Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 119

On September 22 2011 04:54 QTIP. wrote:


Hey man -

I realized my post was incorrect. If I include Charge / Blink, then MM needs Medivacs as well.

To address your points.

1) This is not necessarily true. Many Protoss' are so scared of MMMG timings that they skip upgrades until they are transitioning into taking a third base. The emphasis is to get out as many units as possible. I do not feel that Protoss is almost always ahead in attack and armor. Yes we have chronoboost but that does not mean that adding upgrading 2 Forges off two base is safe. The counter to MMG timings is to get a shit-ton of units. Since you're gonna get EMP'd anyway, you need the extra units to make up the difference.

2) MM+ Stim requires Micro. Yes. So does a GW Ball. You need to forcefield, target fire marauders with stalkers, pull back Zealots once they are up against the forcefield. Save as many sentries as possible (100 gas you are saving). There's no point in getting in to an argument of which is "harder" to do, everyone has their own opinions.

3) Is a somewhat pointless statement. If Protoss does not place perfect forcefields or misses just 1 forcefield, engages with Zealots in an improper position, forgets Guardian shield, gets caught in a bad concave, then they will get slaughtered by the MM ball. This takes place very often in my games, a Terran will constantly try to bait me into wasting / bad forcefields. We both know that it all comes down to the engagement -- if I fuck up I die. If he fucks up he dies. It goes both ways.

Anyway, what I really meant to say was... GW Units with Charge/Blink are NOT cost effective vs an equal Supply MMM ball, unless you can get extremely favorable engagements.

On September 22 2011 08:02 kappadevin wrote:
The other thing that is a real problem for protoss is that you get locked into a tech path very easily, and in order to change your tech path, it takes a lot of time and resources to do so. Both Colossi and HTs not only require their own unique building, but also require an expensive upgrade before either are at their maximum capacity (Storm/Thermal Lance). If you compare this to the other two races, it doesn't match. Thors and Ghosts both require a unique tech building to build, but do not require any upgrades to be effective (250MM Cannon is pretty useless 98% of the time and Cloak isn't required for ghosts but is a nice late game boost to an already strong unit).

If they are going to keep HTs and Colossi late tech units, then protoss needs a stronger early/midgame. If they moved WG to the Twilight Council, then they would have much more room to play around with buffing Gateway units without worrying about breaking the early game pressure for PvZ. It really is, as many others have said, the most logical fix to this whole thing,

On September 22 2011 14:25 Rabiator wrote:

Thors and Ghosts are part of a totally different tech type and require a different building to produce. Both require Tech Labs attached to the Barracks / Factory and the Terran needs A LOT of these buildings to produce a significant amount. Switching from "bio army" to "mech" is NOT something which is feasible.

Protoss on the other hand can work with just a single Robotics (which they need to build in any case for Observers) and chronoboosting can work well to produce a good amount of units.

So I dont think it is the Protoss privilege to be "locked into a tech path". Dont only look at the upgrades, but also think about the production facilities, which is the really expensive part for Terrans.

On September 22 2011 14:25 Rabiator wrote:

Thors and Ghosts are part of a totally different tech type and require a different building to produce. Both require Tech Labs attached to the Barracks / Factory and the Terran needs A LOT of these buildings to produce a significant amount. Switching from "bio army" to "mech" is NOT something which is feasible.

Protoss on the other hand can work with just a single Robotics (which they need to build in any case for Observers) and chronoboosting can work well to produce a good amount of units.

So I dont think it is the Protoss privilege to be "locked into a tech path". Dont only look at the upgrades, but also think about the production facilities, which is the really expensive part for Terrans.

On September 22 2011 23:00 Rob28 wrote:


By that logic, you could say protoss with WG tech are at a disadvantage when they are forced to build 6+ gateways just to keep up in the lategame. You don't see many terran with 6+ rax... so if you want to talk cost of production buildings, it hardly seems like a strong argument in favour of "not as cheap as you'd think" tech switching. (as a side note, I personally believe that a fair way to nerf terran bioballs a bit in the early game is to prevent add-on switching. Make your choice and deal with it, terrans!)

Also, 1 robo bay vs 2 or 3 factories is hardly a fair comparison for mech production. You wouldn't believe how inconvinient it is to attempt to mass collosi/immortal on one building, chronoboosted or not.

On September 22 2011 08:38 TimeSpiral wrote:


Well thought out response. Thanks, QTIP! You don't get a lot of that around here.

It really does come down to the engagement, in which case is can HORRIBLY slide in either sides favor. It might sound simple, but the Terran army is full of activated abilities, and in a split second you could be up against a GW Templar ball and your press T, but your medivacs have priority? WHAT?! Then you press (3) for your Ghosts, and you try and EMP but you fat fingered it because of the adrenaline and you select your MM group ...

Yes, finally I hit stim! Oh ... I'm dead. Damn.

Now I agree, that's a total player-fail right there, but damn, when you get ambushed, or caught with your pants down, sometimes you cannot always Stim + Attack + Chain EMP + Move Medivacs + Start Microing ... It's so easy to miss a hot key, or have a bad selection. Or have the hot key get screwed up. And the Terran bio really does need to do all of those things in a proper order otherwise he's gonnd lose an otherwise fair fight DECIDEDLY.

And yeah, I knew you forgot about the third M, medivacs, but that's actually a pretty big deal. I agree that Medivacs can be rushed out, but in all reality the GW Ball is going to have some sort of tech back up also - Templar, Robo, and less likely, Stargate. Any one of those techs greatly, GREATLY improves the efficacy of the GW Ball.

Nice exchange, QTIP (pun intended).

On September 23 2011 03:54 TimeSpiral wrote:


Being able to mineral dump into Gateways, in late-mid, late-game and being able to produce the entire Templar tech path from a mineral-dump building is certainly not a disadvantage by any measure.

I also love how people who do not play Terran think add-on switching is some sort of advantage. Lol. When compared to Toss and Zerg tech enabling structures, the add-ons are basically built-in Terran nerfs.

But, it's a mechanic to preserve difference, so w/e.

On September 23 2011 04:59 Rob28 wrote:


First of all, no. The templar tech path is incredibly gas heavy, and by no means a mineral dump. I don't know why you'd ever assume it was all just about minerals (have you been playing the same game as the rest of us?), protoss are the epitome of vespene consuming tech trees. Twilight Council + Templar Archives + Storm research = 500 gas (+150 for each HT produced). So no, don't be throwing the term "mineral dump" around so lightly.

Secondly, no. Chronoboost is balanced by Orbital ability, so race unique ability is equal that way... addons are basically free bonusus to production buildings that allow you to choose either tech units (like, say, a gateway) or multi-unit production (like, say, a hatchery), that neither race has an equivilancy for. If you think having the ability to duplicate the production strategies of EITHER opposing races is a nerf, you are wrong. Straight up.

Thirdly, no. I was a high level dimond terran is season 1, and I play random now, yet I still think these things. So no, it's not "people who don't play terran" who think you are wrong, it's people who know how the game works.

On September 23 2011 05:19 TimeSpiral wrote:

Ha. Classic nerd-rage, but in forum form.

(1) The gateway is not a mineral dump in mid-late / late-game? Really?
(2) You cannot warp in Templars from Gateways? Are you sure about that?
(3) Secondly, wat?
(4) I stand corrected. You've played Terran and still think these things. Lowel.

On September 23 2011 05:41 SeaSwift wrote:


Because typing in red makes your dick bigger.

If we're going to have a discussion about balance, can we try not to refer to which race people play? It is very ad hominem and shouldn't have a bearing on whether people are right or not, unless people are just spouting baseless opinions in which case it is a bad discussion anyway as it won't be backed by evidence.

On September 23 2011 22:42 codonbyte wrote:
Hello, I just have a quick question about something in the latest patch. In patch 1.4, Blizzard changed the shields on the warp prism from 40 to 100. The warp prism had 140 total health before. I know that a lot of people complained about the warp prism being extremely fragile. However, the medivac has only 150 health, which is only 10 more than the warp prism's previous health of 140. How come I never heard anyone complain about the medivac's health, while I frequently heard people complain about the warp prism being so fragile? Was that 10 extra hp really that significant? Does it have to do with the fact that medivacs can be repaired, whereas warp prisms can never recover damage to the hull?

On September 23 2011 05:19 TimeSpiral wrote:

Ha. Classic nerd-rage, but in forum form.

(1) The gateway is not a mineral dump in mid-late / late-game? Really?
(2) You cannot warp in Templars from Gateways? Are you sure about that?
(3) Secondly, wat?
(4) I stand corrected. You've played Terran and still think these things. Lowel.

On September 23 2011 23:08 Rob28 wrote:


*Sigh*

1) Never said gateways weren't a mineral dump. I said the templar tech tree wasn't a mineral dump, which is in reponse to you saying it was.
2) Never said templar can't be warped in from gateways. I don't even know where to begin understanding how you think I'd said that.
3) No, wat?
4) Stop being a troll, bro.

Being able to mineral dump into Gateways, in late-mid, late-game and being able to produce the entire Templar tech path from a mineral-dump building is certainly not a disadvantage by any measure.

First of all, no. The templar tech path is incredibly gas heavy, and by no means a mineral dump. I don't know why you'd ever assume it was all just about minerals (have you been playing the same game as the rest of us?), protoss are the epitome of vespene consuming tech trees. Twilight Council + Templar Archives + Storm research = 500 gas (+150 for each HT produced). So no, don't be throwing the term "mineral dump" around so lightly.

On September 23 2011 10:40 TimeSpiral wrote:
If the options are they, sometimes it's hard to deny. Especially when it is so appropriate. This response, to you, of course, is not appropriate but at least half the reason I come to this thread.
gotcha!

On September 23 2011 10:40 TimeSpiral wrote:
Don't be a dick. In my book if you use the term ad hominem (in the same breath where you are ad homineming me, especially, lol) you instantly lose the argument, or any future arguments. For the rest of time. Oh, and Occam's Razor too. That one'll get you kicked straight outta my book.

On September 24 2011 01:27 SeaSwift wrote:


"If the options are they, sometimes it's hard to deny." - Sorry, I didn't understand that. Care to repeat it in a language which makes sense?

"This response, to you, of course, is not appropriate but at least half the reason I come to this thread." - If I read this correctly (which I probably didn't seeing as I have to seive through the crap you come out with to decipher the meaning), you're saying that what you are typing is inappropriate, but so is a lot of other stuff in the thread... and that makes what you're saying OK? Logic fail.



For the record, I wasn't using ad hominem to prove a point. I used irony to emphasise the pointlessness of typing in red. It's only when you use ad hominem to discredit somebody's argument that you are committing a logical fallacy. Speaking of ad hominem, you just called me a "dick" for calling you out on your lack of logic and your typing in colours.

I didn't realise you owned the book on who wins arguments. I beg for your forgiveness, Supreme Commander of the Universe, and shalls strive not to annoy you by avoiding all forms of logic (except those you appreciate), and will not argue any further. In fact, you may take Occam's Razor from Mr. Occam and shave all my hair off with it, as clearly I don't deserve protein strands any more for disagreeing with your authority on the matter of red text.

On September 24 2011 01:35 QTIP. wrote:


This last paragraph made me laugh out loud, I don't even care about the context. Pure gold.

On September 23 2011 23:11 Micket wrote:
Warp prism was never weak, Protoss players said it took up robo time because they clearly needed 10 colossus and 5 obervers and never had the time to make warp prism.