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Brood Lords having the high ground bonus - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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UniversalMind
Profile Joined March 2011
United States326 Posts
August 09 2011 06:21 GMT
#101
lol I can't even believe this is being discussed xD

you people do realize that broodlings are initially considered a missile attack right?

that's like saying vikings or hydralisk should be revealed when they fire

the carrier on the other hand shouldn't be revealed if its out of range of the attacking target only the interceptors
tuho12345
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
4482 Posts
August 09 2011 06:24 GMT
#102
No wonder the last time I tried carriers vs hydras and got shut down even when I was defending from my base on Xel'Naga
VeryAverage
Profile Joined January 2011
United States424 Posts
August 09 2011 06:27 GMT
#103
I actually had a ZvZ with this happening. He had corrupters that wouldn't allow my overlords to get near the high ground (on taldarim altar near the third) so my hydras couldn't attack the 3 broods sieging my third base

Luckily it was one of those silly games so I destroyed all his buildings.

I can't see this honestly being a big deal though unless you get some weird funky late game protoss situation where they lost their observer to a fungal and can't get vision of the high ground to blink up.
ZombiesOMG
Profile Joined October 2010
United States282 Posts
August 09 2011 06:43 GMT
#104
So this looks like it might be a legitimate bug. I do have a question though. In the Carrier screenshot, which player does that creep belong to, and are you certain it did not allow enough vision to see and select the Carrier for the Hydralisks on the low ground? It looks like the answer to that might be no, but I can't be certain. Retest.

If that creep isn't granting any vision of the Carrier for the Zerg player, then this is definitely an inconsistency that should be fixed. Either the Carrier shouldn't be able to be fired on, or the Broodlord should be. Nice find.
eXeRicH
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany89 Posts
August 09 2011 06:50 GMT
#105
Wow, this game is over 1 year old and still has so many things not even discovered.
Nice find
if tetris has taught me anything, it's that errors pile up and accomplishments disappear... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
MandoRelease
Profile Joined October 2010
France374 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 07:03:11
August 09 2011 06:52 GMT
#106
I don't see how this could be game changing. Even if blizzard make it so that it shows the broodlord when the broodlord attack, you still would not be able to attack the broodlord unless you actually have vision. Doesn't change a thing.

Plus, about the broodlord attack. As far as I understand it, here is how it works. The broolord throws a broodling and make 20 damage, then the broodling attack and deal something like 4 damage (am i correct on that ?). That means, when the broodlord has 2 broodlings behind him, when he attacks, he launches 2 broodlings and deals an immediate 40 damage and brings 2 broodlings on the field, then has to wait for a broodling to respawn behind him before attacking again.
So it just may be that the 20 initial damage are tied to the broodling (which makes sense, since the broodlord can't attack unless he has at least one broodling ready behind him). And thus would explain why we don't see the broodlord on the high ground.

How does it differ from a weapon of, let's say, a vicking ? Well, there are differences in the fact that the wiking always deal the same amount of damage every y.xx seconds (help me on that one), while the broodlord's attack depends on the amount of broodling he has ready to be thrown.

But maybe blizzard will decide that they don't like that anymore, and will show the broodlord. It won't change a thing though, since you need actual vision the attack it, like for every other unit attacking from the high ground.

EDIT : After looking at the picture in the first post, I have to wonder why the carrier lost some HP. I mean you can't attack tanks or canons from the low ground if you don't have vision of them. That would be a bug if you could attack the carrier without vision. Nothing to do with the broodlord. The carrier thing is the bug here, as far as i'm concerned.

EDIT 2 : OK I misunderstood a few things originally. I thought the issue was that the broodlord was not revealed, i did not read that the carrier could be attacked. My mistake. Well, I don't think the issue here lies with the broodlord. The carrier should not be attacked.
When you play the game of drones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground. Huge IMLosirA fan.
BobTheLob
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada362 Posts
August 09 2011 07:02 GMT
#107
After looking at the picture in the first post, I have to wonder why the carrier lost some HP. I mean you can't attack tanks or canons from the low ground if you don't have vision of them. That would be a bug if you could attack the carrier without vision. Nothing to do with the broodlord. The carrier thing is the bug here, as far as i'm concerned.
thats the thing air units always count as being spotted D:
BobTheLob Lurker extraordinaire
MandoRelease
Profile Joined October 2010
France374 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 07:06:19
August 09 2011 07:05 GMT
#108
On August 09 2011 16:02 BobTheLob wrote:
Show nested quote +
After looking at the picture in the first post, I have to wonder why the carrier lost some HP. I mean you can't attack tanks or canons from the low ground if you don't have vision of them. That would be a bug if you could attack the carrier without vision. Nothing to do with the broodlord. The carrier thing is the bug here, as far as i'm concerned.
thats the thing air units always count as being spotted D:


I see now. But was the mustalisk attacked from the stalker (on the image) ? Or was it just shown without being targetable ?

EDIT :nvm, apparently yes. sorry.
When you play the game of drones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground. Huge IMLosirA fan.
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8309 Posts
August 09 2011 07:11 GMT
#109
Good find, that is interesting...
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
Phayze
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2029 Posts
August 09 2011 07:20 GMT
#110
We have learned that as a result of this find, carriers need a buff. Hope to see it next patch blizzard.
Proud member of the LGA-1366 Core-i7 4Ghz Club
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
August 09 2011 07:23 GMT
#111
Maybe because interceptor are air units and broodlinds are gound units?

Anyways, I'd rather have the carrier buffed than the broodlord nerfed.
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
August 09 2011 07:26 GMT
#112
There's always something Blizzard needs to fix, but they are working on it, trust me
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
sVnteen
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2238 Posts
August 09 2011 07:36 GMT
#113
blizzard just wanted to make broodlords even more imbalanced lol

srsly dont think that this has much of an impact to the gameplay since broodlords are unbeatable (without vikings) anyways


good find
MY LIFE STARTS NOW ♥
Intricate1
Profile Joined May 2011
169 Posts
August 09 2011 08:18 GMT
#114
On August 09 2011 12:43 darkscream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2011 12:40 Intricate1 wrote:
Lol at people just blowing this off

Till it gets patched, this mechanic fundamentally changes the strategy of any Broodlord-centric army. There just aren't that many method of maximizing advantage as prevalent as this

Anyone claiming otherwise is just plain wrong


No, it doesn't. You always want to put your brood lords up on a ledge where it's harder for ground units to hit them, anyways.


To highlight the concept

Take for example engagements in the center of Xel'Naga Caverns, The high ground advantage in the OP fundamentally changes the descion making process of how to engage with a broodlord-centric army in relation to the highlighted terrain.

Not considering the OP in the everyday use of your broodlords is just wasting advantage


[image loading]
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1438 Posts
August 09 2011 08:24 GMT
#115
You wouldnt want the broodlords up there anyways. Towers, plus they can only control one path from the ledges.

It might be a factor in the future, on other maps. but that example is not one.
Baller Fanclub || CheAse Fanclub || Scarlett Fanclub || LJD FIGHTING!
Intricate1
Profile Joined May 2011
169 Posts
August 09 2011 08:35 GMT
#116
To highlight the concept once again,

On August 09 2011 17:24 dogabutila wrote:
You wouldnt want the broodlords up there anyways. Towers, plus they can only control one path from the ledges.

It might be a factor in the future, on other maps. but that example is not one.


So what your saying is there no situation in Starcraft where you maximize your advantage by positioning a broodlord on the highlighted high ground and using the mechanic in the OP?

Obviously not so plz refer to the previous post,

"Not considering the OP in the everyday use of your broodlords is just wasting advantage."

BlitzerSC
Profile Joined May 2011
Italy8800 Posts
August 09 2011 08:36 GMT
#117
On August 09 2011 10:15 figq wrote:
Interesting find, thanks. The reason, I suppose, could be that carrier's interceptors return to the carrier, and thus remain associated with it in some common class of objects, while broodlings once launched become fully autonomous units unrelated to the brood lord anymore, because they just die shortly. At least that's the only difference I can see.

/offtopic: zerg players really don't use broodlings well enough yet. It's surprisingly rare that someone would actually control them separately. As a result, very often you see broodlings not doing anything.

P.S. The proper comparison would be with Infested Terrans. Shooting them from high ground does not reveal the infestors, because the infested terrans are fully autonomous - unlike interceptors.

Another proof of this difference is:
- When you kill a carrier, all interceptors die immediately
- When you kill a brood lord, his launched broodlings don't die immediately
- When you kill an infestor, his launched infested terrans don't die immediately

So no, it's not a bug, clearly. You won't see interceptors living without a carrier, ever; they are associated. But you would see broodlings living without a brood lord; they are separate. Working as intended.


Infestor is not an air unit so it doesn't get revealed when it attack from high ground. The broodlord is an air unit and, like all air units, it should be visible when he attacks from the high ground.
Swwww
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Switzerland812 Posts
August 09 2011 08:39 GMT
#118
Although I doubt it will have little to any impact on the game a good find non the less!
"What is this TeamSupportGroup?" - mahnini.
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1438 Posts
August 09 2011 08:45 GMT
#119
On August 09 2011 17:35 Intricate1 wrote:
To highlight the concept once again,

Show nested quote +
On August 09 2011 17:24 dogabutila wrote:
You wouldnt want the broodlords up there anyways. Towers, plus they can only control one path from the ledges.

It might be a factor in the future, on other maps. but that example is not one.


So what your saying is there no situation in Starcraft where you maximize your advantage by positioning a broodlord on the highlighted high ground and using the mechanic in the OP?

Obviously not so plz refer to the previous post,

"Not considering the OP in the everyday use of your broodlords is just wasting advantage."



I'm sure you could make a magical situation where it would be better to place the broodlords there.
However, optimally, the broodlords would be in the middle. They can control both paths from there instead of just one. On the highlighted ground they are in range of ground units such as stalkers (who can blink up to there) and sentries. Thus, they are potentially attackable anyways.

Again, I'm sure you could craft some scenario wherein you would put the broodlords up there, but i'm not sure how realistic it would be. Compared to having them in the middle, there are just too many disadvantages.

Read carefully. This mechanic might be a factor in the future on other maps, but that example is not one. There situations where you would rather have the broodlords over those cliffs are few and far between, and probably would only result from you committing them poorly anyways.

Really, what reason would you rather have them over the cliff then the middle? Merely because they are unseen? You can't shoot at them when they are in the middle anyways....
Baller Fanclub || CheAse Fanclub || Scarlett Fanclub || LJD FIGHTING!
Corrosive
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3741 Posts
August 09 2011 08:47 GMT
#120
On August 09 2011 15:52 MandoRelease wrote:
I don't see how this could be game changing. Even if blizzard make it so that it shows the broodlord when the broodlord attack, you still would not be able to attack the broodlord unless you actually have vision. Doesn't change a thing.

Plus, about the broodlord attack. As far as I understand it, here is how it works. The broolord throws a broodling and make 20 damage, then the broodling attack and deal something like 4 damage (am i correct on that ?). That means, when the broodlord has 2 broodlings behind him, when he attacks, he launches 2 broodlings and deals an immediate 40 damage and brings 2 broodlings on the field, then has to wait for a broodling to respawn behind him before attacking again.
So it just may be that the 20 initial damage are tied to the broodling (which makes sense, since the broodlord can't attack unless he has at least one broodling ready behind him). And thus would explain why we don't see the broodlord on the high ground.

How does it differ from a weapon of, let's say, a vicking ? Well, there are differences in the fact that the wiking always deal the same amount of damage every y.xx seconds (help me on that one), while the broodlord's attack depends on the amount of broodling he has ready to be thrown.

But maybe blizzard will decide that they don't like that anymore, and will show the broodlord. It won't change a thing though, since you need actual vision the attack it, like for every other unit attacking from the high ground.

EDIT : After looking at the picture in the first post, I have to wonder why the carrier lost some HP. I mean you can't attack tanks or canons from the low ground if you don't have vision of them. That would be a bug if you could attack the carrier without vision. Nothing to do with the broodlord. The carrier thing is the bug here, as far as i'm concerned.

EDIT 2 : OK I misunderstood a few things originally. I thought the issue was that the broodlord was not revealed, i did not read that the carrier could be attacked. My mistake. Well, I don't think the issue here lies with the broodlord. The carrier should not be attacked.


Flying units and colossus can be attacked if they are attacking something from high ground.
Maruprime.
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