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On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great.
broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs.
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On August 08 2012 09:43 Shiori wrote:
I see. Well, I'd go on about why mech is kinda bad, but you already said that the maps are terrible. Seriously, unless it's like Metropolis or something, or maybe certain styles on Ohana, mech is pretty easy to exploit. Roach drops are murderous, for example. Roach drops are not actually that bad, buildings have a lot of HP, and your primary add-on is the tech lab.
A light or heavy ring of Missile Turrets with range will be cost-effective against Roach drops, each full Overlord is 400/75, and each empty is still 100 Minerals that the Zerg no longer has, and you are floating minerals anyway. You can make sim-cities with your buildings to keep the Roaches clumped up and lift the ones in danger of burning down, letting Siege Tanks, Hellions, and Thors be very effective. If you got Banshees early on, they are especially useful here, as cliff-jumping to avoid the Mech units is not effective against them.
Edit: Also, the map pool is not as bad as you claim. Sensor towers, PF's, depot walls, all help maps like Daybreak work great for Mech. Just check the Mech guide by LemonyTang.
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On August 08 2012 09:45 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great. broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs. I say we need to test the changes one at a time. We don't get anywhere if we try several nerfs to Zerg at once, then all of a sudden Zerg is completely UP.
I vote for AoE nerf on Fungal first.
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On August 08 2012 09:48 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 09:45 dde wrote:On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great. broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs. I say we need to test the changes one at a time. We don't get anywhere if we try several nerfs to Zerg at once, then all of a sudden Zerg is completely UP. I vote for AoE nerf on Fungal first.
As a person who suggested all those things, I wouldn't think it is fair to change everything at the same time either.
Try one at a time, then probably only 2 or so changes are actually needed instead of all 4 of them in the end.
Just because infestor/BL appears OP today, nerfing both of them together would make it too weak.
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On August 08 2012 09:47 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 09:43 Shiori wrote:
I see. Well, I'd go on about why mech is kinda bad, but you already said that the maps are terrible. Seriously, unless it's like Metropolis or something, or maybe certain styles on Ohana, mech is pretty easy to exploit. Roach drops are murderous, for example. Roach drops are not actually that bad, buildings have a lot of HP, and your primary add-on is the tech lab. A light or heavy ring of Missile Turrets with range will be cost-effective against Roach drops, each full Overlord is 400/75, and each empty is still 100 Minerals that the Zerg no longer has, and you are floating minerals anyway. You can make sim-cities with your buildings to keep the Roaches clumped up and lift the ones in danger of burning down, letting Siege Tanks, Hellions, and Thors be very effective. If you got Banshees early on, they are especially useful here, as cliff-jumping to avoid the Mech units is not effective against them. Edit: Also, the map pool is not as bad as you claim. Sensor towers, PF's, depot walls, all help maps like Daybreak work great for Mech. Just check the Mech guide by LemonyTang.
It's not a matter of playing out a split map scenario. That's easy. The problem is getting there. The Roach drops usually hit at a point where you're on an immobile Hellion/Tank composition trying to defend your nat/third against head on attacks. While you probably won't outrightly lose to the Roach drops, you will definitely take quite a bit of damage as you move to defend them. Don't forget, the Zerg is macroing up during this, too. Furthermore, the power of Roach drops plopped directly on a mech army shouldn't be underestimated. If you retreat, you lose your position and the advantage of siege mode. If you don't retreat, you run the risk of losing your entire army. It's a delicate balance that is virtually impossible to maintain on most maps currently in the pool.
That, and mech is extremely boring to watch and play. I would do anything before asking for Blizzard to push Sc2 in the direction of mech. Terran is the only race that actually plays like a micro race right now all the way through, and that's a good thing. I don't want to see boring Tank/Thor/Hellion every TvZ when I've already seen how exciting biomech can be.
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On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas.
Out of all these nerf the only one that wouldnt break ZvP is the queen change, and if I see why someone would want to fix TvZ, I dont see any imbalance in ZvP right now
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On August 08 2012 11:35 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. Out of all these nerf the only one that wouldnt break ZvP is the queen change, and if I see why someone would want to fix TvZ, I dont see any imbalance in ZvP right now
Really? You don't see how stupid it is that Protoss players have to rely on Zergs making a dumb mistake like not splitting Broodlords to get the Vortex that will secure them the win?
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first of all they should make fungal hit the zergs own units too, so they can not fungle on top of marines fighting with zerglings without hiting their own units....
i mean wtf, every aoe spell in this fucking game hits the own units too and so requires carefull use, but not zerg aoe....why? One could argue that this is because zerg has so much melee units, but thats just as big as the problem as terra has when zerglings attack marines and siegetanks shoot them.....fungle should defenitely dmg zergs units as well......
and i think the larva limitation on hatches would be a great thing.....its kinda unfair that zerg basicly needs no infrastructure besides 1-2 makro hatch and extra queens in addition to their expansion and have almost unlimited production capabilitly, while terra or toss needs up to 20 gates plus 2-3 robos/factorys + 3 starports + addons, makes all in all at least 3k minerals 700 gas on production facilitys which the zerg just doesn t needs and can directly invest into static defense or army
as well i think burrow is way too strong.....its so cheap but you can do so many things with it, like saving your infestors, do sneaky attacks with infestors or roaches, block expansion, burrow lings all over the map to have vision, burrow baneling bombs.....just too strong for so less money and all the terra can do is get a raven with allready costs more then the burrow upgrade itself or scan 10231209 times..........they should make it that you have to research burrow for each unit you want to use it.....
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On August 08 2012 12:00 uzushould wrote:
first of all they should make fungal hit the zergs own units too, so they can not fungle on top of marines fighting with zerglings without hiting their own units....
i mean wtf, every aoe spell in this fucking game hits the own units too and so requires carefull use, but not zerg aoe....why? One could argue that this is because zerg has so much melee units, but thats just as big as the problem as terra has when zerglings attack marines and siegetanks shoot them.....fungle should defenitely dmg zergs units as well......
and i think the larva limitation on hatches would be a great thing.....its kinda unfair that zerg basicly needs no infrastructure besides 1-2 makro hatch and extra queens in addition to their expansion and have almost unlimited production capabilitly, while terra or toss needs up to 20 gates plus 2-3 robos/factorys + 3 starports + addons, makes all in all at least 3k minerals 700 gas on production facilitys which the zerg just doesn t needs and can directly invest into static defense or army
as well i think burrow is way too strong.....its so cheap but you can do so many things with it, like saving your infestors, do sneaky attacks with infestors or roaches, block expansion, burrow lings all over the map to have vision, burrow baneling bombs.....just too strong for so less money and all the terra can do is get a raven with allready costs more then the burrow upgrade itself or scan 10231209 times..........they should make it that you have to research burrow for each unit you want to use it.....
As much as I feel your frustration in your TvZ, that sounds overkill. Increasing burrow cost to 150 150 sounds more realistic option if we were to nerf it.
If T/P never complain agiain about fungal with addition of friendly fire, then I think Zerg can take it. With introduction of friendly fire, nothing changes for the scenario where your 20 marines are chain fungaled to death. I seriously doubt T/P would be satisfied solely with friendly fire. Problem seems to lie elsewhere.
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On August 08 2012 11:54 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 11:35 Protosnake wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. Out of all these nerf the only one that wouldnt break ZvP is the queen change, and if I see why someone would want to fix TvZ, I dont see any imbalance in ZvP right now Really? You don't see how stupid it is that Protoss players have to rely on Zergs making a dumb mistake like not splitting Broodlords to get the Vortex that will secure them the win?
It's also dumb that zerg cannot be aggressive until Infestor Broodlord
Is that a balance related issue ? Not it's a design related issue, and I fail to see how a straight nerf to zergs unit while nothing happen on the protoss side does to fix that Design
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Mutalisk play like drg?
200 roach max at 12?
There are a few ways to. You don't hace as many options as protoss but they're there.
Does anyone find it odd that you can't possibly scout drop tech from zerg? I mean if he has a lair he could be upgrading three upgrades at once and you could scan and not know a thing until 7 overlords leave his base if you get lucky... or in your face.  or burrow tech, if he has a banelingnest and a lair, he could also have burrow. Terrans forced to scan or make ravens If zergs mix up their playstyles? :x
/joke or rant?
But really the hatch/lair/hive needs an animation for dem upgrades right... give it a little dance
I'm not sur3e if the 19/15/11 for zerg production works, its a pretty heavy nerf but sounds cool; however it limits all other expos to 11 larva sinc how often do you see two hives, or a hive and 2 lairs, it overemphasizes the damage taken by losing a base. But I guess you could build macro hatches. Maybe zerg production is the problem but I tbink that's for fringe cases. Thing is infestor bl is just cost effective against most compositions and for zerg to be cost effective, lol, they have the best army turnover time and fastest expo rate, I think it has to do with the standing army. But forcing zergg to play a 300food game is silly, so there's a playstyle issue too. I think there should be a few more things blinfestor needs to be afraid of outside of a vortex or really good control as a terran player.
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On August 08 2012 12:39 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 12:00 uzushould wrote:
first of all they should make fungal hit the zergs own units too, so they can not fungle on top of marines fighting with zerglings without hiting their own units....
i mean wtf, every aoe spell in this fucking game hits the own units too and so requires carefull use, but not zerg aoe....why? One could argue that this is because zerg has so much melee units, but thats just as big as the problem as terra has when zerglings attack marines and siegetanks shoot them.....fungle should defenitely dmg zergs units as well......
and i think the larva limitation on hatches would be a great thing.....its kinda unfair that zerg basicly needs no infrastructure besides 1-2 makro hatch and extra queens in addition to their expansion and have almost unlimited production capabilitly, while terra or toss needs up to 20 gates plus 2-3 robos/factorys + 3 starports + addons, makes all in all at least 3k minerals 700 gas on production facilitys which the zerg just doesn t needs and can directly invest into static defense or army
as well i think burrow is way too strong.....its so cheap but you can do so many things with it, like saving your infestors, do sneaky attacks with infestors or roaches, block expansion, burrow lings all over the map to have vision, burrow baneling bombs.....just too strong for so less money and all the terra can do is get a raven with allready costs more then the burrow upgrade itself or scan 10231209 times..........they should make it that you have to research burrow for each unit you want to use it..... As much as I feel your frustration in your TvZ, that sounds overkill. Increasing burrow cost to 150 150 sounds more realistic option if we were to nerf it. If T/P never complain agiain about fungal with addition of friendly fire, then I think Zerg can take it. With introduction of friendly fire, nothing changes for the scenario where your 20 marines are chain fungaled to death. I seriously doubt T/P would be satisfied solely with friendly fire. Problem seems to lie elsewhere.
might be extremely overpowered but a good solution to fungal could be to allow medivacs to shoot out 5 healing lines instead of 1 healing line at a time (but make the lines invisible so it doesnt clutter the screen), and allow individual units the ability to suck up infinite amounts of healing lines (but a medivac can only provide 5 lines to 5 seperate units, so 20 medivacs could provide 20 lines each to 5 marines but not 100 lines to 1 marine.
medivacs would still need to spend normal energy on healing, so 5lines running would deplete energy 5x as fast
increasing their healing power by 500%, but moreso considering marines can take multiple lines, so really is almost like a healing power increase of 2500+%. Also add in smart-casting so theres no energy wasted. so now 20 marines with 20 medivacs, the marines would have like ungodly levels of healing strength and nothing but banelings could kill them.
might be extremely overpowered tho.... could be a big problem in tvp too
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On August 08 2012 12:42 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 11:54 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 11:35 Protosnake wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. Out of all these nerf the only one that wouldnt break ZvP is the queen change, and if I see why someone would want to fix TvZ, I dont see any imbalance in ZvP right now Really? You don't see how stupid it is that Protoss players have to rely on Zergs making a dumb mistake like not splitting Broodlords to get the Vortex that will secure them the win? It's also dumb that zerg cannot be aggressive until Infestor Broodlord
Is this a joke? Ever heard of 11'30 max Roach builds or Mutalisks?
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I think that one of the reasons that Infestor/BL and Infestors in general are so powerful is that they are not only cost efficient, but also extremely supply efficient. This is best seen in the late game when both armies in PvZ and TvZ are at 200/200 and they engage with something like 10+ infestors and an insane amount of support units. The infestors that can do a TON of damage and make the zerg army so powerful are only 20-40 supply, about 1/3 of the total army! Just two fungals can kill something like 20 marines and the rest of the zerg army just steamrolls over the rest. However, if the supply cost of Infestors were increased, that would mean that the zerg is actually investing more into his army supply wise, meaning he cant get 20 infestors and a ton of BL and call it a gg. It wouldnt change much in early mid or late midgame, since neither army is maxed yet, but it would change the whole dynamic of both PvZ and TvZ lategame.
And Protosnake, saying that zerg cant be aggressive until they have infestor/BL is just wrong. Especially in PvZ you see zergs max out around 12 min and do a doom push. Even if they dont, you constantly have the threat of a ling runby in every matchup. Sure, zerg might not be able to do a garuanteed killing blow before infestor/BL, but they can sure be aggressive and do crippling damage where they wont even need infestor/BL to finish off the opponent later.
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On August 08 2012 13:08 Ktk wrote:
Mutalisk play like drg?
200 roach max at 12?
There are a few ways to. You don't hace as many options as protoss but they're there.
Mutalisk play have a lot of flaws, hence why it never been really standard
Stephano roach max has been figured out and he's pretty much the only one managing to be solid with it
Also, lategame situation can be reversed, P can go skytoss, and if he get to that point zerg have to rely on protoss not splitting and getting fungaled to death
Except that Protoss do not NEED to get to that point and do not WANT to take that risk
Also, ZvP is a 49-51 matchup right now, P favored in KR, Z favored outside. Apart from the terrible design of that matchup I do not see any need to balance
ZvT on the other hand might need some tweaking, but mostly on the early game state. Probably a band-aid reaper buff until HOTS come out would be good, or a queen range revert to 4
I really dont see the point of people trying to shove every stupid change that go through their mind, like deleting fungal or buffing medivacs by 500%
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On August 08 2012 13:08 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 12:39 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 12:00 uzushould wrote:
first of all they should make fungal hit the zergs own units too, so they can not fungle on top of marines fighting with zerglings without hiting their own units....
i mean wtf, every aoe spell in this fucking game hits the own units too and so requires carefull use, but not zerg aoe....why? One could argue that this is because zerg has so much melee units, but thats just as big as the problem as terra has when zerglings attack marines and siegetanks shoot them.....fungle should defenitely dmg zergs units as well......
and i think the larva limitation on hatches would be a great thing.....its kinda unfair that zerg basicly needs no infrastructure besides 1-2 makro hatch and extra queens in addition to their expansion and have almost unlimited production capabilitly, while terra or toss needs up to 20 gates plus 2-3 robos/factorys + 3 starports + addons, makes all in all at least 3k minerals 700 gas on production facilitys which the zerg just doesn t needs and can directly invest into static defense or army
as well i think burrow is way too strong.....its so cheap but you can do so many things with it, like saving your infestors, do sneaky attacks with infestors or roaches, block expansion, burrow lings all over the map to have vision, burrow baneling bombs.....just too strong for so less money and all the terra can do is get a raven with allready costs more then the burrow upgrade itself or scan 10231209 times..........they should make it that you have to research burrow for each unit you want to use it..... As much as I feel your frustration in your TvZ, that sounds overkill. Increasing burrow cost to 150 150 sounds more realistic option if we were to nerf it. If T/P never complain agiain about fungal with addition of friendly fire, then I think Zerg can take it. With introduction of friendly fire, nothing changes for the scenario where your 20 marines are chain fungaled to death. I seriously doubt T/P would be satisfied solely with friendly fire. Problem seems to lie elsewhere. might be extremely overpowered but a good solution to fungal could be to allow medivacs to shoot out 5 healing lines instead of 1 healing line at a time (but make the lines invisible so it doesnt clutter the screen), and allow individual units the ability to suck up infinite amounts of healing lines (but a medivac can only provide 5 lines to 5 seperate units, so 20 medivacs could provide 20 lines each to 5 marines but not 100 lines to 1 marine. medivacs would still need to spend normal energy on healing, so 5lines running would deplete energy 5x as fast increasing their healing power by 500%, but moreso considering marines can take multiple lines, so really is almost like a healing power increase of 2500+%. Also add in smart-casting so theres no energy wasted. so now 20 marines with 20 medivacs, the marines would have like ungodly levels of healing strength and nothing but banelings could kill them. might be extremely overpowered tho.... could be a big problem in tvp too
That...........is OP
Some medivac/fungal trivia here:
Medivac outheals fungal damage any day of the week as it is.
So, 10 medivac = 10 marines are guaranteed to survive chain fungal growths until medivac energy depeletes. With enough energy, 20 chain fungal cannot kill 10 marines with 10 medivacs healing behind.
Personal girlfriend is always nice thing to have 
Not enough Zerg players practice fungal growth timing to chain well. Fungal growth actually has 16 ticks within 4 seconds. Each tick does 1.875 damage, 2.500 damage vs armored. In order to kill maximum number of marines, you need to hit 2nd fungal after 14th tick yet not so long after 16th tick. If you hit it before 14th tick, then marines don't die from 2nd fungal because 1.875*13 +30=54.375<55 combat shield marine health. If you hit it too late, then medivac finish healing its first target and switch to 2nd target so that 2 marines/medivac survive instead of inevitable 1 marine/medivac. Practice, and always try to hit after 14th tick. Hitting 15th tick seems optimal for the following reason.
Medivac has 150 health, so it takes 150/2.5 vs armor =60 ticks to kill it. Therefore 60/4 fungals =15 tick per fungal is needed not to waste 5th fungal for medivacs. For medivac, however, you can make up for the lost damage with your later fungals.
The required timing between 14th tick to right after 16th tick before medivac's second heal is about 0.6-0.7 blizzard in game seconds by my estimate. It took me about 2 hours to hit this timing 100% of the time in unit tester. In real game, I still miss the timing often. People overlook this in ZvT. Missing that timing means that you waste energy to fungal 3 times instead of 2 times vs marines, and those 10-40 marines that should have been dead survive for about 3 more seconds to do all the DPS.
Well, I don't know what my point was. Maybe I should just go make a thread about fungal growth mechanics. At least, I provided little known fact about fungal when fungal balance is the hot topic here...
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Hi guys
Please dont get this wrong - I never want to start a balance discussion, and there is no HOTS general discussion thread, and I only simply want to know one thing and one thing only.
Yes, HOTS hasnt come out yet, but apparently with all these fellow terrans tears, in HOTs mech will be more viable to use. Does this mean bio will simply die? All I am looking here is an opinion, please do not misunderstand. I just hope that HOTS will make mech viable but does not mean will kill bio right? I just absolutely love the playstyle of bio, micro macro intensive, drop here everywhere, split vs fungal and storm, etc.
That is all, Thank you everyone.
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On August 08 2012 12:00 uzushould wrote:
first of all they should make fungal hit the zergs own units too, so they can not fungle on top of marines fighting with zerglings without hiting their own units....
i mean wtf, every aoe spell in this fucking game hits the own units too and so requires carefull use, but not zerg aoe....why?
AoE that doesn't hit your own units: Hellions, Banelings, Infestor(Fungal), Ultralisks, Colossus. It's not exactly exclusive to Zerg though there are no Zerg AoE that hits their own units.
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On August 08 2012 14:37 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 12:00 uzushould wrote:
first of all they should make fungal hit the zergs own units too, so they can not fungle on top of marines fighting with zerglings without hiting their own units....
i mean wtf, every aoe spell in this fucking game hits the own units too and so requires carefull use, but not zerg aoe....why? AoE that doesn't hit your own units: Hellions, Banelings, Infestor(Fungal), Ultralisks, Colossus. It's not exactly exclusive to Zerg though there are no Zerg AoE that hits their own units.
and Archon and Thor air attack.
He said every aoe spell, though. Not that I support his view, but storm and nuke/EMP do friendly damage unlike fungal.
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EMP doing "friendly damage" isn't really an issue though, is it?
(I'm not saying you said it was.)
Besides, you might as well complain about about Stalkers and Hydras not having that instant-shot marines have, or whatever else is different between the races. E.g. how come Zerg doesn't have a spell that drains energy like feedback or EMP?
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EPT
