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On September 26 2011 22:05 Joey Wheeler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 19:04 TaKiTaKi wrote:
Right now there is a lot of cheese in PvZ in my opinion, especially from the zerg side. They try to bust Protoss-FFE-wallins more often, and there is more early pooling. Even in the GSL this is the case, for example Check, SUPERSTAR (well, this might not be the best example) and July. Maybe it will stop in a while, but it seems like Zergs don't want to play macro games anymore because of the infestor nerf, there is nothing to counter collossi cost effectively anymore, before they can do massive damage to a Zerg's ground army. So right now it seems like the NP range nerf has hurt that matchup. The infestor has to due with the issue but not as much as you may think. It's not the biggest problem that some Zerg may have. What is really the problem is that on many maps such as Tal'Darim and the new Terminus it's incredibly easy for the Protoss to take a Third but harder for a Zerg. Or the Zerg can have problems with pressuring a third that a Protoss can take without too much punishment (taldarim falls into this). Before the nerf you can go 2base Infestor and because of the unit's efficiency not have to outmacro the Protoss. However the unit has been nerfed so now it's become harder to deal with. It's not as big of a problem as it seems though, especially when the only map where forge FE is very economically strong on ladder is of course Taldarim and perhaps Nerazim crypt on close positions.
Tal darim altar especially with rocks, as the protoss can deny your expansion by pylon blocking while taking their own, and your third is so delayed because of the rocks. It is a tricky situation for zergs
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4713 Posts
Vikings do 2 attacks of 10 damage each or 14 vs armored with 2 seconds reload.
Corrupters 1 attack of 14 damage or 20 vs massive with a 1.9 seconds reload.
With corruption corrupters attack becomes 24 vs colossus.
Yes the viking has better range and a bit higher DPS, but it is only a little bit higher then corrupters.
Because corrupters do 20 damage vs massive, whenever they get a weapon upgrade the damage goes up by 2. The protoss can get armor upgrades to counter it this a bit but it is less effective vs corrupters then it is vs vikings. Viking damage on each missile goes from 14 to 15, but because of armor it goes back to 14, damage stays the same. Corrupter damage goes from 20 to 22, and because of armor to 21. Add the other 2 weapon upgrades and corrupter does 23 damage +20% from corruption it gets to 27.6 and with 1.9 speed it just edges out the viking.
Yes the corrupter may not have the range or the ability to go to ground and contribute with DPS like a viking but it makes up for it with good damage, corruption, higher HP, higher armor, faster speed.
It isn't as bad as you are making it out, it contributes to DPS with corruption and then morphs into a BL
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On September 26 2011 21:40 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 21:01 Firesilver wrote:On September 26 2011 20:29 Destructicon wrote:
The corrupters aren't useless after the colossus are dead, they can still cast corruption on the ground army to give the zerg the edge, after the engagement those corrupter can transform into BLs. What makes corrupters worth it is that they are a natural transition to BL.
Last but not least, if the zerg did his job well and out expanded the protoss, defended the pressure and forced the protoss to stay on 2 basses or at the very least 2 less then the zerg, then the zerg can afford those corrupters, its the protoss who is hard pressed to not lose all his army.
And while it is nice to 1 shot colossus, you could probably still make it work with 10-12 corrupters. And again corrupters scale better against colossus then vikings, with more weapons upgrade it takes less corrupters to 1 shot a colossus. This, so much so. If you take down the colossus, cast corruption and retreat them and start morphing Brood Lords, if you can invest so much into making 10 or so corruptors, then you can invest 100/150 in a greater spire and another 600/600 making atleast half of those corruptors into brood lords. This is a great advantage/ability to have so use it. And couldn't agree more on the 1 shot colossus issue, the base armour and increased HP makes them a great unit to stay in combat longer than a viking, or even try poke and snipe colossus before the main engagement. Don't compare corruptors and vikings. Viking is a good unit, corruptors are the worst unit of the game. Against armored units, vikings have double the damage. Even if the target is massive, vikings still have the better dps. Corruptors are much more expensive than vikings. Vikings can fight a ground army, they are actually as good as hydras in ground vs ground. Corruptors melt against void rays. But the worse, is that they are completely useless when there is no more colossus on the field. It's the only unit in the game that can become useless.
They're also the only unit in the game that turn into broodlords, and last time I checked, those aren't useless. They're pretty darn good.
And so calling corruptors useless is incredibly inaccurate.
Not only do corruptors kill off colossi, they halt further colossi production, can cast corruption, and can turn into one of the best units in the game. That's not completely awful.
(I agree that vikings are very good, but corruptors aren't useless.)
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Corruptors are extremely good.
They're boring units, but they're good stat-wise...
Don't mix the two up.
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On September 26 2011 23:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 21:40 Elean wrote:On September 26 2011 21:01 Firesilver wrote:On September 26 2011 20:29 Destructicon wrote:
The corrupters aren't useless after the colossus are dead, they can still cast corruption on the ground army to give the zerg the edge, after the engagement those corrupter can transform into BLs. What makes corrupters worth it is that they are a natural transition to BL.
Last but not least, if the zerg did his job well and out expanded the protoss, defended the pressure and forced the protoss to stay on 2 basses or at the very least 2 less then the zerg, then the zerg can afford those corrupters, its the protoss who is hard pressed to not lose all his army.
And while it is nice to 1 shot colossus, you could probably still make it work with 10-12 corrupters. And again corrupters scale better against colossus then vikings, with more weapons upgrade it takes less corrupters to 1 shot a colossus. This, so much so. If you take down the colossus, cast corruption and retreat them and start morphing Brood Lords, if you can invest so much into making 10 or so corruptors, then you can invest 100/150 in a greater spire and another 600/600 making atleast half of those corruptors into brood lords. This is a great advantage/ability to have so use it. And couldn't agree more on the 1 shot colossus issue, the base armour and increased HP makes them a great unit to stay in combat longer than a viking, or even try poke and snipe colossus before the main engagement. Don't compare corruptors and vikings. Viking is a good unit, corruptors are the worst unit of the game. Against armored units, vikings have double the damage. Even if the target is massive, vikings still have the better dps. Corruptors are much more expensive than vikings. Vikings can fight a ground army, they are actually as good as hydras in ground vs ground. Corruptors melt against void rays. But the worse, is that they are completely useless when there is no more colossus on the field. It's the only unit in the game that can become useless. They're also the only unit in the game that turn into broodlords, and last time I checked, those aren't useless. They're pretty darn good. And so calling corruptors useless is incredibly inaccurate. Not only do corruptors kill off colossi, they halt further colossi production, can cast corruption, and can turn into one of the best units in the game. That's not completely awful. (I agree that vikings are very good, but corruptors aren't useless.)
Corruptors are pretty good when you get colossi, but I disagree that it doesn't become useless after toss stops getting them. The corruption spell isn't really that good. It's actually pretty bad against anything that's not a high profile unit. After all the colossi are gone what are you going to use corruption on? Stalkers? Zealots? High templar? The only other unit that you can effectively use corruption on is the immortal and that changed with the patch of +1 immortal range because now you can't reach them any more. If you do use corruption on other units like stalkers IMO it doesn't make that big of a difference in battle and after they use their corruption they're still useless. If you disagree I would really like to see a video where corruption was the spell that made a difference in battle because I would love to try it out for myself.
There's also a big time difference from when corruptors come out to when brood lords come out. During all that time, corruptors are simply eating up supply. This is the point at which they become useless. If you make 8 corrupters = 16 supply of a unit which now does nothing until hive finishes.
The other issue I have with the corrupter is that it's extremely boring. Protoss and terran anti air all have some sort of interesting mechanic to it. Terran has vikings which can land and contribute to ground damage and banshees which you can create nice timing attacks with (plus cloaking). Protoss has phoenixes void rays both with either an interesting mechanic or spell. You can create entire builds revolved around stargate units. The corrupter is pretty much like the most general unit of all time. It attacks only air to air and it has the most generalized single target debuff spell ever.
Tangent time:
How does everyone feel about the infestor at this point? I think the FG nerf did do something for toss players, but I still feel that it's a bit too strong because of the lockdown mechanic. Also I feel that NP is really too difficult to use now and that I'd rather use FG just because it's still so good. I feel like FG needs to change in 1 of 2 ways for it to be a balanced spell.
1. Make it so that FG can't kill units (like the defiler in BW) and/or
2. Separate the make FG only slow and not lockdown
On top of this NP 9 range should be brought back because it was an amazing spell to watch from an esports standpoint.
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On September 26 2011 23:49 Zerksys wrote:
On top of this NP 9 range should be brought back because it was an amazing spell to watch from an esports standpoint.
Giving it some sort of other nerf like a casting time or something would have been much better to watch too
just think of the commentators hyping up scenarios:
"OMG WILL IT CAST IN TIME TO STEAL THE COLLUSSI AND SWING THE BATTLE?"
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On September 27 2011 01:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 23:49 Zerksys wrote:
On top of this NP 9 range should be brought back because it was an amazing spell to watch from an esports standpoint. Giving it some sort of other nerf like a casting time or something would have been much better to watch too just think of the commentators hyping up scenarios: "OMG WILL IT CAST IN TIME TO STEAL THE COLLUSSI AND SWING THE BATTLE?"
Balance changes should be based on necessity, not on how cool it would be to watch >.>
Aesthetics should come second. Form follows function.
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On September 27 2011 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 01:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 26 2011 23:49 Zerksys wrote:
On top of this NP 9 range should be brought back because it was an amazing spell to watch from an esports standpoint. Giving it some sort of other nerf like a casting time or something would have been much better to watch too just think of the commentators hyping up scenarios: "OMG WILL IT CAST IN TIME TO STEAL THE COLLUSSI AND SWING THE BATTLE?" Balance changes should be based on necessity, not on how cool it would be to watch >.> Aesthetics should come second. Form follows function.
That's ok because 9 range NP was hardly a problem, 7 range is entirely useless. I doubt I'm the only one who hasn't researched NP even once since the patch.
I got no problem with Infestors getting nerfed a bit, but yeeesh, change Fungal or Infested Terrans, why touch NP when it was perfectly fine? NP was the single most balanced Infestor spell and Blizz just made it useless, I don't really understand that.
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Yeh I agree with the person above I had no problem with NP on its own it was just fungal and the inability to do much against it I had a problem with. When I get NP I just blink some stalkers or focus fire down the Infestor however Chain - Fungal just killed everything
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4713 Posts
Neural change was deserved and I've had zerg friends agree on it as well.
9 range was just too big, the only unit entirely able to out range it was the siege tank, every other candidate for neural, Immortal, Colossus, Thor, BC, Carrier etc had a range equal to or smaller then the Neural, it was really hard to get to the infestors when they did it.
People talk like sniping the infestor was easy, I want to know how it was easy when other infestors where fungaling your army so you couldn't move/blink forward and when there was also an army of roaches between you and the infestors.
You could have two scenarios.
Scenario 1 you ploped down forcefields managed to trap some roaches, but behind the FF where even more roaches and infestors doing neural. You can't move forward much because of the FF blocking your way, zealots have no way to get close. If the zerg sees you moving towards the FF to blink on to the infestors you get fungaled by one of the infestors not using neural. You are forced to focus fire on the infestors only with your colossus, if all your colossus are neuraled you can't do almost anything.
Scenario 2
Your army was fungaled first, roaches got a surround and now infestors come in and do neurals. This time between you and the infestors is an army of roaches, but the point still stands, you can't do much about it because you have two obstacles blocking your way and not enough range to do much.
Now the range is such that the infestor will be way closer to the FF when he casts neural, so you have time to react, and target them a bit more from range or feedback them.
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On September 27 2011 01:50 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 27 2011 01:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 26 2011 23:49 Zerksys wrote:
On top of this NP 9 range should be brought back because it was an amazing spell to watch from an esports standpoint. Giving it some sort of other nerf like a casting time or something would have been much better to watch too just think of the commentators hyping up scenarios: "OMG WILL IT CAST IN TIME TO STEAL THE COLLUSSI AND SWING THE BATTLE?" Balance changes should be based on necessity, not on how cool it would be to watch >.> Aesthetics should come second. Form follows function. That's ok because 9 range NP was hardly a problem, 7 range is entirely useless. I doubt I'm the only one who hasn't researched NP even once since the patch.I got no problem with Infestors getting nerfed a bit, but yeeesh, change Fungal or Infested Terrans, why touch NP when it was perfectly fine? NP was the single most balanced Infestor spell and Blizz just made it useless, I don't really understand that.
I think you just proved that you have no way of knowing that NP is "entirely useless"... considering you're not even trying to deal with the nerf.
Simply put, you shouldn't get free NPs on everything, especially since the entire Zerg army is going to be in front of your infestors anyway, guarding them. Yes, infestors don't have much life. However, the opponent's army is wasting time attempting to focus-fire single units instead of normally dealing with your entire army.
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I like the NP change. It's pretty clear that zergs still have a large variety of options when it comes to ZvP, as evidenced by recent GSL games. Also, Protoss seem to be having a better time against zerg, but it doesn't seem to be too much because of the balance changes. Perhaps the warp prism buff simply made Protoss more aware of the warp prism, as I've heard Liquid'Tyler say.
I am mad about my 5 seconds on my rax though... OCD starts to kick in with that shit.
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On September 26 2011 18:42 frontliner2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:30 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 18:29 Rabiator wrote:On September 26 2011 17:51 Destructicon wrote:
I only see you assuming the best case scenario for your Protoss point of view. The one big thing you keep forgetting is that Vikings have a range of 9. They can go in, snipe the WP closest to the front and then get out before you're storm can catch them.
Because of the long range of vikings they can even snipe of of range of stalkers, and if the stalkers risk going too close or blinking forward they get EMPed in the face and a group of marauders with stim jumps forward to kill them.
The Vikings will keep doing this until you have no more WP left and all the HT are on the ground.
You're also assuming 1 storm will change the outcome, if the terran has his army split up in anticipation of a storm drop on his infantry, 1 storm will do noth and you've lost a fleet of WP. If you think storming vikings is going to get results you are mistaken, vikings have big range and can also be repaired.
The fact of the matter is, you need 2 or 3 storms on the main terran bio ball, you don't want position with it, you want it to do DPS, and this is because the terran bio ball is so cost effective, so strong together and so well supported by medivacs, that it can destroy the basic GW force of zealots and stalkers.
Again once your Colossus is dead, HT neutralized and WP destroyed the terran can force the engagement and win.
I find it funny that you mentioned threatening a terran's natural so he can't run away. Terran's army is more mobile, its more likely he can chose to fight you somewhere in the middle so he has a place to fall back on, at least any smart terran will do so. Its more likely he will force the engagement on the protoss by constantly dropping on the protoss' bases and killing workers/buildings.
The one thing YOU are forgetting is that Vikings do nothing against a Protoss army without Colossi ... so why should a Terran get those 7 Vikings to 1-shot your WP? There is no reason to do that. Do Protoss usually have both Colossi AND HTs? Usually not, right? So if you go for HTs they wont have Vikings! Oh and there is no need to keep that WP - the real one with the HT inside - at the front of your forces to enable those Vikings to assault the WP without risk. Keep it back so the Vikings have to get into range of your Stalkers. You might also try mixing in some hallucinated WPs to try and draw your OP Terran Vikings into a trap if you are so scared about them. Like. so hard. If you've made 7 vikings and can't use them I suggest landing 6 of them and adding them to your ground army 1 you keep in the air for scouting and high ground spotting. btw before you make 7 vikings, wouldn't you at least scout to see robo with robobay? x
Protoss cant hallucinate buildings and it might be a bit expensive to build them just to fake the Terran into building Vikings. So if that Protoss goes the way of Robos to get Colossi he wont have HTs with Storm ... which was the whole point of the whi... err discussion "poor Warp Prisms get shot down by the 7+ Vikings which every Terran will always have".
Vikings might be nice on the ground in a TvT against Hellions, but Protoss basic units all do their maximum damage against them, so they will be torn apart like a paper plane in a hurricane. Sure you could try harrassing a mineral line with them, but that doesnt really work due to Warp-ins and the landing / starting not being instant.
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On September 27 2011 02:46 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:42 frontliner2 wrote:On September 26 2011 18:30 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 18:29 Rabiator wrote:On September 26 2011 17:51 Destructicon wrote:
I only see you assuming the best case scenario for your Protoss point of view. The one big thing you keep forgetting is that Vikings have a range of 9. They can go in, snipe the WP closest to the front and then get out before you're storm can catch them.
Because of the long range of vikings they can even snipe of of range of stalkers, and if the stalkers risk going too close or blinking forward they get EMPed in the face and a group of marauders with stim jumps forward to kill them.
The Vikings will keep doing this until you have no more WP left and all the HT are on the ground.
You're also assuming 1 storm will change the outcome, if the terran has his army split up in anticipation of a storm drop on his infantry, 1 storm will do noth and you've lost a fleet of WP. If you think storming vikings is going to get results you are mistaken, vikings have big range and can also be repaired.
The fact of the matter is, you need 2 or 3 storms on the main terran bio ball, you don't want position with it, you want it to do DPS, and this is because the terran bio ball is so cost effective, so strong together and so well supported by medivacs, that it can destroy the basic GW force of zealots and stalkers.
Again once your Colossus is dead, HT neutralized and WP destroyed the terran can force the engagement and win.
I find it funny that you mentioned threatening a terran's natural so he can't run away. Terran's army is more mobile, its more likely he can chose to fight you somewhere in the middle so he has a place to fall back on, at least any smart terran will do so. Its more likely he will force the engagement on the protoss by constantly dropping on the protoss' bases and killing workers/buildings.
The one thing YOU are forgetting is that Vikings do nothing against a Protoss army without Colossi ... so why should a Terran get those 7 Vikings to 1-shot your WP? There is no reason to do that. Do Protoss usually have both Colossi AND HTs? Usually not, right? So if you go for HTs they wont have Vikings! Oh and there is no need to keep that WP - the real one with the HT inside - at the front of your forces to enable those Vikings to assault the WP without risk. Keep it back so the Vikings have to get into range of your Stalkers. You might also try mixing in some hallucinated WPs to try and draw your OP Terran Vikings into a trap if you are so scared about them. Like. so hard. If you've made 7 vikings and can't use them I suggest landing 6 of them and adding them to your ground army 1 you keep in the air for scouting and high ground spotting. btw before you make 7 vikings, wouldn't you at least scout to see robo with robobay? x Protoss cant hallucinate buildings and it might be a bit expensive to build them just to fake the Terran into building Vikings. So if that Protoss goes the way of Robos to get Colossi he wont have HTs with Storm ... which was the whole point of the whi... err discussion "poor Warp Prisms get shot down by the 7+ Vikings which every Terran will always have". Vikings might be nice on the ground in a TvT against Hellions, but Protoss basic units all do their maximum damage against them, so they will be torn apart like a paper plane in a hurricane. Sure you could try harrassing a mineral line with them, but that doesnt really work due to Warp-ins and the landing / starting not being instant.
Why is this conversation even occurring?
Just having a robotics facility isn't going to fool any Terran into massing vikings if they're scouting lol. Terran can scan and scout very frequently. They will see a robotics support bay and colossi if the Protoss is going colossi, and they won't see them if the Protoss isn't going them.
If the Terran is attempting to blind-counter a unit that he doesn't even know his opponent has the tech for (let alone knows that the opponent has a bunch of already), then it's his fault for not getting the proper intel. I don't blindly mass immortals against Zerg just because of the off-chance that he may have gone mass roach. I scout first, then react accordingly.
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On September 26 2011 21:40 Elean wrote:
Corruptors melt against void rays.
corruptors don't suck they are the most costeffective unit air2air, and also beat every Air Unit minimum 1:1 ressource wise
And to prove your argument wrong, corrupters trade 1:1 ressource wise if you put equal ressources in both Corruptor / Voidray, which obviously contradicts that corruptor "melt" to Voidrays.
(if you know how to micro corruption spell properly, which most zerg obviously don't)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Magiccube100#p/a/u/1/Ml-Iv43xXvc
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On September 27 2011 04:57 freetgy wrote:corruptors don't suck they are the most costeffective unit air2air, and also beat every Air Unit minimum 1:1 ressource wise And to prove your argument wrong, corrupters trade 1:1 ressource wise if you put equal ressources in both Corruptor / Voidray, which obviously contradicts that corruptor "melt" to Voidrays. (if you know how to micro corruption spell properly, which most zerg obviously don't) http://www.youtube.com/user/Magiccube100#p/a/u/1/Ml-Iv43xXvc
Haha and that was even without the Zerg player micro-ing away the corruptors once the void rays had become charged.
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On September 27 2011 04:57 freetgy wrote:corruptors don't suck they are the most costeffective unit air2air, and also beat every Air Unit minimum 1:1 ressource wise And to prove your argument wrong, corrupters trade 1:1 ressource wise if you put equal ressources in both Corruptor / Voidray, which obviously contradicts that corruptor "melt" to Voidrays. (if you know how to micro corruption spell properly, which most zerg obviously don't) http://www.youtube.com/user/Magiccube100#p/a/u/1/Ml-Iv43xXvc
One could also make the claim that Banelings are ALWAYS cost effective against a group of marines, yet they aren't, because of kiting and other micro involving outranging other units.
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Why wont blizzard retract certain nerfs that didnt work, when they finally do find a solution. Surely 4.5 range pylon could go back to 5 now that ramp sight is removed.
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On September 27 2011 09:01 Ihpares wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 04:57 freetgy wrote:On September 26 2011 21:40 Elean wrote:
Corruptors melt against void rays.
corruptors don't suck they are the most costeffective unit air2air, and also beat every Air Unit minimum 1:1 ressource wise And to prove your argument wrong, corrupters trade 1:1 ressource wise if you put equal ressources in both Corruptor / Voidray, which obviously contradicts that corruptor "melt" to Voidrays. (if you know how to micro corruption spell properly, which most zerg obviously don't) http://www.youtube.com/user/Magiccube100#p/a/u/1/Ml-Iv43xXvc One could also make the claim that Banelings are ALWAYS cost effective against a group of marines, yet they aren't, because of kiting and other micro involving outranging other units.
We are talking corrupter/void ray, not exactly the most micro intensive units.
They also have the same range so...
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The whole discussion about corruptors is a bit off I think. The reason vikings seem more effective is not because theyre so much better than corruptors. It's because the teran bio is way more effective that the roach hydra from zerg. If you would give zerg the vikings and terran the corruptors the fights would look about the same against collosus gateway balls. Because of this reason the only real way I see roach (hydra) corruptor being viable is to hold of 2 base collosus all ins. Or you have to be constantly trading efficiently wich is hard against protoss. Though if you go early ling infestor to pressure him before he has collosus then transition into roach corruptor to hold of any timing and then rush broodlords its viable. But still susceptable to timings. This is my thoughts on zvp right now. Meta-game might change but this is how it feels right now.
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EPT
