would make the spell extremely terrible. I'd prefer a nerf to its rooting effect.
I saw someone bring up Overlord drops awhile ago. Now, I'm not saying that they're imbalanced, or anything, because they're very rare and there isn't enough sample to decide, but I honestly have no idea what the proper response to an Overlord drop on, say, Daybreak is. It's essentially impossible to scout, nullifies Sentries, and can't really be stopped in the same way that Protoss normally stops drops (taking out the dropship before it unloads).
So I pose the question to you: what should a Protoss player do against Overlord drops? If you talk about dropping Infestors to Fungal the probeline the only response is to pull the Probes away in time, but then Zerg can just load up and fly away. It is really surprising to me that we have yet to see something like that. Without perfect reaction time you would lose 8-10 Probes 100% guaranteed. It's like a Stormdrop but 10x better since you can not walk out of the Storm. I guess people don't do that because Infestors got burrow movement and it is way easier to execute something like that when you can be in the probeline completely undetected.. That would be a sick strategy.. get an Overlord, drop Infestors at the edge of the base and burrow then scout the base with the Overlord and sac it so that P won't notice it's more than a sacrificial Overlord..
I was referring more to the Roach/Ling (sometimes Banelings mixed in) drops en masse with ~10 Overlords. It hits right around when Protoss players are looking to take a third base, and at a point that they're mostly on Sentries for defence. I haven't figured out a way to not take massive damage from it.
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On August 08 2012 09:45 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great. broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs.
As Terran, I think the radius for scan should be reduced. It's radius is almost twice as much as its animation.
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On August 08 2012 10:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 09:47 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 09:43 Shiori wrote:
I see. Well, I'd go on about why mech is kinda bad, but you already said that the maps are terrible. Seriously, unless it's like Metropolis or something, or maybe certain styles on Ohana, mech is pretty easy to exploit. Roach drops are murderous, for example. Roach drops are not actually that bad, buildings have a lot of HP, and your primary add-on is the tech lab. A light or heavy ring of Missile Turrets with range will be cost-effective against Roach drops, each full Overlord is 400/75, and each empty is still 100 Minerals that the Zerg no longer has, and you are floating minerals anyway. You can make sim-cities with your buildings to keep the Roaches clumped up and lift the ones in danger of burning down, letting Siege Tanks, Hellions, and Thors be very effective. If you got Banshees early on, they are especially useful here, as cliff-jumping to avoid the Mech units is not effective against them. Edit: Also, the map pool is not as bad as you claim. Sensor towers, PF's, depot walls, all help maps like Daybreak work great for Mech. Just check the Mech guide by LemonyTang. It's not a matter of playing out a split map scenario. That's easy. The problem is getting there. The Roach drops usually hit at a point where you're on an immobile Hellion/Tank composition trying to defend your nat/third against head on attacks. While you probably won't outrightly lose to the Roach drops, you will definitely take quite a bit of damage as you move to defend them. Don't forget, the Zerg is macroing up during this, too. Furthermore, the power of Roach drops plopped directly on a mech army shouldn't be underestimated. If you retreat, you lose your position and the advantage of siege mode. If you don't retreat, you run the risk of losing your entire army. It's a delicate balance that is virtually impossible to maintain on most maps currently in the pool. That, and mech is extremely boring to watch and play. I would do anything before asking for Blizzard to push Sc2 in the direction of mech. Terran is the only race that actually plays like a micro race right now all the way through, and that's a good thing. I don't want to see boring Tank/Thor/Hellion every TvZ when I've already seen how exciting biomech can be. First, if you had looked at the guide (here) you would see that it opens with Banshee/Hellion into 2 Thors, into either more Thors or Tanks. You're not restricted on which one, and you only need a few Siege Tanks to defend. On maps like Antiga, you can have 4-7 turrets at your perimiter with 2-4 Tanks to defend your front along with depot walls and Thors. If you need to jump to your main quickly, you can use banshees and hellions, or even elevator 1-2 Thors with a Medivac, which you can also use for Hellion drops.(untested)
Dropping Roaches onto a Mech army sucks. If you do it in combination with an attack, the Thor/Hellion/Banshee kills all the Roaches dropped on top of the army, and the Tanks focus down all the Roaches that are incoming from the ground. If you try to drop your whole army, you are sacrificing Overlords to get a bit closer, and even then the fact that you have to unload one at a time, onto a big ball of Tank/Thor/Hellion/Banshee, makes it very bad.
Last, it's a different style of play, and sometimes, believe it or not, people get tired of only Bio-Mech or Bio.
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On August 08 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:20 Lagcraft wrote:On August 08 2012 09:45 dde wrote:On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great. broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs. As Terran, I think the radius for scan should be reduced. It's radius is almost twice as much as its animation. Now that's an argument if I've ever heard one. Unfortunately it's already common for DT's to get away after being scanned, and if scan was nerfed then DT's would be OP, if not borderline OP.
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If you talk about dropping Infestors to Fungal the probeline the only response is to pull the Probes away in time, but then Zerg can just load up and fly away.
It is really surprising to me that we have yet to see something like that. Without perfect reaction time you would lose 8-10 Probes 100% guaranteed. It's like a Stormdrop but 10x better since you can not walk out of the Storm.
Probably because its not 10x better then a stormdrop?
Just think a minute before you state something like that.
Warpprism is FASTER (even without speed), unload 2 HT, double storm so you catch the whole mineral line, load in the moment you activated storm, fly away. Job done.
Ovi is slower than a warpprism, unload 2 Infestors, double fungal the mineral line, wait 4 seconds, fungal again (as one fungal is not enough to kill a probe), load in and try to escape.
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On August 08 2012 23:41 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On August 08 2012 23:20 Lagcraft wrote:On August 08 2012 09:45 dde wrote:On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great. broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs. As Terran, I think the radius for scan should be reduced. It's radius is almost twice as much as its animation. Now that's an argument if I've ever heard one. Unfortunately it's already common for DT's to get away after being scanned, and if scan was nerfed then DT's would be OP, if not borderline OP.
Right but it would force us to use the most underused unit in the game and give us a mobile detector, which for some reason, every race but us uses.
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On August 08 2012 23:54 Lagcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:41 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On August 08 2012 23:20 Lagcraft wrote:On August 08 2012 09:45 dde wrote:On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great. broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs. As Terran, I think the radius for scan should be reduced. It's radius is almost twice as much as its animation. Now that's an argument if I've ever heard one. Unfortunately it's already common for DT's to get away after being scanned, and if scan was nerfed then DT's would be OP, if not borderline OP. Right but it would force us to use the most underused unit in the game and give us a mobile detector, which for some reason, every race but us uses. If the Protoss goes DT's it's already better to get a Raven instead of using a ton of scans, but even for base defence you need scans to take out the DT's in your own base to keep them from sniping your Missile Turrets as they build, or to reactively defend using 2-3 scans if you were suspicious of DT's but you weren't sure.
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On August 08 2012 19:26 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 19:17 Rabiator wrote:On August 08 2012 17:09 Charon1979 wrote:On August 08 2012 15:39 Jarree wrote:
Seeker missile does friendly aoe too. I have no idea why fungal doesnt do friendly damage. It would make sense for it to do and it would increase the skillcap in z. As soon as Zerglings get R5 I'm totally on your side with this change. That would be awesome, because then they wouldnt run into the Marines and Siege Tanks wouldnt shoot their own Marines ... Its annoying to have a significant drawback like friendly fire for only one race even though all races have AoE abilities which should have the same problem. It was ok in BW since the units werent packed as tightly, but for SC2 it seems a bit too much of a drawback, so either all AoEs have friendly fire or none do. Different races work different. Most terran units are ranged and usually pretty long so friendly fire aint that big a problem. Most zerg units are either meelee or short range so aoe on friendly would kill your own units so much you never use fungal except when you go with solo infestor.
Different races working differently is a stupid argument, because not having melee units does NOT prevent siege tanks from killing their buddy Marines when there are Zerglings next to the Marines. The point remains that the easy SC2 movement AI causes clumped up Marines and that is terrible with friendly fire. If Blizzard would add dynamic unit movement which prevents clumping up there would not be a need for a change, but as long as they stick to their stupid "you HAVE TO micro to split your Marines against Banelings after moving from A to B" there should be a change to any friendly fire ability. Personally I would prefer to have dynamic unit movement and friendly fire for all AoE abilities (Baneling splash should damage any non-Baneling unit including your own and enemy Banelings).
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On August 08 2012 23:51 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +If you talk about dropping Infestors to Fungal the probeline the only response is to pull the Probes away in time, but then Zerg can just load up and fly away.
It is really surprising to me that we have yet to see something like that. Without perfect reaction time you would lose 8-10 Probes 100% guaranteed. It's like a Stormdrop but 10x better since you can not walk out of the Storm. Probably because its not 10x better then a stormdrop? Just think a minute before you state something like that. Warpprism is FASTER (even without speed), unload 2 HT, double storm so you catch the whole mineral line, load in the moment you activated storm, fly away. Job done. Ovi is slower than a warpprism, unload 2 Infestors, double fungal the mineral line, wait 4 seconds, fungal again (as one fungal is not enough to kill a probe), load in and try to escape.
Both are not being used until lategame, because it costs too much. (then both of those strategies are being used, because they are really good and you simply have the techs anyways)
Drops + OL speed + Pathogen + Infestation Pit is 550/550 alone. Now let's say you add 4 infestors (and an OL) then you have invested 1050/1150 into (probably) killing one probe/SCV/drone line.
How to counter this? Simple case of "just go and fucking kill him", for as long as the infestors are out of energy (~1-2min, IF they are able to retreat).
I guess every Protoss can do the same calculation with robo+HTs+Archive+Storm+Prism.
And on top of that, it's quite complicated to get all of that out in a similar time, due to how much gas it takes, so you can only afford it by building up a bank before that.
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You should have a turret to keep observers away anyways. But I'm not the right person to talk about scan range. I have a lot of harbored resentment that terrans can catch so many burrowed banelings with one scan.
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On August 09 2012 00:16 Probe1 wrote:
You should have a turret to keep observers away anyways. But I'm not the right person to talk about scan range. I have a lot of harbored resentment that terrans can catch so many burrowed banelings with one scan. It's the only way to limit the potential damage done by 2 banelings to my army. ._.
Assuming gas is 3x the cost of minerals, 2 Banelings cost 250 minerals, while a MULE mines either 240 or 270 minerals. Not a bad trade for Zerg considering the Zerg usually has at least slightly more cash than the Terran, especially after the Queen buff which lets them drone even harder than before. Not to mention the psychological factor of forcing the Terran to scan every time he moves out, regardless if you have Banelings there or not.
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On August 09 2012 00:16 Probe1 wrote:
You should have a turret to keep observers away anyways. But I'm not the right person to talk about scan range. I have a lot of harbored resentment that terrans can catch so many burrowed banelings with one scan.
detection is too good* overall in this game. All the cloaked units are being balanced around deploying a ton of damage if undetected, and doing nothing if detected.
All of that, because of 11sight on turrets,crawlers, canons (+ they are all really good anyways defensively, so why not get them anyways?), huge scan radius, hard to outmanouver observers (how do you outmanouver something that you don't see?) and quick building everywhere available Overseers.
*too good meaning, it turns cloak into a "I hope he is unprotected"-feature, instead of a steady tactical option (like in the Bisu build in BW)
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On August 08 2012 23:51 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +If you talk about dropping Infestors to Fungal the probeline the only response is to pull the Probes away in time, but then Zerg can just load up and fly away.
It is really surprising to me that we have yet to see something like that. Without perfect reaction time you would lose 8-10 Probes 100% guaranteed. It's like a Stormdrop but 10x better since you can not walk out of the Storm. Probably because its not 10x better then a stormdrop? Just think a minute before you state something like that. Warpprism is FASTER (even without speed), unload 2 HT, double storm so you catch the whole mineral line, load in the moment you activated storm, fly away. Job done. Ovi is slower than a warpprism, unload 2 Infestors, double fungal the mineral line, wait 4 seconds, fungal again (as one fungal is not enough to kill a probe), load in and try to escape.
or you can drop 4 banelings and kill every single scv without even a chance to respond for the opponent seeing that storm does damage or time and doesnt bind
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I actually feel like some cloaked units just don't have enough utility beyond being cloaked. I mean, what is a DT if your opponent has detection? Sort of useless. Same with Burrow. The Banshee has enough DPS (and its cloak is researched) that it can actually function as a unit. This is important. I wish we had more dynamic cloaked units like in BW, where the aim wasn't in hoping that your opponent doesn't have detection, but taking advantage of where his detection was, or on the current strength of the unit. Again, the Banshee is the best example of this in Sc2. Although I don't really like the unit because it's sort of boring, the fact that its cloak requires research means Blizzard has to make the unit actually decent on its own while visible. I feel like all cloaked units should have something like this, at least in principle. I'm not sure exactly how it would be done, but I don't really like the idea how having units which are basically gambles on one's opponent's detection.
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On August 09 2012 00:30 peidongyang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:51 Charon1979 wrote:If you talk about dropping Infestors to Fungal the probeline the only response is to pull the Probes away in time, but then Zerg can just load up and fly away.
It is really surprising to me that we have yet to see something like that. Without perfect reaction time you would lose 8-10 Probes 100% guaranteed. It's like a Stormdrop but 10x better since you can not walk out of the Storm. Probably because its not 10x better then a stormdrop? Just think a minute before you state something like that. Warpprism is FASTER (even without speed), unload 2 HT, double storm so you catch the whole mineral line, load in the moment you activated storm, fly away. Job done. Ovi is slower than a warpprism, unload 2 Infestors, double fungal the mineral line, wait 4 seconds, fungal again (as one fungal is not enough to kill a probe), load in and try to escape. or you can drop 4 banelings and kill every single scv without even a chance to respond for the opponent seeing that storm does damage or time and doesnt bind
1 infestor with 2 fungals and 2 banelings. BOOM
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On August 08 2012 23:54 Lagcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:41 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On August 08 2012 23:20 Lagcraft wrote:On August 08 2012 09:45 dde wrote:On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great. broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs. As Terran, I think the radius for scan should be reduced. It's radius is almost twice as much as its animation. Now that's an argument if I've ever heard one. Unfortunately it's already common for DT's to get away after being scanned, and if scan was nerfed then DT's would be OP, if not borderline OP. Right but it would force us to use the most underused unit in the game and give us a mobile detector, which for some reason, every race but us uses.
if our mobile detector doesn't cost 2x or 3x as other detectors, with over twice the build time, and requires a separate addon / tech, twice the supply costs, and have 1/3 less HP than overseers. Then people might build them more for the sole purpose of detection.
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On August 09 2012 00:35 Shiori wrote:
I actually feel like some cloaked units just don't have enough utility beyond being cloaked. I mean, what is a DT if your opponent has detection? Sort of useless. Same with Burrow. The Banshee has enough DPS (and its cloak is researched) that it can actually function as a unit. This is important. I wish we had more dynamic cloaked units like in BW, where the aim wasn't in hoping that your opponent doesn't have detection, but taking advantage of where his detection was, or on the current strength of the unit. Again, the Banshee is the best example of this in Sc2. Although I don't really like the unit because it's sort of boring, the fact that its cloak requires research means Blizzard has to make the unit actually decent on its own while visible. I feel like all cloaked units should have something like this, at least in principle. I'm not sure exactly how it would be done, but I don't really like the idea how having units which are basically gambles on one's opponent's detection.
Cloaked units such as DT still has lots of harass potential in the late game etc through sniping detection etc. Cloaked ghosts can also be a damn pain for protoss when terran mass scans and snipes all the observers with vikings.
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On August 09 2012 00:35 Shiori wrote:
I actually feel like some cloaked units just don't have enough utility beyond being cloaked. I mean, what is a DT if your opponent has detection? Sort of useless. Same with Burrow. The Banshee has enough DPS (and its cloak is researched) that it can actually function as a unit. This is important. I wish we had more dynamic cloaked units like in BW, where the aim wasn't in hoping that your opponent doesn't have detection, but taking advantage of where his detection was, or on the current strength of the unit. Again, the Banshee is the best example of this in Sc2. Although I don't really like the unit because it's sort of boring, the fact that its cloak requires research means Blizzard has to make the unit actually decent on its own while visible. I feel like all cloaked units should have something like this, at least in principle. I'm not sure exactly how it would be done, but I don't really like the idea how having units which are basically gambles on one's opponent's detection.
Yeah. I think it would help if all the statics had only like 7, 8 or 9 sight, so hiding in bases would be easier and running past the frontal turret, spore or canon would be quite easier (radius² *pi area covered, makes it so that slight changes could have quite huge impacts) and force more mobile detection as basedefense.
Also I think most interactions with scan are quite nice
-) scan vs banshee - at the beginning with very few available scans and few banshees and later on with static tanklines and high dps banshees
-) scan vs obs - especially with ghosts
-) scan vs infestor harass - which are quite mobile so you can still dodge them, or spread them all over a base if you ever get in and a terran won't find all of them
or could use only slight adjustments
-) scan vs banelinglandmines - make banelings unburrow faster so that you are not bound to lose them
-) scan vs DTs - like some small DT speed buff to dodge/spread after being scanned (or just a random idea, give them something like 3range blink or charge)
But basically all the other interactions turn out to be "sucide" missions or rely on unleashing their damage from far away and all at once (infestors, nukes).
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