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On August 09 2011 04:37 SafeAsCheese wrote:
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
Even MC dies to the 1-1-1 :<
I think PvT is OK generally, it's just that like 25% of the time the Terran does a 1-1-1 and picks up a free win which skews the stats. In mid-lategame it looks pretty nicely balanced.
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On August 08 2011 23:39 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 23:16 eourcs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2011 22:58 Belha wrote:
The huge amount of trolls/noobs talking crap about protoss in this threads is absurd, annoying, almost insulting ( protoss less skilled by nature, less hard workers, less explored, and so, WTF). Numbers are REAL living proof of the results among races match ups. The shit talk about "protoss players are less skilled" is pure bullshit without a single argument to support it.
I'LL love if players that make such judgements write a list with arguments to support their words.
I have my arguments to support my opinion about the numbers (REAL PROOF) we are seeing for about a year:
1) Terran is the best race (wanna call it "complete"? Ok... "complete", and with Palpatine voice please). Why? Simple: Is the most rewarding for flawless multi task skill, best harassing punisher race, best eco macro mechanic, most efficient all-ins, most efficient micro mechanics, AND (very important too) the least punished race per mistake. Terrans gonna hate me, yes, but PLEASE CHECK THE ENTIRE YEAR NUMBERS.
2) Average pro P player is skilled as average pro T or Z player. The problem is that P is the race that punish most the player per mistake. Bad micro (or luck) with your scouting probes aganist the faster lings in PvZ? Time to play blind till you commit to a tech investment (EVEN HUK suffer this, and is one of the top P's, he get busted a lot by a trillion of lings placing his expo, just because he plays blind). Under average ff's? Dead (again, even pros suffer this, A LOT). Not above average unit spread in PvT? You re dead aganist ghosts. Not microed your templars when the ai tends to pack it together with your army? Emp won. I can keep throwing examples of how many times the P player have to outmicro the opponent, AND if he does not, hes dead.
Please guys. Arguments, please. Let's keep the debate nicely.
You can make these stupid "most punished per mistake" arguments with every race. 1) Not paying attention for 5 seconds? All your marines dies to fungal/banelings 2)Get caught unsieged? Everything dies 3)Get unlucky? All your marines die to burrowed banelings 4)Miss an emp? Your entire army is stormed to death 5)Not looking at your army for 5 seconds? All your infestors get feedbacked/emped 6)Not looking at your army for 5 seconds? Everything gets forcefielded and you lose 3/4 of your army 7)Not looking at your mutas for a fraction of a second? All of them die to thors/marines/stalkers/templar So, your mistakes list is "not looking", "unluck", "pay atention"...OMG, that is your conception of skill? Go post somewhere else please, or much better, think before post, elaborate before typing. Do not lower the level of the debate.
Look buddy, on your list is:
bad luck with scouting, something which Zerg has a problem with too
bad forcefields, something which anybody above diamond should not have a problem with if you are paying attention to your army, as they are very easy to do, therefore the only logical conclusion is that the reason one would have bad forcefields is if they stop paying attention to their army.
Bad spread and bad micro, something both other races have to deal with, if any race is punished most for micro mistakes it is Terran in the vs zerg match up.
So just that alone means maybe you should not be so rude to somebody trying to "keep the debate nicely" in your words.
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On August 09 2011 04:39 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 04:37 SafeAsCheese wrote:
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
In mid-lategame it looks pretty nicely balanced.
In midgame its indeed balanced, but lategame is P favoured imo. I almost never saw a terran winning when toss had more then 4 bases.
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Saying P/Z are bad races... BUT they win GSL because of a few really good players is silly. Using that logic that just means all the other players are not good, which is not Blizzard's fault.
You can't pick and choose statistics.
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On August 09 2011 04:56 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 04:39 Yaotzin wrote:On August 09 2011 04:37 SafeAsCheese wrote:
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
In mid-lategame it looks pretty nicely balanced. In midgame its indeed balanced, but lategame is P favoured imo. I almost never saw a terran winning when toss had more then 4 bases.
Thorzain, Puma.
Honestly think Terrans are just unused to games that last too long. By that point toss suddenly gets the ability to be aggressive and confront terran. Toss can suddenly be cost effective especially if terran engages in the wrong spots.
Another question to ask is how often do you see toss killing a terran before 10 min?
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On August 09 2011 05:17 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 04:56 Snowbear wrote:On August 09 2011 04:39 Yaotzin wrote:On August 09 2011 04:37 SafeAsCheese wrote:
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
In mid-lategame it looks pretty nicely balanced. In midgame its indeed balanced, but lategame is P favoured imo. I almost never saw a terran winning when toss had more then 4 bases. Thorzain, Puma. Honestly think Terrans are just unused to games that last too long. By that point toss suddenly gets the ability to be aggressive and confront terran. Toss can suddenly be cost effective especially if terran engages in the wrong spots. Another question to ask is how often do you see toss killing a terran before 10 min?
Thorzain loses lategame TVPs a lot more than he wins, just look at the blizz eu invite, IPL, Assembly,
I wouldn't say that Terrans are just unused to lategame, lategame is wher it gets really hard for the Terran. It would be unfair not to mention earlygame and midgame is hard for the Protoss.
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I always have to laugh reading these threads.
As for the many thousands of people playing sc2, we can safely assume that any skewed race distribution in rankings are NOT a consequence of differences in player skill, time invested, amount of players for a certain race, etc. etc. The population (the entire sc2 playerbase) is simply too big.
What DOES affect which races win most is the number of possible builds a certain race can effectively produce. A baseball team that always bunts when 1 man out is not going to be nearly as effective compared to a team that mixes bunt and hit-an-run tactics at random.
Zerg and Protoss have limited EFFECTIVE builds when compared to Terran. This is the one and only reason for their success. Whether or not this is imbalanced, I don't know. But this is the single reason while Terran does so well since start.
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On August 09 2011 05:17 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 04:56 Snowbear wrote:On August 09 2011 04:39 Yaotzin wrote:On August 09 2011 04:37 SafeAsCheese wrote:
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
In mid-lategame it looks pretty nicely balanced. In midgame its indeed balanced, but lategame is P favoured imo. I almost never saw a terran winning when toss had more then 4 bases. Thorzain, Puma. Honestly think Terrans are just unused to games that last too long. By that point toss suddenly gets the ability to be aggressive and confront terran. Toss can suddenly be cost effective especially if terran engages in the wrong spots. Another question to ask is how often do you see toss killing a terran before 10 min?
Well this happen with a 3gate/robo - and fast expo into 6gate... both are serious all ins though... and if they don't kill the expo (at least) the P will be screwed...
On top of this, there's a ton of different openings for T... if he goes for the semi-late cloaked expanshees, the 6gate will be in a world of hurt... and can't really see any hard counter for the 1/1/1 anywhere around still.
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there are a lot of good terrans at the moment and there are a lot of terran users. So statistically it should make sense.
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On August 09 2011 05:23 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 05:17 Sabu113 wrote:On August 09 2011 04:56 Snowbear wrote:On August 09 2011 04:39 Yaotzin wrote:On August 09 2011 04:37 SafeAsCheese wrote:
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
In mid-lategame it looks pretty nicely balanced. In midgame its indeed balanced, but lategame is P favoured imo. I almost never saw a terran winning when toss had more then 4 bases. Thorzain, Puma. Honestly think Terrans are just unused to games that last too long. By that point toss suddenly gets the ability to be aggressive and confront terran. Toss can suddenly be cost effective especially if terran engages in the wrong spots. Another question to ask is how often do you see toss killing a terran before 10 min? Thorzain loses lategame TVPs a lot more than he wins, just look at the blizz eu invite, IPL, Assembly, I wouldn't say that Terrans are just unused to lategame, lategame is wher it gets really hard for the Terran. It would be unfair not to mention earlygame and midgame is hard for the Protoss.
To be honest, this is because almost every single T player gets stuck on bio... Sure they mix in ghosts and vikings... But if you actually made a transition into mech or air T would be fine against end game toss... (I realize a transition from pure bio --> mech is hard and near suicide)
But being able to apply pressure and being costeffective for the first 10-15minutes is what you'll get from bio... Ofc t1 and t1½ can't be super good against a 200/200 protoss with temps, colo and archon
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On August 09 2011 05:27 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 05:23 kodas wrote:On August 09 2011 05:17 Sabu113 wrote:On August 09 2011 04:56 Snowbear wrote:On August 09 2011 04:39 Yaotzin wrote:On August 09 2011 04:37 SafeAsCheese wrote:
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
In mid-lategame it looks pretty nicely balanced. In midgame its indeed balanced, but lategame is P favoured imo. I almost never saw a terran winning when toss had more then 4 bases. Thorzain, Puma. Honestly think Terrans are just unused to games that last too long. By that point toss suddenly gets the ability to be aggressive and confront terran. Toss can suddenly be cost effective especially if terran engages in the wrong spots. Another question to ask is how often do you see toss killing a terran before 10 min? Thorzain loses lategame TVPs a lot more than he wins, just look at the blizz eu invite, IPL, Assembly, I wouldn't say that Terrans are just unused to lategame, lategame is wher it gets really hard for the Terran. It would be unfair not to mention earlygame and midgame is hard for the Protoss. To be honest, this is because almost every single T player gets stuck on bio... Sure they mix in ghosts and vikings... But if you actually made a transition into mech or air T would be fine against end game toss... (I realize a transition from pure bio --> mech is hard and near suicide) But being able to apply pressure and being costeffective for the first 10-15minutes is what you'll get from bio... Ofc t1 and t1½ can't be super good against a 200/200 protoss with temps, colo and archon
It's not only hard/near suicide to do a massive tech switch from bio to mech in the mid/late game, but mech unto itself isn't very viable against Protoss. At best you might get lucky if the Protoss player isn't familiar with how to deal with mech (hint: make lots of chargelot/archon, a-move to victory), otherwise Terran mech gets rolled by Protoss.
Mech TvP was the go-to strategy in Brood War thanks to spider mines, 70-damage siege tanks, and versatile mech AA via the goliath. Now we have no spider mines, 35-damage siege tanks (50 if Protoss is dumb and makes things like stalkers vs. mech), and very situational/expensive mech AA via the thor.
Some diehard Terrans force it to work now and again (e.g. ESC.Goody), but you're not going to commonly see mech TvP like the Brood War days. Maybe there's some potential in a soft transition to biomech in TvP lategame by incorporating a few mech-based support units with your bio composition, but we'll have to see. For now, the best solution seems to be harassing and doom dropping the Protoss with the superior mobility of bio/medivac, superb ghost control in the ghost/HT dance, and lots of vikings for colossi.
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Terran is not better b/c of more players, more players just create more strategy. Does not make the stats wrong in TvX cuz you need other races to play against as well.
I think right now I don't wanna ladder anymore. Protoss is just too predictable, if I FFE vs Zerg, I'll just be outmacro anyway. Open DTs or VRs got shut down with one sporecrawler. Against Terran is just prepare for the all-in in every single game.
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it really bothers me that people think stats mean anything. This is already sparking a balance discussion which is truely sad.
On August 08 2011 22:05 Fig wrote:
The main problem is exactly what Dustin Browder admitted to in his last interview. "Terran is the most complete race." He said they were having trouble finding anything to add to terran in the expansion. By admitting that terrans have more tools and more answers than the other two races right now, there is absolutely NO INCENTIVE to choose a race besides terran if you are planning on playing SC2 competitively for money. Even if he says something like they are looking into giving toss a harass unit in HotS, what toss wants to wait through almost a year of being disadvantaged in every tournament. If Blizzard doesn't want the GSL to be almost all terrans by the time the expansion comes out, some things need to change now.
... good example right here...
Most of the Korean terrans have 10 years of Bw experience. + A lot of these stats are from when Terran was winning everything and was heavly imbalanced.
I would really have to see the Matches of how P is losing 60% of the time to terran because a month ago it was the exact opposite.
EDIT: You included... yellow vs boxer...
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1-1-1 is MMM or Marines, banshees and tanks all-in?
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On August 09 2011 05:27 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 05:23 kodas wrote:On August 09 2011 05:17 Sabu113 wrote:On August 09 2011 04:56 Snowbear wrote:On August 09 2011 04:39 Yaotzin wrote:On August 09 2011 04:37 SafeAsCheese wrote:
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
In mid-lategame it looks pretty nicely balanced. In midgame its indeed balanced, but lategame is P favoured imo. I almost never saw a terran winning when toss had more then 4 bases. Thorzain, Puma. Honestly think Terrans are just unused to games that last too long. By that point toss suddenly gets the ability to be aggressive and confront terran. Toss can suddenly be cost effective especially if terran engages in the wrong spots. Another question to ask is how often do you see toss killing a terran before 10 min? Thorzain loses lategame TVPs a lot more than he wins, just look at the blizz eu invite, IPL, Assembly, I wouldn't say that Terrans are just unused to lategame, lategame is wher it gets really hard for the Terran. It would be unfair not to mention earlygame and midgame is hard for the Protoss. To be honest, this is because almost every single T player gets stuck on bio... Sure they mix in ghosts and vikings... But if you actually made a transition into mech or air T would be fine against end game toss... (I realize a transition from pure bio --> mech is hard and near suicide) But being able to apply pressure and being costeffective for the first 10-15minutes is what you'll get from bio... Ofc t1 and t1½ can't be super good against a 200/200 protoss with temps, colo and archon
The whole problem is that mech doesn't work against protoss. Terrans tried it but it's just not working because of too many hardcounters (watch goody only winning when his opponent screws up). We only have MMM + viking + ghosts and I hope blizzard looks into the terran lategame, because we have no viable units at that time.
We start with MMM and we end with MMM + viking + ghost, and nothing else is viable. It's tier 1,5 against tier 3, which is a disaster. Everyone seems to forget this problem. I understand that alot of terrans are going 1base allin.
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On August 09 2011 05:50 GoKu` wrote:it really bothers me that people think stats mean anything. This is already sparking a balance discussion which is truely sad. Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 22:05 Fig wrote:
The main problem is exactly what Dustin Browder admitted to in his last interview. "Terran is the most complete race." He said they were having trouble finding anything to add to terran in the expansion. By admitting that terrans have more tools and more answers than the other two races right now, there is absolutely NO INCENTIVE to choose a race besides terran if you are planning on playing SC2 competitively for money. Even if he says something like they are looking into giving toss a harass unit in HotS, what toss wants to wait through almost a year of being disadvantaged in every tournament. If Blizzard doesn't want the GSL to be almost all terrans by the time the expansion comes out, some things need to change now. ... good example right here... Most of the Korean terrans have 10 years of Bw experience. + A lot of these stats are from when Terran was winning everything and was heavly imbalanced. I would really have to see the Matches of how P is losing 60% of the time to terran because a month ago it was the exact opposite. EDIT: You included... yellow vs boxer...
Any chance you can link stats for June showing Protoss 60-40 Terran? Haven't seen this but would be interested to see the other stats too.
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On August 08 2011 22:16 twiitar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 22:05 Fig wrote:
there is absolutely NO INCENTIVE to choose a race besides terran if you are planning on playing SC2 competitively for money. That's why the people that made the most cash with SC2 progaming so far are a Protoss and a Zerg, right? These statistics are pretty silly and only fuel the Protoss complaints about "hurr game is unbalanced durr terran too strong give us back amulet or else!11!1" which were p awful to begin with. It's not like Protoss suck, it's just that Terrans have invested more time into finding the small tidbits that give you an advantage while Protoss prefer a-moving or getting bloody noses on 1-1-1 without sitting down and analyzing why they fail against it with mass stalkers and horrible positioning.
This argument and others who sound like this are utterly childish. So are you suggesting that people who play Zerg and Protoss dont sit down after a loss and analyse a replay, discuss it with their Terran, Zerg and Protoss friends and create custom games to practice or jump on the ladder to try to fix it? Are you suggesting only Terran players have wit and are thoughtful to analyze their own games and admit mistakes?
You might want to rethink the balance argument. Im kind of tired of hearing people make excuses for what has been a blatant balance issue for 12 months.
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These numbers definitely reflect what I've been seeing. Protoss has been doing the worst for some time. It is reminiscent of Broodwar, where Protoss champions are far and few between, while Terran and Zerg dominate.
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I'm not sure if including code A in the results is a good idea since it's pretty much just a qualifier for another tournament.
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On August 09 2011 05:55 StarscreamG1 wrote:
1-1-1 is MMM or Marines, banshees and tanks all-in?
1-1-1 refers to 1 barracks 1 factory 1 starport. This is almost always but not exclusively (Puma opened with this but did not allin in NASL. This is possibly because MC kept opening phoenixs though.) used to execute an allin. Usually banshees/tanks/marines, sometimes a raven instead of/in addition to the banshees.
It's mystifying why it isn't done more, considering it works ~90% of the time at pro level, despite being around since beta.
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EPT
