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On August 13 2011 03:21 PumaPete wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:07 AdamBanks wrote:
PumaPete United States. August 13 2011 02:58. Posts 2
nodicaL Canada. August 13 2011 02:35. Posts 2
epb1982 August 13 2011 02:15. Posts 2
Kaane Sweden. August 13 2011 01:32. Posts 7
Is it just me or are there an abnomally large number of 2 post accounts in this thread, the majority of which promote a korean free NASL?
This is just the last couple of pages, I noticed it ealier but im not counting all 148 o.o
edited: Psypod Brazil. August 13 2011 03:05. Posts 8 Cause i don't post much my opinion doesn't matter? Its not about race its about the fact that NASL tried to give them more and they turned it down. I don't think the NASL should suffer because of greedy people.
In the later post I explain that my interest is in if these are duplicate accounts. I did not intent to insult anyones post count I was more concerned with people not respecting their TL id. Your oppinion is as valid (or invalid) as the next TL members. (Provided ur not a troll)
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On August 13 2011 03:14 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:59 BlueFlames wrote:
Wow this thread is getting overrun by a few posters who seem to think that we need to make contracts for every fucking thing in sc2. Sure lets make contracts with the players even before the qualifiers start. As a korean team, lets make contracts with every player that stays at our house, even though they will never sign it, cause we dont have enough money to even pay them and to actually ensure they could stay with us. Sure lets make contracts about everything and every shit i can come up with.
Having only the official information from the viewpoint of the NASL the facts are clear.
Korean teams send their players to the qualifiers, knowing exactly what they would have to pay and what circumstances they would get into (latency, workhours etc.). After their players qualified, they want to renegotiate in their favor. NASL gives them a better offer. Not enough for the korean teams, so that the start of the actual season is screwed up, by the very late decision of the SC2Con.
Post by the likes of Tripper, even though he puts a lot of work into repeating his own assumptions over and over again, do not really adress the issues that the OP made out to be a problem. (btw. google what your name means in german. very funny indeed). No you cannot make a contract for fucking everything or otherwise no tournament would ever get started, or take 1 year until all the organisational parts are dealt with.
In other threads people were talking so highly of the korean ethics and their moral standards when it comes to business. And especially mentioned that things are done differently in Korea. I can see that now *waving the sarcasm sign*. Very funny comments in retrospect. Basicly it comes down to a few things no matter where you do your business, relationships, influence and money. So from a business standpoint i am not suprised by how the korean side decided. As a fan though, i am deeply disappointed. You basically reiterated what I wrote. It came down to failed negotiations and a business decision. How is that repeating assumptions? The article makes it pretty clear the demands were stated in advance of season 2 production, the demands were not met, Koreans played hardball and left. Given the history between the parties, it's not surprising at all. Enlighten me. What are the problems the OP wants to address and how do you wish to address them? And what are these terrible assumptions that I'm making that are not helping this thread?
So after reading most of the thread and all responses from the NASL it seems pretty clear, that they were put into a infavorable situation. I dont know what you consider early enough, but for me a renegotiation after their players qualified, is too late. And giving notice a day before they start shooting or one day after they start shooting is basicly screwing them over big time. Further to deligate all negotiations through Mr. Chae seems a bit odd if you ask me. Dont they as an organisation have a spokesperson or a voice? GOM and Mr. Chae got some flak from people who are to dumb to read and all this was unnecessary, but i guess they did not want to put their own face on the whole matter.
From a business standpoint a i can understand your argument. Legally they did nothing wrong. But from a fans standpoint they screwed the NASL big time. Look at SlayersBoxer. He faced the same problems and concerns and so he declined a further participation in the league. But he did it in a timely fashon, which means he did not try to play games.
To be honest, and this is just an assumption on my part, i can fully understand why slayers is not part of the SC2Con, even though that might have other reasons too. The way they behave and from what you hear from most team-managers from foreigner teams, this organisation is not trustworthy in the least.
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On August 13 2011 03:21 PumaPete wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:07 AdamBanks wrote:
PumaPete United States. August 13 2011 02:58. Posts 2
nodicaL Canada. August 13 2011 02:35. Posts 2
epb1982 August 13 2011 02:15. Posts 2
Kaane Sweden. August 13 2011 01:32. Posts 7
Is it just me or are there an abnomally large number of 2 post accounts in this thread, the majority of which promote a korean free NASL?
This is just the last couple of pages, I noticed it ealier but im not counting all 148 o.o
edited: Psypod Brazil. August 13 2011 03:05. Posts 8 Cause i don't post much my opinion doesn't matter? Its not about race its about the fact that NASL tried to give them more and they turned it down. I don't think the NASL should suffer because of greedy people.
Understand that this is not being greedy. This is just them analyzing the facts and deciding it's not worth coming to USA to compete over something that is not certain. If it's true that their sponsorship do not pay them much, then I think they've made the right choice. And that's when we need to turn our eyes to other players. Take it as South Korea to be what Brazil represents on Soccer and on what USA represents on Basketball.
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Sadly i will not be watching without Koreans for the simple reason that i enjoyed watching how foreigners slowly improved and closed the skill gap, without them playing the scene doesnt have enough hype or drama.
It is sad however for the NASL to lose these 'elite' players as i suspect many like me will lose interest in the NASL. Last season they were able to craft groups very well with each group have 2-3 Korean players (dont quote me) and a good foreigner mix. I dont see how they will be able to craft groups better in Season 2 as i believe Korean Players do provide much more interest in the League
I also feel that Mr Chae thinks that the efforts made byt he NASL are insufficient in comparison to what the GSL has done in terms of instant Code A spots for players previously and a house for competing foreign players without bills and food i think.
On the flip side i also do not understand why Koreans are reluctant to join. The two Last MLG's had Korean champions and with the rest of them doing really well they could easily make so much more money T_T MONEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
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On August 13 2011 03:23 AdamBanks wrote:
In the later post I explain that my interest is in if these are duplicate accounts. I did not intent to insult anyones post count I was more concerned with people not respecting their TL id. Your oppinion is as valid (or invalid) as the next TL members. (Provided ur not a troll)
If people are using duplicate accounts to reiterate their opinions, it's just silly. This is far from being an official poll.
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Some Korean players are in violation of contracts.
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
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On August 13 2011 03:26 muddymuddy wrote:Some Korean players are in violation of contracts. Show nested quote + WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
Source this please.
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On August 13 2011 03:26 KaizenOSU wrote:
Sadly i will not be watching without Koreans for the simple reason that i enjoyed watching how foreigners slowly improved and closed the skill gap, without them playing the scene doesnt have enough hype or drama.
It is sad however for the NASL to lose these 'elite' players as i suspect many like me will lose interest in the NASL. Last season they were able to craft groups very well with each group have 2-3 Korean players (dont quote me) and a good foreigner mix. I dont see how they will be able to craft groups better in Season 2 as i believe Korean Players do provide much more interest in the League
Putting 2-3 Koreans on each group would make it easier for Koreans to get to the finals. No wonder why in MLG Anaheim we had almost only Koreans in the finals bracket. So where's the fun in it? Just because they dominate the game doesn't mean we need to have all of them in the finals. That only discourages players to keep improving.
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On August 13 2011 03:19 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:14 BlueFlames wrote:On August 13 2011 03:09 Psypod wrote:
@BlueFlames
It's not about contracts, but SC2 is growing on a proportion that needs to have things to control it. Make it an official sport like Chess that requires mental skills. When things get to this point, it envolves a lot of money and interests. It goes beyond our silly view of things of mere spectators cheering for the players! Yeah, but we arent there yet. Chess tournaments, especially those on a large scale that involve qualifiers and the participation of several grandmasters take a very long time to organise and have existed for decades. SC2 is very young and you cant try to grow it, by enforcing contracts that would have to be put out by lawyers that can deliver a binding contract for every player that might be attending. I am not just speaking of the koreans. What about chinese players? You can see how such a process would spread actual tournaments very far apart, dont you. Thats my point. You cannot strangle a growing sport, even before it starts to fully mature and you will need a lot of time and money to do it in a safe way, that could be enforce if need be everywhere around the world. I agree with you completely. That doesn't change the circumstances or outcomes of anything that has happened. No matter how much talk there is of good will, it only takes one screwed up tourney, one shady player deal, or one misinformed representative to bring all this up again. Mass contracts obviously aren't viable but the last few months, we've seen the problems that can arise when people try to use this to their advantage. What then, is the solution?
I dont want to throw around the blame without having all the information, but to me it seems that the korean sc2 scene is really in its infancy. Thats all their is to it. Their scene is not nearly as big as the international one and they expect us, to play by their rules and to accomodate their wishes. After the last few weeks, that seems to be the issue. I migh be wrong though. You never get all the information as a bystander anyways.
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On August 13 2011 03:27 AdamBanks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:26 muddymuddy wrote:Some Korean players are in violation of contracts. WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2. Source this please.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253928¤tpage=18#345
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On August 13 2011 03:28 muddymuddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:27 AdamBanks wrote:On August 13 2011 03:26 muddymuddy wrote:Some Korean players are in violation of contracts. WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2. Source this please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253928¤tpage=18#345
Look at this vaunted Korean honour and ethics that they hold a such high regard for. Look how they respect the contracts they sign, and don't renege on their word. Apparently it only counts if it's a perceived slight against them and not the other way around.
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I just see people throwing out excuse's that koreans were some how indeed mistreated. I dont see it, unreasonable hours/schedule of games, travel expense's not high enough even after renegotiations. 2,000 dollars is not alot of money to go on say vacation with, because you will be touring the area's going out to dinner, paying for random activities. If you can fly to america for 1300 dollars and still have 700 in "living" expensive's for a week that is way more then enough. Hell if all I was doing was going to play in a video game tournament, I would talk to my pals and discuss bunking up in a single hotel room, and then pocket a couple hundred extra since you know money is so tight. Money isnt tight for me atm, but when I go to say las vegas I still get a double room if I am going with a friend or even a few and get a bunk added to the room!
This issue sounds more like an organization trying to give blueballs to nasl. Maybe some of the players complained about some of the hours of the matches, I do understand that. But when there is not that much money to be made in esports and they know this too, I am sure they were 100% fine with the idea of a chance at a good prize pool. It would be nice to know how many subs nasl took away from gom/gsl. I know I have been paying for both, but because of these type of actions I think ill just stick to the nasl and give my money and support to a non korean organization. I've watched sc for a very long time, and have always read about the drama's between the organizations trying to run esports in korea. It has always seemed as if the players get screwed over.
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On August 13 2011 03:28 Psypod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:26 KaizenOSU wrote:
Sadly i will not be watching without Koreans for the simple reason that i enjoyed watching how foreigners slowly improved and closed the skill gap, without them playing the scene doesnt have enough hype or drama.
It is sad however for the NASL to lose these 'elite' players as i suspect many like me will lose interest in the NASL. Last season they were able to craft groups very well with each group have 2-3 Korean players (dont quote me) and a good foreigner mix. I dont see how they will be able to craft groups better in Season 2 as i believe Korean Players do provide much more interest in the League Putting 2-3 Koreans on each group would make it easier for Koreans to get to the finals. No wonder why in MLG Anaheim we had almost only Koreans in the finals bracket. So where's the fun in it? Just because they dominate the game doesn't mean we need to have all of them in the finals. That only discourages players to keep improving.
Well 'we' dont need to have them the NASL needs to have them. it seems inevitable they will lose many viewers who bought into the NASL because they truly were the only league to provide international matches daily.
and your comment about wheres the fun in it? well if they truly are the best they will be in the finals bracket regardless of what group they are in. Fun isnt a factor here, SC2 is a competitive e-sport, a competition to win and make MONEYYYYYYYYY
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On August 13 2011 03:21 Psypod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:14 BlueFlames wrote:On August 13 2011 03:09 Psypod wrote:
@BlueFlames
It's not about contracts, but SC2 is growing on a proportion that needs to have things to control it. Make it an official sport like Chess that requires mental skills. When things get to this point, it envolves a lot of money and interests. It goes beyond our silly view of things of mere spectators cheering for the players! Yeah, but we arent there yet. Chess tournaments, especially those on a large scale that involve qualifiers and the participation of several grandmasters take a very long time to organise and have existed for decades. SC2 is very young and you cant try to grow it, by enforcing contracts that would have to be put out by lawyers that can deliver a binding contract for every player that might be attending. I am not just speaking of the koreans. What about chinese players? You can see how such a process would spread actual tournaments very far apart, dont you. Thats my point. You cannot strangle a growing sport, even before it starts to fully mature and you will need a lot of time and money to do it in a safe way, that could be enforce if need be everywhere around the world. You can't compare things that were happening 30 years ago to things happening nowadays. Things now grow up faster, a lot faster. Everything is a lot more volatile these days. SC2 is growing up faster and people need to keep it up with this BOOM. IMO, it won't take long to be having major tournaments offering prizes off our imagination with sponsorships of millions of dollars per year. Can you imagine a hige league in which players can compete for a prize pool of 1 million dollars? Do you think this is a lot of money?
Idk, Chess tournaments are still really, really, really, and I mean really slow. We're talking about months to years of setting up a final. The problem I see with the current format is still the issue of we have the money but they have the players. We can make the biggest, most intriguing, deepest tournaments with amazing production value. None of that helps our players close the skill gap if they're not actually getting play time vs Koreans in tournaments NOW. What will our options be when GSL is no longer the big kahuna in tournaments and every single Code A/B hopeful streams to America to compete? We think the competition is bad now with MLG and NASL? What happens in a year when the skill gap between Koreans (and the handful of actively Korean trained foreigners)
is even higher and they're now flooding here to compete? How would we keep up then? Unless you suggest we close our events to Koreans, this fact alone lends a bit of weight for the Koreans wanting a bit more of the pie for things like NASL. Yes we help their viewership when we go to Korea (and God knows they need it). But at the same time, they not only do that, but they also improve the quality of our tournaments and of our level of play when they enter ours. While it's hard (and I wouldn't dare try) to put a monetary value on this, the fact is, without this interaction, we're just gonna be digging our own graves in a manner of speaking unless more pros follow Nani's footsteps and go to Korea win or lose for the sole reason of getting better (and no, I'm really not a naniwa fan, I just can't help but commend his attitude towards his GSL invite.)
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On August 13 2011 03:28 muddymuddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:27 AdamBanks wrote:On August 13 2011 03:26 muddymuddy wrote:Some Korean players are in violation of contracts. WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2. Source this please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253928¤tpage=18#345
Thanks for the link. I can understand maybe 24-48 hours to decide...but to have a total of 15 calendar days of delay in response, this is ridiculous.
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On August 13 2011 03:28 muddymuddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:27 AdamBanks wrote:On August 13 2011 03:26 muddymuddy wrote:Some Korean players are in violation of contracts. WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2. Source this please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253928¤tpage=18#345
If that's the case then the Koreans are clearly in the wrong. Someone should edit the OP with this info as it would clear everything up.
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o.O. Sue them for breach of contract.
But honestly its all done wrong. If they dont have deposits in by this date then you don't pariticpate and you get replaced.
Deposits and contracts must have a firm deadline. When you are unwilling to hold to those deadlines then you create problems for yourself.
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Does this even matter? Who is gunna watch the NASL after last season?
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yes! I hope HERO wins the next NASL
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EPT
