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On August 08 2011 22:26 Fig wrote:
The fact that you wrote "Terrans have invested more time" and "Protoss prefer a-moving" shows that you have no idea about the highest level of competition in SC2.
Because it's obviously the highest level of competition that's complaining about the so-called unstoppability of 1-1-1. Yeah, right, that automatically implies that I've no idea about it.
BronzeKnee, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 is your friend.
Considering Reapers, nobody knows or can tell if they were imbalanced or not - Zerg simply didn't know of a way to counter them effectively back then and since it got patched there's no way to tell if they would've turned out to be imbalanced or easily stoppable once you've figured out how to.
The temporary supremacy of certain BOs/viability of strategies is something that's been known since SCBW, back then it was usually "fixed" not by crying and complaining but rather by discovering how to beat it with a better BO/Strategy.
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On August 09 2011 02:30 QTIP. wrote:
The only concern I have is that the current PvZ metagame is somewhat predictable. If a Protoss player expands with the zerg and opts for a macro game, they will often rely on Stargate / DT / Heavy Blink Play / Heavy WG to pressure or deny the third. Blink Play / Heavy WG gets annihilated by infestor/ling (see Destiny), and Stargate / DT can both be nullified by spores.
You can still do great damage with these strategies, I simply dislike how predictable it is. Every competent Zerg knows these shenanigans are coming from a Protoss player.
When you think about it ZvT is also predictable, or at least boils down to the same old unit compositions. The difference is terran can use the factory after a failed helion harass, or use the starport for medivacs/vikings. Not so with protoss and here I agree with you. A failed VR push on the other hand is way too costly for protoss, since no core army composition consists of stargate units. Toss is just way too predictable atm. A solid zerg can see what you are doing from a mile away and prepare accordingly. The zerg has high chances of winning, unless he is way too greedy. Toss right now really feels limited when it comes to openings, especially vs zerg. PvT is much better right now, but in PvZ it's really hard to put any pressure on the zerg, without damaging your economy.
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Don't think these figures are really strong enough to form an opinion on yet but it's not looking too promising for protoss right now. I feel like a lot of the toss players who are strong enough to do well are underperforming recently but I guess we'll see how it goes in the GSL this season.
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Pretty sure terran has a nerf bat coming its way. For once, protoss is not the center of attraction for nerfs  .
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On August 09 2011 03:02 Inex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 02:30 QTIP. wrote:
The only concern I have is that the current PvZ metagame is somewhat predictable. If a Protoss player expands with the zerg and opts for a macro game, they will often rely on Stargate / DT / Heavy Blink Play / Heavy WG to pressure or deny the third. Blink Play / Heavy WG gets annihilated by infestor/ling (see Destiny), and Stargate / DT can both be nullified by spores.
You can still do great damage with these strategies, I simply dislike how predictable it is. Every competent Zerg knows these shenanigans are coming from a Protoss player. When you think about it ZvT is also predictable, or at least boils down to the same old unit compositions. The difference is terran can use the factory after a failed helion harass, or use the starport for medivacs/vikings. Not so with protoss and here I agree with you. A failed VR push on the other hand is way too costly for protoss, since no core army composition consists of stargate units. Toss is just way too predictable atm. A solid zerg can see what you are doing from a mile away and prepare accordingly. The zerg has high chances of winning, unless he is way too greedy. Toss right now really feels limited when it comes to openings, especially vs zerg. PvT is much better right now, but in PvZ it's really hard to put any pressure on the zerg, without damaging your economy.
Agreed. If the Terran does not opt for the 1-1-1 (like they do in so many do/die matches), I believe that PvT allows for very diverse and entertaining game play. PvZ is not nearly as dynamic.
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On August 09 2011 03:46 NineteenSC2 wrote:Pretty sure terran has a nerf bat coming its way. For once, protoss is not the center of attraction for nerfs .
If you had ever read patch notes, you'd notice that terran has been (rigthfully) nerfed 3x as hard as protoss. I'd love to sacrifice 3 seconds buildtime on marines for collosi's beamdamage to be reduced to 2x11 ^^) Protoss stats are screwed by 1/1/1 allin, no doubt, yet I can't think of an idea how to nerf it without breaking TvZ - the only unit you can really touch in that comp is the banshee.
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Why would anyone get nerfed? There's nothing in the game that seems straight up wrong. What exactly WOULD you nerf? I'm not sure how you intend to accomplish the "Terran win rate reduced by 20%" nerf. It would just be nerfing for the sake of nerfing.
Better players are playing better, worse players are playing worse. Protoss players need to step it up, simple as that.
MC's spent a ton of time being a traveling superstar and now can't keep up with the competition in GSL, HuK is kinda the same (but still improving imo).
I would never expect Tester or SangHo to win anything, no matter what race they play. It's obvious they're just not champion material in SC2.
HongUn is still gimmicky as shit and I still don't think he even belongs in Code S (or at least not to make it further than group stage), even though he keeps ranking unrealistically high. His play is so unrefined and often times sloppy.
InCa is an artifact of the past at this point, and deservedly out of Code A. His play was foreigner level sloppy today.
Who do you really expect to win championships in the first place?
If you go through all the other races' winners, you'll see that they are all genuinely top players and nobody is there only because of his race. Polt is probably the only guy who is punching above his real weight (and even he won his championship in a TvT).
Can we please stop bringing up statistics as an imbalance argument? Protoss looks even worse in Brood War, and has looked like that for years. -_-
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On August 09 2011 03:46 NineteenSC2 wrote:Pretty sure terran has a nerf bat coming its way. For once, protoss is not the center of attraction for nerfs .
I'm pretty sure there is nothing that can be nerfed about the terran race. Tanks are already weak (they are nerfed hard before), and a marine nerf would destroy tvz. The only sollution is a banshee nerf, but will blizzard do that?
I hope blizzard takes a look into the terran lategame. As a macroterran who doesn't 1base allin it's pretty hard. Lategame tvp with collo + HT and lategame tvz with broodlord + infestor is so hard and feels almost impossible (for me). I would like to see a strong lategame unit for Z (and please don't say thors and bc's are good).
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I feel like Protoss really lacks a strong ground-only attack unit. Roaches and Marauders are extremely good and cost-effective, because they can only do one thing. However, they do it so well that their lack of flexibility is more than made up for in sheer strength.
The Protoss equivalent to these two units is the almighty Sentry. It's what they have in T1 that can win ground battles. Relying on a spell (even a totally awesome one) to win battles instead of simply beefy, powerful units is fundamentally more flimsy. It really multiplies the mistakes that the player makes. If you mess up an engagement with Roaches or Marauders serving as your army's backbone, you're still going to tank and do some damage, that's the nature of those units. If you mess up with Sentries, you don't do shit and get face rolled. Of course, the other side of that coin is that with perfect force fields, you take almost no damage. I don't feel that point changes my argument that messing up leads to an instant loss though, it just demonstrates how much Protoss has to rely on spells.
While we're talking about units with ground-only attacks, where's the Protoss Banshee or Broodlord? Protoss units are jack of all trades, but masters of none, and it's becoming apparent that hyper specialized units are extremely effective in SC2. Without a unit that is designed to take on ground units specifically, Stargate tech is always going to be a niche tech, and not something that players can rely on.
Now, I don't think this is imbalanced, because as mentioned Sentries are fucking awesome, and Void Rays and Phoenix are pretty damn good at their specific roles. But it's pretty hard to get though round after round of insanely tough opponents in a tournament when even a small mistake can cost you the game. I feel like on in a Bo1 Protoss is pretty balanced, but as we start talking about Bo3s or tournaments as a whole, the limitations of relying on the Sentry so much become apparent, and it's just really hard to advance through an entire tournament. Add in the facts that Protoss is fairly limited on tech, excluding gimmicks, and that PvP is weird and isn't always won by the better player, and you end up with some very skewed tournament results.
Oh, and please keep in mind I'm talking about PvX, I realize what I'm saying about Roaches and Marauders don't apply to other matchups.
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On August 09 2011 03:58 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:46 NineteenSC2 wrote:Pretty sure terran has a nerf bat coming its way. For once, protoss is not the center of attraction for nerfs . I'm pretty sure there is nothing that can be nerfed about the terran race. Tanks are already weak (they are nerfed hard before), and a marine nerf would destroy tvz. The only sollution is a banshee nerf, but will blizzard do that?
Well for the record, a 3/3/3 stalker still loses to a banshee. That's how much stalkers suck against banshees, and why the current iteration of 1/1/1 is so strong. Can't make more than 4-5 or you will just get contained because squishy stalkers die, but banshees are pretty ridiculously good.
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On August 09 2011 03:57 Talin wrote:
Why would anyone get nerfed? There's nothing in the game that seems straight up wrong. What exactly WOULD you nerf? I'm not sure how you intend to accomplish the "Terran win rate reduced by 20%" nerf. It would just be nerfing for the sake of nerfing.
Better players are playing better, worse players are playing worse. Protoss players need to step it up, simple as that.
MC's spent a ton of time being a traveling superstar and now can't keep up with the competition in GSL, HuK is kinda the same (but still improving imo).
I would never expect Tester or SangHo to win anything, no matter what race they play. It's obvious they're just not champion material in SC2.
HongUn is still gimmicky as shit and I still don't think he even belongs in Code S (or at least not to make it further than group stage), even though he keeps ranking unrealistically high. His play is so unrefined and often times sloppy.
InCa is an artifact of the past at this point, and deservedly out of Code A. His play was foreigner level sloppy today.
Who do you really expect to win championships in the first place?
If you go through all the other races' winners, you'll see that they are all genuinely top players and nobody is there only because of his race. Polt is probably the only guy who is punching above his real weight (and even he won his championship in a TvT).
Can we please stop bringing up statistics as an imbalance argument? Protoss looks even worse in Brood War, and has looked like that for years. -_-
This must be the dumbest post I've ever read on this forum.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 09 2011 03:57 Talin wrote:
Why would anyone get nerfed? There's nothing in the game that seems straight up wrong. What exactly WOULD you nerf? I'm not sure how you intend to accomplish the "Terran win rate reduced by 20%" nerf. It would just be nerfing for the sake of nerfing.
Better players are playing better, worse players are playing worse. Protoss players need to step it up, simple as that.
MC's spent a ton of time being a traveling superstar and now can't keep up with the competition in GSL, HuK is kinda the same (but still improving imo).
I would never expect Tester or SangHo to win anything, no matter what race they play. It's obvious they're just not champion material in SC2.
HongUn is still gimmicky as shit and I still don't think he even belongs in Code S (or at least not to make it further than group stage), even though he keeps ranking unrealistically high. His play is so unrefined and often times sloppy.
InCa is an artifact of the past at this point, and deservedly out of Code A. His play was foreigner level sloppy today.
Who do you really expect to win championships in the first place?
If you go through all the other races' winners, you'll see that they are all genuinely top players and nobody is there only because of his race. Polt is probably the only guy who is punching above his real weight (and even he won his championship in a TvT).
Can we please stop bringing up statistics as an imbalance argument? Protoss looks even worse in Brood War, and has looked like that for years. -_-
A harsh and unrealistic evaluation of Protoss players.
I'm not sure how MC "can't keep up with the competition" anymore. Top 8 GSL is bad now? Going out to Hongun (a truly wild + unpredictable player) in a PvP now makes him any less of a favorite? (i.e. You will liquibet Hongun next time they play?)
How is MVP anymore of a "genuinely top player" than MC? I'm very confused here.
There seems to be an overwhelming sentiment among some posters here that the reasons for Protoss struggles can be summed up as
1) Protoss players are unskilled
2) Need to "step up"
3) Haven't been practicing enough
Are these really the arguments you want to make to justify the results?
It's one thing to make an effort an formulate a counter argument, while it is another to make no effort and simply say "well, you're just not trying hard enough." Especially when you apply this to Korean players.
I am not nailing down imbalance as the sole cause, nor if it is a cause at all, but given the practice culture in Korea - Protoss players in Korea do not suffer from a "lack of effort."
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I don't think a Terran nerf due to 1-1-1 is necessary until it is proven that a phoenix opening by Protoss is unviable. When every option is tried, and stargate openings lose to 1-1-1 (or is terrible against everything else), then we may need to buff Protoss.
What MC has worked on with the phoenix play looks very very promising, and I believe that if MC tech switched faster to Colossi and didn't get charge sniped, he could have easily beaten Puma.
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On August 09 2011 04:07 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:58 Snowbear wrote:On August 09 2011 03:46 NineteenSC2 wrote:Pretty sure terran has a nerf bat coming its way. For once, protoss is not the center of attraction for nerfs . I'm pretty sure there is nothing that can be nerfed about the terran race. Tanks are already weak (they are nerfed hard before), and a marine nerf would destroy tvz. The only sollution is a banshee nerf, but will blizzard do that? Well for the record, a 3/3/3 stalker still loses to a banshee. That's how much stalkers suck against banshees, and why the current iteration of 1/1/1 is so strong. Can't make more than 4-5 or you will just get contained because squishy stalkers die, but banshees are pretty ridiculously good.
Well yeah, the only nerf possible is a banshee nerf imo. But tank rine allins are strong too, no?
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On August 09 2011 03:55 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:46 NineteenSC2 wrote:Pretty sure terran has a nerf bat coming its way. For once, protoss is not the center of attraction for nerfs . If you had ever read patch notes, you'd notice that terran has been (rigthfully) nerfed 3x as hard as protoss. I'd love to sacrifice 3 seconds buildtime on marines for collosi's beamdamage to be reduced to 2x11 ^^) Protoss stats are screwed by 1/1/1 allin, no doubt, yet I can't think of an idea how to nerf it without breaking TvZ - the only unit you can really touch in that comp is the banshee.
As a temporary measure nerf the fuck out of the banshee. That thing is ridiculous anyway. Cloaks, flies, and 2 shots workers? It really needs all that? Oh and it comes from a building every Terran wants anyway - compare to DT shrine requiring its very own incredibly slow building.
Long term they have to fix mass marine because it's so incredibly overpowering that aoe is *required*. Protoss can only barely get aoe out before the 1-1-1 hits, but banshees in particular mess up collos since you can't afford any stalkers when doing that.
I guess a bandaid measure would be cheaper/quicker collo that fries the fuck out of mass marine but needs upgrades to become what it is now (which isn't remotely OP, they aren't even used much anymore.)
Remember: the 1-1-1 allin is actually just a mass marine allin with units to support them. They are the heart of the problem.
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On August 09 2011 04:26 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 04:07 Amui wrote:On August 09 2011 03:58 Snowbear wrote:On August 09 2011 03:46 NineteenSC2 wrote:Pretty sure terran has a nerf bat coming its way. For once, protoss is not the center of attraction for nerfs . I'm pretty sure there is nothing that can be nerfed about the terran race. Tanks are already weak (they are nerfed hard before), and a marine nerf would destroy tvz. The only sollution is a banshee nerf, but will blizzard do that? Well for the record, a 3/3/3 stalker still loses to a banshee. That's how much stalkers suck against banshees, and why the current iteration of 1/1/1 is so strong. Can't make more than 4-5 or you will just get contained because squishy stalkers die, but banshees are pretty ridiculously good. Well yeah, the only nerf possible is a banshee nerf imo. But tank rine allins are strong too, no?
Yes, they can be quite strong, but can be defeated quite easily with a Zealot / Sentry / Immortal composition.
Cloaked banshee harass forces Protoss to take Robo build time away from Immortals, and can end the game if the Protoss does not have a perfect unit composition on engagement. Even if Tanks and Marines are gone -- can you warp in enough stalkers to deal with the Banshees? Did the Raven / Scan snipe your observer so you lose all detection?
When Banshees are added to the mix there are many more pitfalls for the Protoss player.
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On August 09 2011 04:18 QTIP. wrote:
A harsh and unrealistic evaluation of Protoss players.
I'm not sure how MC "can't keep up with the competition" anymore. Top 8 GSL is bad now? Going out to Hongun (a truly wild + unpredictable player) in a PvP now makes him any less of a favorite? (i.e. You will liquibet Hongun next time they play?)
How is MVP anymore of a "genuinely top player" than MC? I'm very confused here.
MC said himself he hasn't been keeping up, he hasn't had the best practice and that he was behind the top players right now due to traveling to all the foreign events and having little time to settle down and practice for GSL. So why don't you go and argue your points with him instead. -_-
What did MVP win in Korea recently? When he was winning, he was pretty much the best player in the world (over Nestea even).
Are these really the arguments you want to make to justify the results?
Yep. They really are. I really don't see a problem with them either.
I don't think many people would disagree if they actually watched the games rather than statistics.
Because if you watch the games and STILL expect Hongun, Tester and SangHo to win championships over NesTea, Losira, MVP, Bomber (who hasn't even won anything yet), and a number of other T/Z players - then I really don't know what to tell you to change your mind.
But I guess working with numbers is easier when you're arguing on the forums. -_-
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On August 09 2011 04:18 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:57 Talin wrote:
Why would anyone get nerfed? There's nothing in the game that seems straight up wrong. What exactly WOULD you nerf? I'm not sure how you intend to accomplish the "Terran win rate reduced by 20%" nerf. It would just be nerfing for the sake of nerfing.
Better players are playing better, worse players are playing worse. Protoss players need to step it up, simple as that.
MC's spent a ton of time being a traveling superstar and now can't keep up with the competition in GSL, HuK is kinda the same (but still improving imo).
I would never expect Tester or SangHo to win anything, no matter what race they play. It's obvious they're just not champion material in SC2.
HongUn is still gimmicky as shit and I still don't think he even belongs in Code S (or at least not to make it further than group stage), even though he keeps ranking unrealistically high. His play is so unrefined and often times sloppy.
InCa is an artifact of the past at this point, and deservedly out of Code A. His play was foreigner level sloppy today.
Who do you really expect to win championships in the first place?
If you go through all the other races' winners, you'll see that they are all genuinely top players and nobody is there only because of his race. Polt is probably the only guy who is punching above his real weight (and even he won his championship in a TvT).
Can we please stop bringing up statistics as an imbalance argument? Protoss looks even worse in Brood War, and has looked like that for years. -_- 1) Protoss players are unskilled
2) Need to "step up"
3) Haven't been practicing enoughAre these really the arguments you want to make to justify the results? It's one thing to make an effort an formulate a counter argument, while it is another to make no effort and simply say "well, you're just not trying hard enough." Especially when you apply this to Korean players. I am not nailing down imbalance as the sole cause, nor if it is a cause at all, but given the practice culture in Korea - Protoss players in Korea do not suffer from a "lack of effort."
To e honest, when NesTea was the ONLY zerg winning tourneys between January and June, people used him as a legit point that other zergs were not practicing enough, and that if they did they would be able to win as much as NesTea.
NesTea and Losira are the only two zergs doing CONSISTENTLY well in Code S, just like MC was the only protoss doing consistently well.
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EPT
