EPTOn September 28 2011 00:16 SeaSwift wrote:
It isn't doubling. It's only 1.5* whatever the production speed is.
It isn't doubling. It's only 1.5* whatever the production speed is.
Ah true, my bad, I'll update the post. Thx.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 128
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Ah true, my bad, I'll update the post. Thx. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
I think that would be a good help to Toss. At the time when Amulet was removed ghosts were more expensive and hardly being used, and nobody used infestors. Now that both races are using those units a ton more, the amulet won't be as OP and I think needs to be put back in the game. That was such a saving grace for protoss players. Just a thought. | ||
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Shmohawk
Sweden21 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:31 FLuE wrote: Time to put the amulet back in? I think that would be a good help to Toss. At the time when Amulet was removed ghosts were more expensive and hardly being used, and nobody used infestors. Now that both races are using those units a ton more, the amulet won't be as OP and I think needs to be put back in the game. That was such a saving grace for protoss players. Just a thought. Warp-in Storms are the problem with this, not the specifically the Amulet itself. Being able to warp-in a Storm anywhere on the map instantly makes it incredibly hard to drop, harass or even keep a sustained attack going. I'd be fine with Amulet if it only applied to HTs coming from a Gateway rather than a Warpgate. To me a warp-in Storm is equal to being able to hotdrop a Ghost in the middle of a fight like a MULE. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm also really getting tired of hearing Terran players say that they need MULEs to *keep up with the worker count or mining efficiency of Protoss chrono boost*. How long is that nonsensical statement going to last? Yeah, Protoss has chrono boost. And you realize that Protoss players use chrono boost on their workers like... fewer than ten times the entire game, right? (We're certainly done chrono boosting our nexuses by the ten minute mark.) We need to use it on our tech and other structures, while Terran players make dozens of MULEs throughout the entire game and scan once in a while. You're also ignoring how Bliz tweaked the build times of stuff so that chrono is well required for certain units to come out in a decent time i.e. they made teh carrier build times expecting constant chrono. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 27 2011 22:15 Thezzy wrote: 1. Whether or not 100 shields (it did 100% in BW) is good or bad is something too open to debate to really make a statement. Racial bias will always come into this. The fact it does not kill is a big difference from being able to kill. If it could kill, it would be hugely overpowered even if it did 50 damage so it definitely matters. 2. Protoss doesn't have to move once EMPed, the micro against the spell itself ends with splitting up your casters. Terran has to move constantly throughout the battle dodging Colossi beams, Chargelots, Forcefields on top of Storms. Not saying Protoss doesn't have to micro, but anti-EMP micro is very small vs anti-Storm micro. 3. How is EMP spammable against anything other than Archons and 200 energy casters? Once the shields are down or the energy is low any additional EMPs do nothing to Protoss and only cost energy. Continual storms, even if they don't do full damage force Terran to keep moving the Bioball, not dealing any damage to Protoss. 4. Ghosts are not a counter to HT anymore than HT are a counter to Ghosts. Both can nullify the other with Snipe or Feedback. EMP can outrange Feedback, but Feedback can insta-nuke a Ghost. A HT without energy can form an Archon, a Ghost without energy can still shoot at Zealots. The units cannot be compared in any direct way, all they share is that they both have an AoE and anti-caster ability. As much as Protoss may need HT against Bio, Terran needs Ghosts to stay alive just as much. Still, if its going to be a caster duel, I would like both sides to be on equal footing. Both snipe and EMP outrange feedback. Rather than nerf the Ghost, I would like to see HTs speed be equal to the other casters. This puts the burden on the protoss players to control them well, rather than nerf the Ghost. HTs move as slow as the Thor and are out-ranged by Ghosts. This doesn't even go into the fact Ghosts cost less gas, have a cheaper starting building and come with EMP. Saying that they are on equal footing is silly. A speed increase isn't out of this world buff. | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:34 Thezzy wrote: Warp-in Storms are the problem with this, not the specifically the Amulet itself. Being able to warp-in a Storm anywhere on the map instantly makes it incredibly hard to drop, harass or even keep a sustained attack going. I'd be fine with Amulet if it only applied to HTs coming from a Gateway rather than a Warpgate. To me a warp-in Storm is equal to being able to hotdrop a Ghost in the middle of a fight like a MULE. You are white knighting so much about how hard Terrans have it. Reminds me of Painuser. Terrans killing everything and he's making a huge deal about how +1 Immortal range is going to turn the matchup upside down. Are you happy with the state of PvT? If not, how would you change it? Let's skip the part where you suggest Protosses have 400 apm on the new apm measuring scale and spread every single Templar, having 4 speed observers on 4 sides of the main army so we never get caught out of position, and somehow simultaneously be prepared for 1-1-1 and aggressive early rax pressure. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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silentblob
Great Britain40 Posts
But I also think that without mutalisks TvZ would be very imbalanced. I personally feel the whole problem is from 'Hold Position'. Air units just press one button to avoid splash damage, whereas ground units have so much more work cut out for them. I feel like mutalisk splits, would help balance, maybe hold position has a reduced area of spreading, so that the units slightly overlap. This would make Hunter Seeker and Thors slightly more effective. But not make mutalisks useless. I don't think terran need any buffs against Zerg at the moment, I just mean in all cases against Air, vikings, mass banshees late game, pheonixs etc. The patrol flower was bad, but I feel like hold position is a bit too good. I know this has the chance to ruin muta play, but I feel like it would really encourage more micro skill, and less terrans would rage over lots of mutas... I am not in anyway trying to suggest we nerf mutas. Just feel air hold position is a bit weird. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:52 Belial88 wrote: Hongun went double stargate, and Tassadar went 4 gate. I have no sympathy for all the Protoss being knocked out of the GSL when they continue to cheese. There's some great P's like Sage, MC, Genius, but players like Hongun and Tassadar should've been knocked out a long time ago. Generally players do not cheese because they want to, but because they believe they won't win a straight up game. Perhaps some Protoss feel like they have to cheese to have a fair shot at winning, and even then it isn't enough. It is obvious to everyone Protoss isn't doing well, it is also obvious that there isn't anything magical with people who pick Terran, as such, the fault likely lies in the races themselves. As for the Ghost vs Templar discussion, one thing I really do not understand is why EMP covers twice as big of an area as Storm, even if they were even in that department EMP would still be far superior, right now it is just over the top. | ||
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-y0shi-
Germany994 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:52 Belial88 wrote: Hongun went double stargate, and Tassadar went 4 gate. I have no sympathy for all the Protoss being knocked out of the GSL when they continue to cheese. There's some great P's like Sage, MC, Genius, but players like Hongun and Tassadar should've been knocked out a long time ago. The question is: Do they cheese because theyre bad. Or do they know their race cant play a macrogame and decide to cheese. Look at sage, 8 dt one trick pony build. Its a cool build but nothing solid. | ||
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P3rytt
137 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:52 Belial88 wrote: Hongun went double stargate, and Tassadar went 4 gate. I have no sympathy for all the Protoss being knocked out of the GSL when they continue to cheese. There's some great P's like Sage, MC, Genius, but players like Hongun and Tassadar should've been knocked out a long time ago. Too bad those gimmicky strats are the only way for protoss to get the W at the highest level right now. 200 P vs 200 Z or T is like starting a 100meter dash 10 meters behind the starting line... I think the problem definitely lies in the caster units considering the Infestor, ghost and HT are meant to be mirror units that achieve similar purposes and have similar traits yet ghosts have twice the utility. I can't believe people honestly think HT's are a proper counter to ghosts... you can only one shot the ghost if you're lucky enough to land FB before they've spent their energy and even then you need one feedback for every ghost as opposed to one EMP for the whole pack of HT's plus some units' shields. Both Infestor and ghost have trainable increased energy but they spawn with their strongest abilities available (emp and fungal) whereas protoss has to train storm and can only cast it after pooling energy for a bit. If Amulet really is an issue just make it an increased energy regeneration rate passive ability but do the same with moebius and pathogen glands. Here are two ideas for tuning ghosts that I think are reasonnable: 1. Make EMP only remove energy and replace snipe with an aoe damage ability that bypasses or removes shields. The current EMP is just too easy to gain access to and does too much for just one ability. This would actually force terrans to spend more energy and get more ghosts if they want to counter casters AND take off Protoss shields. Additionally, one of those abilities should be trainable to stay on par with the two other units. 2. Make it so EMP only consumes a limited amount of shield or energy, the idea behind this is that if your gameplan is to use EMP to completely wipe the shields off the protoss army AND make sentries/Hts useless you're gonna need a shit load of ghosts to the point where it will make your MMM ball much smaller¸ focing the player to carefully aim the EMP's and wait for the best opportunities to land them (alot like the way protoss players have to handle their storms). | ||
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Jcnorheim
United States51 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:52 Belial88 wrote: Hongun went double stargate, and Tassadar went 4 gate. I have no sympathy for all the Protoss being knocked out of the GSL when they continue to cheese. There's some great P's like Sage, MC, Genius, but players like Hongun and Tassadar should've been knocked out a long time ago. Yes, we know, you have no sympathy for Protoss players who 4 gate. We don't blame you. 4-gating is all-in and cheese. So stop going around posting that you have no sympathy. And for the record, no one is asking for your sympathy. | ||
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Bashion
Cook Islands2612 Posts
Make the armory a requirement to connect a techlab to a starport. This would make a banshee opening less forgiving for a terran player. 2port banshee would take more time and it would delay a 111 push significantly. Plus, terran players only go for a banshee army composition when going mech, thus they will make a armory anyway. Any thoughts? | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
On September 28 2011 02:03 Bashion wrote: I have an idea about the 111 and 2port banshee against zerg: Make the armory a requirement to connect a techlab to a starport. This would make a banshee opening less forgiving for a terran player. 2port banshee would take more time and it would delay a 111 push significantly. Plus, terran players only go for a banshee army composition when going mech, thus they will make a armory anyway. Any thoughts? The main problem is addons arent unique anymore. Reactor a rax and start building a starport right there the moment factory finishes. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On September 28 2011 02:03 Bashion wrote: I have an idea about the 111 and 2port banshee against zerg: Make the armory a requirement to connect a techlab to a starport. This would make a banshee opening less forgiving for a terran player. 2port banshee would take more time and it would delay a 111 push significantly. Plus, terran players only go for a banshee army composition when going mech, thus they will make a armory anyway. Any thoughts? you can't stop add-on switching, if your going to make armoury required, make it for the problematic units (banshee) | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:52 Belial88 wrote: Hongun went double stargate, and Tassadar went 4 gate. I have no sympathy for all the Protoss being knocked out of the GSL when they continue to cheese. There's some great P's like Sage, MC, Genius, but players like Hongun and Tassadar should've been knocked out a long time ago. I guess you hate all those Terran that 2rax'ed allin or 1-1-1'ed and those Zerg that baneling bust or roach ling allin too. They're in the GSL, they know to play macro games better than 99.9% of the world, but because so much is on the line, they're only gonna do what they think is going to win. Personally, I think Terran's and Zerg's late game is very strong as Protoss at their level so an allin might have better chances than a macro game. | ||
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Bashion
Cook Islands2612 Posts
On September 28 2011 02:15 Cyber_Cheese wrote: you can't stop add-on switching, if your going to make armoury required, make it for the problematic units (banshee) It simply wouldnt connect. You can land the starpot the starport next to a techlab, but if the player doesnt have an armory, it will just sit there. That animation of a pipe connecting both buildings wouldnt occur. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 28 2011 01:37 QTIP. wrote: Yes, we know, you have no sympathy for Protoss players who 4 gate. We don't blame you. 4-gating is all-in and cheese. So stop going around posting that you have no sympathy. And for the record, no one is asking for your sympathy. I dunno about 4gate, but a 2 base all-in is the best way of playing PvZ on Dual Sight, imo, and double Stargate isn't too bad as far as that goes. If Code A is any indication, he could've done the mass DT drop instead, and been hailed as a hero of the Protoss race if it suceeded. | ||
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