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Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Add some synergy for units like the corrupter. Like make it's corrupt ability be AOE or something so having a few isn't completely useless. If I get a raven and research seeker missile incase someone goes muta, does the fact them not going muta make the raven useless? Absolutely not, whereas a safe transition into corrupter just doesn't happen. In fact zerg air doesn't really mix well with zerg mid-late game ground at all. Raven, medivac, phoenix, mothership all do so why can't zerg have a unit that helps its ground army?
I have more problems with the thor as just a 'supposed to look bad ass unit' and it really should have a complete change to its look. I would prefer goliath returning and giving the viking small tweaks like splash damage and since the Colossus wouldn't be around make some tweaks to viking armor and attack type to compensate for the changes goliath would make for tvt.
There is so much Blizzard should and can change it would be a real shame if they didn't.
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On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Add some synergy for units like the corrupter. Like make it's corrupt ability be AOE or something so having a few isn't completely useless. If I get a raven and research seeker missile incase someone goes muta, does the fact them going muta make the raven useless? Absolutely not, whereas a safe transition into corrupter just doesn't happen. In fact zerg air doesn't really mix well with zerg mid-late game ground at all. Raven, medivac, phoenix, mothership all do so why can't zerg have a unit that helps its ground army?
I have more problems with the thor as just a 'supposed to look bad ass unit' and it really should have a complete change to its look. I would prefer goliath returning and giving the viking small tweaks like splash damage and since the Colossus wouldn't be around make some tweaks to viking armor and attack type to compensate for the changes goliath would make for tvt.
There is so much Blizzard should and can change it would be a real shame if they didn't.
jesus christ dude everything you are spewing as fact is wrong and in my opinion your opinions are dumb.
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Hmmm, the only thing I dislike about this is that while ladder (due to the matchmaking system) has a 50/50 win rate for most matchups, in tournaments it is shown through TLPD statistics that Zerg and Terran are dominating Protoss... =\
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On August 24 2011 11:47 Sluggy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Add some synergy for units like the corrupter. Like make it's corrupt ability be AOE or something so having a few isn't completely useless. If I get a raven and research seeker missile incase someone goes muta, does the fact them going muta make the raven useless? Absolutely not, whereas a safe transition into corrupter just doesn't happen. In fact zerg air doesn't really mix well with zerg mid-late game ground at all. Raven, medivac, phoenix, mothership all do so why can't zerg have a unit that helps its ground army?
I have more problems with the thor as just a 'supposed to look bad ass unit' and it really should have a complete change to its look. I would prefer goliath returning and giving the viking small tweaks like splash damage and since the Colossus wouldn't be around make some tweaks to viking armor and attack type to compensate for the changes goliath would make for tvt.
There is so much Blizzard should and can change it would be a real shame if they didn't. jesus christ dude everything you are spewing as fact is wrong and in my opinion your opinions are dumb.
Real intellectual response there. I guess I'm just imagining the general consensus that broodwar was far more balanced. I guess I havn't heard countless pros, commentators mention that exact thing along the lines of "SC2 has only been out for a year." so on and so forth. Damn these lieing eyes(and ears.)
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The general consensus is that either your favorite race is underpowered (idra) or that strategies are still changing too rapidly to determine what's balanced (day9).
BW had its own design problems - some units just weren't used in some match ups, and some aren't used period (scout, devourer). Like SC2, maps can be biased against/towards races. UI problems also influenced balance a lot to the point where player skill often counted more than any racial imbalance. But nonetheless it was (and probably still is) the most competitive RTS game.
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5 Changes PLEASE (no particular order)
1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe.
2. Give Roaches Lurker upgrade on Lair tech. This makes lots of sense, they look the same and it saves worrying about having to wait for a hydra den. Also roaches are a very bland boring unit if you think about it (except burrow movement).
3. REMOVE Marauders. They are a walking stimmed tank (not really but kind of). Having no marauders would make it so people would go mech. Once again, a very bland boring unit, ground to ground, good against armor, and stim (already thought of ability).
4. MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE, make it so you cant forcefield on creep. This would lessen the IMBAness of the death ball in PvZ
5. This will most likely never happen and Its just cause i love BW mech, Change tanks to 2 supply and hellions to 1. Nerf em any way you want, just make my mech army feel more ARMY like.
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I'm very curious about this Protoss harass unit Dustin Browder mentioned. Other than that, Blizzard needs to remove the Mothership (at the most keep it in the Single Player) and replace it with the Arbiter as well as buffing the Carrier (maybe not make it take such a long time to build). I'm also glad they are thinking of creating a siege unit for Zerg.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe.
Make hydralisk 50m/50gas or food cap decrease to 1. Problem solved.
2. Give Roaches Lurker upgrade on Lair tech. This makes lots of sense, they look the same and it saves worrying about having to wait for a hydra den. Also roaches are a very bland boring unit if you think about it (except burrow movement).
Stop think about lurkers, wtf. They can create fully new and cool unit
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On August 24 2011 12:15 nimbus99 wrote:
5 Changes PLEASE (no particular order)
1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe.
2. Give Roaches Lurker upgrade on Lair tech. This makes lots of sense, they look the same and it saves worrying about having to wait for a hydra den. Also roaches are a very bland boring unit if you think about it (except burrow movement).
3. REMOVE Marauders. They are a walking stimmed tank (not really but kind of). Having no marauders would make it so people would go mech. Once again, a very bland boring unit, ground to ground, good against armor, and stim (already thought of ability).
4. MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE, make it so you cant forcefield on creep. This would lessen the IMBAness of the death ball in PvZ
5. This will most likely never happen and Its just cause i love BW mech, Change tanks to 2 supply and hellions to 1. Nerf em any way you want, just make my mech army feel more ARMY like.
Ok, honestly, you should go to BW.
1. Reworking hydras is fine. Give up on wishing for a speed upgrade. If anything is done, hydras will either have higher damage+higher speed for higher cost.
2. Roaches into lurkers? It wouldn't be called a lurker. Plus Blizzard said many times that roach + baneling = reason why no lurkers in SC2. You think about your race but are you thinking about other races? Requirement to counter banelings with marines is GSL skill level.
3. I hear SC:BW has no Marauders.
4. Another change favoring your race. If zerg spreads creep 24/7 and doesn't have to worry about FF, why not Terran and Protoss?
5. Tanks have been nerfed twice already because of how OP they were. Improved DPS sieged and unsieged, improved focus firing en mass, do you really think Blizzard would consider touching tanks? Hellions are meant to replace Firebats and Vultures, if a Vulture was 2 supply, why should a Hellion be 1 supply? You clearly didn't play during the era of the Roach back in beta.
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On August 24 2011 12:15 nimbus99 wrote:
5 Changes PLEASE (no particular order)
1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe.
2. Give Roaches Lurker upgrade on Lair tech. This makes lots of sense, they look the same and it saves worrying about having to wait for a hydra den. Also roaches are a very bland boring unit if you think about it (except burrow movement).
3. REMOVE Marauders. They are a walking stimmed tank (not really but kind of). Having no marauders would make it so people would go mech. Once again, a very bland boring unit, ground to ground, good against armor, and stim (already thought of ability).
4. MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE, make it so you cant forcefield on creep. This would lessen the IMBAness of the death ball in PvZ
5. This will most likely never happen and Its just cause i love BW mech, Change tanks to 2 supply and hellions to 1. Nerf em any way you want, just make my mech army feel more ARMY like.
What Protoss death ball has sentry's in them in late game?
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A couple of changes I would like:
1. Make infested terrans cost 50 energy. Autoturrets, which are basically the equivalent of infested terrans, cost 50 energy, and come from ravens, which are not easily massed like the infestor. In some ways, infested terrans are even better than autoturrets; autoturret's are like buildings, talking up 4 cubes of space, so its really hard to find space for them sometimes, while infested terrans can just be spawned all over the place because they aren't buildings and are like marines. Not to mention that ravens cant spawn autoturrets when burrowed or cloaked, like infestors do. Infestors fill too many roles at once (they can somewhat counter tanks with infested terran bombs or with neural parisite, counter mariens with fungal, and can counter basically every unit in the terran arsenal except for ghosts). I'm okay with infestors being able to kill marines extremely quickly with fungal growth. However, I don't think its fair to have 1 unit counter almost every unit in the terran arsenal, and making infested terrans cost 50 energy would help reduce its effectiveness.
2. Bring back khydarian amulet, but make high templars take longer to warp in, maybe 7 seconds instead of 5 so that you can't warp in storms as easily. I think this would encourage players to go the HT route instead of the collosi route, and personally I find that HT vs ghost micro is a lot more intresting than viking vs collosi a moving.
3. Slightly nerf collosi damage, maybe by like 1. This would help nudge players towards HT's instead of boring collosi.
4. Increase blink cooldown by 4, so its cooldown is 14 seconds instead of 10. I think blink stalkers are a bit too mobile and achieve to much with blink, so increasing the cooldown would help to reduce their effectiveness.
5. Take away infernal pre-ignitor for hellions. Hellions have ruined TvT with mech, and their ability to roast away so many worker so fast is just ridiculous. Removing blue flame would make hellion openings like reactor hellion expand still viable, but would make it so that they don't kill workers and stuff as fast. And this is coming from a Terran.
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Would be interesting and make terran less "ultra-adaptable" if you couldn't switch add-ons.
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i still dont understand why toss needs a "harass" unit. am i not the only one who thinks that DT's phoenix and instant units anywhere (a la pylon or warp prism) is not enough?
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On August 24 2011 12:48 GypsyBeast wrote:
i still dont understand why toss needs a "harass" unit. am i not the only one who thinks that DT's phoenix and instant units anywhere (a la pylon or warp prism) is not enough?
I still wonder why packs of like 2-3 blink stalkers don't hop into mineral lines in my TvPs..
Anyway, DB's response looks good, but as a terran player I want some new stuff too D: I'm really hoping we don't get like 1 removed unit and 2 added or something lame. Sure, it's not our expansion, but i wouldn't mind being less 'complete' if it means getting some cooler more specialized units or something.
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Why don't they ever ask about the Reaver or Colossus? I think the community as a whole hates the Colossus. It's too important, too micro unintensive, and too momentum based. The Reaver was so much more interesting, there was tons of micro with shuttles and they didn't just lump up into a ball with everything else and kill everything. I'd love to see the Colossus go and Reaver come back.
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On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
I think the three important ones to add are: shield battery(to fix the rush based nature of PvP), goliaths(to allow for Mech TvP and maybe TvZ) and overlords with detection(3 reasons - firstly, it would provide a great dynamic in ZvP(Bisu Build-esque play), secondly it would help limit infestor harass in ZvZ, thirdly it would reduce the ability to combat banshees being entirely based on scouting luck, and other changes would make ti from making banshees entirely useless, although I wouldn't mind them being nerfed out of the game).
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I get where he is coming from in not wanting to clutter the game with more units especially the versitle Terran army, but with a new ladder coming out for the hots expansion I feel like Terrans are going to be paying $60 just to keep multiplayer.
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Blue Flame needs to go or workers need to not be light anymore.
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I'm just not sure why he says it feels really bad to "ruin units" by nerfing them, when that's exactly what they did to Protoss?
I mean, really?
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Alright, I'll play! Since I play zerg these days I'll just do it mostly from their standpoint:
1) Most important IMO, hydras needs a T3 evolution. I think the siege unit Blizzard has in mind could be a hydra evolution, that would be good for the game. As it stands hydras are such a huge gas investment, that turns into crap as soon as the opponent gets splash damage (obviously talking about mostly ZvP). It could also dynamise ZvZ, making hydras a more valid tech choice. Don't know if they'll ever be used in ZvT though.
2) Make overseers T1 and 50 gas, and make them work differently. Instead of having higher speed they should have some kind of ability that would help scouting, without making it too easy to see everything. For instance they could have a 50 energy ability that allows them to charge for a short period of time. Scouting should require skills, I'm sure they can figure out something original that would work.
3) Change the corruptor, not very original I know but they really lack something. I think instead of increasing damage, it would actually make much more sense if it decreased the DPS of the corrupted unit (and bring back energy cost instead of a reload time). And it would actually possibly help more against collossi : you would make just enough corruptors to reduce the DPS of all the collossi, focus on killing the gateway army, and only then try to focus down those giant bastards. Wouldn't it be much better, exciting, balanced and micro intensive?
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EPT
