EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 120
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:41 Belial88 wrote: When I see Protoss just 4 gate in the GSL, I have no sympathy with people who say "Protoss UP look so many knocked out of GSL unfair!". Lol, I don't think any rational Protoss player would expect sympathy after losing while 4-gating. | ||
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MeLo
Australia192 Posts
Make an Observer buildable from the Nexus available after Warpgate is finished. - Increase Observer build time from 40 to 70 seconds. - Nerf it's pre upgrade speed. - Remove permanent cloaking. - Add an upgrade to the Robotics Bay to permanently cloak Observers (cost 50/50). Case for: - Allows Protoss to avoid Robo tech altogether without the risk of losing to Cloak. - Gives Protoss the 5gate, Charge/Blink build, fast High Templars, Stargate builds to fight against 111s without being fucked over by Cloak Banshees. - Protoss can now do early game Pylon at edge on bottom of cliff warp up Dark Templars to main which would effectively be their Worker harass/raid unit which is what they need and what Terran (Hellions) and Zergs (Mutalisks) have fairly early. - Makes Blink Stalkers much better in PvP, especially vs "I will have more Collosus than you" builds. Case against: - 6-7gate allin vs Zerg becomes 10x stronger. - Effectively ends Dark Templar rushes in PvP. - 4gate in all 3 matchups will become stronger (though I think is incredibly weak right now). Case again | ||
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FilmNoir
United States44 Posts
4 range marines would allow stalkers to kite properly to stall and weaken the 1/1/1 with micro, in addition, it also adds to the time window the protoss can create by kitting. And if the terran chooses to skip the upgrade, you then had more efficient zealots due to the one less range marines will be attacking them. This helps relieve the problem of marines by either strengthening stalkers and zealots against marines during the 1/1/1, even with stim (though not as great once stim is done) or giving protoss extra time to prepare for the push, but does not change anything late game. This change would strengthen protoss early defense and therefore to combat it breaking offense, I would propose marines gain +2 range in bunkers before range upgrade (possibly reduced back to +1 after research if possible, if not then so be it) so they maintain the 6 they currently have and don't get steamrolled by stalker pushes against bunkers. It may also turn out to be problematic against early game lings since kiting will be harder but researching range should be easy enough by the time roach pushes come out, not changing anything there. Just my thought on the situation considering it slightly weakens marines early game, but only for early game, and therefore, doesn't shatter the game as we know it. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 25 2011 12:37 kofman wrote: They should make stalkers a more dps unit rather than tank unit. Right now, stalkers do very little damage for their cost, but are durable. I feel that making stalkers a more fragile damage dealing unit, like the hydralisk, would make gateway units more usable vs 111. Protoss has the best tank in the game with zealots, but all that tanking is usually wasted because stalkers just don't hurt very much. Stalkers were designed that was because the intent was for immortals to fill that main role in your army. They were also made out of the gateway at that point. Blizzard realized that it was too strong in that role, so they moved it to the robo, but they're still using their outdated design for the stalker. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On September 25 2011 12:43 Whitewing wrote: Stalkers were designed that was because the intent was for immortals to fill that main role in your army. They were also made out of the gateway at that point. Blizzard realized that it was too strong in that role, so they moved it to the robo, but they're still using their outdated design for the stalker. That's very interesting. I think a lot of problems stem from them completely scrapping most of their ideas for toss. Like the tempest, that had those special shields and used shuriken to deal damage. They scrapped it and brought back the carrier, which now sees use only in 1 in 250 PvZs. While coming up with new cool ideas is fun, making sure they fit the game they built is another story, and toss units at the moment just seem to step all over themselves (haha colossus joke) | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:11 ThirdDegree wrote: I had a thought about both EMP and the 1-1-1. I play toss and am NOT trying to start a flame war, I would just like some terran feedback on these suggestions. How drastically would these changes alter your builds/play etc? 1) Make the factory require a barracks w/ tech lab. My thought was that this might delay the factory build enough to allow toss to get some units to defend. 2) EMP is a drain spell for sheilds only, rather than instant. Energy drain will still be instant. Basically allow the recipient to try to split units and mitigate the damage, similarly to what can be done with storms. This would also reward players with good unit control. These are just idle thoughts I had today, and curious as to what everyone thinks. 1) NO NO NO. This would make it next to IMPOSSIBLE to scout whether a Terran was going 1-1-1 or a Rax opener, and would only slightly weaken 1-1-1. 2) Very slight improvement, but not enough to make a difference. I'm going to hold to my belief that the first, most necessary fix for Protoss is to switch the positions of Guardian Shield and Hallucination. Allow for one quick Hallu that can scout the Terran and allow a proper response. It'll still be hard to hold off a lot of Terran pressure and there are no guarantees about the lategame, but it's a definite improvement. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 25 2011 12:55 Fig wrote: That's very interesting. I think a lot of problems stem from them completely scrapping most of their ideas for toss. Like the tempest, that had those special shields and used shuriken to deal damage. They scrapped it and brought back the carrier, which now sees use only in 1 in 250 PvZs. While coming up with new cool ideas is fun, making sure they fit the game they built is another story, and toss units at the moment just seem to step all over themselves (haha colossus joke) Most of the issues with the game are from them trying to stick to an antiquated design. Marauders, for example, were put into the game because of the roach, which at the time had 2 armor, cost one supply, and healed ridiculously fast at all times. To be able to beat them, terran needed a unit that could do a lot of damage to armored quickly while taking the hits that roaches threw. Roaches were also a lair tech unit. So terran got the marauder, and protoss got the immortal, which does huge damage to armored to it could deal with the roach. Other design flaws that may be non-obvious if you haven't been watching the whole development of the game: Reapers initially had land mines similar to vultures from brood war, and were going to fill that role for mech (notice there is no land mine unit now). Protoss had this unit called the Soul Hunter that got stronger the more enemies it killed, by getting more attacks (effectively going from single fire to AoE) which got pulled as a result of being an awful unit design, but there was no unit to replace the role it was supposed to fill particularly effectively. It was supposed to fill the role of a mid-tier unit that was strong against bio armies but weak against mech and robotic armies, and was supposed to be the main anti-air of your ground army, not stalkers. Carriers had the ability to create temporary units called escorts that lasted for a short amount of time, but significantly boosted the DPS of the carrier in important situations. This was realized to be stupid, and was pulled, but without really compensating the carrier for it. The Sentry was an add-in later on, after scrapping several spellcaster ideas. The initial plan for Protoss was to have a dark templar ship be the second caster along with high templars, called the Star Relic. This ship had a cloaking field like an arbiter, and it was the unit that could cast hallucinate and a spell called Detonate. You'll notice that the fleet beacon tech is extremely bare, the original plan actually had a lot of stuff come from the fleet beacon (Mothership, Star Relic, Tempest, and upgrades for the phoenix, void rays, mothership and star relics). Archons, initially, were also called Twilight Archons, and had feedback. Other interesting changes: Ghosts had this ability called Drop Pod, where you could load units into the Ghost Academy (then called Shadow Ops) and then the Ghost could do a calldown at the target location like a nuke and the units would land there. The diamondback was intended as a multiplayer unit that could shoot air units and ground units and would slow enemies down that it hit, obviously that was overpowered. It also had this ability where you could spend 5 seconds charging a shot and then fire a super ultra attack. The Queen was originally supposed to be this super defender for the zerg base, where it could upgrade itself to bigger and stronger queen forms at lair and hive tech, and would learn new defensive spells. They had an AoE damage spell called Razor Swarm at lair tech, and had an ability to turn the larva at a hatchery into strong fighters for a short amount of time as a last ditch defense, which could also morph into units but at a reduced cost. You only got one queen total between all your bases, and it didn't spawn extra larva. It also built your defensive structures, and could teleport from base to base after it got upgraded, and at hive tech could make all your buildings grow temporary turrets, as well as an ability to poison small areas of creep to kill units on it. Also, originally the Ultralisk was going to be a unit called the Omegalisk with bit spiky tentacles that would hit nearby clumps of enemies. But despite all of these massive changes from their initial vision of the game (and a bunch more I left out), they haven't really redesigned many of the units or their function to deal with the fact that their roles have changed. | ||
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love4every1
United States37 Posts
With the increase in warp prism health, having multiple warp prisms with high templar makes the risk/reward for getting off a storm vs. getting emp'd more even. Terrans can still scan ahead and locate the ht's before engaging, but with multiple prisms and some basic dropship micro Protoss should have the advantage as far as getting off at least one storm, if not all they want. Thoughts? | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
Fungal disposed of smaller, weak units or air that rely on movement Infested Terran are an amazing meat shield and make short work of slow units with heavy hits, like tanks or immortals, as well as being strong against heavy air and buildings. Neural Parasite countered the very strong heavy hitters and massive units. In the end this resulted in literally every single unit (except ARGUABLY HT/Ghost), being murdered by infestors. No unit should have that kind of power... THAT BEING SAID.... Terran still has a unit like that. The Ghost. Now granted, the Ghost isn't as super powerful as the infestor was, because they require a little more backup, but none-the-less, when EMP does severe damage to everything the Protoss has, and virtually every unit the Zerg has is countered by Snipe, as well as it being able to shut down the specialist units that the Protoss and Zerg rely on. It is so dumb that Terran STILL has access to this unit in it's full power. | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
Like... look at TvT for example. Why is this the most common matchup where "comebacks" occur? It's because you have defensive abilities like bunkers and siege tanks, you could have less units, but the Terran defensive abilities allow a player to switch to defense mode and re-macro. What does Protoss have? You lose an engagement, you lose the game; there is no defense mode. I can see why K.A. was OP on the offensive, but it was the perfect defensive ability. That imo is what the game lacks. The fight SHOULD be happening in the 'no mans land' battle's taking place in or near a players base should have defenders advantage via terrain and building placement, along with a slew of defensive abilities given to units. | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
On September 26 2011 06:47 love4every1 wrote: Observation: HT's buffed in latest patch. With the increase in warp prism health, having multiple warp prisms with high templar makes the risk/reward for getting off a storm vs. getting emp'd more even. Terrans can still scan ahead and locate the ht's before engaging, but with multiple prisms and some basic dropship micro Protoss should have the advantage as far as getting off at least one storm, if not all they want. Thoughts? My thoughts are EMP should be given to the Raven. And also redesign the raven and make it more circular. Also, remove auto turrets, seeker missile, and Point defense drone, and give it some type of DoT spell that deals AoE damage and causes targetted unit to follow it's friendly units. Also, give it a spell that gives some type of shield to selected unit. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 26 2011 06:47 love4every1 wrote: Observation: HT's buffed in latest patch. With the increase in warp prism health, having multiple warp prisms with high templar makes the risk/reward for getting off a storm vs. getting emp'd more even. Terrans can still scan ahead and locate the ht's before engaging, but with multiple prisms and some basic dropship micro Protoss should have the advantage as far as getting off at least one storm, if not all they want. Thoughts? there's still the glaring issue of ghosts being way too good against protoss in general. in the ghost, you have an ability akin to storm and a hard counter to the high templar. simply mitigating them damage from ghosts doesn't change the fact that emps on one's army are still going to be great, and that warp prism play gives terran a huge positional advantage and is extremely risky. it's like this: if you succeed, you get storms off an fight an even battle with the terran army (don't forget, you invested in those HTs.) if you fail, then you lose ~1000gas of units that did nothing, and you therefore lose the game. the problem is that one storm on marines never wins the game in real scenarios, but one decisive emp often does, and since they're so spammable, it's really easy to get that critical EMP on sentries before they ff/gshield or on exposed HTs. The ghost has no counter and is good in every single situation. the presence of warp prisms does not making having ghosts any worse. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On September 26 2011 09:09 CellTech wrote: My thoughts are EMP should be given to the Raven. And also redesign the raven and make it more circular. Also, remove auto turrets, seeker missile, and Point defense drone, and give it some type of DoT spell that deals AoE damage and causes targetted unit to follow it's friendly units. Also, give it a spell that gives some type of shield to selected unit. Sounds cool, let's give it a new name too, how about the Vessel of Science? That unit is going to be soo original and NEW. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
With that, more defender advantage for protoss, a nexus with high range being less proned to EMPs, no more "IMBA FORCEIFLEDSS GRRR" from zerg/terran players (except if you proxy nexus, um...;D), a more interesting PvP where you don't have to build sentry for defense but just have to manage your chrono a bit. And better gateway units against terran bio. Warpgate may need to be tweaked to prevent 1gas 4gate against zerg and terran maybe? Not that it's so strong atm. What do you think of that? Edit: Just to be clear, I love mah sentry in offense too (;D) and throw forcefields all around, so it's just suggestions, not whines. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On September 26 2011 09:20 Mehukannu wrote: Sounds cool, let's give it a new name too, how about the Vessel of Science? That unit is going to be soo original and NEW. You mean balanced and fair? Because that's what it was in the last game. | ||
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love4every1
United States37 Posts
On September 26 2011 09:18 Shiori wrote: there's still the glaring issue of ghosts being way too good against protoss in general. in the ghost, you have an ability akin to storm and a hard counter to the high templar. simply mitigating them damage from ghosts doesn't change the fact that emps on one's army are still going to be great, and that warp prism play gives terran a huge positional advantage and is extremely risky. it's like this: if you succeed, you get storms off an fight an even battle with the terran army (don't forget, you invested in those HTs.) if you fail, then you lose ~1000gas of units that did nothing, and you therefore lose the game. the problem is that one storm on marines never wins the game in real scenarios, but one decisive emp often does, and since they're so spammable, it's really easy to get that critical EMP on sentries before they ff/gshield or on exposed HTs. The ghost has no counter and is good in every single situation. the presence of warp prisms does not making having ghosts any worse. I disagree. If emp when it works is too effective, then storm when it works is too effective. As far as one decisive emp winning a game, that is true... Only when the main damage dealing units are clumped, i.e. the high templar. Using the warp prism to get in range of the ghosts allows the templar to spread out and either feedback and kill a ghost or storm before they die. Feedback is instant, emp is not and snipe requires two shots. Further putting the edge in the protoss' favor is the fact with multiple warp prisms, the terran does not know which prism you are dropping HT out of, so protoss should always be able to get either a feedback or storm off, potentially without HT losses. I don't see how using warp prisms provide the terran with unreasonable positional advantage, but I would like to hear your response because I probably just haven't thought of it. Also the investing argument doesn't work unless you apply it to both sides. Ghosts are definitely an investment for terran as well. I'm not sure of the exact figures, but it seems that ghosts should cost less in the long run because HT have the ability to one shot them or at the very least remove all their energy. The ghost does have a counter; it just so happens that it is the counter to it's counter. And so is the reverse true. It's a very unique and interesting problem, and I think blizzard has actually managed to fix it, and we'll see greater HT use in the future. Or, you know, more QQing. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 26 2011 12:21 love4every1 wrote: I disagree. If emp when it works is too effective, then storm when it works is too effective. As far as one decisive emp winning a game, that is true... Only when the main damage dealing units are clumped, i.e. the high templar. Using the warp prism to get in range of the ghosts allows the templar to spread out and either feedback and kill a ghost or storm before they die. Feedback is instant, emp is not and snipe requires two shots. Further putting the edge in the protoss' favor is the fact with multiple warp prisms, the terran does not know which prism you are dropping HT out of, so protoss should always be able to get either a feedback or storm off, potentially without HT losses. I don't see how using warp prisms provide the terran with unreasonable positional advantage, but I would like to hear your response because I probably just haven't thought of it. Also the investing argument doesn't work unless you apply it to both sides. Ghosts are definitely an investment for terran as well. I'm not sure of the exact figures, but it seems that ghosts should cost less in the long run because HT have the ability to one shot them or at the very least remove all their energy. The ghost does have a counter; it just so happens that it is the counter to it's counter. And so is the reverse true. It's a very unique and interesting problem, and I think blizzard has actually managed to fix it, and we'll see greater HT use in the future. Or, you know, more QQing. Storm is not "too effective" because it is never possible to land a full storm except by doughnuting the enemy with forcefields. emp is effective because it has a larger aoe, is instant, and, on average, does more damage. it's actually pretty rare for storm to outright "kill" something, so that argument is moot anyway. feedback isn't terribly effective against ghosts either, because emp is such a long range spell. furthermore, feedbacking ghosts doesn't usually kill them (they're not infestors, after all) and means you have fewer storms. the problem here is that the ghost has the ability to counter casters and counter protoss compositions in general with just 1 spell. feedback is actually pretty terrible against ghosts in general. if you're using a warp prism to get near them to feedback, then chances are those high templars are dead meat anyway and some emps will go off anyway. as for getting multiple prisms, i think it's just a bad strat. it's a mineral dump which basically just consists of you pumping more and more resources into a few storms being effective. what if they aren't? you lose. what if you over-invest? storm is great but it's not actually as strong as it seems. a critical emp is 100x better than a well-placed storm, simply because the damage cannot be mitigated after it hits. the other fact is that when protoss gets high templar, they do that as a composition choice. in signing those templar off to use feedback or sit in a warp prism, you're diminishing the actual core army. since templar are basically the highest tier units in any protoss comp (except ultra-late game) then the terran can very easily just kill your ground forces. even WITH STORM, terrans are quite able to break even with protoss. if we do the warp prism trick, we will at best break even with a competent terran (and usually will not make even that) which is a huge issue. it's simply not possible to get a lot of ghosts, see the opponents composition, act a millisecond too late, and lose. emp outranges everything and is actually far more devastating to protoss than storm is to terran. why? because it nullifies protoss's two racial advantages: energy and shields. the sentry is literally the life of protoss armies. if you emp them, we have several hundred gas tied up in useless units. but it gets better. that same spell doubles as a larger-aoe storm that works better against protoss than storm ever could. you see, protoss units lose cost-for-cost to terran units and have a lower dps in general. we rely on the sentry/gateway composition coupled with high health/shield units in order to stand our ground (and i'd argue that this is a flawed concept in itself, but so it is). EMP nullifies both of these things. that's the problem. high templar just do more damage. they're expensive and, while they work well against terran t1 as a t3 unit should, they are not game-changing in a conventional sense. storm is great, but it's essentially an aoe attack that can be dodged for 50%+ of its damage. EMP is something which gives a definitive advantage in battle no matter what it hits. as for the high templar being the counter to the ghost, that's just silly. it's a counter to the ghost in the same way that zealots counter marine/marauder. they're supposed to, and theoretically there are situations in which they could, but it's far easier for the ghost to kill the HT than vice versa. furthermore, ghosts aren't a risky investment and can't really be made useless except by other ghosts. feedback, in general, is a pretty average spell which pales in comparison to the anti-caster spells terran gets. i actually don't have a problem with the fact that EMP is good against HTs. I think that's great. the ghost should be an anti-caster unit. EMP should not affect shields. At all. the ghost should be situational just like hts are, and just like infestors are starting to be. when you see your opponent teching to templar, you should smartly decide to get ghosts. you should not be rewarded for blindly teching to a unit that's good against everything. if the protoss doesn't get HTs, and you have ghosts, their effectiveness should be reduced. and before anyone complains about chargelot archon, terrans were beating that composition long before they discovered how good the ghost is. so in summary: make emp only drain energy. then it's equally good against protoss and zerg (it's sad that a unit counters specifically an entire race). it would also probably be beneficial to reduce the range to 9 to bring it in line with the other aoe spells, but that's not as important. basically, terran should not be able to do a 2-for-1 with EMP. it's either energy or shields. not both. and i think it would be better for it to drain energy rather than shields, simply because it makes more sense for the ghost as an anti-caster. since terran units are already so dps-heavy, they don't need a burst-damage spell the way protoss does (and to a lesser extent zerg). the balance in this regard is asymmetric. honestly, there's nothing balanced about the ghost right now; pretending otherwise is just silly and i think everyone pretty much knows that. it's way too versatile and can totally change the game in 1 second. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 26 2011 08:58 CellTech wrote: Protoss NEEDS the Khaydarin Amulet. Protoss have no defensive ability. Like... look at TvT for example. Why is this the most common matchup where "comebacks" occur? It's because you have defensive abilities like bunkers and siege tanks, you could have less units, but the Terran defensive abilities allow a player to switch to defense mode and re-macro. What does Protoss have? You lose an engagement, you lose the game; there is no defense mode. I can see why K.A. was OP on the offensive, but it was the perfect defensive ability. That imo is what the game lacks. The fight SHOULD be happening in the 'no mans land' battle's taking place in or near a players base should have defenders advantage via terrain and building placement, along with a slew of defensive abilities given to units. Khaydarin Amulet was too good for defense in combination with Warp-in ... Protoss were unharrassable without needing to resort to a lot of cannons (which ARE a defenders advantage if you build them). Sure the opponent could build them too in a PvP, but against Zerg and Terrans they are the defenders advantage. | ||
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