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United States6151 Posts
On September 26 2011 17:11 love4every1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:05 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. You also don't die from emp. You die from the follow up. Which is the same with storm. Any good storm will either punish the terran from entering close enough to attack, or delay the engagement. The difference is EMP isn't designed to kill. Storm is. Seeing as it does shield damage, which is basically health, I'd say it is very much is designed to kill. Also, I'm trying to gauge why you posted that? O_o
You said it yourself "You also don't die from EMP."
Storm is a spell designed to kill enemy units. EMP is a spell designed to neutralize enemy casters, and lessen the effectiveness of the Protoss army.
If we're comparing similar spells here, short of the AoE, Feedback is a closer spell to EMP than Storm is. However, that was not the intended design. EMP is not designed to be a killing blow, while Storm is, however EMP does its job easily, while any competent player can negate ~35%+ of the designed effectiveness of Storm.
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Is it just me or do immortals kick the holy hell out of any roach play at all now? I've lost several games to P where they haven't gotten any splash units, but have utilized a fuckton of immortals ( 6 or more).
And no, none of my armies in these games were more than 50% roach...
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United States6151 Posts
On September 26 2011 17:15 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 04:43 MeLo wrote:
My balance suggestions for Protoss:
Make an Observer buildable from the Nexus available after Warpgate is finished.
- Increase Observer build time from 40 to 70 seconds.
- Nerf it's pre upgrade speed.
- Remove permanent cloaking.
- Add an upgrade to the Robotics Bay to permanently cloak Observers (cost 50/50).
Case for:
- Allows Protoss to avoid Robo tech altogether without the risk of losing to Cloak.
- Gives Protoss the 5gate, Charge/Blink build, fast High Templars, Stargate builds to fight against 111s without being fucked over by Cloak Banshees.
- Protoss can now do early game Pylon at edge on bottom of cliff warp up Dark Templars to main which would effectively be their Worker harass/raid unit which is what they need and what Terran (Hellions) and Zergs (Mutalisks) have fairly early.
- Makes Blink Stalkers much better in PvP, especially vs "I will have more Collosus than you" builds.
Case against:
- 6-7gate allin vs Zerg becomes 10x stronger.
- Effectively ends Dark Templar rushes in PvP.
- 4gate in all 3 matchups will become stronger (though I think is incredibly weak right now).
Case again
That sounds like a nerf. No cloak, slower than it is now, 70 seconds? I don't know if it'll see anything before it dies. And Toss has what you suggested already: Hallucination. Hallucinated Pheonix does much better job scouting than your 'buffed' observer.
You're asking us to cut workers for 70 seconds for our only form of detection? No.
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On September 26 2011 17:17 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:15 usethis2 wrote:On September 24 2011 04:43 MeLo wrote:
My balance suggestions for Protoss:
Make an Observer buildable from the Nexus available after Warpgate is finished.
- Increase Observer build time from 40 to 70 seconds.
- Nerf it's pre upgrade speed.
- Remove permanent cloaking.
- Add an upgrade to the Robotics Bay to permanently cloak Observers (cost 50/50).
Case for:
- Allows Protoss to avoid Robo tech altogether without the risk of losing to Cloak.
- Gives Protoss the 5gate, Charge/Blink build, fast High Templars, Stargate builds to fight against 111s without being fucked over by Cloak Banshees.
- Protoss can now do early game Pylon at edge on bottom of cliff warp up Dark Templars to main which would effectively be their Worker harass/raid unit which is what they need and what Terran (Hellions) and Zergs (Mutalisks) have fairly early.
- Makes Blink Stalkers much better in PvP, especially vs "I will have more Collosus than you" builds.
Case against:
- 6-7gate allin vs Zerg becomes 10x stronger.
- Effectively ends Dark Templar rushes in PvP.
- 4gate in all 3 matchups will become stronger (though I think is incredibly weak right now).
Case again
That sounds like a nerf. No cloak, slower than it is now, 70 seconds? I don't know if it'll see anything before it dies. And Toss has what you suggested already: Hallucination. Hallucinated Pheonix does much better job scouting than your 'buffed' observer. You're asking us to cut workers for 70 seconds for our only form of detection? No.
Jesus. Do people read before quoting?
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But just because it isn't instantaneous doesn't mean you can kite it completely. One emp won't bring your whole army to half health, and neither will one storm for terran if you micro. But you are going to take damage, and seeing as it only takes 3 seconds in a storm to kill a marine, I think "chip away" isn't exactly a fair statement either. Also the damage is only "100% guaranteed" if it hits, same as storm. So storm has the potential to do massive damage, killing units outright, but at the worst protoss loses 30-50% hp.
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4713 Posts
I'm not working of multiple assumptions you are.
So, you plan to make multiple Warp Prisms with or without HT in them, or with a varying number of them, just to get 1 storm of?
Again, 7 vikings 1 shot a WP, and they do it from a range of 9 with a reload time of 2. That means you'll lose a WP every 2 seconds, starting from when the first is spotted and immediately shot down. Even if you send 4 WP they will all die in 6 seconds.
What are you really going to do? Trow away multiple WP empty or with just 1 HT just to trow him of? Those 7 vikings he build now start to become cost effective if you do that. Negating WP droping HT is in itself cost effective.
You are also assuming the terran is somehow an idiot and will just sit his army in place while you waltz in with the WP. If the terran is smart enough he will split his army into smaller clusters the same he would to to a baneling bomb, and at the same time he will have his vikings target fire your WP.
So do you plan to just trow away WP at him and risk storming nearly nothing while he eats away at your WP, while his ghosts work away on your HT on the ground, your sentries and your army?
The terran can also just sit back for a while and just avoid an engagement with your main Protoss ball if you happen to have colossus, however if you do happen to have colossus it takes just 13 vikings to 1 shot a colossus. How about if the terran just rounds up the number to 14 vikings, which incidentally is the exact number needed to 1 shot 2 WPs if he micro's well.
The thing is, you can't force the terran to engage if he doesn't want to, he will scan your army looking for a favorable window and he won't bite if he doesn't want to. Meanwhile the terran can force an engagement since he has the more mobile army, he can also poke much more effectively since his EMP destroys your effective HP and neutralizes your specialists while his vikings nibble away at your colossus and WP. You can only force an engagement if you force him into a corner, which no smart terran will let himself be put into, or if you forcefield his army, which won't happen since your sentries will be EMPed.
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United States6151 Posts
On September 26 2011 17:20 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:17 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:15 usethis2 wrote:On September 24 2011 04:43 MeLo wrote:
My balance suggestions for Protoss:
Make an Observer buildable from the Nexus available after Warpgate is finished.
- Increase Observer build time from 40 to 70 seconds.
- Nerf it's pre upgrade speed.
- Remove permanent cloaking.
- Add an upgrade to the Robotics Bay to permanently cloak Observers (cost 50/50).
Case for:
- Allows Protoss to avoid Robo tech altogether without the risk of losing to Cloak.
- Gives Protoss the 5gate, Charge/Blink build, fast High Templars, Stargate builds to fight against 111s without being fucked over by Cloak Banshees.
- Protoss can now do early game Pylon at edge on bottom of cliff warp up Dark Templars to main which would effectively be their Worker harass/raid unit which is what they need and what Terran (Hellions) and Zergs (Mutalisks) have fairly early.
- Makes Blink Stalkers much better in PvP, especially vs "I will have more Collosus than you" builds.
Case against:
- 6-7gate allin vs Zerg becomes 10x stronger.
- Effectively ends Dark Templar rushes in PvP.
- 4gate in all 3 matchups will become stronger (though I think is incredibly weak right now).
Case again
That sounds like a nerf. No cloak, slower than it is now, 70 seconds? I don't know if it'll see anything before it dies. And Toss has what you suggested already: Hallucination. Hallucinated Pheonix does much better job scouting than your 'buffed' observer. You're asking us to cut workers for 70 seconds for our only form of detection? No. Jesus. Do people read before quoting?
My reply was to the original post, I apologize for the confusion.
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On September 26 2011 17:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:11 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:05 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. You also don't die from emp. You die from the follow up. Which is the same with storm. Any good storm will either punish the terran from entering close enough to attack, or delay the engagement. The difference is EMP isn't designed to kill. Storm is. Seeing as it does shield damage, which is basically health, I'd say it is very much is designed to kill. Also, I'm trying to gauge why you posted that? O_o You said it yourself "You also don't die from EMP." Storm is a spell designed to kill enemy units. EMP is a spell designed to neutralize enemy casters, and lessen the effectiveness of the Protoss army. If we're comparing similar spells here, short of the AoE, Feedback is a closer spell to EMP than Storm is. However, that was not the intended design. EMP is not designed to be a killing blow, while Storm is, however EMP does its job easily, while any competent player can negate ~35%+ of the designed effectiveness of Storm.
What??
Just because it doesn't do the finishing blow doesn't mean it wasn't designed to kill. Seeing as it takes 100 shields, I would say that blizzard proooobably meant for it to be a damage dealer.
Also, you know 65% of storm is still 52 damage right? As in, the terran is basically dead. And just because protoss can't use storms competently doesn't mean that it's terrans fault. Two storms will stop every bio advance outright, if not killing it immediately. Emp stops advancing protoss.
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United States6151 Posts
On September 26 2011 17:23 love4every1 wrote:
But just because it isn't instantaneous doesn't mean you can kite it completely. One emp won't bring your whole army to half health, and neither will one storm for terran if you micro. But you are going to take damage, and seeing as it only takes 3 seconds in a storm to kill a marine, I think "chip away" isn't exactly a fair statement either. Also the damage is only "100% guaranteed" if it hits, same as storm. So storm has the potential to do massive damage, killing units outright, but at the worst protoss loses 30-50% hp.
Did you even read what I posted?
You're comparing two spells that are fundamentally different:
1) Area of Effect, Instantaneous, Not fatal
2) Area of Effect, Damage over Time, Fatal
If you want to compare the two, the first step is to either make EMP DoT, or make Storm instant, neither of which is going to happen.
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United States6151 Posts
On September 26 2011 17:28 love4every1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:11 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:05 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. You also don't die from emp. You die from the follow up. Which is the same with storm. Any good storm will either punish the terran from entering close enough to attack, or delay the engagement. The difference is EMP isn't designed to kill. Storm is. Seeing as it does shield damage, which is basically health, I'd say it is very much is designed to kill. Also, I'm trying to gauge why you posted that? O_o You said it yourself "You also don't die from EMP." Storm is a spell designed to kill enemy units. EMP is a spell designed to neutralize enemy casters, and lessen the effectiveness of the Protoss army. If we're comparing similar spells here, short of the AoE, Feedback is a closer spell to EMP than Storm is. However, that was not the intended design. EMP is not designed to be a killing blow, while Storm is, however EMP does its job easily, while any competent player can negate ~35%+ of the designed effectiveness of Storm. What?? Just because it doesn't do the finishing blow doesn't mean it wasn't designed to kill. Seeing as it takes 100 shields, I would say that blizzard proooobably meant for it to be a damage dealer. Also, you know 65% of storm is still 52 damage right? As in, the terran is basically dead. And just because protoss can't use storms competently doesn't mean that it's terrans fault. Two storms will stop every bio advance outright, if not killing it immediately. Emp stops advancing protoss.
If I shoot you in the heart, it's fatal, and will kill.
If I shoot you in the leg, unless I hit the artery, while it does damage to you, it's not going to kill you.
"Doing the finishing blow" is the act of killing, which EMP can NEVER do, in ANY engagement or scenario. That 52 hypothetical damage? You have units floating overhead that heal during, and after the Storm, Protoss does not have that luxury.
You're blaming Protoss players for ineffectively using Storm? Are you really that blind that you can say EVERY Terran player is smart enough to use EMP effectively, and the reason Protoss players can't use Storm as effectively is because of user error? Sorry, I can speak for the entire Protoss player-base when I apologize for our slow, defenseless, uncloaked, damage over time spellcaster isn't as effective as your cloaked, longer ranged, attacking, spammable, instantaneous spellcaster.
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On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells.
Storm has a guaranteed effect:
It does initial damage - usually around 20, because even if you storm while they are already running, you will hit them.
After that storm always has one of two effects:
1) It deals more damage.
2) It prevents damage as the opponent is running
So yes, the opponent can choose between eating damage and not dealing damage... but storms have a guaranteed effect.
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On September 26 2011 17:25 Destructicon wrote:
I'm not working of multiple assumptions you are.
So, you plan to make multiple Warp Prisms with or without HT in them, or with a varying number of them, just to get 1 storm of?
Again, 7 vikings 1 shot a WP, and they do it from a range of 9 with a reload time of 2. That means you'll lose a WP every 2 seconds, starting from when the first is spotted and immediately shot down. Even if you send 4 WP they will all die in 6 seconds.
What are you really going to do? Trow away multiple WP empty or with just 1 HT just to trow him of? Those 7 vikings he build now start to become cost effective if you do that. Negating WP droping HT is in itself cost effective.
You are also assuming the terran is somehow an idiot and will just sit his army in place while you waltz in with the WP. If the terran is smart enough he will split his army into smaller clusters the same he would to to a baneling bomb, and at the same time he will have his vikings target fire your WP.
So do you plan to just trow away WP at him and risk storming nearly nothing while he eats away at your WP, while his ghosts work away on your HT on the ground, your sentries and your army?
The terran can also just sit back for a while and just avoid an engagement with your main Protoss ball if you happen to have colossus, however if you do happen to have colossus it takes just 13 vikings to 1 shot a colossus. How about if the terran just rounds up the number to 14 vikings, which incidentally is the exact number needed to 1 shot 2 WPs if he micro's well.
The thing is, you can't force the terran to engage if he doesn't want to, he will scan your army looking for a favorable window and he won't bite if he doesn't want to. Meanwhile the terran can force an engagement since he has the more mobile army, he can also poke much more effectively since his EMP destroys your effective HP and neutralizes your specialists while his vikings nibble away at your colossus and WP. You can only force an engagement if you force him into a corner, which no smart terran will let himself be put into, or if you forcefield his army, which won't happen since your sentries will be EMPed.
I'm saying one storm changes the entire outcome of a battle.
Imagine this: You are going colossus. 3 warp prisms, each with HT = 750/450. 7 vikings 1050/525.
He can't emp your HT, they're in separate warp prisms.
If he gets too close trying to pick them off, he risks getting his vikings stormed from drop micro, or blink stalker'd to death.
And while I can't force him to engage, I can force him to disengage by landing storms that actually do what they are supposed to do: provide positional advantage. And even then, there are still ways to make him engage (ie, your army is tearing up his expansions faster than his marine/marauder is killing your buildings).
You don't have sentries, because they are a stupid unit cause they WILL get empd late game.
And I don't get how protoss says "risk storming nothing" when you'd only engage with warp prisms with the right opportunity, just like he'd only attack with the right opportunity? You're assuming the best circumstances with emp and the worst with storm. I assume they best of both.
In the six seconds you killed my warp prisms, I just finished doing 60 damage to your army with storm. If you microed out of the way to save your army, your viking are up for grabs and I kill them. I roflstomp you with colossus in my followup, and enjoy the extra ladder points.
?
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United States6151 Posts
On September 26 2011 17:38 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. Storm has a guaranteed effect: It does initial damage - usually around 20, because even if you storm while they are already running, you will hit them. After that storm always has one of two effects: 1) It deals more damage. 2) It prevents damage as the opponent is running So yes, the opponent can choose between eating damage and not dealing damage... but storms have a guaranteed effect.
The other two "similar" spells don't allow a choice, you either:
a) Disengage after taking the full effect of the spell
b) Continue to engage after taking the full effect of the spell.
Storm results in:
a) Disengaging after taking partial effects of the spell
b) Eating the full effect of the spell
c) Engaging after taking partial effects of the spell
See the difference?
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On September 26 2011 17:37 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:28 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:11 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:05 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. You also don't die from emp. You die from the follow up. Which is the same with storm. Any good storm will either punish the terran from entering close enough to attack, or delay the engagement. The difference is EMP isn't designed to kill. Storm is. Seeing as it does shield damage, which is basically health, I'd say it is very much is designed to kill. Also, I'm trying to gauge why you posted that? O_o You said it yourself "You also don't die from EMP." Storm is a spell designed to kill enemy units. EMP is a spell designed to neutralize enemy casters, and lessen the effectiveness of the Protoss army. If we're comparing similar spells here, short of the AoE, Feedback is a closer spell to EMP than Storm is. However, that was not the intended design. EMP is not designed to be a killing blow, while Storm is, however EMP does its job easily, while any competent player can negate ~35%+ of the designed effectiveness of Storm. What?? Just because it doesn't do the finishing blow doesn't mean it wasn't designed to kill. Seeing as it takes 100 shields, I would say that blizzard proooobably meant for it to be a damage dealer. Also, you know 65% of storm is still 52 damage right? As in, the terran is basically dead. And just because protoss can't use storms competently doesn't mean that it's terrans fault. Two storms will stop every bio advance outright, if not killing it immediately. Emp stops advancing protoss. If I shoot you in the heart, it's fatal, and will kill. If I shoot you in the leg, unless I hit the artery, while it does damage to you, it's not going to kill you. "Doing the finishing blow" is the act of killing, which EMP can NEVER do, in ANY engagement or scenario. That 52 hypothetical damage? You have units floating overhead that heal during, and after the Storm, Protoss does not have that luxury. You're blaming Protoss players for ineffectively using Storm? Are you really that blind that you can say EVERY Terran player is smart enough to use EMP effectively, and the reason Protoss players can't use Storm as effectively is because of user error? Sorry, I can speak for the entire Protoss player-base when I apologize for our slow, defenseless, uncloaked, damage over time spellcaster isn't as effective as your cloaked, longer ranged, attacking, spammable, instantaneous spellcaster.
Probably because you didn't have the micro to pull off using warp prisms in your play, or more likely haven't even tried it yet.
Those units overhead? The cost army supply and money. And guess what?? They get the crap beaten out of them with storm too. And if you're really going to pull that card, do you want me to bring up the fact that you regenerate any lost health to emp over time, the same as medivacs, except without having to buy units?
And I'll give you that it isn't the killing blow, but I'll bring up a better point: why does your point even matter? So emp and storm have different uses. The units aren't designed to be identical.
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On September 26 2011 17:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:38 Thrombozyt wrote:On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. Storm has a guaranteed effect: It does initial damage - usually around 20, because even if you storm while they are already running, you will hit them. After that storm always has one of two effects: 1) It deals more damage. 2) It prevents damage as the opponent is running So yes, the opponent can choose between eating damage and not dealing damage... but storms have a guaranteed effect. The other two "similar" spells don't allow a choice, you either: a) Disengage after taking the full effect of the spell b) Continue to engage after taking the full effect of the spell. Storm results in: a) Disengaging after taking partial effects of the spell b) Eating the full effect of the spell c) Engaging after taking partial effects of the spell See the difference?
Yes, I do.
Storm will do the same percentage damage to my units in one second that emp will do, except storm has the option of doing even more damage and providing positional advantage. So... ?
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United States6151 Posts
On September 26 2011 17:46 love4every1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:37 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:28 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:11 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:05 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. You also don't die from emp. You die from the follow up. Which is the same with storm. Any good storm will either punish the terran from entering close enough to attack, or delay the engagement. The difference is EMP isn't designed to kill. Storm is. Seeing as it does shield damage, which is basically health, I'd say it is very much is designed to kill. Also, I'm trying to gauge why you posted that? O_o You said it yourself "You also don't die from EMP." Storm is a spell designed to kill enemy units. EMP is a spell designed to neutralize enemy casters, and lessen the effectiveness of the Protoss army. If we're comparing similar spells here, short of the AoE, Feedback is a closer spell to EMP than Storm is. However, that was not the intended design. EMP is not designed to be a killing blow, while Storm is, however EMP does its job easily, while any competent player can negate ~35%+ of the designed effectiveness of Storm. What?? Just because it doesn't do the finishing blow doesn't mean it wasn't designed to kill. Seeing as it takes 100 shields, I would say that blizzard proooobably meant for it to be a damage dealer. Also, you know 65% of storm is still 52 damage right? As in, the terran is basically dead. And just because protoss can't use storms competently doesn't mean that it's terrans fault. Two storms will stop every bio advance outright, if not killing it immediately. Emp stops advancing protoss. If I shoot you in the heart, it's fatal, and will kill. If I shoot you in the leg, unless I hit the artery, while it does damage to you, it's not going to kill you. "Doing the finishing blow" is the act of killing, which EMP can NEVER do, in ANY engagement or scenario. That 52 hypothetical damage? You have units floating overhead that heal during, and after the Storm, Protoss does not have that luxury. You're blaming Protoss players for ineffectively using Storm? Are you really that blind that you can say EVERY Terran player is smart enough to use EMP effectively, and the reason Protoss players can't use Storm as effectively is because of user error? Sorry, I can speak for the entire Protoss player-base when I apologize for our slow, defenseless, uncloaked, damage over time spellcaster isn't as effective as your cloaked, longer ranged, attacking, spammable, instantaneous spellcaster. Probably because you didn't have the micro to pull off using warp prisms in your play, or more likely haven't even tried it yet. Those units overhead? The cost army supply and money. And guess what?? They get the crap beaten out of them with storm too. And if you're really going to pull that card, do you want me to bring up the fact that you regenerate any lost health to emp over time, the same as medivacs, except without having to buy units? And I'll give you that it isn't the killing blow, but I'll bring up a better point: why does your point even matter? So emp and storm have different uses. The units aren't designed to be identical.
The entire point I'm making is that they AREN'T identical.
Why should I be forced to devote extra APM to Warp Prism dropping, unit selecting, and Storm casting when you just hit Shift + E and blanket my whole army?
Protoss units don't regenerate shields in combat, while Medivacs heal damage at a greater rate during combat. I'm sure if Protoss could invest Army Supply and Money into a regenerating unit they would do so in every matchup.
The point I'm trying to make is that Storm and EMP are two completely different spells, and one is significantly less effective, while the INTENDED DESIGN is for them to be very close to equally effective.
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4713 Posts
I only see you assuming the best case scenario for your Protoss point of view. The one big thing you keep forgetting is that Vikings have a range of 9. They can go in, snipe the WP closest to the front and then get out before you're storm can catch them.
Because of the long range of vikings they can even snipe of of range of stalkers, and if the stalkers risk going too close or blinking forward they get EMPed in the face and a group of marauders with stim jumps forward to kill them.
The Vikings will keep doing this until you have no more WP left and all the HT are on the ground.
You're also assuming 1 storm will change the outcome, if the terran has his army split up in anticipation of a storm drop on his infantry, 1 storm will do noth and you've lost a fleet of WP. If you think storming vikings is going to get results you are mistaken, vikings have big range and can also be repaired.
The fact of the matter is, you need 2 or 3 storms on the main terran bio ball, you don't want position with it, you want it to do DPS, and this is because the terran bio ball is so cost effective, so strong together and so well supported by medivacs, that it can destroy the basic GW force of zealots and stalkers.
Again once your Colossus is dead, HT neutralized and WP destroyed the terran can force the engagement and win.
I find it funny that you mentioned threatening a terran's natural so he can't run away. Terran's army is more mobile, its more likely he can chose to fight you somewhere in the middle so he has a place to fall back on, at least any smart terran will do so. Its more likely he will force the engagement on the protoss by constantly dropping on the protoss' bases and killing workers/buildings.
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how can you possibly argue against the fact that the ghost is too good of a unit with its ability to hard counter so many units ( meaning all toss units except colossi ) and tier3 zergs :|
I found kinda ridiculous that the solution to prevent carpet emp ( yeah cause terrans dont just build one or two ghosts eh ) is to ask for more micro to toss army than they already have.
In addition to spread the units in order to reduce massive damage of emps and making the army weaker in the process, toss should now deal with 1 or 2 WP micro ?!?
Ghost needs to be nerfed in some way, rather not taking shield with energy at the same time or a change in the spell : instant energy drain but same kind of effect as storm for the shield so at least toss army can be microed out of shield draining. Range can be reduced too to 9 at least.
I dont see what can be done on Templar side other than increasing its speed or acceleration.
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United States6151 Posts
On September 26 2011 17:49 love4every1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:38 Thrombozyt wrote:On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. Storm has a guaranteed effect: It does initial damage - usually around 20, because even if you storm while they are already running, you will hit them. After that storm always has one of two effects: 1) It deals more damage. 2) It prevents damage as the opponent is running So yes, the opponent can choose between eating damage and not dealing damage... but storms have a guaranteed effect. The other two "similar" spells don't allow a choice, you either: a) Disengage after taking the full effect of the spell b) Continue to engage after taking the full effect of the spell. Storm results in: a) Disengaging after taking partial effects of the spell b) Eating the full effect of the spell c) Engaging after taking partial effects of the spell See the difference? Yes, I do. Storm will do the same percentage damage to my units in one second that emp will do, except storm has the option of doing even more damage and providing positional advantage. So... ?
At this point I'm going to stop acknowledging your posts because it's obvious now that you're trolling.
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On September 26 2011 17:50 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:46 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:37 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:28 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:11 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On September 26 2011 17:05 love4every1 wrote:On September 26 2011 16:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
....if only Storm did guaranteed effects like Fungal and EMP, it might be worth comparing the two.
You can't micro out of EMP, or Fungal, but you can micro out of Storm. I think that's the biggest discrepancy between the spells. You also don't die from emp. You die from the follow up. Which is the same with storm. Any good storm will either punish the terran from entering close enough to attack, or delay the engagement. The difference is EMP isn't designed to kill. Storm is. Seeing as it does shield damage, which is basically health, I'd say it is very much is designed to kill. Also, I'm trying to gauge why you posted that? O_o You said it yourself "You also don't die from EMP." Storm is a spell designed to kill enemy units. EMP is a spell designed to neutralize enemy casters, and lessen the effectiveness of the Protoss army. If we're comparing similar spells here, short of the AoE, Feedback is a closer spell to EMP than Storm is. However, that was not the intended design. EMP is not designed to be a killing blow, while Storm is, however EMP does its job easily, while any competent player can negate ~35%+ of the designed effectiveness of Storm. What?? Just because it doesn't do the finishing blow doesn't mean it wasn't designed to kill. Seeing as it takes 100 shields, I would say that blizzard proooobably meant for it to be a damage dealer. Also, you know 65% of storm is still 52 damage right? As in, the terran is basically dead. And just because protoss can't use storms competently doesn't mean that it's terrans fault. Two storms will stop every bio advance outright, if not killing it immediately. Emp stops advancing protoss. If I shoot you in the heart, it's fatal, and will kill. If I shoot you in the leg, unless I hit the artery, while it does damage to you, it's not going to kill you. "Doing the finishing blow" is the act of killing, which EMP can NEVER do, in ANY engagement or scenario. That 52 hypothetical damage? You have units floating overhead that heal during, and after the Storm, Protoss does not have that luxury. You're blaming Protoss players for ineffectively using Storm? Are you really that blind that you can say EVERY Terran player is smart enough to use EMP effectively, and the reason Protoss players can't use Storm as effectively is because of user error? Sorry, I can speak for the entire Protoss player-base when I apologize for our slow, defenseless, uncloaked, damage over time spellcaster isn't as effective as your cloaked, longer ranged, attacking, spammable, instantaneous spellcaster. Probably because you didn't have the micro to pull off using warp prisms in your play, or more likely haven't even tried it yet. Those units overhead? The cost army supply and money. And guess what?? They get the crap beaten out of them with storm too. And if you're really going to pull that card, do you want me to bring up the fact that you regenerate any lost health to emp over time, the same as medivacs, except without having to buy units? And I'll give you that it isn't the killing blow, but I'll bring up a better point: why does your point even matter? So emp and storm have different uses. The units aren't designed to be identical. The entire point I'm making is that they AREN'T identical. Why should I be forced to devote extra APM to Warp Prism dropping, unit selecting, and Storm casting when you just hit Shift + E and blanket my whole army? Protoss units don't regenerate shields in combat, while Medivacs heal damage at a greater rate during combat. I'm sure if Protoss could invest Army Supply and Money into a regenerating unit they would do so in every matchup. The point I'm trying to make is that Storm and EMP are two completely different spells, and one is significantly less effective, while the INTENDED DESIGN is for them to be very close to equally effective.
You would ue the extra APM because though you know emp is easier, the reward for storm is much, much greater. As in, you would do it because you would want to win. Mark my words, you're going to see warp prisms ht play in pro games in the not too distant future.
Healing a unit only works if it isn't dead.
Also, those spells aren't designed to be equally effective. The units are.
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EPT
