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On September 22 2011 01:51 wheelchairs wrote:
its not that easy to just build a bunch of marines and walk over a protoss in early game, even before colossus/HT, marines are good DPS and cheap, but trade pretty evenly with zealot/stalker with micro in my experiences. Tier 3 is needed later by protoss yes, but so is tier 3 medivacs and bio upgrades combat shields + stim
On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that.
Do you guys actually watch the GSL?
Let me sum up PvT in a nutshell:
Protoss does not know whether terran will expand or go 1 base all-in.
If Terran goes 1 base then protoss needs to prepare an immortal based defense. It becomes a positioning and/or micro contest. There is an equal chance of Terran or Protoss winning the battle, but winning the battle is not enough for Protoss. Protoss need to win the battle and take significantly less losses or the Terran wins with their second push.
If the Terran expands, the Protoss cannot confirm it until they get an observer over there (marines are good at denying probe scouts). If the observer sees a command centre then the protoss will immediately make a nexus. However, since the Terran expanded earlier he has a big economic lead. The protoss has no good way of harassing at this stage to reduce that economic lead.
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On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
d. The protoss has no good way of harassing at this stage to reduce that economic lead.
I don't know about you but White-Ra manages it. Alot.
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On September 22 2011 02:53 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Four concepts that fault this logic: Stimpacks Combat Shields Marauders Reactors Yeah FF helps a bit, but only against terrans who struggle with their micro-ing. The general consensus from toss players (really the only people qualified to speak on the matter) is that gate units are just too weak as is.
Those aren't a problem at all for Protoss to deal with stalkers+immortal+sentries can deal with that easily.
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On September 22 2011 03:01 The Intensity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
d. The protoss has no good way of harassing at this stage to reduce that economic lead. I don't know about you but White-Ra manages it. Alot.
Against who? Show me one replay or video of White-Ra beating a Code S terran player within the last 3 months.
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On September 22 2011 02:58 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 01:51 wheelchairs wrote:
its not that easy to just build a bunch of marines and walk over a protoss in early game, even before colossus/HT, marines are good DPS and cheap, but trade pretty evenly with zealot/stalker with micro in my experiences. Tier 3 is needed later by protoss yes, but so is tier 3 medivacs and bio upgrades combat shields + stim Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Do you guys actually watch the GSL? Let me sum up PvT in a nutshell: Protoss does not know whether terran will expand or go 1 base all-in. If Terran goes 1 base then protoss needs to prepare an immortal based defense. It becomes a positioning and/or micro contest. There is an equal chance of Terran or Protoss winning the battle, but winning the battle is not enough for Protoss. Protoss need to win the battle and take significantly less losses or the Terran wins with their second push. If the Terran expands, the Protoss cannot confirm it until they get an observer over there (marines are good at denying probe scouts). If the observer sees a command centre then the protoss will immediately make a nexus. However, since the Terran expanded earlier he has a big economic lead. The protoss has no good way of harassing at this stage to reduce that economic lead.
This isn't what I answered too, I just pointed out that stalkers+sentries can deal with marines.
But the 1-1-1 push is hard to deal with because tanks, as stalkers+sentries can't deal with that.
Maybe now with immortal buff it can be.
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On September 22 2011 03:02 Trumpstyle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:53 Rob28 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Four concepts that fault this logic: Stimpacks Combat Shields Marauders Reactors Yeah FF helps a bit, but only against terrans who struggle with their micro-ing. The general consensus from toss players (really the only people qualified to speak on the matter) is that gate units are just too weak as is. Those aren't a problem at all for Protoss to deal with stalkers+immortal+sentries can deal with that easily.
Stalker-Immortal-Sentries do terrible vs MMM. Add a couple ghosts and you have a massacre.
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On September 22 2011 03:06 Trumpstyle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:58 hzflank wrote:On September 22 2011 01:51 wheelchairs wrote:
its not that easy to just build a bunch of marines and walk over a protoss in early game, even before colossus/HT, marines are good DPS and cheap, but trade pretty evenly with zealot/stalker with micro in my experiences. Tier 3 is needed later by protoss yes, but so is tier 3 medivacs and bio upgrades combat shields + stim On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Do you guys actually watch the GSL? Let me sum up PvT in a nutshell: Protoss does not know whether terran will expand or go 1 base all-in. If Terran goes 1 base then protoss needs to prepare an immortal based defense. It becomes a positioning and/or micro contest. There is an equal chance of Terran or Protoss winning the battle, but winning the battle is not enough for Protoss. Protoss need to win the battle and take significantly less losses or the Terran wins with their second push. If the Terran expands, the Protoss cannot confirm it until they get an observer over there (marines are good at denying probe scouts). If the observer sees a command centre then the protoss will immediately make a nexus. However, since the Terran expanded earlier he has a big economic lead. The protoss has no good way of harassing at this stage to reduce that economic lead. This isn't what I answered too, I just pointed out that stalkers+sentries can deal with marines. But the 1-1-1 push is hard to deal with because tanks, as stalkers+sentries can't deal with that. Maybe now with immortal buff it can be.
I agree that stalkers can deal with small numbers of marines by kiting them and gradually killing them. I would also agree that a sentry + anything combo is very good against a small number of marines. But I think this only holds true in the very early game. Pound for pound, marines do so much more damage than stalkers or sentries that when you get a big enough group of them and get stimpack, the marines will always come out ahead of gateway units.
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On September 22 2011 02:58 Trumpstyle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done? You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries. Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it?
How in the...
Because terran hasn't built an equivalent cost of units when 6gate hits?
You have three sentries. Barring ridiculously favourable terrain AND idiotically bad unit control by terran, you won't stop 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries. It's not happening.
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On September 21 2011 16:06 Brotocol wrote:Anyone watching GSL right now? The commentators talked about Protoss not innovating enough, and said it would probably be better in a month. Then... Game 2 of Sage vs Yoda: + Show Spoiler +
Yoda does 1-1-1 and changes it a little bit. The commentators mention how innovative Yoda is, and how Sage took a big risk which didn't pay off.
I found this pretty stupid. There seems to be a concentrated denial going on.
I'm sure there are a number of guidelines given to commentators on what they can talk about, and "no blatantly explicit balance discussion" seems to be a reasonable one.
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On September 22 2011 03:08 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 03:02 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:53 Rob28 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Four concepts that fault this logic: Stimpacks Combat Shields Marauders Reactors Yeah FF helps a bit, but only against terrans who struggle with their micro-ing. The general consensus from toss players (really the only people qualified to speak on the matter) is that gate units are just too weak as is. Those aren't a problem at all for Protoss to deal with stalkers+immortal+sentries can deal with that easily. Stalker-Immortal-Sentries do terrible vs MMM. Add a couple ghosts and you have a massacre.
He actually only mentioned marines+marauders. But yes if you add ghosts in there it will be a massacre.
But does that mean marines+marauders are a problem for Protoss?
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On September 22 2011 03:11 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:58 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done? You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries. Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it? How in the... Because terran hasn't built an equivalent cost of units when 6gate hits? You have three sentries. Barring ridiculously favourable terrain AND idiotically bad unit control by terran, you won't stop 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries. It's not happening.
Gas is worth more than minerals. 6 stalkers and 3 sentries costs at least as much as 40 marines (+ extra supply depots).
Which brings me to another point that does not get enough discussion. Protoss units have horrible cost-efficiency but extremely good supply efficiency. 6 stalkers and 3 sentries is only 18 supply, where as 40 marines is obviously 40 supply. I think this is where the idea of the protoss deathball comes in. If two armies have equal supply, the protoss army will usually have cost between 50% and 100% more. If the protoss army loses then how can protoss really expect to win games? If the protoss army wins, then have can terran or zerg expect to be protoss in the late game? The whole thing just does not work out, protoss units need to be cheaper but cost more supply.
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On September 22 2011 02:58 Trumpstyle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done? You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries. Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it?
Sentries don't have limitless energy. As the terran builds more marines, the protoss has to warp in more gas-heavy sentries essentially just to buy forcefields to keep the marines at bay -- that slows down the protoss's ability to tech. Meanwhile since the marines cost no gas the terran is free to tech behind his million-marine push.
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On September 22 2011 02:58 Trumpstyle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done? You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries. Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it?
6gate relies on having zealots to tank. Sentry stalker by itself is pretty laughable once stim comes out.
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On September 22 2011 03:11 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:58 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done? You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries. Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it? How in the... Because terran hasn't built an equivalent cost of units when 6gate hits? You have three sentries. Barring ridiculously favourable terrain AND idiotically bad unit control by terran, you won't stop 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries. It's not happening.
If what you say is true why don't we see Terrans just simply mass marines from start of the game and kill Protoss before Colossus or templers are out?
That is because stalkers+sentries deal with marines easily.
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On September 22 2011 02:58 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 01:51 wheelchairs wrote:
its not that easy to just build a bunch of marines and walk over a protoss in early game, even before colossus/HT, marines are good DPS and cheap, but trade pretty evenly with zealot/stalker with micro in my experiences. Tier 3 is needed later by protoss yes, but so is tier 3 medivacs and bio upgrades combat shields + stim Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Do you guys actually watch the GSL? Let me sum up PvT in a nutshell: Protoss does not know whether terran will expand or go 1 base all-in. If Terran goes 1 base then protoss needs to prepare an immortal based defense. It becomes a positioning and/or micro contest. There is an equal chance of Terran or Protoss winning the battle, but winning the battle is not enough for Protoss. Protoss need to win the battle and take significantly less losses or the Terran wins with their second push. If the Terran expands, the Protoss cannot confirm it until they get an observer over there (marines are good at denying probe scouts). If the observer sees a command centre then the protoss will immediately make a nexus. However, since the Terran expanded earlier he has a big economic lead. The protoss has no good way of harassing at this stage to reduce that economic lead.
Thats what happened in the match between Puzzle and Bomber yesterday. Its funny how Artosis was "See every Protoss has to build a robo and get observers!!". Of course we do, but at the same time it can delay an expansion significantly. Especially because you gotta wait until your observer get to the enemy base.
So when Puzzle knew Bomber had expanded, he was already behind. And against a player like Bomber, you cant be behind, never, or he will roll you. And thats what happened.
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Fellow protosses, except for 1-1-1, early game tvp is pretty well balanced. And toss is learning how to see and stop the 1-1-1.
It's late game that's bad. Ghosts are very cheap and the most powerful caster. The only option toss has right now is going for a billion colossus late game. Which means maybe it's not imbalanced just bad design wise.
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On August 16 2011 06:57 Techno wrote:
A Personal Plea From Techno To Protoss Players:
Protoss Underpowered is the flavour of the past month or so. This is fueled by GSL caliber Protosses not occupying 1st place on the podium. Make no mistake, if MC won GSL Code S, no matter his playstyle, this theme would not be half as popular as it is with MC in code B. I say: "Fuck MC! Make your own Protoss!". We've seen Zerg evolve immensely in the time since release, the same is possible for Protoss. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to play, but I am gonna tell you how to think; "Like a champion". What makes Starcraft awesome? Metagame changes. This "lull" in Protoss victories (at the highest of highest level), is merely an oppurtunity for the lesser known, younger, ballsier Protosses to come out of the shadows and wow everyone with new playstyles. Embrace your failures, my friends.
Lol - I'm not sure what how "Protoss Underpowered" is a flavor. Want numbers to back it up? Want high-profile Protoss players get owned by 1-1-1? Want high-profile Protoss players to go from Code S->A->B?
It's not a flavor. It's the current state of the game. Innovation is needed and it is happening, but judging from Patch 1.4, it looks like Blizzard is in same boat as most Protoss players. Balance changes are needed, and they are being implemented.
I do agree that MC losing is like Protoss losing its Talismanic figure, causing way too much outrage. The reaction has been a mix of Protoss UP screams and a general sentiment of losing a fun-loving character like MC.
In regards to what make Starcraft awesome... it's not metagame changes. It's the fact that you can play three very distinctly different races and the game can be perfectly balanced at a competitive level. The metagame changes are a bonus assuming that the races are balanced perfectly. Metagame changes aren't so fun if your race is weaker than the other two races.
More importantly, isn't it strange that the OP of the "General Balance Discussion" is calling out Protoss players for whining too much? Balance is cyclical at the early stages of the game. Perhaps you should simply put in a pre-emptive warning for all race users when they find out their race is in the shitter in the coming months. I think it's a more diplomatic approach to take.
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On September 22 2011 03:17 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 03:11 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:58 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done? You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries. Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it? How in the... Because terran hasn't built an equivalent cost of units when 6gate hits? You have three sentries. Barring ridiculously favourable terrain AND idiotically bad unit control by terran, you won't stop 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries. It's not happening. Gas is worth more than minerals. 6 stalkers and 3 sentries costs at least as much as 40 marines (+ extra supply depots). Which brings me to another point that does not get enough discussion. Protoss units have horrible cost-efficiency but extremely good supply efficiency. 6 stalkers and 3 sentries is only 18 supply, where as 40 marines is obviously 40 supply. I think this is where the idea of the protoss deathball comes in. If two armies have equal supply, the protoss army will usually have cost between 50% and 100% more. If the protoss army loses then how can protoss really expect to win games? If the protoss army wins, then have can terran or zerg expect to be protoss in the late game? The whole thing just does not work out, protoss units need to be cheaper but cost more supply.
Yeah the whole "protoss deathball" is OP is a ridiculous notion. It's strong supply-wise, but it's army value that should be compared. Why do zergs believe a ridiculously supply inefficient, but extremely cost efficient roach-based army should beat a protoss army that costs twice as much? Look at zerg's deathball of supply efficient units like broodling/infestor and tell me that army isn't just as unstoppable as a protoss deathball.
The oddball in this whole concept is terran bio. They are both supply and cost efficient all-game due to numerous upgrades and a great supporting unit in the medivac. And since all their units are ranged they can mass them and only get more efficient, whereas you cannot mass meele or shorter range units.
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On September 22 2011 03:29 Trumpstyle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 03:11 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:58 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done? You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries. Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it? How in the... Because terran hasn't built an equivalent cost of units when 6gate hits? You have three sentries. Barring ridiculously favourable terrain AND idiotically bad unit control by terran, you won't stop 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries. It's not happening. If what you say is true why don't we see Terrans just simply mass marines from start of the game and kill Protoss before Colossus or templers are out? That is because stalkers+sentries deal with marines easily.
Kinda true. Marine scale good once their number get high but in low number from 10-25ish around there, marine can be dealt with by gateway units + forcefield (not saying that it easy but more like they can go on par). Once we get to like 50+ marine, that when gateway unit wont even be competition if gateway unit and marine are on par with upgrade and supply cost. Of course this is if the protoss play defensives and does not chase marine around in circle. (If you still dont believe me, a good example is Marine vs Zerglings. In low number, zerglings do pretty decent against marine but once the number get high....zerglings just melt like butter.)
But mass marine will melt gateway units. Stalker and sentry loses because stalker will overkill while marine are small and group up so more marine can fire thus their DPS is substantially higher. This mean stalker and sentry will melt in large number fight.
Terran dont mass marine vs toss because if you do and 1 collosi comes out, then you will auto lose because you once have the unit composition to handle 1 collosi with FF support. It is gimicky and consider ALL-IN because you are basically trying to kill them before they get AOE with mass marine. That is why alot of pro dont do it because it gimicky.
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On September 22 2011 03:29 Trumpstyle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 03:11 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:58 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done? You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries. Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it? How in the... Because terran hasn't built an equivalent cost of units when 6gate hits? You have three sentries. Barring ridiculously favourable terrain AND idiotically bad unit control by terran, you won't stop 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries. It's not happening. If what you say is true why don't we see Terrans just simply mass marines from start of the game and kill Protoss before Colossus or templers are out? That is because stalkers+sentries deal with marines easily.
You do, its called the 1-1-1. Tanks and banshees are just support for the marines to do DPS and to stop things like being sentry contained in base, while allowing to contain in case the protoss is one basing. If the protoss is one basing and going colossi, that would slaughter mass marine, so you have siege tanks with longer range and banshees to deal with them, because if you go one base colossi you have no gas for stalkers. I don't know if you actually even play the game looking at some of your posts.
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