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On September 22 2011 03:15 Trumpstyle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 03:08 QTIP. wrote:On September 22 2011 03:02 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:53 Rob28 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Four concepts that fault this logic: Stimpacks Combat Shields Marauders Reactors Yeah FF helps a bit, but only against terrans who struggle with their micro-ing. The general consensus from toss players (really the only people qualified to speak on the matter) is that gate units are just too weak as is. Those aren't a problem at all for Protoss to deal with stalkers+immortal+sentries can deal with that easily. Stalker-Immortal-Sentries do terrible vs MMM. Add a couple ghosts and you have a massacre. He actually only mentioned marines+marauders. But yes if you add ghosts in there it will be a massacre. But does that mean marines+marauders are a problem for Protoss?
Of course MM is a problem for protoss. It has always been a problem for protoss. That's pretty much what the last 20 or so pages of this thread have been saying. Gateway units are weakened to compensate for warp-ins, and frankly, it's just not working out. Marines, on the other hand, are the most cost-efficient DPS dealers in the game.
As for your whole "marines having trouble with stalker/sentry" notion, I suspect you just need to practice more, because you seem to be the only one on here with that opinion (which personally I believe you're just pulling out of thin air).
Look man, you tried to get an idea out there, and it's not flying, so IMO you may want to just forget about it and change topic. Mass Marines > Sentry/Stalker.
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On September 22 2011 04:21 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 03:15 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 03:08 QTIP. wrote:On September 22 2011 03:02 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:53 Rob28 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Four concepts that fault this logic: Stimpacks Combat Shields Marauders Reactors Yeah FF helps a bit, but only against terrans who struggle with their micro-ing. The general consensus from toss players (really the only people qualified to speak on the matter) is that gate units are just too weak as is. Those aren't a problem at all for Protoss to deal with stalkers+immortal+sentries can deal with that easily. Stalker-Immortal-Sentries do terrible vs MMM. Add a couple ghosts and you have a massacre. He actually only mentioned marines+marauders. But yes if you add ghosts in there it will be a massacre. But does that mean marines+marauders are a problem for Protoss? Of course MM is a problem for protoss. It has always been a problem for protoss. That's pretty much what the last 20 or so pages of this thread have been saying. Gateway units are weakened to compensate for warp-ins, and frankly, it's just not working out. Marines, on the other hand, are the most cost-efficient DPS dealers in the game. As for your whole "marines having trouble with stalker/sentry" notion, I suspect you just need to practice more, because you seem to be the only one on here with that opinion (which personally I believe you're just pulling out of thin air). Look man, you tried to get an idea out there, and it's not flying, so IMO you may want to just forget about it and change topic. Mass Marines > Sentry/Stalker.
MM with Stim > Gateway units (with charge and blink) unless Protoss is able to get a super lopsided engagement in which they kill most of the MM ball for free.
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How retarded is this ramp change. You can't even poke up ramps anymore to see what the terran is doing. Thanks Blizzard, I really needed to be able to scout Terran less.
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I also think we were wrong about the whole marine-tank-banshee being a problem. Has anyone really seen this in professional games in the last two weeks or so? It seems to have evolved to just marines and tanks.
As for the 1.4 balance changes: they do not, and were not designed to fix any of these issues. The immortal change (in conjunction with the line of site change) was a PvP change. They are gradually trying to make PvP progress from 1-base play. The warp prism change was not a harassment change. It was designed to help protoss who are using warp prisms to protect their templar from ghosts. Specifically, when a protoss switched from colossi to ghosts then the terran will have vikings out. Vikings have the same range as templar so they were able to hit prisms carrying the templar in to storm. Patch 1.4 does not address the problems.
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Even if the 111 isnt used, it existance alone makes protoss weak. Thorzain vs hero, first game, hero prepares for the 111 and dies to proxy rax, he had to flip a coin and lossed, very fair
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On September 22 2011 04:28 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:21 Rob28 wrote:On September 22 2011 03:15 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 03:08 QTIP. wrote:On September 22 2011 03:02 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:53 Rob28 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Four concepts that fault this logic: Stimpacks Combat Shields Marauders Reactors Yeah FF helps a bit, but only against terrans who struggle with their micro-ing. The general consensus from toss players (really the only people qualified to speak on the matter) is that gate units are just too weak as is. Those aren't a problem at all for Protoss to deal with stalkers+immortal+sentries can deal with that easily. Stalker-Immortal-Sentries do terrible vs MMM. Add a couple ghosts and you have a massacre. He actually only mentioned marines+marauders. But yes if you add ghosts in there it will be a massacre. But does that mean marines+marauders are a problem for Protoss? Of course MM is a problem for protoss. It has always been a problem for protoss. That's pretty much what the last 20 or so pages of this thread have been saying. Gateway units are weakened to compensate for warp-ins, and frankly, it's just not working out. Marines, on the other hand, are the most cost-efficient DPS dealers in the game. As for your whole "marines having trouble with stalker/sentry" notion, I suspect you just need to practice more, because you seem to be the only one on here with that opinion (which personally I believe you're just pulling out of thin air). Look man, you tried to get an idea out there, and it's not flying, so IMO you may want to just forget about it and change topic. Mass Marines > Sentry/Stalker. MM with Stim > Gateway units (with charge and blink) unless Protoss is able to get a super lopsided engagement in which they kill most of the MM ball for free.
QTIP!
Don't you mean (MM w/ Stim + Micro back across the entire map)? Chargelot, Sentry, Stalker, with upgrades, can absolutely slaughter MM w/ stim, unless the Terran adds Medivacs and micros back all the way back to his base.
I'm not saying that Bio cannot slaughter a GW ball, it certainly can, but this argument always leaves out such important factors. (1) Protoss is almost always ahead in attack and armor upgrades. (2) MM + Stim requires micro, which is not overly hard to do, but by it's very nature pushes the army WAY back and since the medivac speed nerf, it means you're losing lots of medivacs. (3) If the Toss lands a few good FF's, or if the Bio does not micro perfectly, they get slaughtered by the GW Ball.
Barracks versus GW is just a stupid argument, because it's not "Barracks versus Gateway" it's actually Barracks+Starport+Ghost Academy versus two Protoss Builds Gateway+Templar or Gateway+Robo.
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On September 22 2011 04:41 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:28 QTIP. wrote:On September 22 2011 04:21 Rob28 wrote:On September 22 2011 03:15 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 03:08 QTIP. wrote:On September 22 2011 03:02 Trumpstyle wrote:On September 22 2011 02:53 Rob28 wrote:On September 22 2011 02:42 Trumpstyle wrote:
Stalkers+Sentries can deal with marines no matter how many marines there is. Guardian shield and Forcefield. Can't see why protoss saying they need colossus/templars for that. Four concepts that fault this logic: Stimpacks Combat Shields Marauders Reactors Yeah FF helps a bit, but only against terrans who struggle with their micro-ing. The general consensus from toss players (really the only people qualified to speak on the matter) is that gate units are just too weak as is. Those aren't a problem at all for Protoss to deal with stalkers+immortal+sentries can deal with that easily. Stalker-Immortal-Sentries do terrible vs MMM. Add a couple ghosts and you have a massacre. He actually only mentioned marines+marauders. But yes if you add ghosts in there it will be a massacre. But does that mean marines+marauders are a problem for Protoss? Of course MM is a problem for protoss. It has always been a problem for protoss. That's pretty much what the last 20 or so pages of this thread have been saying. Gateway units are weakened to compensate for warp-ins, and frankly, it's just not working out. Marines, on the other hand, are the most cost-efficient DPS dealers in the game. As for your whole "marines having trouble with stalker/sentry" notion, I suspect you just need to practice more, because you seem to be the only one on here with that opinion (which personally I believe you're just pulling out of thin air). Look man, you tried to get an idea out there, and it's not flying, so IMO you may want to just forget about it and change topic. Mass Marines > Sentry/Stalker. MM with Stim > Gateway units (with charge and blink) unless Protoss is able to get a super lopsided engagement in which they kill most of the MM ball for free. QTIP! Don't you mean (MM w/ Stim + Micro back across the entire map)? Chargelot, Sentry, Stalker, with upgrades, can absolutely slaughter MM w/ stim, unless the Terran adds Medivacs and micros back all the way back to his base. I'm not saying that Bio cannot slaughter a GW ball, it certainly can, but this argument always leaves out such important factors. (1) Protoss is almost always ahead in attack and armor upgrades. (2) MM + Stim requires micro, which is not overly hard to do, but by it's very nature pushes the army WAY back and since the medivac speed nerf, it means you're losing lots of medivacs. (3) If the Toss lands a few good FF's, or if the Bio does not micro perfectly, they get slaughtered by the GW Ball. Barracks versus GW is just a stupid argument, because it's not "Barracks versus Gateway" it's actually Barracks+Starport+Ghost Academy versus two Protoss Builds Gateway+Templar or Gateway+Robo.
Hey man -
I realized my post was incorrect. If I include Charge / Blink, then MM needs Medivacs as well.
To address your points.
1) This is not necessarily true. Many Protoss' are so scared of MMMG timings that they skip upgrades until they are transitioning into taking a third base. The emphasis is to get out as many units as possible. I do not feel that Protoss is almost always ahead in attack and armor. Yes we have chronoboost but that does not mean that adding upgrading 2 Forges off two base is safe. The counter to MMG timings is to get a shit-ton of units. Since you're gonna get EMP'd anyway, you need the extra units to make up the difference.
2) MM+ Stim requires Micro. Yes. So does a GW Ball. You need to forcefield, target fire marauders with stalkers, pull back Zealots once they are up against the forcefield. Save as many sentries as possible (100 gas you are saving). There's no point in getting in to an argument of which is "harder" to do, everyone has their own opinions.
3) Is a somewhat pointless statement. If Protoss does not place perfect forcefields or misses just 1 forcefield, engages with Zealots in an improper position, forgets Guardian shield, gets caught in a bad concave, then they will get slaughtered by the MM ball. This takes place very often in my games, a Terran will constantly try to bait me into wasting / bad forcefields. We both know that it all comes down to the engagement -- if I fuck up I die. If he fucks up he dies. It goes both ways.
Anyway, what I really meant to say was... GW Units with Charge/Blink are NOT cost effective vs an equal Supply MMM ball, unless you can get extremely favorable engagements.
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On September 20 2011 07:51 Destructicon wrote:
Also, you can't counter EMP with positioning alone, at some point you are forced to fight, and when that happens your units cluster and EMP deals lethal damage. Even if you don't want to fight, the terran will force it upon you either by harassing you to death with drops, but also by harassing your army to death with snipes, EMPs, vikings and pokes.
Just read this and laughed. All races experience clustering, try TvZ against Infestors or TvP against HT and storm. If EMP was something Terran's would have to research the unit would have no utility and not be worth the high price.
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Because we all know you can dodge / run out of emp and protoss units will be healed up in a few seconds ...
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4713 Posts
You obviously missed the part of my post where I explained that EMP has a bigger range then HT feedback, and also destroys shields/energy in aoe.
So yes, I can very comfortably go into a Terran army vs Zerg/Protoss army with Infestors/HTs and I have a 90% chance of coming out ahead because my ghosts are superior. Once the infestors and HT are neutralized I can just snipe, harass, hit and run, poke the protoss army until he is forced to make a mistake.
Oh and he can't forcefield because EMP also neutralizez sentries.
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Why isn't anyone concerned with the lack of a need for gas for the Terran race??? I believe it is the best, numerical evidence of imbalance.
I have watched countless GSL matches, TvZ and TvP and in both match-up, by the end-game of games that Terran has won, they were floating THOUSANDS of gas.
Not needing gas, coupled with mules getting more minerals, means bigger armies, and also lots of upgrades. That way they can stay ahead in upgrades and army size of the other two races who struggle and need to constantly choose between getting more gas-heavy units or investing in upgrades.
Opinions?
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On September 22 2011 05:25 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:51 Destructicon wrote:
Also, you can't counter EMP with positioning alone, at some point you are forced to fight, and when that happens your units cluster and EMP deals lethal damage. Even if you don't want to fight, the terran will force it upon you either by harassing you to death with drops, but also by harassing your army to death with snipes, EMPs, vikings and pokes.
Just read this and laughed. All races experience clustering, try TvZ against Infestors or TvP against HT and storm. If EMP was something Terran's would have to research the unit would have no utility and not be worth the high price.
Just read this and laughed. You're right! Snipe isn't good at all vs Zerg. Complaining about high price, when they reduced the gas cost on the unit by 50. Man - if you think that researching EMP was annoying, imagine if they deleted the Energy Upgrade for the Ghost with it too!
Ghost vs HT relationship (at the highest level of play) is insanely Ghost favored. Watch Select vs Alicia.
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On September 22 2011 05:25 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:51 Destructicon wrote:
Also, you can't counter EMP with positioning alone, at some point you are forced to fight, and when that happens your units cluster and EMP deals lethal damage. Even if you don't want to fight, the terran will force it upon you either by harassing you to death with drops, but also by harassing your army to death with snipes, EMPs, vikings and pokes.
Just read this and laughed. All races experience clustering, try TvZ against Infestors or TvP against HT and storm. If EMP was something Terran's would have to research the unit would have no utility and not be worth the high price.
lol right, everyone builds HTs for 150 gas because feedback is so awsome
there doesn't exist a simple, logical explanation why protoss has to sink yet another 200/200 into upgrading (which also delays timings), while terrans gets their cool spell for free - this is something I've complained about...well...between release and november/december 2010; nowadays I've learned to accept it - doesn't mean that suddenly a reason for that appeared out of nowhere though
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On September 22 2011 05:35 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 05:25 zmansman17 wrote:On September 20 2011 07:51 Destructicon wrote:
Also, you can't counter EMP with positioning alone, at some point you are forced to fight, and when that happens your units cluster and EMP deals lethal damage. Even if you don't want to fight, the terran will force it upon you either by harassing you to death with drops, but also by harassing your army to death with snipes, EMPs, vikings and pokes.
Just read this and laughed. All races experience clustering, try TvZ against Infestors or TvP against HT and storm. If EMP was something Terran's would have to research the unit would have no utility and not be worth the high price. Just read this and laughed. You're right! Snipe isn't good at all vs Zerg. Complaining about high price, when they reduced the gas cost on the unit by 50. Man - if you think that researching EMP was annoying, imagine if they deleted the Energy Upgrade for the Ghost with it too! Ghost vs HT relationship (at the highest level of play) is insanely Ghost favored. Watch Select vs Alicia.
yea but select is a freak. he played probably the game of his career in that match. protoss has the tools to deal with ghosts. it just hasn't caught on yet. its like how in TvZ people complained about Infestor/Broodlord/Corrupter, while the ghost countered it all along. it just took Mvp to show this in all its beauty.
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On September 22 2011 05:44 jimbob615 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 05:35 QTIP. wrote:On September 22 2011 05:25 zmansman17 wrote:On September 20 2011 07:51 Destructicon wrote:
Also, you can't counter EMP with positioning alone, at some point you are forced to fight, and when that happens your units cluster and EMP deals lethal damage. Even if you don't want to fight, the terran will force it upon you either by harassing you to death with drops, but also by harassing your army to death with snipes, EMPs, vikings and pokes.
Just read this and laughed. All races experience clustering, try TvZ against Infestors or TvP against HT and storm. If EMP was something Terran's would have to research the unit would have no utility and not be worth the high price. Just read this and laughed. You're right! Snipe isn't good at all vs Zerg. Complaining about high price, when they reduced the gas cost on the unit by 50. Man - if you think that researching EMP was annoying, imagine if they deleted the Energy Upgrade for the Ghost with it too! Ghost vs HT relationship (at the highest level of play) is insanely Ghost favored. Watch Select vs Alicia. yea but select is a freak. he played probably the game of his career in that match. protoss has the tools to deal with ghosts. it just hasn't caught on yet. its like how in TvZ people complained about Infestor/Broodlord/Corrupter, while the ghost countered it all along. it just took Mvp to show this in all its beauty.
Select is a freak? What do you think about MKP? MVP? MMA? Bomber? These guys are all super freaks then.
If the game is balanced only to the point where if someone is so fucking good that they can "break" the game -- even for just one game, then balance is far from perfect. Even though SC2 is considerably easier than SC:BW, the skill-ceiling is far from reached. As players get better and better, Select's Ghost SNIPE/EMP combo's will become commonplace at the highest level of TvP (assuming no changes).
Also -- in regards to MVP's display of Ghost vs Infestor / Broodlord / Corruptor in "all it's beauty." You do understand that many high-level players refer to that game as one of the main displays of the Ghost's OP-ness? I would not be surprised at all to see a nerf to the ghost in the coming patches.
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4713 Posts
You are badly mistaken about Select, the player is very talented. You are also badly mistaken in saying that Protoss have the means to deal with ghosts, they do not.
However if you believe Select is a lesser player but even so he was able to execute the winning strategy, what is to say that the top of the line terrans in the world, the ones with perfect macro and micro, can't execute the same strategy and just walk over protoss any day of the week?
I'll say it again very clearly, ghosts EMP out ranges Feedback, ghosts snipe out ranges feedback. For the Korean terrans, with their pin point precision with imaginary range grid built into their brains, this really trivializes the encounter.
Once EMP hits the sentries and HT its game over for the protoss.
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On September 22 2011 05:32 okrane wrote:
Why isn't anyone concerned with the lack of a need for gas for the Terran race??? I believe it is the best, numerical evidence of imbalance.
I have watched countless GSL matches, TvZ and TvP and in both match-up, by the end-game of games that Terran has won, they were floating THOUSANDS of gas.
Not needing gas, coupled with mules getting more minerals, means bigger armies, and also lots of upgrades. That way they can stay ahead in upgrades and army size of the other two races who struggle and need to constantly choose between getting more gas-heavy units or investing in upgrades.
Opinions?
that's one of the many reasons, why Terran is not a balanced race.
There no point in discussion when one race has both
Strategys that ensure Winrates over >50% when your opponens opens Macro
Strategys that at the same time ensure Winrates over >50% when your opponent plays the total opposite.
HuKs Game today in GSL is one of the thousand examples we have seen this year.
If one race has the better odds due to design despite everything the opponent could throw at you, you better change the race fast if you are playing for tournament results.
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On September 22 2011 05:54 Destructicon wrote:
You are badly mistaken about Select, the player is very talented. You are also badly mistaken in saying that Protoss have the means to deal with ghosts, they do not.
However if you believe Select is a lesser player but even so he was able to execute the winning strategy, what is to say that the top of the line terrans in the world, the ones with perfect macro and micro, can't execute the same strategy and just walk over protoss any day of the week?
I'll say it again very clearly, ghosts EMP out ranges Feedback, ghosts snipe out ranges feedback. For the Korean terrans, with their pin point precision with imaginary range grid built into their brains, this really trivializes the encounter.
Once EMP hits the sentries and HT its game over for the protoss.
Yes -- thank you.
Do not underestimate how much tip top Pros can abuse that 1 extra range. (especially with scans for additional spotting)
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I had a thought about both EMP and the 1-1-1. I play toss and am NOT trying to start a flame war, I would just like some terran feedback on these suggestions. How drastically would these changes alter your builds/play etc?
1) Make the factory require a barracks w/ tech lab. My thought was that this might delay the factory build enough to allow toss to get some units to defend.
2) EMP is a drain spell for sheilds only, rather than instant. Energy drain will still be instant. Basically allow the recipient to try to split units and mitigate the damage, similarly to what can be done with storms. This would also reward players with good unit control.
These are just idle thoughts I had today, and curious as to what everyone thinks.
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4713 Posts
I don't think that requiring a rax with a tech lab will delay the 1/1/1 push enough for protoss to get extra units and real problem still persists, what units the protoss makes are still quite cost inefficient versus the terran units.
As for the EMP suggestion, it would only solve one half of the problem.
The real problem is that ghost just straight up counters HT, once the energy of HT and sentry is gone the terran can just carpet EMP the protoss army and wait just a little while the shields drain, then attack.
The shield drain just sounds awkward and doesn't solve any problem.
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EPT
