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On September 26 2011 18:29 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:51 Destructicon wrote:
I only see you assuming the best case scenario for your Protoss point of view. The one big thing you keep forgetting is that Vikings have a range of 9. They can go in, snipe the WP closest to the front and then get out before you're storm can catch them.
Because of the long range of vikings they can even snipe of of range of stalkers, and if the stalkers risk going too close or blinking forward they get EMPed in the face and a group of marauders with stim jumps forward to kill them.
The Vikings will keep doing this until you have no more WP left and all the HT are on the ground.
You're also assuming 1 storm will change the outcome, if the terran has his army split up in anticipation of a storm drop on his infantry, 1 storm will do noth and you've lost a fleet of WP. If you think storming vikings is going to get results you are mistaken, vikings have big range and can also be repaired.
The fact of the matter is, you need 2 or 3 storms on the main terran bio ball, you don't want position with it, you want it to do DPS, and this is because the terran bio ball is so cost effective, so strong together and so well supported by medivacs, that it can destroy the basic GW force of zealots and stalkers.
Again once your Colossus is dead, HT neutralized and WP destroyed the terran can force the engagement and win.
I find it funny that you mentioned threatening a terran's natural so he can't run away. Terran's army is more mobile, its more likely he can chose to fight you somewhere in the middle so he has a place to fall back on, at least any smart terran will do so. Its more likely he will force the engagement on the protoss by constantly dropping on the protoss' bases and killing workers/buildings.
The one thing YOU are forgetting is that Vikings do nothing against a Protoss army without Colossi ... so why should a Terran get those 7 Vikings to 1-shot your WP? There is no reason to do that. Do Protoss usually have both Colossi AND HTs? Usually not, right? So if you go for HTs they wont have Vikings! Oh and there is no need to keep that WP - the real one with the HT inside - at the front of your forces to enable those Vikings to assault the WP without risk. Keep it back so the Vikings have to get into range of your Stalkers. You might also try mixing in some hallucinated WPs to try and draw your OP Terran Vikings into a trap if you are so scared about them.
Like. so hard.
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Why should I be forced to devote extra APM to Warp Prism dropping, unit selecting, and Storm casting when you just hit Shift + E and blanket my whole army?
That is pretty poor argument. you are basically saying you are too lazy to micro your units.
That is like saying why should terrans have to devote their extra APM to micro marines against banelings.
You do it because you are playing to win and you want to get every possible edge against your opponent to get that win.
Besides, if protoss players could drop-micro while dealing with terrible dragoon AI and then do some macro at home base, I don't see how you wouldn't be able to do drop-micro when the whole game has been made more beginner friendly with a lot bigger unit selection and smart casting.
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On September 26 2011 18:28 love4every1 wrote:
I'm not going to find more reliable source, I am going to bend it. You can make statistics say anything. And you still haven't made any reasonable points that I haven't countered about the warp prism and HT. So just saying that you're done doesn't make you right <3
And trolling and spamming messages doenst make you right either
And your point is null in order to negate 1 emp which will still affect ground army, toss should add even more micro by putting units in WP.
If this is widely used somehow, just delaying emps will counter that on the spot ( while HT are in prism, terran army is melting the toss ground units )
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So what are your first sentiments after playing the new Patch for some days? - Do you feel the matchups have changed a lot. Is it easier to win with certain races or are certain strategies less viable?
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On September 26 2011 18:32 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:28 love4every1 wrote:
I'm not going to find more reliable source, I am going to bend it. You can make statistics say anything. And you still haven't made any reasonable points that I haven't countered about the warp prism and HT. So just saying that you're done doesn't make you right <3 And trolling and spamming messages doenst make you right either And your point is null in order to negate 1 emp which will still affect ground army, toss should add even more micro by putting units in WP. If this is widely used somehow, just delaying emps will counter that on the spot ( while HT are in prism, terran army is melting the toss ground units )
I didn't spam until the end, and I never trolled.
Yes, they have to add micro. How does it counter?? Terran doesn't know which warp prism it comes out of, so protoss will always be able to get at least a couple storms off.
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On September 26 2011 18:32 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:28 love4every1 wrote:
I'm not going to find more reliable source, I am going to bend it. You can make statistics say anything. And you still haven't made any reasonable points that I haven't countered about the warp prism and HT. So just saying that you're done doesn't make you right <3 And trolling and spamming messages doenst make you right either And your point is null in order to negate 1 emp which will still affect ground army, toss should add even more micro by putting units in WP. If this is widely used somehow, just delaying emps will counter that on the spot ( while HT are in prism, terran army is melting the toss ground units )
And it only spiraled out of control cause I got angry >< Whenever we were talking about the actual strategy, there was nothing I didn't have an answer to. The guy found one victory that wasn't even related to the strategy and used it to discredit the entirety of a separate argument. If anyone was trolling, he was.
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On September 26 2011 18:37 blowfish wrote:
So what are your first sentiments after playing the new Patch for some days? - Do you feel the matchups have changed a lot. Is it easier to win with certain races or are certain strategies less viable?
Honestly, I feel like everything has pretty much remained the same. Fun, gimmicky things like immortal-dropping and immortal all-ins in PvT have become more viable and harass-based strategies in PvZ are marginally safer, but that's about it.
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On September 26 2011 18:30 love4every1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:29 Rabiator wrote:On September 26 2011 17:51 Destructicon wrote:
I only see you assuming the best case scenario for your Protoss point of view. The one big thing you keep forgetting is that Vikings have a range of 9. They can go in, snipe the WP closest to the front and then get out before you're storm can catch them.
Because of the long range of vikings they can even snipe of of range of stalkers, and if the stalkers risk going too close or blinking forward they get EMPed in the face and a group of marauders with stim jumps forward to kill them.
The Vikings will keep doing this until you have no more WP left and all the HT are on the ground.
You're also assuming 1 storm will change the outcome, if the terran has his army split up in anticipation of a storm drop on his infantry, 1 storm will do noth and you've lost a fleet of WP. If you think storming vikings is going to get results you are mistaken, vikings have big range and can also be repaired.
The fact of the matter is, you need 2 or 3 storms on the main terran bio ball, you don't want position with it, you want it to do DPS, and this is because the terran bio ball is so cost effective, so strong together and so well supported by medivacs, that it can destroy the basic GW force of zealots and stalkers.
Again once your Colossus is dead, HT neutralized and WP destroyed the terran can force the engagement and win.
I find it funny that you mentioned threatening a terran's natural so he can't run away. Terran's army is more mobile, its more likely he can chose to fight you somewhere in the middle so he has a place to fall back on, at least any smart terran will do so. Its more likely he will force the engagement on the protoss by constantly dropping on the protoss' bases and killing workers/buildings.
The one thing YOU are forgetting is that Vikings do nothing against a Protoss army without Colossi ... so why should a Terran get those 7 Vikings to 1-shot your WP? There is no reason to do that. Do Protoss usually have both Colossi AND HTs? Usually not, right? So if you go for HTs they wont have Vikings! Oh and there is no need to keep that WP - the real one with the HT inside - at the front of your forces to enable those Vikings to assault the WP without risk. Keep it back so the Vikings have to get into range of your Stalkers. You might also try mixing in some hallucinated WPs to try and draw your OP Terran Vikings into a trap if you are so scared about them. Like. so hard.
If you've made 7 vikings and can't use them I suggest landing 6 of them and adding them to your ground army
1 you keep in the air for scouting and high ground spotting.
btw before you make 7 vikings, wouldn't you at least scout to see robo with robobay?
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4713 Posts
Hallucinated WP, interesting idea, but now that you mentioned it I can just always remember to scan the Protoss army to pick off the right unit, in fact I should do that anyway since scanning is such a nice tool.
The 7 viking argument was in response to another user who keeps insisting that HT+WP is viable if you play mind games with the terran by making 3-4 or maybe more WP with like 1 HT in each. In this case 7 vikings is totally worth it because of their range they snipe the expensive WP with some HT inside and they will pay for themselves even without Colossus on the field, once the WP are dead the HT are grounded, EMPs hit and the slaughter can begin.
If you keep only 1 or 2 WP with the real HT inside just to protect them it is still worth EMPing the protoss army, destroying the WP and then engaging the protoss. You also can't protect the WP with deception since scans will pick up any hallucinated units.
The HT in the WP trick just masks the bigger problem, the gateway units of zealots and stalkers don't trade cost effective with the terran force, they are weak and they need HT or Colossus to hold their own, once those are dead its goodbye. It also doesn't help that EMP can destroy 33 to 50% of a units effective HP.
Also, you might not think of it as such, but, if one side has to work twice as hard to gain and edge or win a fight, then it is a balance flaw. And it is more open to being screwed up.
In the heat of a fight a terran just needs to snipe the WP, EMP the army with HT and sentries having priority and then take the army and stim forward to victory. The protoss has to juggle units back and forth trying to avoid EMP on his sentries, has to micro his WP so it doesn't die, has to micro HT in and out of the WP so they can storm etc.
The more stuff going on and the more stuff that needs doing the higher chances of failure. This WP play basically boils down to Protoss always having to work twice as much to achieve what the terran can do easier. And if the Protoss slips up even one bit, if the WP is sniped, the HT EMPed, the sentries EMPed etc, it can all go to hell.
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Right now there is a lot of cheese in PvZ in my opinion, especially from the zerg side. They try to bust Protoss-FFE-wallins more often, and there is more early pooling. Even in the GSL this is the case, for example Check, SUPERSTAR (well, this might not be the best example) and July. Maybe it will stop in a while, but it seems like Zergs don't want to play macro games anymore because of the infestor nerf, there is nothing to counter collossi cost effectively anymore, before they can do massive damage to a Zerg's ground army. So right now it seems like the NP range nerf has hurt that matchup.
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4713 Posts
I think Zergs are exaggerating the range nerf on Neural too much. I think it was needed since it seems ridiculous for Neural to have the same range as a colossus with upgrade, but I don't think it is as bad as people think. Neural can still out range a lot of things and high value targets.
The thing about Neural on Colossus though was that, it was too cost effective, the infestor, which already could hold an army in place and deal damage over time setting up things like baneling drops, could also just as effectively counter colossus. The infestor was just doing too many things too well.
Now you still have a choice, you can try to counter with Neural, but you need better control and a nice spot where you can do it. Or you can counter with Corrupters.
Corrupters aren't that bad I made a post specifically detailing Corrupters, it takes only 15 to 1 shot a corrupted colossus, the corrupter also scales great so with +2 weapons it takes only 13 to 1 shot a colossus.
Corrupters can also then be turned into brood lords, and last I checked going BL is one of the natural transitions of zerg late game.
Also BL and Infestors go very well together, fungal the enemy army in place while BLs rain down death.
In the NASL season 2 game HwangSin vs Idra the same usually thing happened. Idra macroed like he is used to and forced HwangSin to stay on 2 bases. HwangSin tries to do some air pressure but fails since Idra scouted and was well prepared for it.
HwangSin had a force of Zealots, Sentries, Stalkers and Colossus, Idra delays the army and picks some of it bit by bit with fungals, he loses some roaches in an engagement. Eventually HwangSin destroys Idra's natural, however Idra catches him in a beautiful pincer with roaches on all sides and also manages to squeeze 2 neural parasites, the protoss force is wiped out while Idra expands again.
HwangSin is forced to tap out due to lack of resources.
In that game Idra showed that macro zerg still works he showed that Neural still works though not as effective as before. If he'd have transitioned into Corrupters earlier he could have also countered the Colossus much easier, but he ultimately won trough positioning and fungal's killing sentries.
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15 corruptors to one-shot a collossus? If the protoss has 4 of them, he spent 1200 minerals and 800 gas on them. The zerg spends 2250 minerals and 1500 gas to counter them. and after the corruptors killed the collossi, theyre basicly useless and you ground army is 30 supply short and wont be able to compete against the protoss one.
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Zergs HAVE to one shot colossi ?
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4713 Posts
The corrupters aren't useless after the colossus are dead, they can still cast corruption on the ground army to give the zerg the edge, after the engagement those corrupter can transform into BLs. What makes corrupters worth it is that they are a natural transition to BL.
Last but not least, if the zerg did his job well and out expanded the protoss, defended the pressure and forced the protoss to stay on 2 basses or at the very least 2 less then the zerg, then the zerg can afford those corrupters, its the protoss who is hard pressed to not lose all his army.
And while it is nice to 1 shot colossus, you could probably still make it work with 10-12 corrupters. And again corrupters scale better against colossus then vikings, with more weapons upgrade it takes less corrupters to 1 shot a colossus.
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I would still prefer to have vikings just because of the range, which makes them much better than corruptors. Vikings also cost less and can be used as a harass unit after the collossi are dead.
The corruption ability still not makes those 30 supply useful, it is just a slight damage increase that won't influence the outcome of the batlle most times.
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4713 Posts
While vikings do have a long range, corrupters have 200 HP and 2 base armor, vikings only have 125 HP and 0 base armor. Corrupters need to get close to do damage, but they do have the means to survive.
Also corruption isn't an insignificant damage increase, 20% damage is a lot, 20% more damage taken on 15 units can be the difference between victory or defeat in some of the tight games we see now a days. And if you have the corrupters lying around, why not make use of the ability?
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On September 26 2011 20:29 Destructicon wrote:
The corrupters aren't useless after the colossus are dead, they can still cast corruption on the ground army to give the zerg the edge, after the engagement those corrupter can transform into BLs. What makes corrupters worth it is that they are a natural transition to BL.
Last but not least, if the zerg did his job well and out expanded the protoss, defended the pressure and forced the protoss to stay on 2 basses or at the very least 2 less then the zerg, then the zerg can afford those corrupters, its the protoss who is hard pressed to not lose all his army.
And while it is nice to 1 shot colossus, you could probably still make it work with 10-12 corrupters. And again corrupters scale better against colossus then vikings, with more weapons upgrade it takes less corrupters to 1 shot a colossus.
This, so much so.
If you take down the colossus, cast corruption and retreat them and start morphing Brood Lords, if you can invest so much into making 10 or so corruptors, then you can invest 100/150 in a greater spire and another 600/600 making atleast half of those corruptors into brood lords. This is a great advantage/ability to have so use it.
And couldn't agree more on the 1 shot colossus issue, the base armour and increased HP makes them a great unit to stay in combat longer than a viking, or even try poke and snipe colossus before the main engagement.
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On September 26 2011 20:15 BoBiNoU wrote:
Zergs HAVE to one shot colossi ?
If you consider that 4 or 5 colossus can 1 shot almost everything on the ground, you can't really afford to take your time.
When roach/hydra/corruptors was popular, the rule of thumb was 4 corruptors for each colossus, and it was expected to have the whole ground army to melt anyway.
So yes, you have to one shot colossi.
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On September 26 2011 21:01 Firesilver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 20:29 Destructicon wrote:
The corrupters aren't useless after the colossus are dead, they can still cast corruption on the ground army to give the zerg the edge, after the engagement those corrupter can transform into BLs. What makes corrupters worth it is that they are a natural transition to BL.
Last but not least, if the zerg did his job well and out expanded the protoss, defended the pressure and forced the protoss to stay on 2 basses or at the very least 2 less then the zerg, then the zerg can afford those corrupters, its the protoss who is hard pressed to not lose all his army.
And while it is nice to 1 shot colossus, you could probably still make it work with 10-12 corrupters. And again corrupters scale better against colossus then vikings, with more weapons upgrade it takes less corrupters to 1 shot a colossus. This, so much so. If you take down the colossus, cast corruption and retreat them and start morphing Brood Lords, if you can invest so much into making 10 or so corruptors, then you can invest 100/150 in a greater spire and another 600/600 making atleast half of those corruptors into brood lords. This is a great advantage/ability to have so use it. And couldn't agree more on the 1 shot colossus issue, the base armour and increased HP makes them a great unit to stay in combat longer than a viking, or even try poke and snipe colossus before the main engagement.
Don't compare corruptors and vikings.
Viking is a good unit, corruptors are the worst unit of the game.
Against armored units, vikings have double the damage. Even if the target is massive, vikings still have the better dps. Corruptors are much more expensive than vikings. Vikings can fight a ground army, they are actually as good as hydras in ground vs ground.
Corruptors melt against void rays.
But the worse, is that they are completely useless when there is no more colossus on the field. It's the only unit in the game that can become useless.
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On September 26 2011 19:04 TaKiTaKi wrote:
Right now there is a lot of cheese in PvZ in my opinion, especially from the zerg side. They try to bust Protoss-FFE-wallins more often, and there is more early pooling. Even in the GSL this is the case, for example Check, SUPERSTAR (well, this might not be the best example) and July. Maybe it will stop in a while, but it seems like Zergs don't want to play macro games anymore because of the infestor nerf, there is nothing to counter collossi cost effectively anymore, before they can do massive damage to a Zerg's ground army. So right now it seems like the NP range nerf has hurt that matchup.
The infestor has to due with the issue but not as much as you may think. It's not the biggest problem that some Zerg may have. What is really the problem is that on many maps such as Tal'Darim and the new Terminus it's incredibly easy for the Protoss to take a Third but harder for a Zerg. Or the Zerg can have problems with pressuring a third that a Protoss can take without too much punishment (taldarim falls into this). Before the nerf you can go 2base Infestor and because of the unit's efficiency not have to outmacro the Protoss. However the unit has been nerfed so now it's become harder to deal with. It's not as big of a problem as it seems though, especially when the only map where forge FE is very economically strong on ladder is of course Taldarim and perhaps Nerazim crypt on close positions.
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EPT
