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Also, corruptors can use the corruption ability on ground targets after the colossus have died, lengthening their use, and they can afterwards morph into BL, though it is wise to still keep a couple to counter VR, but corrupters + infestors are a deadly combo against VR.
There's a huge timing window where you can't really expect to make broodlords against protoss. Zerg has to 'throwaway' their army multiple times during the game, lengthening the tech process, and it takes 4 minutes from lair to BL (and that's assuming you have 150 gas per BL ready as soon as GS pops, and 100 gas for however many corruptors as soon as spire popped, and you somehow maxed out with roach/hydra to stay alive).
You can't really afford Corruptor+Infestor either on anything less than 4 bases. That's like telling Protoss HT+Colossi go go go.
Maybe I am exaggerating the uselessness of the Corruptor, but if your argument is all about Broodlords, then you are mistaken.
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On September 21 2011 13:16 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Instead of looking THAT far into the match up, I think just by changing the marauder would completely change the pvt. You can see the matchup without ghost, without tanks, without banshees, even with almost no marine; but I don't think I've ever seen pvt without marauders.
marines are the problem, not marauders. What I'd really like to see in the future is a hard nerf to marine / marauder with the introduction of a new tier 2 mech unit to compensate
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How can marine be the probleme in PvT ? They melt against Colossus and Storm.
(Z talking here)
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On September 21 2011 22:30 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:
How can marine be the probleme in PvT ? They melt against Colossus and Storm.
(Z talking here)
Basically what the guy above me said. Marines are cheap and low-tier. Storm and Colossi requires a lot of tech structures and it is very risky spend all this amount of resources on tech when being pressured.
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On September 21 2011 22:33 Sated wrote:
Not sure how you could nerf marines early game without screwing everything up, though, so... :S
Range upgrade breh...
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4713 Posts
You can't nerf marine range without it having far reaching consequences in every match up, especially in TvZ where marines are used fight many things.
Seeing as how TvZ is ok at the moment, not spectacular but not as bad as PvT, I'd just straight up say buff the T1 and T1.5 of protoss so it can keep up or counter the terran T1.5.
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its not that easy to just build a bunch of marines and walk over a protoss in early game, even before colossus/HT, marines are good DPS and cheap, but trade pretty evenly with zealot/stalker with micro in my experiences. Tier 3 is needed later by protoss yes, but so is tier 3 medivacs and bio upgrades combat shields + stim
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On September 22 2011 00:34 Destructicon wrote:
You can't nerf marine range without it having far reaching consequences in every match up, especially in TvZ where marines are used fight many things.
Seeing as how TvZ is ok at the moment, not spectacular but not as bad as PvT, I'd just straight up say buff the T1 and T1.5 of protoss so it can keep up or counter the terran T1.5.
You can't do that without turning PvZ into nothing but Warpgate timings. They are already scary as hell as is
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On September 22 2011 01:51 wheelchairs wrote: tier 3 medivacs and bio upgrades combat shields + stim
First of all: screw talking about "tiers". They are an ill-defined concept in a game as fluid as SC2.
Now then. Medivacs and bio upgrades are nowhere NEAR as high-tech as HTs or Colossi, and MM are perfectly viable before these upgrades come out. On the other hand, HT/Colossi are NEEDED to fight cost-efficiently with the MMM ball. Well, until Ghosts/Vikings come out.
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On September 22 2011 02:08 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 01:51 wheelchairs wrote: tier 3 medivacs and bio upgrades combat shields + stim First of all: screw talking about "tiers". They are an ill-defined concept in a game as fluid as SC2. Now then. Medivacs and bio upgrades are nowhere NEAR as high-tech as HTs or Colossi, and MM are perfectly viable before these upgrades come out. On the other hand, HT/Colossi are NEEDED to fight cost-efficiently with the MMM ball. Well, until Ghosts/Vikings come out.
you can talk tiers in SC2 as long as it's zerg. Ever seen BL / ultras with 1 base? Zerg tiers are clearly defined the others not so much, especially Terran.
terrans can spam their "tier 3" units from 1 base -_-
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There are too many people who only think in limited ways about a potential problem. The Marine seems to be one of them, because people are arguing about "nerfing Marines" while totally forgetting that one statistic of the Marine is the NUMBER of them. It really makes a difference if there are 10 or 15 of them at a point in time. The same can be said about the whole Warp Gate + Chronoboost speed-up for Protoss (4-gate anyone?).
So the problem is NOT the damage of the Marine, its not the range of the Marine, its not the hit points or even the upgrades of the Marine, but rather the massive amount of Marines which can be produced and which Protoss can respond to only badly in time. The same problem is created by the Protoss X-gate assaults which can be deadly if they arent scouted and prepared for (bunkers, Spines, ...).
So to make a long story short: NERF the too fast production of ALL units. Speed bursts for unit production (Larva Inject, Chronoboost + Warp Gate being faster than Gateway production, MULE + Reactor) is the real problem, because it allows for a - more or less - sudden swell of units to suprise and swarm your opponent. Dont be blinded by one races seeming dominance; ALL races have their own speed bursts for production.
I summed it up earlier in the thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=37#734
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heres my point of the current ZVP position:
ZVP mostly is a kinda static matchup for toss. there are mostly 2 ways to play it. some play very aggressive gateway pushes like MC did for a long time with success and the other way is to turtle up and get a huge deathball, in newer games included with warpprisms to buy time to get the deathball.
ok so heres the problem that toss currently has. The heavy gatewaypushes like MC did for a long time became abit gimmicky and zergs figured out how to hold it AND how to follow up after a failed push. all those 2base timings arnt as effective anymore as they used to be.
the problem with turtle toss is: its all about the 3rd base. zerg has to delay/deny the 3rd base of toss as good as he can to not get roflstomped by toss lategame. ZVP became so "hard" for tosses because zerg figured out alot of timings that make it hard for toss to take a 3rd without losses, especially on korean servers, despite the fact that alot of tosses do weird 2base builds. if u watched MC vs Losira in the up and down matches on xelnaga fort. u see what i mean. MC did some weird voidray into colossus into archon speedzealot build that he just didnt have enough units to do an effective 2base allin.
so whats the problem that zergs whine about? the 3rd base thing is highly inflicted by the mapdesign. on some maps its really hard to get a 3rd as toss on some its very easy. for example on taldarim altar most zergs are forced to do a semi 2base allin and hope to do enought damage of to finish toss off (2base hydra/nydus for example) because its relativly easy for toss to get a 3rd and its hard for zerg to get his early 3. thats not particulary a playstyle we wish, not toss nor zerg, but thats the current state of ZVP at the moment. so i think its not the question whos the better race at the moment, its more about what gamedesign we want.
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On September 22 2011 02:06 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 00:34 Destructicon wrote:
You can't nerf marine range without it having far reaching consequences in every match up, especially in TvZ where marines are used fight many things.
Seeing as how TvZ is ok at the moment, not spectacular but not as bad as PvT, I'd just straight up say buff the T1 and T1.5 of protoss so it can keep up or counter the terran T1.5. You can't do that without turning PvZ into nothing but Warpgate timings. They are already scary as hell as is
Yes, buffing Warpgate units while nerfing Infestors is not a smart idea. Early Gateway pressure will be much harder to deal with for Z. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I strongly believe that the Warp-gate is the main culprit: the ability to warp in anywhere, but your most units struggle to be cost efficient without Forcefields or Splash damage.
I still want Protoss splash that will be available at Tier 1 / Tier 2 (for help with marine balls), but that would probably be way too good against Zerglings when Zealots are already around.
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Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that.
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On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that.
Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done?
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On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that.
Stalkers' 6 range doesn't allow you to perfectly kite marines that are being a-moved forward, because of Stalkers' attack animation, FYI. Watch when the pros attempt it. If the marines are a-moving forward, the Stalkers will get hit.
It's also not a stretch to consider that marauders will be there.
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On September 22 2011 02:32 ChriseC wrote:
heres my point of the current ZVP position:
ZVP mostly is a kinda static matchup for toss. there are mostly 2 ways to play it. some play very aggressive gateway pushes like MC did for a long time with success and the other way is to turtle up and get a huge deathball, in newer games included with warpprisms to buy time to get the deathball.
ok so heres the problem that toss currently has. The heavy gatewaypushes like MC did for a long time became abit gimmicky and zergs figured out how to hold it AND how to follow up after a failed push. all those 2base timings arnt as effective anymore as they used to be.
the problem with turtle toss is: its all about the 3rd base. zerg has to delay/deny the 3rd base of toss as good as he can to not get roflstomped by toss lategame. ZVP became so "hard" for tosses because zerg figured out alot of timings that make it hard for toss to take a 3rd without losses, especially on korean servers, despite the fact that alot of tosses do weird 2base builds. if u watched MC vs Losira in the up and down matches on xelnaga fort. u see what i mean. MC did some weird voidray into colossus into archon speedzealot build that he just didnt have enough units to do an effective 2base allin.
so whats the problem that zergs whine about? the 3rd base thing is highly inflicted by the mapdesign. on some maps its really hard to get a 3rd as toss on some its very easy. for example on taldarim altar most zergs are forced to do a semi 2base allin and hope to do enought damage of to finish toss off (2base hydra/nydus for example) because its relativly easy for toss to get a 3rd and its hard for zerg to get his early 3. thats not particulary a playstyle we wish, not toss nor zerg, but thats the current state of ZVP at the moment. so i think its not the question whos the better race at the moment, its more about what gamedesign we want.
This is a good post! I think the same thing. When Protoss can't take an easy third or deal enough damage with whatever pressure they choose (Gateway / VR / DT ) they usually resort to some sort of a 2-base all-in. On certain maps, especially the ones MC played on vs Zergs, third bases were extremely hard to take. They were close to the center of the map, with wide open areas which favor Zerg. It is incredibly hard to defend, and you will always have to have either a dozen cannons or keep your army within short walking distance to save it. Of course, if you invest in this third and Zerg is able to force a cancel / kill it entirely, your whole gameplan is fucked.
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On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that.
Four concepts that fault this logic:
Stimpacks
Combat Shields
Marauders
Reactors
Yeah FF helps a bit, but only against terrans who struggle with their micro-ing. The general consensus from toss players (really the only people qualified to speak on the matter) is that gate units are just too weak as is.
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On September 22 2011 02:46 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Please tell me you're joking. What do you do against 30 marines with 6 stalkers and 3 sentries? What combination of gateway units will let you fight that ball cost effectively once stim is done?
You use guardian shield and forcefields. I never experience any problem dealing with marines with stalkers+sentries.
Why you think 6 gates pushes against terran is powerful if simple marines counter it?
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