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On December 30 2015 10:37 CheddarToss wrote:
What? Even in the Code A qualifiers Terrans performed a tinny bit better than Protoss. So no, you don't need to be TY or Innovation to win vs Protoss.
Just pointing out that the Code A quals were basically the most notable people qualifying with only a handful of exceptions, including a terran getting knocked out by a no-name. 60 slots and perhaps even intentionally constructed brackets made for very few surprises and basically every good player getting through. The final matches were also basically useless matches given how they used the seeding, so I don't think they contain useful info.
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I'm going to respond to your post a little bit out of order, Spyridon, so I can more clearly show where I'm coming from.
Your trying to hard to try to prove that SC2 intends for players to use compositions produced from only 1 building, when the mechanics of the game, the popular compositions, and even their patch notes you mention yourself, indicate that they want VARIED compositions developed from MULTIPLE production buildings.
Have you forgotten what TvT was like for 5 years before LotV? Pure mech was very playable, and often provided for the very best quality TvTs. Factory+Ravens was also playable in late HotS TvZ, although it's debateable whether that was "mech" or not even before the 40 minute mark when the game turned into a Viper vs Raven shitfest.
Two months of mech being phased out of every MU through some accidental consequences of Blizz's leap-before-looking economic changes does not indicate to me that they have a clear idea of what the hell they want Factory units to be and to do. You think that this all somehow comes together in a cohesive anti-Factory philosophy (developed... halfway through HotS? Certainly not earlier) but all I see is a bunch of unhappy accidents that are now, slowly but surely, starting to be rectified with the Thor buff.
Do you really want to just make a composition of only bio or factory units that badly? Or do you want to prove Terran is under powered that badly? Not sure why your so desperately avoiding the truth that the game is not and was never intended to support pure compositions from a single building... Don't you see even the examples you provide back that up?
Once again I'll start by saying that "only factory" was a workable composition in TvT, and it made for great games, and so I see no immediately compelling reason why we should close the book on that composition.
That said, I find great irony in the image you paint of me as some sort of mech extremist, when the very first thing I did in my post was agree with you that "bio" is a very relative term. If I think that it's OK for "bio" to have, under its umbrella, some WMs, some Tanks, some Thors, some Medivacs, some Liberators, you don't think that I might also be OK with "mech" having, under its umbrella, some Marauder hit squads, or some Medivacs to move the Tanks around, or some Liberators adding extra space control?
But there's nothing remotely like that, except maybe on Avilo's stream...
So they dont want MMM to be strong vs everything... That does not equal "they want you to go mech"... Theres the huge list of factory units you listed PLUS starbase PLUS the other bio units like Ghost (who are actually decent vs Ultras).
Your trying to twist them trying to encourage variety in their compositions in to meaning "They want you to go mech only"... when in reality it indicates only what I was explaining, that Terran compositions are intended to be a variety of units and not overwhelmed by 1 unit type.
Wait, what?
They removed all variety from TvT, they removed all variety from TvZ (which had bio, bio/mech, and pure mech all serving as workable comps in HotS), they maybe possibly added some variety to midgame TvP via Tankivac, and this somehow supports your point that they want more variety?
What I see is more Marine/Marauder now than ever before.
What I see is less variety than ever.
Crazy that you are trying to say a decrease in Bio strength at late T3 somehow means they want Mech to be the only viable path, when many of the strongest units vs Ultras come from Barracks and Starport...
Even if I insisted on pure mech being playable in every MU (which I never have), how you jump from that to me wanting Blizzard to phase out bio in favor of mech is totally beyond me.
The only thing your example indicates is that mech is NOT INTENDED to be used as "factory units alone". That is precisely why there is "no working composition"! Which, again, was the point of my last post. The entire design of Terran supports this - You need 1 production building in order to tech to the next. How much more obvious do they have to be that you are not supposed to use Bio, Mech, or Air units alone?
I bolded this because of how wrong it is, and I would hate for this gem to go overlooked.
Brood War.
"The entire design of Terran [in Brood War] supports this - You need 1 production building in order to tech to the next. How much more obvious do they have to be that you are not supposed to use [Mech] alone?"
When, in fact, Brood War mech had a less varied unit comp than SC2 bio OR SC2 mech.
So you'll excuse me for taking your word for understanding Blizzard's philosophy on mech with a grain of salt in the future.
If you can't get a working composition from pure mech working, doesn't that indicate you are NOT SUPPOSED TO use pure mech???
1. You could in TvT and TvZ in HotS. So could you point me to the blog post or interview where DK explains the point during which their thought process on heavy mech play changed from "it's cool" to "it's not cool"?
2. You are assuming that 1) Blizzard has a coherent internal philosophy regarding Mech, and 2) they never make mistakes or accidentally cause chain reactions that have unintended consequences on the game. Both of these assumptions are highly questionable at best.
I remain perfectly unconvinced that the Factory is in a good place and that Terran should be perfectly happy to have only one dominant playstyle in every MU, utilizing the same core units in exactly the same ways.
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On December 31 2015 04:24 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2015 13:59 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 30 2015 12:56 SirPinky wrote:This is a masters TvP mech game. The Protoss essentially did two different one-base all-ins (adept into DT) that could easily have won the game unless it was perfectly defended. I tried to counter with a WM drop but it was defended with nothing but pylons; both mines couldn't even burrow because of pylons! While I still won this game, it is absurd that a Protoss can be on nearly even footing in a macro game after their one base all-in failed (twice). Any Terran or Zerg would simply 'GG' out of the game...except it was a Protoss. Enjoy! http://ggtracker.com/matches/6357954 So what are you saying? You used an outdated build, it failed, his all ins failed, he capitalized on you going mech to ecogreed, you won because of your advantage Your post contributes nothing to this discussion... Did you even watch the replay? Outdated build? What i'm saying is there is nothing I could have done to punish Protoss. He does two different all-ins and they both fail, yet he can take an expansion uncontested as long as he has a pylon built there. The result would have been the same with Bio play; it speaks to the inability to punish Protoss for their cheesy, typically game-ending builds, and there is no risk if they fail...they just macro like it never happend. I'm sorry if you missed the boat on deductive reasoning but it is simple: Reduce pylon overcharge spamming and adept all-ins. Protoss should actually need units at a base to shutdown an entire attack.
You're basically complaining that you didn't win the game fast enough. Static defense can help defend against small attacks, regardless of the race. Next time, focus down the mothership core or just contain/ out-expand the Protoss if it's too easy for him to defend his one base. When he gets to 2 or 3 bases, he can't defend all of them with just his mothership core.
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On December 30 2015 12:56 SirPinky wrote:This is a masters TvP mech game. The Protoss essentially did two different one-base all-ins (adept into DT) that could easily have won the game unless it was perfectly defended. I tried to counter with a WM drop but it was defended with nothing but pylons; both mines couldn't even burrow because of pylons! While I still won this game, it is absurd that a Protoss can be on nearly even footing in a macro game after their one base all-in failed (twice). Any Terran or Zerg would simply 'GG' out of the game...except it was a Protoss. Enjoy! http://ggtracker.com/matches/6357954
why the hell did u build 14 missle turrets? thats alot.. especially vs a total of 4 flying enemy units all game long...
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Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets.
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On December 31 2015 17:11 Sissors wrote:
Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets.
I hear that good scouting and map awareness are pretty popular styles too. The game was just weird and not an indicator of any imbalance.
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On December 31 2015 17:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 17:11 Sissors wrote:
Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets. I hear that good scouting and map awareness are pretty popular styles too. The game was just weird and not an indicator of any imbalance.
I don't know what you are trying to tell exactly, but are you saying you can properly scout to prevent a warp prism from ever entering your base? I am not saying it is impossible, a complete viking ring around your bases would do it, but I do question if it isn't cheaper to just go for the turret ring.
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On December 31 2015 18:01 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 17:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 31 2015 17:11 Sissors wrote:
Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets. I hear that good scouting and map awareness are pretty popular styles too. The game was just weird and not an indicator of any imbalance. I don't know what you are trying to tell exactly, but are you saying you can properly scout to prevent a warp prism from ever entering your base? I am not saying it is impossible, a complete viking ring around your bases would do it, but I do question if it isn't cheaper to just go for the turret ring.
One sensor tower. Terrans seem to forget that exists.
My God if I had sensor towers I'd never lose a PvT.
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On December 31 2015 23:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 18:01 Sissors wrote:On December 31 2015 17:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 31 2015 17:11 Sissors wrote:
Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets. I hear that good scouting and map awareness are pretty popular styles too. The game was just weird and not an indicator of any imbalance. I don't know what you are trying to tell exactly, but are you saying you can properly scout to prevent a warp prism from ever entering your base? I am not saying it is impossible, a complete viking ring around your bases would do it, but I do question if it isn't cheaper to just go for the turret ring. One sensor tower. Terrans seem to forget that exists. My God if I had sensor towers I'd never lose a PvT.
Honestly 125/100 at the point in the game where warp prisms are the most dangerous are probably spent better on other things. Before 3+ bases they're mostly a waste of money. But when you have that many bases you usually get enough army and production to defend warp prisms anyway.
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On December 31 2015 09:41 Spyridon wrote:
The only thing your example indicates is that mech is NOT INTENDED to be used as "factory units alone". That is precisely why there is "no working composition"! Which, again, was the point of my last post. The entire design of Terran supports this - You need 1 production building in order to tech to the next. How much more obvious do they have to be that you are not supposed to use Bio, Mech, or Air units alone?
If you can't get a working composition from pure mech working, doesn't that indicate you are NOT SUPPOSED TO use pure mech???
This is besides the fact that your REQUIRED to get a barracks before factory, indicating that bio is meant to be used alongside mech.
I wanted to address a few points that weren't already covered here. I started a FAQ that anyone can feel free to edit and/or expand upon.
Why should mech be viable? Protoss players don't demand that robo play should be viable!
1. The Terran ground army is still fragmented by upgrades; not a single upgrade is universally shared across all ground units.
2. Factory units, in general, do not mesh well with bio gameplay.
But for attack and armor, there's five upgrades total for each race anyway!
One has to consider the average length of LOTV matches, the costs, and the tech involved. Terran must obtain a tier 3 tech building, the Armory, to start mech upgrades. Protoss and Zerg require a Tier 1 building.
Additionally, if each race wanted to get their ground units fully upgraded in a timely manner, consider the initial investment involved:
Zerg: three drones + three evolution chambers = 375/0 + opportunity cost of three larvae
Protoss: three forges: 450/0
Terran: two engineering bays + two armories = 550/200 + cost of lost mining time for each worker for the entire duration of construction
Given the short and harass-heavy nature of LOTV matches, long term investments must be made more cautiously, and higher initial investment costs do, indeed, take their toll.
What do you mean that factory units generally don't mesh well with bio gameplay?
Bio relies on stutter step micro, kiting enemy armies, punishing the enemy army during retreats, and multiprong harass. Bio, due to its fragility, must be able to retreat in a timely manner. Overall, this style strongly deters against using units that lack the speed and mobility to keep pace.
That being said, we do have some examples of factory units that exhibit some synergy with bio. This is abundantly clear with the widow mine, which can punish an enemy army during a Bio retreat. Siege tanks, in a similar role, are cost-prohibitive.
The introduction of the tankivac allows Terran players to re-position siege tanks. While effective, it requires a significant amount of actions to micro tankivacs, in addition to the micro already required by bio play. Consider how action-heavy a simple retreat is for bio + tankivac, relative to a Gateway + Robo composition. The latter has no immobilized units, and units like the disruptor have sufficient move speed to keep pace.
Lastly, the Hellbat hypothetically synergizes well with bio due to medivac healing, but its move speed and vast amount of space it takes up in a medivac, prevent it from seeing much use with bio.
You shouldn't cross-compare! The races are supposed to be asymmetrical!
I think this argument actually supports why mech should be viable. Blizzard, by design, fragmented the Terran ground army. There must be some reasoning behind this. If Blizzard meant Terran to be predominately bio + factory support, then the current design suppresses this in practice.
If the Terran ground army is supposed to be fragmented by upgrades and playstyle, one would anticipate that there would be some benefit for doing so. At least initially, it seems like this was Blizzard's intention. Recall back in WoL that Terran had 6 total attack and armor upgrades. Factory units had completely separate upgrades from bio or air, just like in Brood War. We saw this changed in HOTS, but the upgrade design still deterred players from playing a biomech style. Now that Blizzard has backpedaled from the factory+air style that the HOTS upgrade combinations promoted, it's more unclear what Blizzard's intent is at this point. I think what we're seeing now are the consequences of uncertainty from the design team.
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Blizzard didn't fragment the upgrades because they thought, you know, Terran should have two completely different play styles.
They fragmented the upgrades because when they initially designed the game, before a pro scene ever existed, it made sense to them. The same way that a flying Command Center can't land on a Zergling. The same way that Banshee pilots are Female. Why? Who the fuck knows. That's how they designed it.
Now as players we want to play the best possible way. This is why bio is prevalent.
Even if "mech was viable" people would still play bio if bio was better. In order for mech to really truly be viable it would have to be JUST AS GOOD or better than bio.
IMO this isn't going to happen because it's really hard to beat the Marine on cost effectiveness.
Also, buffing certain mech units too much will make people just use them WITH bio (see the Liberator).
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On December 31 2015 23:25 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 23:21 DinoMight wrote:On December 31 2015 18:01 Sissors wrote:On December 31 2015 17:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 31 2015 17:11 Sissors wrote:
Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets. I hear that good scouting and map awareness are pretty popular styles too. The game was just weird and not an indicator of any imbalance. I don't know what you are trying to tell exactly, but are you saying you can properly scout to prevent a warp prism from ever entering your base? I am not saying it is impossible, a complete viking ring around your bases would do it, but I do question if it isn't cheaper to just go for the turret ring. One sensor tower. Terrans seem to forget that exists. My God if I had sensor towers I'd never lose a PvT. Honestly 125/100 at the point in the game where warp prisms are the most dangerous are probably spent better on other things. Before 3+ bases they're mostly a waste of money. But when you have that many bases you usually get enough army and production to defend warp prisms anyway.
I think Terran players need to be a bit more pragmatic. If everyone is getting their mineral lines annihilated by Adept drops anytime they try to move out then doesn't that make the 125/100 investment even more worth it? That way you know for sure if you're in danger or if it's safe to move out and pressure him.
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France12818 Posts
On January 01 2016 00:34 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 23:25 Elentos wrote:On December 31 2015 23:21 DinoMight wrote:On December 31 2015 18:01 Sissors wrote:On December 31 2015 17:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 31 2015 17:11 Sissors wrote:
Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets. I hear that good scouting and map awareness are pretty popular styles too. The game was just weird and not an indicator of any imbalance. I don't know what you are trying to tell exactly, but are you saying you can properly scout to prevent a warp prism from ever entering your base? I am not saying it is impossible, a complete viking ring around your bases would do it, but I do question if it isn't cheaper to just go for the turret ring. One sensor tower. Terrans seem to forget that exists. My God if I had sensor towers I'd never lose a PvT. Honestly 125/100 at the point in the game where warp prisms are the most dangerous are probably spent better on other things. Before 3+ bases they're mostly a waste of money. But when you have that many bases you usually get enough army and production to defend warp prisms anyway. I think Terran players need to be a bit more pragmatic. If everyone is getting their mineral lines annihilated by Adept drops anytime they try to move out then doesn't that make the 125/100 investment even more worth it? That way you know for sure if you're in danger or if it's safe to move out and pressure him.
If the T has mech the P will wait with his warp prism at the limit of the sensor tower and when the T's army is halfway he'll start dropping?
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On January 01 2016 00:25 DinoMight wrote:
Blizzard didn't fragment the upgrades because they thought, you know, Terran should have two completely different play styles.
They fragmented the upgrades because when they initially designed the game, before a pro scene ever existed, it made sense to them. The same way that a flying Command Center can't land on a Zergling. The same way that Banshee pilots are Female. Why? Who the fuck knows. That's how they designed it.
Now as players we want to play the best possible way. This is why bio is prevalent.
Even if "mech was viable" people would still play bio if bio was better. In order for mech to really truly be viable it would have to be JUST AS GOOD or better than bio.
IMO this isn't going to happen because it's really hard to beat the Marine on cost effectiveness.
Also, buffing certain mech units too much will make people just use them WITH bio (see the Liberator).
There is different ways then making both armies equally good. If you look at BW you will see that terran rarely goes bio against protoss. This is not because bio is weak. In fact bio is pretty good against zealots and dragoons. But bio also melts within seconds when hit by reavers and/or storms. Its not bio that is worse then mech, its protoss having hard counters against bio.
For this very reason you rarely, if ever, see any bio play in TvP. However, there are a few games every now and then where a terran players goes bio anyway and wins! Why? Because the protoss player didnt see it coming or didnt know how to react. Bio is so rare that it gains the benefit of surprise which makes it stronger again.
It feels to me like these kinds of things dont exist anymore in SC2. Bio is good and mech is less good in every match up. Maybe mech would become better in one match up if the other race gets some kind of buff.
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On January 01 2016 00:46 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2016 00:34 DinoMight wrote:On December 31 2015 23:25 Elentos wrote:On December 31 2015 23:21 DinoMight wrote:On December 31 2015 18:01 Sissors wrote:On December 31 2015 17:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 31 2015 17:11 Sissors wrote:
Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets. I hear that good scouting and map awareness are pretty popular styles too. The game was just weird and not an indicator of any imbalance. I don't know what you are trying to tell exactly, but are you saying you can properly scout to prevent a warp prism from ever entering your base? I am not saying it is impossible, a complete viking ring around your bases would do it, but I do question if it isn't cheaper to just go for the turret ring. One sensor tower. Terrans seem to forget that exists. My God if I had sensor towers I'd never lose a PvT. Honestly 125/100 at the point in the game where warp prisms are the most dangerous are probably spent better on other things. Before 3+ bases they're mostly a waste of money. But when you have that many bases you usually get enough army and production to defend warp prisms anyway. I think Terran players need to be a bit more pragmatic. If everyone is getting their mineral lines annihilated by Adept drops anytime they try to move out then doesn't that make the 125/100 investment even more worth it? That way you know for sure if you're in danger or if it's safe to move out and pressure him. If the T has mech the P will wait with his warp prism at the limit of the sensor tower and when the T's army is halfway he'll start dropping?
If you're moving out with mech before you can defend a single Warp Prism you're doing something wrong.
I would say that something wrong is playing mech... but whatever.
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On January 01 2016 00:50 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2016 00:25 DinoMight wrote:
Blizzard didn't fragment the upgrades because they thought, you know, Terran should have two completely different play styles.
They fragmented the upgrades because when they initially designed the game, before a pro scene ever existed, it made sense to them. The same way that a flying Command Center can't land on a Zergling. The same way that Banshee pilots are Female. Why? Who the fuck knows. That's how they designed it.
Now as players we want to play the best possible way. This is why bio is prevalent.
Even if "mech was viable" people would still play bio if bio was better. In order for mech to really truly be viable it would have to be JUST AS GOOD or better than bio.
IMO this isn't going to happen because it's really hard to beat the Marine on cost effectiveness.
Also, buffing certain mech units too much will make people just use them WITH bio (see the Liberator). There is different ways then making both armies equally good. If you look at BW you will see that terran rarely goes bio against protoss. This is not because bio is weak. In fact bio is pretty good against zealots and dragoons. But bio also melts within seconds when hit by reavers and/or storms. Its not bio that is worse then mech, its protoss having hard counters against bio. For this very reason you rarely, if ever, see any bio play in TvP. However, there are a few games every now and then where a terran players goes bio anyway and wins! Why? Because the protoss player didnt see it coming or didnt know how to react. Bio is so rare that it gains the benefit of surprise which makes it stronger again. It feels to me like these kinds of things dont exist anymore in SC2. Bio is good and mech is less good in every match up. Maybe mech would become better in one match up if the other race gets some kind of buff.
Lol, listen to yourself. It's not that bio is bad, it's that it instantly loses to Reavers and Storm.
Okay then...
What makes a unit composition bad? I would say if multiple hard counters that are easily obtainable exist then a composition is bad. For example if I went for a Probe/Zealot composition, that would be bad.
Mech in BW was a much more solid composition not as easily countered and it didn't have a timer that made it limited to allins.
In SC2, there are mech based cheeses (1/1/1 type things) but bio is the standard play.
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On January 01 2016 00:34 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 23:25 Elentos wrote:On December 31 2015 23:21 DinoMight wrote:On December 31 2015 18:01 Sissors wrote:On December 31 2015 17:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 31 2015 17:11 Sissors wrote:
Probably because warp prism can really hurt tank based mech, alot worse than normal bio. While there are obviously different styles, it is quite common to see mech players make many turrets. I hear that good scouting and map awareness are pretty popular styles too. The game was just weird and not an indicator of any imbalance. I don't know what you are trying to tell exactly, but are you saying you can properly scout to prevent a warp prism from ever entering your base? I am not saying it is impossible, a complete viking ring around your bases would do it, but I do question if it isn't cheaper to just go for the turret ring. One sensor tower. Terrans seem to forget that exists. My God if I had sensor towers I'd never lose a PvT. Honestly 125/100 at the point in the game where warp prisms are the most dangerous are probably spent better on other things. Before 3+ bases they're mostly a waste of money. But when you have that many bases you usually get enough army and production to defend warp prisms anyway. I think Terran players need to be a bit more pragmatic. If everyone is getting their mineral lines annihilated by Adept drops anytime they try to move out then doesn't that make the 125/100 investment even more worth it? That way you know for sure if you're in danger or if it's safe to move out and pressure him.
100 gas could be a medivac or a viking or 4 marauders, it could be saved up and used to make a liberator. Things that actually can help prevent the damage from happening. Smart Protosses will just wait until you move out and then get into sensor tower range anyway, or just take a different angle because one tower can never cover all approaches. Unless you're definitely getting all-inned it's not worth the investment on 2 bases since it messes up your production imo.
It's not like you're forced to move out and get your mineral lines slaughtered in TvP anyway since late game is so good for Terran atm.
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On January 01 2016 00:56 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2016 00:50 RoomOfMush wrote:On January 01 2016 00:25 DinoMight wrote:
Blizzard didn't fragment the upgrades because they thought, you know, Terran should have two completely different play styles.
They fragmented the upgrades because when they initially designed the game, before a pro scene ever existed, it made sense to them. The same way that a flying Command Center can't land on a Zergling. The same way that Banshee pilots are Female. Why? Who the fuck knows. That's how they designed it.
Now as players we want to play the best possible way. This is why bio is prevalent.
Even if "mech was viable" people would still play bio if bio was better. In order for mech to really truly be viable it would have to be JUST AS GOOD or better than bio.
IMO this isn't going to happen because it's really hard to beat the Marine on cost effectiveness.
Also, buffing certain mech units too much will make people just use them WITH bio (see the Liberator). There is different ways then making both armies equally good. If you look at BW you will see that terran rarely goes bio against protoss. This is not because bio is weak. In fact bio is pretty good against zealots and dragoons. But bio also melts within seconds when hit by reavers and/or storms. Its not bio that is worse then mech, its protoss having hard counters against bio. For this very reason you rarely, if ever, see any bio play in TvP. However, there are a few games every now and then where a terran players goes bio anyway and wins! Why? Because the protoss player didnt see it coming or didnt know how to react. Bio is so rare that it gains the benefit of surprise which makes it stronger again. It feels to me like these kinds of things dont exist anymore in SC2. Bio is good and mech is less good in every match up. Maybe mech would become better in one match up if the other race gets some kind of buff. Lol, listen to yourself. It's not that bio is bad, it's that it instantly loses to Reavers and Storm. Okay then... What makes a unit composition bad? I would say if multiple hard counters that are easily obtainable exist then a composition is bad. For example if I went for a Probe/Zealot composition, that would be bad. Mech in BW was a much more solid composition not as easily countered and it didn't have a timer that made it limited to allins. In SC2, there are mech based cheeses (1/1/1 type things) but bio is the standard play.
What he is saying is reavers hard countering an entire tech tree is good game design, but immortals soft countering an entire tech tree is bad game design.
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On January 01 2016 00:25 DinoMight wrote:
Blizzard didn't fragment the upgrades because they thought, you know, Terran should have two completely different play styles.
They fragmented the upgrades because when they initially designed the game, before a pro scene ever existed, it made sense to them. The same way that a flying Command Center can't land on a Zergling. The same way that Banshee pilots are Female. Why? Who the fuck knows. That's how they designed it.
Now as players we want to play the best possible way. This is why bio is prevalent.
Even if "mech was viable" people would still play bio if bio was better. In order for mech to really truly be viable it would have to be JUST AS GOOD or better than bio.
IMO this isn't going to happen because it's really hard to beat the Marine on cost effectiveness.
Also, buffing certain mech units too much will make people just use them WITH bio (see the Liberator).
How exactly do you know what was Blizzard developers thought process?
Im pretty confused about whole discussion if Blizzard wants mech to be vaiable playstyle, It was viable in 2 matchups in last expansion.
Quote from last update
"We are looking at ways to get a little more mech play in Terran matchups"
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Well, I don't really understand why everyone is making such a fuss about mech. The Factory composition from Brood War was gutted ever since they turned the Goliath into a Starport unit that could only exclusively attack its ground/air enemies when in the same state, and split the Vulture into the Hellion, a 1a splash counter-Zealot (Hellbat), and a 2 supply little bomb, the WM. Blizzard will never ever reverse these changes, so pls stop asking for them.
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EPT
