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On September 27 2011 17:41 Cloudster wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that two or more well placed storms rip Terran bio apart (which is what it was designed for of course) so Terran have EMP which has better range to avoid being pwned to pieces by a couple of storms.
Everything seems pretty balanced to me, high risk with high reward.
Sadly the numbers do not support your theory. Also with the exception of zealots, emp does equal damage to storm to Protoss units, instantly. Storm does damage over 4 in game seconds. So the argument that if HTs where faster terrans would auto lose is kinda silly.
There could be a good reason HTs are slow, but right now Protoss are getting crushed in the GSL and Korea in general. Some tweaks are likely needed.
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On September 27 2011 18:57 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 18:22 pezit wrote:On September 27 2011 18:02 Elean wrote:On September 27 2011 15:41 pezit wrote:On September 27 2011 11:37 Elean wrote:On September 27 2011 04:57 freetgy wrote:On September 26 2011 21:40 Elean wrote:
Corruptors melt against void rays.
corruptors don't suck they are the most costeffective unit air2air, and also beat every Air Unit minimum 1:1 ressource wise And to prove your argument wrong, corrupters trade 1:1 ressource wise if you put equal ressources in both Corruptor / Voidray, which obviously contradicts that corruptor "melt" to Voidrays. (if you know how to micro corruption spell properly, which most zerg obviously don't) http://www.youtube.com/user/Magiccube100#p/a/u/1/Ml-Iv43xXvc You really need to take some math lessons on your 1:1 ressources wise. The limiting ressources is gas. You are comparing a 1k gas army against a 750g and a 900g army. I just did the same test with 900 gas void rays, against 900g corruptors. At the end 2 (out of 6) void rays survives with only shield damage. You want the replay ? You are also looking at armies on A-move, with no focus fire. Once you stat focus firing, corruptors will overkill more. You forget that protoss has no excuse for not being ahead in upgrades, they can have +1 before the spire is even completed. The army size chosen is greatly favorable to void rays, in larger number the overkill of corruptors will hurt more, in smaller numbesr voids rays will charge. Corruptors are a AA only unit, and they are not cost efficient against void rays. And yes they melt against void rays. Mutas kill void rays, corruptors kill carriers, phoenix and colossus. If corruptors were cost effective versus void rays as well zerg could shut down all air play with one unit, that isn't a very good idea is it? Void rays are cost effective against muta. The only reason muta are good against voids rays is because they are faster and faster to build. But 6 void rays beat 11 muta. Many people still think muta counter void rays because they remember when void rays had 3 charges. Corruptors don't shut down phoenix, they simply are not fast enough. All they can do is keep them away, which is almost useless since there should be spore/queens. I don't think the game would be broken if corruptors alone could secure air supremacy against protoss. You don't need air supremacy to win the game. If zerg build mass corruptors, protoss can just counter it by making ground units. But the point is not what would happen if corruptors could get air supremacy against protoss. The point is they don't, and as they are now they are the worst unit of the game. Their only usefullness is against colossus or for broodlords. And on top of that, they are not enough to deal with colossi unless you do an overkill (which is generally an auto-loose because you end up with useless corruptors). No 6 void rays doesn't even beat 11 mutas with no micro, with micro the mutas will win even more since they can snipe one at a time with no charging up for the voids. You know I tested it just before posting ? If both players a-move, muta sometimes win. If both players focus fire, the voids rays always win.
What the... I didn't test it because I felt fairly sure about it but after you said you had tried it i had to as well. And now after doing just that you're still wrong, i don't know if you're miscontrolling the mutas or something but the mutas will win every time if you focus fire with both groups. Now I will say it's fairly close so saying that mutas counters voids is a bit of an overstatement, I guess the proper "counter" would be hydralisks, but mutas does alright as well.
Edit: Vikings does beat everything that flies though, even more so when you take into account that you can snipe stuff and then back off.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Edit: Vikings does beat everything that flies though, even more so when you take into account that you can snipe stuff and then back off.
I highly disagree, vikings are too slow to outrun mutas. This is just from my personal experience, but I've never seen vikings beat mutas in a straight up muta vs viking battle.
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On September 27 2011 19:18 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 18:57 Elean wrote:On September 27 2011 18:22 pezit wrote:On September 27 2011 18:02 Elean wrote:On September 27 2011 15:41 pezit wrote:On September 27 2011 11:37 Elean wrote:On September 27 2011 04:57 freetgy wrote:On September 26 2011 21:40 Elean wrote:
Corruptors melt against void rays.
corruptors don't suck they are the most costeffective unit air2air, and also beat every Air Unit minimum 1:1 ressource wise And to prove your argument wrong, corrupters trade 1:1 ressource wise if you put equal ressources in both Corruptor / Voidray, which obviously contradicts that corruptor "melt" to Voidrays. (if you know how to micro corruption spell properly, which most zerg obviously don't) http://www.youtube.com/user/Magiccube100#p/a/u/1/Ml-Iv43xXvc You really need to take some math lessons on your 1:1 ressources wise. The limiting ressources is gas. You are comparing a 1k gas army against a 750g and a 900g army. I just did the same test with 900 gas void rays, against 900g corruptors. At the end 2 (out of 6) void rays survives with only shield damage. You want the replay ? You are also looking at armies on A-move, with no focus fire. Once you stat focus firing, corruptors will overkill more. You forget that protoss has no excuse for not being ahead in upgrades, they can have +1 before the spire is even completed. The army size chosen is greatly favorable to void rays, in larger number the overkill of corruptors will hurt more, in smaller numbesr voids rays will charge. Corruptors are a AA only unit, and they are not cost efficient against void rays. And yes they melt against void rays. Mutas kill void rays, corruptors kill carriers, phoenix and colossus. If corruptors were cost effective versus void rays as well zerg could shut down all air play with one unit, that isn't a very good idea is it? Void rays are cost effective against muta. The only reason muta are good against voids rays is because they are faster and faster to build. But 6 void rays beat 11 muta. Many people still think muta counter void rays because they remember when void rays had 3 charges. Corruptors don't shut down phoenix, they simply are not fast enough. All they can do is keep them away, which is almost useless since there should be spore/queens. I don't think the game would be broken if corruptors alone could secure air supremacy against protoss. You don't need air supremacy to win the game. If zerg build mass corruptors, protoss can just counter it by making ground units. But the point is not what would happen if corruptors could get air supremacy against protoss. The point is they don't, and as they are now they are the worst unit of the game. Their only usefullness is against colossus or for broodlords. And on top of that, they are not enough to deal with colossi unless you do an overkill (which is generally an auto-loose because you end up with useless corruptors). No 6 void rays doesn't even beat 11 mutas with no micro, with micro the mutas will win even more since they can snipe one at a time with no charging up for the voids. You know I tested it just before posting ? If both players a-move, muta sometimes win. If both players focus fire, the voids rays always win. What the... I didn't test it because I felt fairly sure about it but after you said you had tried it i had to as well. And now after doing just that you're still wrong, i don't know if you're miscontrolling the mutas or something but the mutas will win every time if you focus fire with both groups. Now I will say it's fairly close so saying that mutas counters voids is a bit of an overstatement, I guess the proper "counter" would be hydralisks, but mutas does alright as well. Edit: Vikings does beat everything that flies though, even more so when you take into account that you can snipe stuff and then back off.
There is no miscrontrol, no micro involved, just shift+click all the units. And yeah 6 voids vs 11 muta is close, which means voids are cost effecient against muta (they trade evenly).
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On September 27 2011 19:45 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Edit: Vikings does beat everything that flies though, even more so when you take into account that you can snipe stuff and then back off. I highly disagree, vikings are too slow to outrun mutas. This is just from my personal experience, but I've never seen vikings beat mutas in a straight up muta vs viking battle.
Vikings beat mutas in similar numbers but marines are even stronger and save you the gas.
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So i have an idea about MULE.
Right now it seems like Z and P has to inject/chrono constantly or they won't be rewarded equaly in case of sloppiness.
If you forget your MULE as T, you can drop lots of them at once on 1 expo and mine it out in a heartbeat what in not only my but many pro players gives him advantage.
So the problem I see: MULE unlike chrono and inject is rewarding at all time.
Solution: MULE spell changed from energy costing to cooldown equal to 50 energy regen.
Also in this case I'd reduce CC's energy cap let's say to 100 so there won't be infinity of scans.
I think this COULD solve mass MULE mining.
Also if talking about CC, Supply drop should be removed from game, Pro's are rarely using this and it creates bad habit for lower players.
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On September 27 2011 19:50 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 19:18 pezit wrote:On September 27 2011 18:57 Elean wrote:On September 27 2011 18:22 pezit wrote:On September 27 2011 18:02 Elean wrote:On September 27 2011 15:41 pezit wrote:On September 27 2011 11:37 Elean wrote:On September 27 2011 04:57 freetgy wrote:On September 26 2011 21:40 Elean wrote:
Corruptors melt against void rays.
corruptors don't suck they are the most costeffective unit air2air, and also beat every Air Unit minimum 1:1 ressource wise And to prove your argument wrong, corrupters trade 1:1 ressource wise if you put equal ressources in both Corruptor / Voidray, which obviously contradicts that corruptor "melt" to Voidrays. (if you know how to micro corruption spell properly, which most zerg obviously don't) http://www.youtube.com/user/Magiccube100#p/a/u/1/Ml-Iv43xXvc You really need to take some math lessons on your 1:1 ressources wise. The limiting ressources is gas. You are comparing a 1k gas army against a 750g and a 900g army. I just did the same test with 900 gas void rays, against 900g corruptors. At the end 2 (out of 6) void rays survives with only shield damage. You want the replay ? You are also looking at armies on A-move, with no focus fire. Once you stat focus firing, corruptors will overkill more. You forget that protoss has no excuse for not being ahead in upgrades, they can have +1 before the spire is even completed. The army size chosen is greatly favorable to void rays, in larger number the overkill of corruptors will hurt more, in smaller numbesr voids rays will charge. Corruptors are a AA only unit, and they are not cost efficient against void rays. And yes they melt against void rays. Mutas kill void rays, corruptors kill carriers, phoenix and colossus. If corruptors were cost effective versus void rays as well zerg could shut down all air play with one unit, that isn't a very good idea is it? Void rays are cost effective against muta. The only reason muta are good against voids rays is because they are faster and faster to build. But 6 void rays beat 11 muta. Many people still think muta counter void rays because they remember when void rays had 3 charges. Corruptors don't shut down phoenix, they simply are not fast enough. All they can do is keep them away, which is almost useless since there should be spore/queens. I don't think the game would be broken if corruptors alone could secure air supremacy against protoss. You don't need air supremacy to win the game. If zerg build mass corruptors, protoss can just counter it by making ground units. But the point is not what would happen if corruptors could get air supremacy against protoss. The point is they don't, and as they are now they are the worst unit of the game. Their only usefullness is against colossus or for broodlords. And on top of that, they are not enough to deal with colossi unless you do an overkill (which is generally an auto-loose because you end up with useless corruptors). No 6 void rays doesn't even beat 11 mutas with no micro, with micro the mutas will win even more since they can snipe one at a time with no charging up for the voids. You know I tested it just before posting ? If both players a-move, muta sometimes win. If both players focus fire, the voids rays always win. What the... I didn't test it because I felt fairly sure about it but after you said you had tried it i had to as well. And now after doing just that you're still wrong, i don't know if you're miscontrolling the mutas or something but the mutas will win every time if you focus fire with both groups. Now I will say it's fairly close so saying that mutas counters voids is a bit of an overstatement, I guess the proper "counter" would be hydralisks, but mutas does alright as well. Edit: Vikings does beat everything that flies though, even more so when you take into account that you can snipe stuff and then back off. There is no miscrontrol, no micro involved, just shift+click all the units. And yeah 6 voids vs 11 muta is close, which means voids are cost effecient against muta (they trade evenly).
Anyway my point was that corruptors are fine, they do just fine versus carriers, phoenix and colossus. Corrupt is an extremely boring ability though and something else would be cool, but I see that more as a design thing and not balance.
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On September 27 2011 19:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 17:41 Cloudster wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that two or more well placed storms rip Terran bio apart (which is what it was designed for of course) so Terran have EMP which has better range to avoid being pwned to pieces by a couple of storms.
Everything seems pretty balanced to me, high risk with high reward. Sadly the numbers do not support your theory. Also with the exception of zealots, emp does equal damage to storm to Protoss units, instantly. Storm does damage over 4 in game seconds. So the argument that if HTs where faster terrans would auto lose is kinda silly. There could be a good reason HTs are slow, but right now Protoss are getting crushed in the GSL and Korea in general. Some tweaks are likely needed.
EMP cannot kill and does not stop damage from being applied to the Terran.
Yes, it is instant and 100 damage, but on Zealots, Sentries and Stalkers you aren't getting the full 100% out of it.
When a Storm lands, you have to move your Bio out of it.
They'll take anywhere from 20-80 damage and the time Bio is moving is equal to time they are not shooting back but are getting shot at.
Storm can directly kill a unit, whereas EMP cannot, meaning that Storm is very spammable, but EMP is not, after 2-3 spread out over the army it's mostly done and Protoss will still keep shooting.
Also keep in mind on what gets hits by these spells.
Zealots and Stalkers, even when hit by EMP can still participate just fine in the battle, especially Chargelots.
Marines/Marauders getting whacked by a Storm have to move out and will lose most of their HP before they can fire again.
Ghosts and EMP in TvP are very important in keeping the HTs and Storms to a manageable number.
Without them, Bio would likely vaporize to mass Storm carpets.
As it is far easier for Protoss to mass on HT (with Chargelots for example) than it is for Terran to mass up on Ghosts I feel the EMP vs Storm debate is hardly screaming that it needs a tweak.
On September 27 2011 20:06 kcbgoku wrote:
So i have an idea about MULE.
Right now it seems like Z and P has to inject/chrono constantly or they won't be rewarded equaly in case of sloppiness.
If you forget your MULE as T, you can drop lots of them at once on 1 expo and mine it out in a heartbeat what in not only my but many pro players gives him advantage.
So the problem I see: MULE unlike chrono and inject is rewarding at all time.
Solution: MULE spell changed from energy costing to cooldown equal to 50 energy regen.
Also in this case I'd reduce CC's energy cap let's say to 100 so there won't be infinity of scans.
I think this COULD solve mass MULE mining.
Every MULE Terran saves up is 270 minerals we didn't have earlier.
Furthermore, we have no way to boost our worker production like Protoss or Zerg.
If you Chrono out a Probe or you get an additional Drone, that worker will benefit you for the entire game. Each additional worker does the same.
For each MULE Terran misses, the economy gap grows.
Nexii have 100 energy because their spells cost 25 energy (max 4 uses).
CCs have 200 energy because their spells cost 50 energy (max 4 uses).
Queen Larva inject costs 25 energy.
The CC takes twice as long to regenerate enough energy for a spell than a Queen or Nexus.
Mass MULEing is actually bad for Terran because we suddenly get a huge amount of minerals for short time, but it isn't sustainable so adding additional production facilities would leave us starved later on when the MULEs die.
Mass scan is nothing bad either, keep in mind each scan is a MULE we don't have.
All it does is detect and show a piece of the map, in the lategame when detectors are out and about the use of mass scan is reduced significantly.
Supply drop is used enough to keep it, some even incorporate into their build because it grants an instant 100 minerals you don't have to spend, usually allowing for an even faster CC.
Just because something isn't used a lot doesn't mean it should be removed.
I often see in many many Protoss matches that multiple Nexii are at 100 energy.
Imagine the army or probe production (or upgrade advantage) if all of that was constantly used.
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On September 27 2011 10:28 -y0shi- wrote:
Isnt getting 7 vikings just to prevent further colossi production / snipe prisms worth it on its own? Even if you have 7 useless vikings after a battle, theyre not useless as they shut down the entire techtree of protoss. And the MMMG army is so strong that the missing supply shouldnt even matter that much since they now counter everything else that could come.
Those 7+ vikings mean you lack the crucial medivac count needed to support a pure bio army whereas the protoss has a jacked up gateway army that will rip you apart. Medivacs make a massive difference.
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BALANCE THE 1 1 1!! Banshee with cloac is a big JOKE,
everytime terran does this i cannot win, you expand as a usual toss would, put out a 6 gate to defend 1 1 1 push (all the variations are so crazy) you just need aloooooot of units to deal with it,
so what happens? you send 1 observer to his base and you get cloak banshee in yours,
so i have to send 1 obs to know whats coming and keep1 in each base jus to be safe, thats 3, wich will all die to the push with banshee rave viking marine tank ty
User was warned for this post
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On September 27 2011 20:29 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 19:14 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2011 17:41 Cloudster wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that two or more well placed storms rip Terran bio apart (which is what it was designed for of course) so Terran have EMP which has better range to avoid being pwned to pieces by a couple of storms.
Everything seems pretty balanced to me, high risk with high reward. Sadly the numbers do not support your theory. Also with the exception of zealots, emp does equal damage to storm to Protoss units, instantly. Storm does damage over 4 in game seconds. So the argument that if HTs where faster terrans would auto lose is kinda silly. There could be a good reason HTs are slow, but right now Protoss are getting crushed in the GSL and Korea in general. Some tweaks are likely needed. EMP cannot kill and does not stop damage from being applied to the Terran. Yes, it is instant and 100 damage, but on Zealots, Sentries and Stalkers you aren't getting the full 100% out of it. When a Storm lands, you have to move your Bio out of it. They'll take anywhere from 20-80 damage and the time Bio is moving is equal to time they are not shooting back but are getting shot at. Storm can directly kill a unit, whereas EMP cannot, meaning that Storm is very spammable, but EMP is not, after 2-3 spread out over the army it's mostly done and Protoss will still keep shooting. Also keep in mind on what gets hits by these spells. Zealots and Stalkers, even when hit by EMP can still participate just fine in the battle, especially Chargelots. Marines/Marauders getting whacked by a Storm have to move out and will lose most of their HP before they can fire again. Ghosts and EMP in TvP are very important in keeping the HTs and Storms to a manageable number. Without them, Bio would likely vaporize to mass Storm carpets. As it is far easier for Protoss to mass on HT (with Chargelots for example) than it is for Terran to mass up on Ghosts I feel the EMP vs Storm debate is hardly screaming that it needs a tweak.
1. EMP doesn't need to kill- it does plenty of damage as is. It already had to be nerfed once because it did too much damage. There's no guarantee they got the amount right yet.
2. Of course you have to move your units during a battle. It's called micro. Both players should be doing this. Unfortunately, Protoss don't get the luxury of moving out of the way of an EMP because those are instantaneous.
3. Storm and EMP are just as spammable. Keep in mind that Storm doesn't stack, so they need to be spread out anyway. Also, since Storm is damage over a decently long period of time, moving your infantry back just a tiny bit negates a large portion of the entire spell.
4. Ghosts directly counter high templar, not the other way around. They also counter archons. It's also the case that ghosts are all-around more useful with their other spells (snipe, cloak, nuke). They're also faster and have longer range. They're also lower tech. Feedback can't reach ghosts before ghosts kill them.
High templar is what some Protoss try to make to counter a traditional bio ball (if they don't want to deal with the colossi vs. viking struggle). But it's effective mostly if the Terran doesn't use ghosts.
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On September 27 2011 21:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 20:29 Thezzy wrote:On September 27 2011 19:14 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2011 17:41 Cloudster wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that two or more well placed storms rip Terran bio apart (which is what it was designed for of course) so Terran have EMP which has better range to avoid being pwned to pieces by a couple of storms.
Everything seems pretty balanced to me, high risk with high reward. Sadly the numbers do not support your theory. Also with the exception of zealots, emp does equal damage to storm to Protoss units, instantly. Storm does damage over 4 in game seconds. So the argument that if HTs where faster terrans would auto lose is kinda silly. There could be a good reason HTs are slow, but right now Protoss are getting crushed in the GSL and Korea in general. Some tweaks are likely needed. EMP cannot kill and does not stop damage from being applied to the Terran. Yes, it is instant and 100 damage, but on Zealots, Sentries and Stalkers you aren't getting the full 100% out of it. When a Storm lands, you have to move your Bio out of it. They'll take anywhere from 20-80 damage and the time Bio is moving is equal to time they are not shooting back but are getting shot at. Storm can directly kill a unit, whereas EMP cannot, meaning that Storm is very spammable, but EMP is not, after 2-3 spread out over the army it's mostly done and Protoss will still keep shooting. Also keep in mind on what gets hits by these spells. Zealots and Stalkers, even when hit by EMP can still participate just fine in the battle, especially Chargelots. Marines/Marauders getting whacked by a Storm have to move out and will lose most of their HP before they can fire again. Ghosts and EMP in TvP are very important in keeping the HTs and Storms to a manageable number. Without them, Bio would likely vaporize to mass Storm carpets. As it is far easier for Protoss to mass on HT (with Chargelots for example) than it is for Terran to mass up on Ghosts I feel the EMP vs Storm debate is hardly screaming that it needs a tweak. 1. EMP doesn't need to kill- it does plenty of damage as is. It already had to be nerfed once because it did too much damage. There's no guarantee they got the amount right yet. 2. Of course you have to move your units during a battle. It's called micro. Both players should be doing this. Unfortunately, Protoss don't get the luxury of moving out of the way of an EMP because those are instantaneous. 3. Storm and EMP are just as spammable. Keep in mind that Storm doesn't stack, so they need to be spread out anyway. Also, since Storm is damage over a decently long period of time, moving your infantry back just a tiny bit negates a large portion of the entire spell. 4. Ghosts directly counter high templar, not the other way around. They also counter archons. It's also the case that ghosts are all-around more useful with their other spells (snipe, cloak, nuke). They're also faster and have longer range. They're also lower tech. Feedback can't reach ghosts before ghosts kill them. High templar is what some Protoss try to make to counter a traditional bio ball (if they don't want to deal with the colossi vs. viking struggle). But it's effective mostly if the Terran doesn't use ghosts.
Most of what you say may be right, however, high templar can also feedback medivacs making them virtually useless and/or destroying them outright providing a significant advantage for protoss.
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i think one big problem in this game is DINAMIC PATHING....
in this game E SPORTS GAME you should be able to SPREED your unites and move to atc your oponent with spreed comoposition of unites...
not yust to spreed unites when you difending but also when atc .... then EMP and FUNGEL and TS would be less efective....
problem with this game i see also in less of micro intesive play...
spells that are now problem that ruining MICRO is Force Fealds and Fungel... Pro ppl use FF almosut like Low lvl player simply you dont need eny skill to do that...
look at like this Tunder stom is great spell it require skill too use it FF its almoust the same for pro PPL and LOW lvl ppl....
so my conclusion in this game Force Fealds need to go out also fungel Dinamic pathing should have option like in WC3 to turn OFF.... to spreed your unites not yust when you DIF but also when ATC... Also A move untes need to go out ....
that should be done to have bether multiplayer and bether Esport....game....
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On September 27 2011 21:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 20:29 Thezzy wrote:On September 27 2011 19:14 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2011 17:41 Cloudster wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that two or more well placed storms rip Terran bio apart (which is what it was designed for of course) so Terran have EMP which has better range to avoid being pwned to pieces by a couple of storms.
Everything seems pretty balanced to me, high risk with high reward. Sadly the numbers do not support your theory. Also with the exception of zealots, emp does equal damage to storm to Protoss units, instantly. Storm does damage over 4 in game seconds. So the argument that if HTs where faster terrans would auto lose is kinda silly. There could be a good reason HTs are slow, but right now Protoss are getting crushed in the GSL and Korea in general. Some tweaks are likely needed. EMP cannot kill and does not stop damage from being applied to the Terran. Yes, it is instant and 100 damage, but on Zealots, Sentries and Stalkers you aren't getting the full 100% out of it. When a Storm lands, you have to move your Bio out of it. They'll take anywhere from 20-80 damage and the time Bio is moving is equal to time they are not shooting back but are getting shot at. Storm can directly kill a unit, whereas EMP cannot, meaning that Storm is very spammable, but EMP is not, after 2-3 spread out over the army it's mostly done and Protoss will still keep shooting. Also keep in mind on what gets hits by these spells. Zealots and Stalkers, even when hit by EMP can still participate just fine in the battle, especially Chargelots. Marines/Marauders getting whacked by a Storm have to move out and will lose most of their HP before they can fire again. Ghosts and EMP in TvP are very important in keeping the HTs and Storms to a manageable number. Without them, Bio would likely vaporize to mass Storm carpets. As it is far easier for Protoss to mass on HT (with Chargelots for example) than it is for Terran to mass up on Ghosts I feel the EMP vs Storm debate is hardly screaming that it needs a tweak. 1. EMP doesn't need to kill- it does plenty of damage as is. It already had to be nerfed once because it did too much damage. There's no guarantee they got the amount right yet. 2. Of course you have to move your units during a battle. It's called micro. Both players should be doing this. Unfortunately, Protoss don't get the luxury of moving out of the way of an EMP because those are instantaneous. 3. Storm and EMP are just as spammable. Keep in mind that Storm doesn't stack, so they need to be spread out anyway. Also, since Storm is damage over a decently long period of time, moving your infantry back just a tiny bit negates a large portion of the entire spell. 4. Ghosts directly counter high templar, not the other way around. They also counter archons. It's also the case that ghosts are all-around more useful with their other spells (snipe, cloak, nuke). They're also faster and have longer range. They're also lower tech. Feedback can't reach ghosts before ghosts kill them. High templar is what some Protoss try to make to counter a traditional bio ball (if they don't want to deal with the colossi vs. viking struggle). But it's effective mostly if the Terran doesn't use ghosts.
1. Whether or not 100 shields (it did 100% in BW) is good or bad is something too open to debate to really make a statement. Racial bias will always come into this. The fact it does not kill is a big difference from being able to kill. If it could kill, it would be hugely overpowered even if it did 50 damage so it definitely matters.
2. Protoss doesn't have to move once EMPed, the micro against the spell itself ends with splitting up your casters. Terran has to move constantly throughout the battle dodging Colossi beams, Chargelots, Forcefields on top of Storms. Not saying Protoss doesn't have to micro, but anti-EMP micro is very small vs anti-Storm micro.
3. How is EMP spammable against anything other than Archons and 200 energy casters?
Once the shields are down or the energy is low any additional EMPs do nothing to Protoss and only cost energy. Continual storms, even if they don't do full damage force Terran to keep moving the Bioball, not dealing any damage to Protoss.
4. Ghosts are not a counter to HT anymore than HT are a counter to Ghosts. Both can nullify the other with Snipe or Feedback. EMP can outrange Feedback, but Feedback can insta-nuke a Ghost. A HT without energy can form an Archon, a Ghost without energy can still shoot at Zealots.
The units cannot be compared in any direct way, all they share is that they both have an AoE and anti-caster ability.
As much as Protoss may need HT against Bio, Terran needs Ghosts to stay alive just as much.
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On September 27 2011 20:29 Thezzy wrote:
The CC takes twice as long to regenerate enough energy for a spell than a Queen or Nexus.
Mass MULEing is actually bad for Terran because we suddenly get a huge amount of minerals for short time, but it isn't sustainable so adding additional production facilities would leave us starved later on when the MULEs die.
This is what I hear from T players all the time, and I think P/Z players agree. Yes, late MULEs are lost opportunistic cost you could have earlier on. And you even go further and say that it's "actually bad" to mass MULE.
Then the solution should be simple, isn't it? Put cool down on mules so that every OC can only have 1 active mule at any given time. Mass Mule'ing is bad for T, anyway. (Remember, that's per your own words) P and Z players want to help with a sensible solution. I think you should welcome such a change with open arms.
Or maybe you're just a hypocrite/liar.
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On September 27 2011 21:56 _PulSe_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 21:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 27 2011 20:29 Thezzy wrote:On September 27 2011 19:14 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2011 17:41 Cloudster wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that two or more well placed storms rip Terran bio apart (which is what it was designed for of course) so Terran have EMP which has better range to avoid being pwned to pieces by a couple of storms.
Everything seems pretty balanced to me, high risk with high reward. Sadly the numbers do not support your theory. Also with the exception of zealots, emp does equal damage to storm to Protoss units, instantly. Storm does damage over 4 in game seconds. So the argument that if HTs where faster terrans would auto lose is kinda silly. There could be a good reason HTs are slow, but right now Protoss are getting crushed in the GSL and Korea in general. Some tweaks are likely needed. EMP cannot kill and does not stop damage from being applied to the Terran. Yes, it is instant and 100 damage, but on Zealots, Sentries and Stalkers you aren't getting the full 100% out of it. When a Storm lands, you have to move your Bio out of it. They'll take anywhere from 20-80 damage and the time Bio is moving is equal to time they are not shooting back but are getting shot at. Storm can directly kill a unit, whereas EMP cannot, meaning that Storm is very spammable, but EMP is not, after 2-3 spread out over the army it's mostly done and Protoss will still keep shooting. Also keep in mind on what gets hits by these spells. Zealots and Stalkers, even when hit by EMP can still participate just fine in the battle, especially Chargelots. Marines/Marauders getting whacked by a Storm have to move out and will lose most of their HP before they can fire again. Ghosts and EMP in TvP are very important in keeping the HTs and Storms to a manageable number. Without them, Bio would likely vaporize to mass Storm carpets. As it is far easier for Protoss to mass on HT (with Chargelots for example) than it is for Terran to mass up on Ghosts I feel the EMP vs Storm debate is hardly screaming that it needs a tweak. 1. EMP doesn't need to kill- it does plenty of damage as is. It already had to be nerfed once because it did too much damage. There's no guarantee they got the amount right yet. 2. Of course you have to move your units during a battle. It's called micro. Both players should be doing this. Unfortunately, Protoss don't get the luxury of moving out of the way of an EMP because those are instantaneous. 3. Storm and EMP are just as spammable. Keep in mind that Storm doesn't stack, so they need to be spread out anyway. Also, since Storm is damage over a decently long period of time, moving your infantry back just a tiny bit negates a large portion of the entire spell. 4. Ghosts directly counter high templar, not the other way around. They also counter archons. It's also the case that ghosts are all-around more useful with their other spells (snipe, cloak, nuke). They're also faster and have longer range. They're also lower tech. Feedback can't reach ghosts before ghosts kill them. High templar is what some Protoss try to make to counter a traditional bio ball (if they don't want to deal with the colossi vs. viking struggle). But it's effective mostly if the Terran doesn't use ghosts. Most of what you say may be right, however, high templar can also feedback medivacs making them virtually useless and/or destroying them outright providing a significant advantage for protoss.
What makes you think feedback will always auto-kill medivacs? It depends on how much energy the medivacs have. And high templars will only be able to get off one feedback each per warp-in.
Also, ghosts can EMP anything in a Protoss army, and their other spells are useful too.
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On September 27 2011 23:34 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 20:29 Thezzy wrote:
The CC takes twice as long to regenerate enough energy for a spell than a Queen or Nexus.
Mass MULEing is actually bad for Terran because we suddenly get a huge amount of minerals for short time, but it isn't sustainable so adding additional production facilities would leave us starved later on when the MULEs die.
This is what I hear from T players all the time, and I think P/Z players agree. Yes, late MULEs are lost opportunistic cost you could have earlier on. And you even go further and say that it's "actually bad" to mass MULE. Then the solution should be simple, isn't it? Put cool down on mules so that every OC can only have 1 active mule at any given time. Mass Mule'ing is bad for T, anyway. (Remember, that's per your own words) P and Z players want to help with a sensible solution. I think you should welcome such a change with open arms. Or maybe you're just a hypocrite/liar.
A cooldown on MULEs is something I wouldn't mind that much to be honest, but not 1 per OC as this means the energy buildup of OCs becomes nearly useless.
The cooldown would have to be short (less than 90 seconds, maybe 20-30) so that you can still spend the energy instead of being forced to use Scan or Supply drop but without instadropping a bunch of MULEs.
Again though, the Terran doesn't really benefit him or herself by suddenly dropping a huge amount of MULEs as the boost is temporary, so one could also say to let the Terran decide what is best to do with the MULEs, if we want to keep the ability to do it, why not let it stay for no other reason to quickly dump that energy.
Note that something similar could be said for Protoss.
There are no cooldowns on Chronoboost, enabling Protoss with a lot of max energy Nexii to suddenly boost a huge amount of production facilities all at once, temporarily 1.5x-ing the production capabilities (which Protoss can't support forever, just like Terran cant sustain production from a burst of mass MULEs).
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On September 27 2011 22:15 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 21:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 27 2011 20:29 Thezzy wrote:On September 27 2011 19:14 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2011 17:41 Cloudster wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that two or more well placed storms rip Terran bio apart (which is what it was designed for of course) so Terran have EMP which has better range to avoid being pwned to pieces by a couple of storms.
Everything seems pretty balanced to me, high risk with high reward. Sadly the numbers do not support your theory. Also with the exception of zealots, emp does equal damage to storm to Protoss units, instantly. Storm does damage over 4 in game seconds. So the argument that if HTs where faster terrans would auto lose is kinda silly. There could be a good reason HTs are slow, but right now Protoss are getting crushed in the GSL and Korea in general. Some tweaks are likely needed. EMP cannot kill and does not stop damage from being applied to the Terran. Yes, it is instant and 100 damage, but on Zealots, Sentries and Stalkers you aren't getting the full 100% out of it. When a Storm lands, you have to move your Bio out of it. They'll take anywhere from 20-80 damage and the time Bio is moving is equal to time they are not shooting back but are getting shot at. Storm can directly kill a unit, whereas EMP cannot, meaning that Storm is very spammable, but EMP is not, after 2-3 spread out over the army it's mostly done and Protoss will still keep shooting. Also keep in mind on what gets hits by these spells. Zealots and Stalkers, even when hit by EMP can still participate just fine in the battle, especially Chargelots. Marines/Marauders getting whacked by a Storm have to move out and will lose most of their HP before they can fire again. Ghosts and EMP in TvP are very important in keeping the HTs and Storms to a manageable number. Without them, Bio would likely vaporize to mass Storm carpets. As it is far easier for Protoss to mass on HT (with Chargelots for example) than it is for Terran to mass up on Ghosts I feel the EMP vs Storm debate is hardly screaming that it needs a tweak. 1. EMP doesn't need to kill- it does plenty of damage as is. It already had to be nerfed once because it did too much damage. There's no guarantee they got the amount right yet. 2. Of course you have to move your units during a battle. It's called micro. Both players should be doing this. Unfortunately, Protoss don't get the luxury of moving out of the way of an EMP because those are instantaneous. 3. Storm and EMP are just as spammable. Keep in mind that Storm doesn't stack, so they need to be spread out anyway. Also, since Storm is damage over a decently long period of time, moving your infantry back just a tiny bit negates a large portion of the entire spell. 4. Ghosts directly counter high templar, not the other way around. They also counter archons. It's also the case that ghosts are all-around more useful with their other spells (snipe, cloak, nuke). They're also faster and have longer range. They're also lower tech. Feedback can't reach ghosts before ghosts kill them. High templar is what some Protoss try to make to counter a traditional bio ball (if they don't want to deal with the colossi vs. viking struggle). But it's effective mostly if the Terran doesn't use ghosts. 1. Whether or not 100 shields (it did 100% in BW) is good or bad is something too open to debate to really make a statement. Racial bias will always come into this. The fact it does not kill is a big difference from being able to kill. If it could kill, it would be hugely overpowered even if it did 50 damage so it definitely matters. 2. Protoss doesn't have to move once EMPed, the micro against the spell itself ends with splitting up your casters. Terran has to move constantly throughout the battle dodging Colossi beams, Chargelots, Forcefields on top of Storms. Not saying Protoss doesn't have to micro, but anti-EMP micro is very small vs anti-Storm micro. 3. How is EMP spammable against anything other than Archons and 200 energy casters? Once the shields are down or the energy is low any additional EMPs do nothing to Protoss and only cost energy. Continual storms, even if they don't do full damage force Terran to keep moving the Bioball, not dealing any damage to Protoss. 4. Ghosts are not a counter to HT anymore than HT are a counter to Ghosts. Both can nullify the other with Snipe or Feedback. EMP can outrange Feedback, but Feedback can insta-nuke a Ghost. A HT without energy can form an Archon, a Ghost without energy can still shoot at Zealots. The units cannot be compared in any direct way, all they share is that they both have an AoE and anti-caster ability. As much as Protoss may need HT against Bio, Terran needs Ghosts to stay alive just as much.
1. Micro-ing your units and not taking damage is far better than needing to take hundreds of points of auto-damage -.-' I don't even see how that's an argument.
2. EMP is plenty spammable across an entire Protoss army, not just casters and archons. It removes shields, so it does damage. It'll essentially take out 1/4 to 1/2 of a Protoss ball's life immediately, depending on the unit composition.
3. I already explained how ghosts counter high templar. EMP outranges feedback, so high templar are useless against ghosts (let alone ones that are cloaked or feel like sniping). It's a non-issue; we should be assuming that both players are equally competent. The units can certainly be compared and contrasted because of their abilities. Ghosts have far better spells.
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I'm also really getting tired of hearing Terran players say that they need MULEs to *keep up with the worker count or mining efficiency of Protoss chrono boost*. How long is that nonsensical statement going to last?
Yeah, Protoss has chrono boost. And you realize that Protoss players use chrono boost on their workers like... fewer than ten times the entire game, right? (We're certainly done chrono boosting our nexuses by the ten minute mark.) We need to use it on our tech and other structures, while Terran players make dozens of MULEs throughout the entire game and scan once in a while.
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On September 28 2011 00:03 Thezzy wrote:
There are no cooldowns on Chronoboost, enabling Protoss with a lot of max energy Nexii to suddenly boost a huge amount of production facilities all at once, temporarily doubling the production capabilities (which Protoss can't support forever, just like Terran cant sustain production from a burst of mass MULEs).
It isn't doubling. It's only 1.5* whatever the production speed is.
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EPT
