Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 126

On September 27 2011 04:57 freetgy wrote:


corruptors don't suck they are the most costeffective unit air2air, and also beat every Air Unit minimum 1:1 ressource wise

And to prove your argument wrong, corrupters trade 1:1 ressource wise if you put equal ressources in both Corruptor / Voidray, which obviously contradicts that corruptor "melt" to Voidrays.

(if you know how to micro corruption spell properly, which most zerg obviously don't)

http://www.youtube.com/user/Magiccube100#p/a/u/1/Ml-Iv43xXvc

On September 27 2011 11:37 Elean wrote:

You really need to take some math lessons on your 1:1 ressources wise.

The limiting ressources is gas.
You are comparing a 1k gas army against a 750g and a 900g army.

I just did the same test with 900 gas void rays, against 900g corruptors. At the end 2 (out of 6) void rays survives with only shield damage. You want the replay ?


You are also looking at armies on A-move, with no focus fire. Once you stat focus firing, corruptors will overkill more.

You forget that protoss has no excuse for not being ahead in upgrades, they can have +1 before the spire is even completed.

The army size chosen is greatly favorable to void rays, in larger number the overkill of corruptors will hurt more, in smaller numbesr voids rays will charge.

Corruptors are a AA only unit, and they are not cost efficient against void rays.
And yes they melt against void rays.

On September 27 2011 11:37 Elean wrote:

You really need to take some math lessons on your 1:1 ressources wise.

The limiting ressources is gas.
You are comparing a 1k gas army against a 750g and a 900g army.

I just did the same test with 900 gas void rays, against 900g corruptors. At the end 2 (out of 6) void rays survives with only shield damage. You want the replay ?


You are also looking at armies on A-move, with no focus fire. Once you stat focus firing, corruptors will overkill more.

You forget that protoss has no excuse for not being ahead in upgrades, they can have +1 before the spire is even completed.

The army size chosen is greatly favorable to void rays, in larger number the overkill of corruptors will hurt more, in smaller numbesr voids rays will charge.

Corruptors are a AA only unit, and they are not cost efficient against void rays.
And yes they melt against void rays.

On September 27 2011 12:02 Alzadar wrote:


One very important thing when comparing units between Protoss and Zerg is to keep in mind how they were produced. A Zerg must only build a single 200/200 structure to unlock a nearly bottomless pit of air production, whereas every slot of air production a Protoss wants is going to cost him 150/150.

How long will it take a Zerg to build 25 Corruptors? 40 seconds.
How long will it take a Protoss to build 15 Void Rays? Probably about 6 minutes.

Just something to take into account.

On September 27 2011 12:19 -_- wrote:


One thing I think you should consider is how the units are built. Void Rays can only be built one per Stargate. Corrupters can be built many at a time from the hatchery.

Thus, a Zerg player need never, and in fact ought never, to engage Void Rays in anything like an even battle. If Protoss is investing in Void Rays, for example with two Stargates, you overinvest in corruptors and crush them. Then, he's left to rebuild a gateway composition.

But the most important things is to never look at Unit X vs Unit Y battles. You have to consider compositions. Void Rays won't be attacking alone, they'll have stalker back up. Corruptors won't be attacking alone, they'll have Infestors. And we really can't theorycraft those battles. We just have to watch them play out.

Edit: Sniped by above post -_-

On September 27 2011 10:28 -y0shi- wrote:
Isnt getting 7 vikings just to prevent further colossi production / snipe prisms worth it on its own? Even if you have 7 useless vikings after a battle, theyre not useless as they shut down the entire techtree of protoss. And the MMMG army is so strong that the missing supply shouldnt even matter that much since they now counter everything else that could come.

On September 27 2011 11:19 TeH_CaRnAg3 wrote:
just ganna throw something out there. Seen a few posts so far in this thread relating to "Who would ask a platinum player about balance?" Or something along those lines. Look, I know plat and below players a shunned upon. But really, just because of there league doesn't mean they don't know the game. I know tons of plat, low diamond players who know the game incredibly well, But have yet to attain the skill and speed needed to incorporate all their knowledge. I don't think we should shun somones opinion bases on league, rather based on what exactly they say and if it has relevance

On September 27 2011 13:00 Plansix wrote:


I think the worst part is how must Ghosts shut down the HT tech path. HTs are mind-blowing slow, they move the same speed as a Thor. Ghosts are so much quicker than HTs and EMP does damage to the Protoss army + shuts down casters.

I would like to see blizzard bring the HTs up to the speed of the other casters and see how that plays out. I really feel that HTs are slowly shaping up to be the worst of the three casters.

Also, if EMP worked like a standard AOE and did less damage the farther from the center(both shields and mana), it would go long way. Anything to avoid those one-sided battles that were decided when the EMPs were launched.

On September 27 2011 13:00 Plansix wrote:


I think the worst part is how must Ghosts shut down the HT tech path. HTs are mind-blowing slow, they move the same speed as a Thor. Ghosts are so much quicker than HTs and EMP does damage to the Protoss army + shuts down casters.

I would like to see blizzard bring the HTs up to the speed of the other casters and see how that plays out. I really feel that HTs are slowly shaping up to be the worst of the three casters.

Also, if EMP worked like a standard AOE and did less damage the farther from the center(both shields and mana), it would go long way. Anything to avoid those one-sided battles that were decided when the EMPs were launched.

On September 27 2011 11:37 Elean wrote:

You really need to take some math lessons on your 1:1 ressources wise.

The limiting ressources is gas.
You are comparing a 1k gas army against a 750g and a 900g army.

I just did the same test with 900 gas void rays, against 900g corruptors. At the end 2 (out of 6) void rays survives with only shield damage. You want the replay ?


You are also looking at armies on A-move, with no focus fire. Once you stat focus firing, corruptors will overkill more.

You forget that protoss has no excuse for not being ahead in upgrades, they can have +1 before the spire is even completed.

The army size chosen is greatly favorable to void rays, in larger number the overkill of corruptors will hurt more, in smaller numbesr voids rays will charge.

Corruptors are a AA only unit, and they are not cost efficient against void rays.
And yes they melt against void rays.

The "Ghost vs Templar battle" is all decided by micro and if you suck at microing / positioning you are right about that hard shut down. Thanks to Feedback you could also say the opposite. Just get some Sentries and make the Terran waste his EMPs on hallucinated units (Templars) or hide them in a Warp Prism at the back of your army.

On September 27 2011 16:32 ceaRshaf wrote:


So I should do all that and hope terran does not scan just to be on an equal level with him when he A moves and easily EMPs all my army? WTF? Balance is not about workarounds, but about:

1 x investment = 1 x reword

Now protoss has to :

3 x investment = 1 x reword.

While terran has:

1 x investment = 3 x reword.

On September 27 2011 13:05 Acritter wrote:


You're arguing against argument ad hominem, a widely renowned logical fallacy. Your point is reasonable. Anyone who can provide evidence to support their claims can do so. It so happens that higher-level players have more evidence because they can quote themselves, but that doesn't mean that a lower-tier player can't watch progames and draw out evidence to support a thesis.



I'd agree with this. The HT is clearly inferior to the Ghost, as it costs more gas, moves slower, doesn't attack, doesn't spawn with 75 energy, and has the dodgeable duration-based self-damaging Psi Storm and lower-range Feedback compared to the inescapable instant high-range EMP. Its only arguable advantages are that it can Storm-drop mineral lines and deal lethal damage. The Infestor isn't quite as clear-cut, as it doesn't have an anticaster ability, but Infestors seem to be more used than HTs, for what it's worth. That could simply indicate a lack of alternatives in the Zerg race, though.

However, I'm not so sure that a center-based EMP would be such a good idea. It would make it next to impossible to guess the real damage of an EMP, making the game less skill-based because the optimal way to cast EMPs would be to just spam them everywhere instead of carefully layering them to cover the entire Protoss force. I'd advocate either an AOE nerf or a switch to have it only remove energy.

On September 27 2011 15:41 pezit wrote:


Mutas kill void rays, corruptors kill carriers, phoenix and colossus. If corruptors were cost effective versus void rays as well zerg could shut down all air play with one unit, that isn't a very good idea is it?

On September 27 2011 18:02 Elean wrote:

Void rays are cost effective against muta. The only reason muta are good against voids rays is because they are faster and faster to build. But 6 void rays beat 11 muta. Many people still think muta counter void rays because they remember when void rays had 3 charges.

Corruptors don't shut down phoenix, they simply are not fast enough. All they can do is keep them away, which is almost useless since there should be spore/queens.

I don't think the game would be broken if corruptors alone could secure air supremacy against protoss. You don't need air supremacy to win the game. If zerg build mass corruptors, protoss can just counter it by making ground units.

But the point is not what would happen if corruptors could get air supremacy against protoss. The point is they don't, and as they are now they are the worst unit of the game. Their only usefullness is against colossus or for broodlords. And on top of that, they are not enough to deal with colossi unless you do an overkill (which is generally an auto-loose because you end up with useless corruptors).

On September 27 2011 18:22 pezit wrote:


No 6 void rays doesn't even beat 11 mutas with no micro, with micro the mutas will win even more since they can snipe one at a time with no charging up for the voids.