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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On December 25 2015 21:26 Laserist wrote: I believe it is not because of English skills rather attitude: For enjoyment : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/500607-this-weeks-balance-test-map?page=3#46 He said he not from america. So all good. no harm done  Stop putting fuel in fire you don't understand. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 25 2015 21:22 Ghanburighan wrote: Not arguing with your claims, just pointing out to anyone using these statistics that one Bo3 going the other way makes >1% difference on the final result. Variance is just too high to make conclusions. I'm pretty sure that if you took such a small sample from any period considered reasonably balanced, you'd get similar numbers more often than not. I was responding to person that made quite unreasonable claims about GSL/SSL results. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On December 25 2015 22:18 RoomOfMush wrote: Guys, maybe you should all stop the hate crimes and go back to topic: which is bitching about units you dont like. RoomOfMush understands. I don't like Queens, Roaches, Ravagers and Swarm Hosts. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On December 25 2015 21:33 keglu wrote: I was responding to person that made quite unreasonable claims about GSL/SSL results. Yes, I understand. I didn't want to contribute to that discussion or to detract from what your main message was. I just used the stats in your post for illustration. Probably should have made this more clear. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 25 2015 21:22 Ghanburighan wrote: Not arguing with your claims, just pointing out to anyone using these statistics that one Bo3 going the other way makes >1% difference on the final result. Variance is just too high to make conclusions. I'm pretty sure that if you took such a small sample from any period considered reasonably balanced, you'd get similar numbers more often than not. Also, statistics is about ranges, not precise numbers. What I see looking at those stats is that the matchups are at 50% +\- 5% So far the game is very balanced. | ||
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Merkmerk
United States96 Posts
What? How can you look at top 16 and say 'game is very balanced' I don't care about bottom of the barrel qualifier games - I care about the top 16 - and when I see Life get manhandled with ease by Terran, and Zerg in general get completely trounced by both P and T, this whole wood league narrative of 'Zerg is OP' falls apart. | ||
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Eiltonn
Germany307 Posts
On December 26 2015 06:28 Merkmerk wrote: I don't care about bottom of the barrel qualifier games - I care about the top 16 - and when I see Life get manhandled with ease by Terran, and Zerg in general get completely trounced by both P and T, this whole wood league narrative of 'Zerg is OP' falls apart. Lol. Top 16 is full of scrubs. Only Finals should be taken into consideration when judging balance. MMA won the latest tourney. Obvious conclusion terran must be OP as fuck :D | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 26 2015 01:07 Thieving Magpie wrote: Also, statistics is about ranges, not precise numbers. What I see looking at those stats is that the matchups are at 50% +\- 5% So far the game is very balanced. Winrate in principle always converges to 50%, which is why winrate alone is not that great. If there are in the RO32 three players left from race X. One of them loses, two win and go to RO16. One loses, one wins to RO8, where that guy loses. If you kept count we are now at 3 wins, 3 losses, so perfectly balanced! Minus that only 3 of race X made it into the RO32. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On December 26 2015 06:28 Merkmerk wrote: ^ What? How can you look at top 16 and say 'game is very balanced' I don't care about bottom of the barrel qualifier games - I care about the top 16 - and when I see Life get manhandled with ease by Terran, and Zerg in general get completely trounced by both P and T, this whole wood league narrative of 'Zerg is OP' falls apart. 'I don't care about evidence that counters my argument, what I care about is when my favorite player plays like shit and then justifiably loses. That shouldn't happen!' Neat. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
On December 26 2015 06:28 Merkmerk wrote: ^ What? How can you look at top 16 and say 'game is very balanced' I don't care about What I understand from this, seriously. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Stats are great but with such a limited timeframe and soon a different game version and maybe another they are hardly more than guidelines. I would much rather focus on topics that are gameplayrelated right now. Specific, frequent - that's where you can work in statistics - scenarios that seem to be too advantageous for one side. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 26 2015 09:06 Big J wrote: About those stats, they are completely fine for the samplesize. Basically every GSL/SSL qualifier of the past years had comparable amounts of games and always featured matchups with winrates between 55-60%. if you dig hard enough you will find qualifiers with winrates between 70-80% in one or another matchup in 2014-15, and noone would consider the game that broken at that time. Stats are great but with such a limited timeframe and soon a different game version and maybe another they are hardly more than guidelines. I would much rather focus on topics that are gameplayrelated right now. Specific, frequent - that's where you can work in statistics - scenarios that seem to be too advantageous for one side. Which is why we really should stop talking about "imbalance" since, for the most part, the top players eventually are even with each other. What you have to do is make philosophical statements on what you believe represents a race or faction. For example, what *should* Terran be good at in the early game? What even counts as the early game? What do we allow or not allow Terran to do in that time frame. What about the late game? What about the mid game? The game is fairly balanced as is. The conversation should be more honest and direct. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On December 26 2015 09:54 Thieving Magpie wrote: Which is why we really should stop talking about "imbalance" since, for the most part, the top players eventually are even with each other. What you have to do is make philosophical statements on what you believe represents a race or faction. For example, what *should* Terran be good at in the early game? What even counts as the early game? What do we allow or not allow Terran to do in that time frame. What about the late game? What about the mid game? The game is fairly balanced as is. The conversation should be more honest and direct. No, it isn't fairly balanced, but I get the sentiment of what you're saying. The other element worth mentioning, when discussing pro level series play, is that pro players have player-specific match-ups, rivalries, and are playing Bo[X] series and often have builds planned well in advance. Build-order wins, lucks, rivalries, all of these things affect the way stats eventually pan out. The approach to balance is different than just flat win-rates at the macro level of high-level leagues. They are looking at things like the power of units, timing rushes, and the level at which certain upgrades change the dynamic of the game. Then you have us recreational-level players. No matter what, if you play X, you will lose versus X, Y, and Z because of the match-maker. There is always someone better, always someone worse. The best we can get is when the match-maker says "even match up". PET PEAVE - can we stop calling the Liberator a siege unit? It's not. Never has been. It can't attack buildings, has a marine-sized-attack area, and starts with a casting range of 5. | ||
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Merkmerk
United States96 Posts
On December 26 2015 08:03 gillon wrote: 'I don't care about evidence that counters my argument, what I care about is when my favorite player plays like shit and then justifiably loses. That shouldn't happen!' Neat. If you think Life 'played like shit' then you haven't played as Zerg against 3 rax reaper into 3 cc What's funny is how many people are trying to keep the Zerg is OP narrative going while GSL directly contradicts this - oh but these top zerg players just played like shit and lost playing an Op race right? Yeah that's totally what happened in those games /rolleyes | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 27 2015 08:19 Merkmerk wrote: If you think Life 'played like shit' then you haven't played as Zerg against 3 rax reaper into 3 cc What's funny is how many people are trying to keep the Zerg is OP narrative going while GSL directly contradicts this - oh but these top zerg players just played like shit and lost playing an Op race right? Yeah that's totally what happened in those games /rolleyes I haven't seen the series in question but I sincerely hope that Terran isn't being balanced around mass Reaper early game all day every day. That would be fucking dumb. | ||
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Merkmerk
United States96 Posts
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HallofPain4444
Japan71 Posts
On December 27 2015 08:19 Merkmerk wrote: If you think Life 'played like shit' then you haven't played as Zerg against 3 rax reaper into 3 cc What's funny is how many people are trying to keep the Zerg is OP narrative going while GSL directly contradicts this - oh but these top zerg players just played like shit and lost playing an Op race right? Yeah that's totally what happened in those games /rolleyes Well u still need Korean pro level skill to pull it off. It's not one click and boom stuff like Disruptor or Parasitic bomb. Mass reapers harass actually takes insane amount of micro skill to pull off. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 27 2015 08:19 Merkmerk wrote: If you think Life 'played like shit' then you haven't played as Zerg against 3 rax reaper into 3 cc What's funny is how many people are trying to keep the Zerg is OP narrative going while GSL directly contradicts this - oh but these top zerg players just played like shit and lost playing an Op race right? Yeah that's totally what happened in those games /rolleyes He played ling/bane/muta in both games. Based on what i saw in LOTV it's not really viable composition. Losira looked much stronger againts Byun/Bunny than Life. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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