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On August 08 2012 23:20 Lagcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 09:45 dde wrote:On August 08 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas. These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out. The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting. Queen change to 4 would be great. broodlord itself is not rly that strong. I think 4 supply is good. Infestor nerf (probably aoe nerf) and limitation on larvaes on hatchery alone would be enough nerf for zergs. As Terran, I think the radius for scan should be reduced. It's radius is almost twice as much as its animation.
Interesting idea.
Is vision revealing range of scan actually same as detection range currently?
If I am not mistaken, turret/spore/cannon have longer detection range than their vision range.
Also, I heard somewhere that raven/overseer/observer detection range are also longer than their vision range.
It those are the cases, then one way to nerf scan slightly without affecting the defense vs cloaked units would be limiting vision revealing range slightly yet keep detection range as it is just like other means of detection.
I am not quite sure if vision range < detection range for everything but scan. Can someone actually confirm the relationship between vision range and detection range for all those units/structures/scan with evidence? That would be nice.
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On August 08 2012 22:45 Orek wrote:
So, looking at this page's discussion, I wonder if some people want single race mirror match only game.
"Your race has X. My race doesn't have X. X is good. My race's counterpart should be like X." logic fails so hard. Then, you just need to go play a RTS that has a single race to play.
Can we just focus on balance issue itself rather than trying to simply point out what 1 race has or doesn't have? We are playing an asymmetrically balanced game, or at least tried to be balanced asymmetrically. Your race cannot have all abilities available in game.
I think it was originally about the idea to make fungal growth do friendly damage. Suggesting or approving it JUST BECAUSE storm or HSM do friendly damage goes nowhere because we are playing different races with different units. The real question is "would the change balance the current situation for the better?"
In chain fungal scenarios, friendly fire means nothing as there are no Zerg units approaching the targets. There has to be another aspect of fungal growth that is more problematic.
Fungal Growth is problematic because there is literally no downsides to the spell. It does pretty good damage, it roots, and it has good range and AoE. That's the issue with the spell itself (and the Infestor in general; both are too good all around). Of course the bigger issue is that Z units suck so much that without the Infestor crutch Z would likely get walked over by both Terran and Protoss midgame pushes.
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Like it, but to be fair the creep nerf is hardly worth mentioning.
In most cases you either lack vision or the creep hasnt grown fully to use the whole range of 10, so it doesnt really matter. But I could imagine that it matters in the earlygame as you probably need more tumors to connect bases.
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It is neither creep range nor raven speed that is the most significant thing in this balance testing.
It is the "Queen will stay 5 range forever" hidden(?) message from Blizzard that is the most important content you take away from the post.
If I were to write summary of the Blizzard post, that would be it.
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dont know how game changing is a 0.25 ms boost, but thank god finally creep nerf
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I like the changes, it's like Blizzard read my mind.
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Who honestly thought warpgate was good idea? ZvP is devolving into 9-13 minutes of "Did you find the pylon?". I'm not arguing its imbalanced because you can obviously win against it, it just leads to terrible games to watch and even more boring to play.
I just wish protoss players actually had to make choices between gateways and warpgates, this game is getting INCREDIBLY stale.
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On August 09 2012 11:00 BandonBanshee wrote:
Who honestly thought warpgate was good idea? ZvP is devolving into 9-13 minutes of "Did you find the pylon?". I'm not arguing its imbalanced because you can obviously win against it, it just leads to terrible games to watch and even more boring to play.
I just wish protoss players actually had to make choices between gateways and warpgates, this game is getting INCREDIBLY stale.
Yeah, I've always thought it was incredibly bizarre how there's a transform back to gateway button. I would never say that Warp Gates need a straight nerf, without a huge, huge redesign of a ton of units, but it just seems like Gateways should have some kind of use!
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On August 09 2012 11:00 BandonBanshee wrote:
Who honestly thought warpgate was good idea? ZvP is devolving into 9-13 minutes of "Did you find the pylon?". I'm not arguing its imbalanced because you can obviously win against it, it just leads to terrible games to watch and even more boring to play.
I just wish protoss players actually had to make choices between gateways and warpgates, this game is getting INCREDIBLY stale.
PvZ in a nutshell:
Either all-in or really lame and unexciting turtle fest until lategame then it becomes Archon Toilet vs BL/Infestor.
So basically nothing about it is fun.
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On August 09 2012 11:00 BandonBanshee wrote:
Who honestly thought warpgate was good idea? ZvP is devolving into 9-13 minutes of "Did you find the pylon?". I'm not arguing its imbalanced because you can obviously win against it, it just leads to terrible games to watch and even more boring to play.
I just wish protoss players actually had to make choices between gateways and warpgates, this game is getting INCREDIBLY stale.
Problem with warpgate mechanics is that due to extremely short reinforcement distance, "defender's advantage" gets completely negated by it. As long as 1pylon or 1 warpprism is established close to enemy base, then the distance from your base beocomes irrelevant.
Also, it is the only mechanics that does pre-production cooldown. At 200/200 scenario, your production time is already done for warpgates. It only takes 5 seconds to produce warpgate units because those are already "produced."
Having said that, I don't think any fundamental change is needed for warpgate mechanics in SC2. Things are designed and played around it for a long time. Tweak might be necessary, but overhaul leads to entire redesign of Protoss race, which I don't consider healthy at this point of the game state even as non-Protoss player.
I think Blizzard learned lesson already. Starcraft 3 won't probably include warpgate mechanics anyways. Balancing around something that negates defender's advantage must have been tough work for Blizzard. I would be surprised if warpgate stayed in Starcraft 3.
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On August 09 2012 11:39 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 11:00 BandonBanshee wrote:
Who honestly thought warpgate was good idea? ZvP is devolving into 9-13 minutes of "Did you find the pylon?". I'm not arguing its imbalanced because you can obviously win against it, it just leads to terrible games to watch and even more boring to play.
I just wish protoss players actually had to make choices between gateways and warpgates, this game is getting INCREDIBLY stale. Problem with warpgate mechanics is that due to extremely short reinforcement distance, "defender's advantage" gets completely negated by it. As long as 1pylon or 1 warpprism is established close to enemy base, then the distance from your base beocomes irrelevant. Also, it is the only mechanics that does pre-production cooldown. At 200/200 scenario, your production time is already done for warpgates. It only takes 5 seconds to produce warpgate units because those are already "produced." Having said that, I don't think any fundamental change is needed for warpgate mechanics in SC2. Things are designed and played around it for a long time. Tweak might be necessary, but overhaul leads to entire redesign of Protoss race, which I don't consider healthy at this point of the game state even as non-Protoss player. I think Blizzard learned lesson already. Starcraft 3 won't probably include warpgate mechanics anyways. Balancing around something that negates defender's advantage must have been tough work for Blizzard. I would be surprised if warpgate stayed in Starcraft 3.
Lol Starcraft 3? Okay see everyone in 10+ years when Blizzard has learned from their mistake. They really need to make gateways somewhat viable, it's just so bad to not make Real choices.
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Taeja is going to get Terran nerfed again :D . He really showed the power of the lategame Mule yesterday. You can always have a much larger army than your opponent and Terran already has the most cost effective units. Not to mention the mule keeps Terran in games that other races would have lost. Talking about TvP BTW.
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On August 13 2012 07:19 Havik_ wrote:
Taeja is going to get Terran nerfed again :D . He really showed the power of the lategame Mule yesterday. You can always have a much larger army than your opponent and Terran already has the most cost effective units. Not to mention the mule keeps Terran in games that other races would have lost. Talking about TvP BTW.
No. Taeja outplayed everyone he beat yesterday. Has nothing to do with MULEs being overpowered, or whatever. Seed and Taeja played very close games, as did Yonghwa and Taeja. Protoss is fine against Terran.
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On August 13 2012 07:19 Havik_ wrote:
Taeja is going to get Terran nerfed again :D . He really showed the power of the lategame Mule yesterday. You can always have a much larger army than your opponent and Terran already has the most cost effective units. Not to mention the mule keeps Terran in games that other races would have lost. Talking about TvP BTW.
Oops. You just broke 4 day silence in this thread.
Peace treaty expired. Now, war begins again.
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On August 09 2012 11:07 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 11:00 BandonBanshee wrote:
Who honestly thought warpgate was good idea? ZvP is devolving into 9-13 minutes of "Did you find the pylon?". I'm not arguing its imbalanced because you can obviously win against it, it just leads to terrible games to watch and even more boring to play.
I just wish protoss players actually had to make choices between gateways and warpgates, this game is getting INCREDIBLY stale. Yeah, I've always thought it was incredibly bizarre how there's a transform back to gateway button. I would never say that Warp Gates need a straight nerf, without a huge, huge redesign of a ton of units, but it just seems like Gateways should have some kind of use!
The fundamental design concept of Warp Gates creates a massive problem for Protoss.
At the core of its philosophy, the Protoss race is supposed to be few but strong. However, if you can warp in strong units across the map in no time at all, then obviously the race is going to be stupidly overpowered. Just think if Dragoons and fast Zealots from BW were able to be warped in across the map. This has forced Blizzard to heavily nerf individual Protoss units, but to keep the race as a whole powerful enough, these units synergize very well together. This all culminates in an incredibly boring race that can only fight in a deathball; we're seeing T and Z split their armies more in matchups that don't involve P, but any matchup with P just results in massive deathballs and boring games. It all just goes straight back to the Warp Gate; it's a fantastic idea that's really cool, but it's an absolute disaster for balance.
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On August 09 2012 06:00 monkybone wrote:
Great creep nerf. The TvZ metagame will remain unaffected though.
The nerf to creep isn't all that great.
But I do agree with you, TvZ will pretty much stay the same.
Making the Raven slightly faster is 'like re-coloring the eyes of a Queen to green and calling it a balance patch."
Day9 went over the timings on getting a Raven out that affrects medivac and Siege.
Not to mention how extremely expensive it is for the Raven upgrades plus the time it takes to upgrade.
If the Raven is meant to creep control, a scan works better.
PDD is probably the only reason to get a Raven (except PDD doesn't hit Broodlings). Seeker missles are expensive as hell, slow (still out runnable), and it takes what? 3 or 4 missles to kill a BL? Forget about killing Corruptors, aka flying-castle-with-mesolithic-armor.
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On August 13 2012 07:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 11:07 LavaLava wrote:On August 09 2012 11:00 BandonBanshee wrote:
Who honestly thought warpgate was good idea? ZvP is devolving into 9-13 minutes of "Did you find the pylon?". I'm not arguing its imbalanced because you can obviously win against it, it just leads to terrible games to watch and even more boring to play.
I just wish protoss players actually had to make choices between gateways and warpgates, this game is getting INCREDIBLY stale. Yeah, I've always thought it was incredibly bizarre how there's a transform back to gateway button. I would never say that Warp Gates need a straight nerf, without a huge, huge redesign of a ton of units, but it just seems like Gateways should have some kind of use! The fundamental design concept of Warp Gates creates a massive problem for Protoss. At the core of its philosophy, the Protoss race is supposed to be few but strong. However, if you can warp in strong units across the map in no time at all, then obviously the race is going to be stupidly overpowered. Just think if Dragoons and fast Zealots from BW were able to be warped in across the map. This has forced Blizzard to heavily nerf individual Protoss units, but to keep the race as a whole powerful enough, these units synergize very well together. This all culminates in an incredibly boring race that can only fight in a deathball; we're seeing T and Z split their armies more in matchups that don't involve P, but any matchup with P just results in massive deathballs and boring games. It all just goes straight back to the Warp Gate; it's a fantastic idea that's really cool, but it's an absolute disaster for balance.
I have to agree. Warp gate is cool, but to balance it, you end up with underpowered glass cannons that don't fit the race.
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EPT
