|
On December 27 2015 22:18 Xequecal wrote:
I still maintain that Protoss will just die to proxy reaper cheese if the overcharge nerf stays in. What can Protoss possibly do off 1 gate expand? They can proxy two barracks and still wall off their ramp with a third rax so probe scout can't see anything. 1 gate doesn't produce units fast enough to hold it off and when overcharge runs out you're done.
then your probescout is too late. you could even 12scout in LotV without a big impact on your income.
|
On December 27 2015 22:18 Xequecal wrote:
I still maintain that Protoss will just die to proxy reaper cheese if the overcharge nerf stays in. What can Protoss possibly do off 1 gate expand? They can proxy two barracks and still wall off their ramp with a third rax so probe scout can't see anything. 1 gate doesn't produce units fast enough to hold it off and when overcharge runs out you're done.
I am going to tell you a secret: If you 1 rax expand as terran you also are in a really bad position vs 3 rax reapers. That this isn't an issue for protoss maybe shows that the photon cannon is a little bit too easy (and you still have it ready with the proposed changes).
So what do we terrans do? We scout. Okay not everyone does it, but it really is a good idea. And when my opponent goes 3 rax reapers, you do not fast expand but try to put up a credible defense. By the way: You do realise you still have the Adept? Currently adepts are already really good vs Reapers, but if you make them armored they can only be tickled to death by reapers).
Also just because one thing is broken, does not mean your race also needs broken stuff. Personally the reaper grenades should just be removed, or at least the countdown doubled so it is not as spammable. That would be a possible solution against broken reapers, not giving protoss a defend vs all tool.
Similar parasitic bile. Personally, I think there are problems around the Liberator. So zerg think they should have a broken as fuck ability against it. And Terran think they need liberator because PB is broken. (Protip: Don't watch Avilo's stream. Serious I think some of his forum posts are quite descent, but why anyone would want to watch a guy constantly whining all the time about PB while has Liberator army chops the zerg into pieces and he easily wins is beyond my comprehension). The solution is not to counter one OP unit with another OP unit, since that leaves alot of shit units behind. The solution is to hit the OP unit with the nerf bat.
|
I agree Sissors, I think in order to make the game more exciting units and abilities were added that let you be incredibly aggressive and to counter attacks with stronger hard counters like the lib/pb situation. Nerfing units would dampen this but I don't think Blizzard would want that given they are looking to have much shorter games now focussing on micro rather than macro, most of the GSL pre-season games lasted 15-20 minutes.
|
Pylon Overcharge? How about Cannon Overcharge?
The current version still feels wrong: Its almost a blind counter to any aggresion, while not actually being an investment.
Why not turning a defensive unit into a better defensive unit? I guess there are many ways: Simply buff Photon Cannons. The obvious stuff: Better damage, attack speed etc. . .Of course with adjustment to price or build time. Or a research upgrade. Nobody wants to turn the game into Tower Rush. Or turn the Pylon Overcharge into Cannon Overcharge. Which could add shields, damage and/or splash. The idea is simple: Photon Cannons are an investment. So are Spine Crawler, Bunker or Planetary Fortresses. Defending out of *nothing* shouldnt be a thing.
|
On December 29 2015 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:
Pylon Overcharge? How about Cannon Overcharge?
The current version still feels wrong: Its almost a blind counter to any aggresion, while not actually being an investment.
Why not turning a defensive unit into a better defensive unit? I guess there are many ways: Simply buff Photon Cannons. The obvious stuff: Better damage, attack speed etc. . .Of course with adjustment to price or build time. Or a research upgrade. Nobody wants to turn the game into Tower Rush. Or turn the Pylon Overcharge into Cannon Overcharge. Which could add shields, damage and/or splash. The idea is simple: Photon Cannons are an investment. So are Spine Crawler, Bunker or Planetary Fortresses. Defending out of *nothing* shouldnt be a thing.
People like you just don't get it. Protoss is balanced around this mechanic. It can't cost much or require cannons, otherwise it would be useless and Protoss would die to most random things. Overcharge cannot be taken away unless gateway units get serious buffs in all aspects, especially speed.
|
On December 29 2015 11:05 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:
Pylon Overcharge? How about Cannon Overcharge?
The current version still feels wrong: Its almost a blind counter to any aggresion, while not actually being an investment.
Why not turning a defensive unit into a better defensive unit? I guess there are many ways: Simply buff Photon Cannons. The obvious stuff: Better damage, attack speed etc. . .Of course with adjustment to price or build time. Or a research upgrade. Nobody wants to turn the game into Tower Rush. Or turn the Pylon Overcharge into Cannon Overcharge. Which could add shields, damage and/or splash. The idea is simple: Photon Cannons are an investment. So are Spine Crawler, Bunker or Planetary Fortresses. Defending out of *nothing* shouldnt be a thing. People like you just don't get it. Protoss is balanced around this mechanic. It can't cost much or require cannons, otherwise it would be useless and Protoss would die to most random things. Overcharge cannot be taken away unless gateway units get serious buffs in all aspects, especially speed.
Yeah, people like me dont get it. Things like Warp Prism, DT, Oracle, Phoenix, Adepts arent random...right?. Especially adept defense is a piece of cake...right? What are these random things that can happend to Protoss btw?
|
On December 29 2015 11:50 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 11:05 CheddarToss wrote:On December 29 2015 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:
Pylon Overcharge? How about Cannon Overcharge?
The current version still feels wrong: Its almost a blind counter to any aggresion, while not actually being an investment.
Why not turning a defensive unit into a better defensive unit? I guess there are many ways: Simply buff Photon Cannons. The obvious stuff: Better damage, attack speed etc. . .Of course with adjustment to price or build time. Or a research upgrade. Nobody wants to turn the game into Tower Rush. Or turn the Pylon Overcharge into Cannon Overcharge. Which could add shields, damage and/or splash. The idea is simple: Photon Cannons are an investment. So are Spine Crawler, Bunker or Planetary Fortresses. Defending out of *nothing* shouldnt be a thing. People like you just don't get it. Protoss is balanced around this mechanic. It can't cost much or require cannons, otherwise it would be useless and Protoss would die to most random things. Overcharge cannot be taken away unless gateway units get serious buffs in all aspects, especially speed. Yeah, people like me dont get it. Things like Warp Prism, DT, Oracle, Phoenix, Adepts arent random...right?. Especially adept defense is a piece of cake...right? What are these random things that can happend to Protoss btw?
Ultralisk doomdrops and carrier/tempest rushes. Obviously.
|
Everyone knows that mech is in a really bad spot in all matchups in LotV.
This is due to a huge number or reasons but I think the key reason is that mech is too expensive to get going with the new changed economy.
Basically you need to invest so much resources just to get your infrastructure going that your opponent can expand at will or invest everything in units getting a large army advantage.
This will not solve all problems with mech but it will make it easier to expand and put pressure on your opponent, not being forced to turtle just to stay alive until late mid game.
In order to not make bio Terrans stronger I suggest that the price of stim to be increased with the same amount as the cost of 0.5 factories, thus making this cost neutral for bio Terrans in the early game.
It will also make it slightly easier for bio Terrans to complement their army with mech units in the lategame, i.e. producing Thors against Ultralisks.
|
Right now, stim bio dominates in all three matchups.
Stim bio dominates and makes ling/bane/muta obsolete. There's other factors to this, like the reduced larva and libs countering mutas hard. Roach/ravager just does the trick for now, but has big trouble against drops and roaches scale terrible into the lategame.
Stim bio in tvt makes mech look bad. Bio still wrecks mech thanks to higher mobility afaik, but there's also tankivacs (dropping in siege mode should be removed imo).
Stim bio makes protoss not build disruptors because it just dodges the shots too easily. With the armored adept, bio will wreck gateway armies even harder than before. Immortals are just mediocre and zealot 8 damage on charge is useless since most zealots don't even get to hit once in big army engagements.
So I feel the game might be better if stimmed bio movement speed was reduced a bit. It would help banelings get more hits in, disruptors might actually become viable and tanks would get more hits in before getting rekt. Also less mobility issues for mech in tvt, since bio would be a bit slower on the ground. Speedvacs still a thing tho, of course.
There are probably several bigger problems right now, but I wanted to get my thoughts in anyway :D GLHF
|
On December 29 2015 11:50 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 11:05 CheddarToss wrote:On December 29 2015 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:
Pylon Overcharge? How about Cannon Overcharge?
The current version still feels wrong: Its almost a blind counter to any aggresion, while not actually being an investment.
Why not turning a defensive unit into a better defensive unit? I guess there are many ways: Simply buff Photon Cannons. The obvious stuff: Better damage, attack speed etc. . .Of course with adjustment to price or build time. Or a research upgrade. Nobody wants to turn the game into Tower Rush. Or turn the Pylon Overcharge into Cannon Overcharge. Which could add shields, damage and/or splash. The idea is simple: Photon Cannons are an investment. So are Spine Crawler, Bunker or Planetary Fortresses. Defending out of *nothing* shouldnt be a thing. People like you just don't get it. Protoss is balanced around this mechanic. It can't cost much or require cannons, otherwise it would be useless and Protoss would die to most random things. Overcharge cannot be taken away unless gateway units get serious buffs in all aspects, especially speed. Yeah, people like me dont get it. Things like Warp Prism, DT, Oracle, Phoenix, Adepts arent random...right?. Especially adept defense is a piece of cake...right? What are these random things that can happend to Protoss btw?
atm?
speedling drops since toss would be forced to open FFE vs zerg
Oracles and 4 gates in pvp
bio pushes
bio pushes with a cyclone
Bio tank pushes
Bio tank liberator pushes
widow mine drops.
Toss even has the most nerfed macro mechanic :D
Photon bullshit is retarded and should be removed but saying that protoss can go without it without any buff is idiotic.
Toss already lose in macro games to both T and Z
|
On December 29 2015 18:37 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 11:50 Heyjoray wrote:On December 29 2015 11:05 CheddarToss wrote:On December 29 2015 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:
Pylon Overcharge? How about Cannon Overcharge?
The current version still feels wrong: Its almost a blind counter to any aggresion, while not actually being an investment.
Why not turning a defensive unit into a better defensive unit? I guess there are many ways: Simply buff Photon Cannons. The obvious stuff: Better damage, attack speed etc. . .Of course with adjustment to price or build time. Or a research upgrade. Nobody wants to turn the game into Tower Rush. Or turn the Pylon Overcharge into Cannon Overcharge. Which could add shields, damage and/or splash. The idea is simple: Photon Cannons are an investment. So are Spine Crawler, Bunker or Planetary Fortresses. Defending out of *nothing* shouldnt be a thing. People like you just don't get it. Protoss is balanced around this mechanic. It can't cost much or require cannons, otherwise it would be useless and Protoss would die to most random things. Overcharge cannot be taken away unless gateway units get serious buffs in all aspects, especially speed. Yeah, people like me dont get it. Things like Warp Prism, DT, Oracle, Phoenix, Adepts arent random...right?. Especially adept defense is a piece of cake...right? What are these random things that can happend to Protoss btw? atm? speedling drops since toss would be forced to open FFE vs zerg Oracles and 4 gates in pvp bio pushes bio pushes with a cyclone Bio tank pushes Bio tank liberator pushes widow mine drops. Toss even has the most nerfed macro mechanic :D Photon bullshit is retarded and should be removed but saying that protoss can go without it without any buff is idiotic. Toss already lose in macro games to both T and Z
Without pylon overcharge Protoss would immediately die to 3 Rax cheese and early Ravager pushes.
It's like saying that Terran and Zerg would be OK if MULEs and Inject were removed.
|
On December 29 2015 20:30 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 18:37 HellHound wrote:On December 29 2015 11:50 Heyjoray wrote:On December 29 2015 11:05 CheddarToss wrote:On December 29 2015 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:
Pylon Overcharge? How about Cannon Overcharge?
The current version still feels wrong: Its almost a blind counter to any aggresion, while not actually being an investment.
Why not turning a defensive unit into a better defensive unit? I guess there are many ways: Simply buff Photon Cannons. The obvious stuff: Better damage, attack speed etc. . .Of course with adjustment to price or build time. Or a research upgrade. Nobody wants to turn the game into Tower Rush. Or turn the Pylon Overcharge into Cannon Overcharge. Which could add shields, damage and/or splash. The idea is simple: Photon Cannons are an investment. So are Spine Crawler, Bunker or Planetary Fortresses. Defending out of *nothing* shouldnt be a thing. People like you just don't get it. Protoss is balanced around this mechanic. It can't cost much or require cannons, otherwise it would be useless and Protoss would die to most random things. Overcharge cannot be taken away unless gateway units get serious buffs in all aspects, especially speed. Yeah, people like me dont get it. Things like Warp Prism, DT, Oracle, Phoenix, Adepts arent random...right?. Especially adept defense is a piece of cake...right? What are these random things that can happend to Protoss btw? atm? speedling drops since toss would be forced to open FFE vs zerg Oracles and 4 gates in pvp bio pushes bio pushes with a cyclone Bio tank pushes Bio tank liberator pushes widow mine drops. Toss even has the most nerfed macro mechanic :D Photon bullshit is retarded and should be removed but saying that protoss can go without it without any buff is idiotic. Toss already lose in macro games to both T and Z Without pylon overcharge Protoss would immediately die to 3 Rax cheese and early Ravager pushes. It's like saying that Terran and Zerg would be OK if MULEs and Inject were removed. I like how you phrase it as if I said something you disagree with 
|
24-25 TvZ
34-28 TvP
33-22 ZvP
Upsets
Rogue < Billowy
Byun < Creator
Classic < Hush
Ryung < random zerg
Solar < Bomber
|
On December 29 2015 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:
24-25 TvZ
34-28 TvP
33-22 ZvP
Upsets
Rogue < Billowy
Byun < Creator
Classic < Hush
Ryung < random zerg
Solar < Bomber
Not much to see today. Although the raw numbers would be more useful if we'd seen the games.
|
On December 29 2015 21:16 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 20:30 CheddarToss wrote:On December 29 2015 18:37 HellHound wrote:On December 29 2015 11:50 Heyjoray wrote:On December 29 2015 11:05 CheddarToss wrote:On December 29 2015 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:
Pylon Overcharge? How about Cannon Overcharge?
The current version still feels wrong: Its almost a blind counter to any aggresion, while not actually being an investment.
Why not turning a defensive unit into a better defensive unit? I guess there are many ways: Simply buff Photon Cannons. The obvious stuff: Better damage, attack speed etc. . .Of course with adjustment to price or build time. Or a research upgrade. Nobody wants to turn the game into Tower Rush. Or turn the Pylon Overcharge into Cannon Overcharge. Which could add shields, damage and/or splash. The idea is simple: Photon Cannons are an investment. So are Spine Crawler, Bunker or Planetary Fortresses. Defending out of *nothing* shouldnt be a thing. People like you just don't get it. Protoss is balanced around this mechanic. It can't cost much or require cannons, otherwise it would be useless and Protoss would die to most random things. Overcharge cannot be taken away unless gateway units get serious buffs in all aspects, especially speed. Yeah, people like me dont get it. Things like Warp Prism, DT, Oracle, Phoenix, Adepts arent random...right?. Especially adept defense is a piece of cake...right? What are these random things that can happend to Protoss btw? atm? speedling drops since toss would be forced to open FFE vs zerg Oracles and 4 gates in pvp bio pushes bio pushes with a cyclone Bio tank pushes Bio tank liberator pushes widow mine drops. Toss even has the most nerfed macro mechanic :D Photon bullshit is retarded and should be removed but saying that protoss can go without it without any buff is idiotic. Toss already lose in macro games to both T and Z Without pylon overcharge Protoss would immediately die to 3 Rax cheese and early Ravager pushes. It's like saying that Terran and Zerg would be OK if MULEs and Inject were removed. I like how you phrase it as if I said something you disagree with
You are right, I worded my post rather poorly. It was meant as an addition to the reasons you already listed in your post. Sorry.
|
On December 29 2015 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:
24-25 TvZ
34-28 TvP
33-22 ZvP
Upsets
Rogue < Billowy
Byun < Creator
Classic < Hush
Ryung < random zerg
Solar < Bomber
If I read these results right then TvZ is basically at 50%, TvP at 54,8% and ZvP at 60%, out of 166 games (a decent large sample imo). Looks rather bad for protoss,
|
On December 29 2015 22:15 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:
24-25 TvZ
34-28 TvP
33-22 ZvP
Upsets
Rogue < Billowy
Byun < Creator
Classic < Hush
Ryung < random zerg
Solar < Bomber If I read these results right then TvZ is basically at 50%, TvP at 54,8% and ZvP at 60%, out of 166 games (a decent large sample imo). Looks rather bad for protoss,
A lot of the games are stuff like SGW losing to Losira and other very standard results. It doesn't look bad, I'd say the most distinctive feature is that it went pretty much as expected in most cases.
|
On December 29 2015 22:30 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 22:15 Salteador Neo wrote:On December 29 2015 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:
24-25 TvZ
34-28 TvP
33-22 ZvP
Upsets
Rogue < Billowy
Byun < Creator
Classic < Hush
Ryung < random zerg
Solar < Bomber If I read these results right then TvZ is basically at 50%, TvP at 54,8% and ZvP at 60%, out of 166 games (a decent large sample imo). Looks rather bad for protoss, A lot of the games are stuff like SGW losing to Losira and other very standard results. It doesn't look bad, I'd say the most distinctive feature is that it went pretty much as expected in most cases.
Winrates are probably strongly influenced by the map pool of Orbital Shipyard/Dusk Towers/Ruins of Seras though.
|
On December 29 2015 22:15 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:
24-25 TvZ
34-28 TvP
33-22 ZvP
Upsets
Rogue < Billowy
Byun < Creator
Classic < Hush
Ryung < random zerg
Solar < Bomber If I read these results right then TvZ is basically at 50%, TvP at 54,8% and ZvP at 60%, out of 166 games (a decent large sample imo). Looks rather bad for protoss,
Statistically speaking the sample size is not big enough. Testing for 50% balance you need roughly 4-times as big of a sample size with the same win percentages for PvZ (132-88) to prove a significant divergance from 50%. To prove TvP imbalanced you need roughly 8-10 times the sample size.
But at least for ZvP we have many more similar stats so we can safely assume that the matchup is imbalanced.
|
On December 29 2015 22:45 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 22:30 Nebuchad wrote:On December 29 2015 22:15 Salteador Neo wrote:On December 29 2015 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:
24-25 TvZ
34-28 TvP
33-22 ZvP
Upsets
Rogue < Billowy
Byun < Creator
Classic < Hush
Ryung < random zerg
Solar < Bomber If I read these results right then TvZ is basically at 50%, TvP at 54,8% and ZvP at 60%, out of 166 games (a decent large sample imo). Looks rather bad for protoss, A lot of the games are stuff like SGW losing to Losira and other very standard results. It doesn't look bad, I'd say the most distinctive feature is that it went pretty much as expected in most cases. Winrates are probably strongly influenced by the map pool of Orbital Shipyard/Dusk Towers/Ruins of Seras though.
When Terran does well, it's the map's fault. When Terran is struggling, there must be a balance problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
