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shockaslim
United States1104 Posts
On August 24 2011 12:28 Existor wrote: Make hydralisk 50m/50gas or food cap decrease to 1. Problem solved. And this is why people like you shouldn't be allowed to balance games. This would make ZvP incredibly imbalanced. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote: Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg. They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent. Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes: Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures: Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:02 Slusher wrote: I get where he is coming from in not wanting to clutter the game with more units especially the versitle Terran army, but with a new ladder coming out for the hots expansion I feel like Terrans are going to be paying $60 just to keep multiplayer. It won't be 60$ most likely, more on the 30-40$ range as an expansion is usually set. Terran will have their changes,.they might not get new units but will get new abilities and/or mechanics. And you also pay for single player even if you don't like it. Edit: Not sure why I post and read this thread though... lot of ridiculous suggestions or BW/SC2 rants... | ||
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Virid
United States130 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote: + Show Spoiler + Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes: Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures: Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley I don't understand how the Colossi or Stalker are in any way a near-exact human replica | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:28 Virid wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley I don't understand how the Colossi or Stalker are in any way a near-exact human replica Stalker - I meant WC3 / zerg aesthetics, not uncanny valley. I was referring to the uncanny valley as in unrealistic. Something as huge as a Thor or Colossus should have some rigidity to it, move slightly awkwardly, and feel mechanical. The Thor would never be built because it's just a silly idea. The colossus, maybe, but it looks too skinny for a protoss unit and still moves too fast. This is sci-fi, not fantasy, we still have to obey the laws of physics. | ||
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Fleebenworth
463 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote: Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes: Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures: Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. A lot of this stuff doesn't even make sense... Void rays successful? Colossus art bad? uncanny valley??? Hellions not fast enough? The lack of explanations for anything on your list really makes the whole affair rather pointless. | ||
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Virid
United States130 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:31 0neder wrote: Stalker - I meant WC3 / zerg aesthetics, not uncanny valley. I was referring to the uncanny valley as in unrealistic. Something as huge as a Thor or Colossus should have some rigidity to it, move slightly awkwardly, and feel mechanical. The Thor would never be built because it's just a silly idea. The colossus, maybe, but it looks too skinny for a protoss unit and still moves too fast. This is sci-fi, not fantasy, we still have to obey the laws of physics. Zealots and both Templar plus their archons have very sharp angles, as does the dragoon. I think your artistic taste is too personal for it to be a valid reason to change or remove a unit. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6226 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:31 0neder wrote: Stalker - I meant WC3 / zerg aesthetics, not uncanny valley. I was referring to the uncanny valley as in unrealistic. Something as huge as a Thor or Colossus should have some rigidity to it, move slightly awkwardly, and feel mechanical. The Thor would never be built because it's just a silly idea. The colossus, maybe, but it looks too skinny for a protoss unit and still moves too fast. This is sci-fi, not fantasy, we still have to obey the laws of physics. That's not what "uncanny valley" means, though. If you're going to use an obscure term that most people will have to wikipedia, you should use it right. Also mutas flying in space. gg Physics. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
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Eko200
United States101 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:32 Fleebenworth wrote: A lot of this stuff doesn't even make sense... Void rays successful? Colossus art bad? uncanny valley??? Hellions not fast enough? The lack of explanations for anything on your list really makes the whole affair rather pointless. The colossus just doesn't make sense within starcraft, feels very out of place how fast it moves and how little tiny legs it has break forcefields but an immortal doesn't. I agree with most of his listed failures, especially about AOE. In sc1 units would naturally stay out of 'ball' formation so we didn't have to worry as much about tightly clumped units beating higher tech units unable to clump up. In SC2 aoe needs to be more frequent so that better players spread their stuff out and hopefully that will raise the skill ceiling back up to somewhere respectable. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote: Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes: Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures: Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. Roaches should be on the failure list, they should've kept hydras t1 and never added that incredibly boring unit. Also i don't like how FF's are part of the protoss core, you cannot win a battle without it early game but when you get into mid game it turns into this incredibly abusable spell because you can spam it all over the place, make it at least 100 energy but buff up the stalker to compensate. Other than that i agree with most of your points, some of the art i don't care much about and the hellion doesn't need to be faster (they should give it mines instead of blueflame though). | ||
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Phats
Australia534 Posts
Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) LOL you spend a lifetime writing a post worthy of a thesis.. ok slightly exaggerated, and you say the hellion is not fast enough? Have you even watched a pro level game of starcraft 2 in the past 2 months? | ||
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acrimoneyius
United States983 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:30 Doodsmack wrote:What they don't realize is that Blizzard is trying to cater to a wide range of players Every time I hear this argument I face palm. If you make it a priority to balance the game for the highest level of play (limited ways to do this), and then add coolness factor (SEVERAL ways to do this), you generally get a better end result. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:44 Eko200 wrote: The colossus just doesn't make sense within starcraft, feels very out of place how fast it moves and how little tiny legs it has break forcefields but an immortal doesn't. i don't see why. the units aren't to scale, none of them, it was that way in sc1 too because you can't have a battlecruiser the size of a small town on the same screen as a marine or a zergling and expect to make any sense of it as far as playing the game is concerned - but the colossus is obviously meant to be much bigger than it actually appears in-game. these things are the height of skyscrapers, and while their legs are skinny relative to the "head" they'd probably be huge to stand next to. anyway colossi are as sci-fi as it gets, blame war of the worlds if you think they don't belong. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:52 Doc Daneeka wrote: i don't see why. the units aren't to scale, none of them, it was that way in sc1 too because you can't have a battlecruiser the size of a small town on the same screen as a marine or a zergling and expect to make any sense of it as far as playing the game is concerned - but the colossus is obviously meant to be much bigger than it actually appears in-game. these things are the height of skyscrapers, and while their legs are skinny relative to the "head" they'd probably be huge to stand next to. anyway colossi are as sci-fi as it gets, blame war of the worlds if you think they don't belong. My problem with colossus has more to do with gameplay, they just aren't very interesting to use or watch, which I think a lot of people will agree on. The reaver is a much more interesting unit both to watch and to use as it requires much more micro to use, is a good defensive unit and is great for harassment(finally a use for the warp prism which is awesome btw). | ||
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Eschaton
United States1245 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:48 pezit wrote: Roaches should be on the failure list, they should've kept hydras t1 and never added that incredibly boring unit. Also i don't like how FF's are part of the protoss core, you cannot win a battle without it early game but when you get into mid game it turns into this incredibly abusable spell because you can spam it all over the place, make it at least 100 energy but buff up the stalker to compensate. Other than that i agree with most of your points, some of the art i don't care much about and the hellion doesn't need to be faster (they should give it mines instead of blueflame though). Uncanny valley? You mean the colossus and thor look so much like humans that you almost can't tell but subconsciously you know it's NOT REALLY ALIVE?? That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means... | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On August 24 2011 10:46 blade55555 wrote: lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas. Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones. not really. if you're making corruptors anyway, there are uses for them BESIDES the simple ones that everyone can see. Ever corrupt a line of 10 stalkers trying to meatshield for colossi and watch them insta-disappear? Its great for you, bad for the colossi who just lost the meat buffer. Ever go against a terran who's abusing the good old stim and run away through a spread of tanks? Hi medivacs, meet corruptor. Dead medivac, marines that have double stimmed and wasted the stim power, and now are at half health when your army catches up and squishes them. On August 24 2011 10:58 Zato-1 wrote: Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out... whats wrong with you? A mod necro'd a years old thread about the memphis 3 because there was a relevant update to the story. this is only 20 days old? Exactly. Its not even old at all. its still relevant. Not just that, but what I posted was on topic with the thread. what you posted was not, and is useless. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote: Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes: Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures: Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. You play terran? Oh, you wouldn't tell... | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:56 pezit wrote: My problem with colossus has more to do with gameplay, they just aren't very interesting to use or watch, which I think a lot of people will agree on. The reaver is a much more interesting unit both to watch and to use as it requires much more micro to use, is a good defensive unit and is great for harassment(finally a use for the warp prism which is awesome btw). Lusty Dusty stated in the interview where he went through all the things they did on SC2 and why, that colossus are meant to be "a scary raider that crawls up into your base and starts destroying things". Which is a cool idea. but its just that. People don't send lone colossi to kill stuff. People via metagame always get BALLS. and then they smash each other's balls into each other to decide victory. Thats just how it is. Now, I can see there being a good use of colossi sitting outside someones base and you bringing two loads of zealots in WPs to drop them in his nat and then crawl the colossi up into his main, but still, thats a lot more work for a player than just turtling to 200. On August 24 2011 13:48 pezit wrote: Roaches should be on the failure list, they should've kept hydras t1 and never added that incredibly boring unit. Also i don't like how FF's are part of the protoss core, you cannot win a battle without it early game but when you get into mid game it turns into this incredibly abusable spell because you can spam it all over the place, make it at least 100 energy but buff up the stalker to compensate. Other than that i agree with most of your points, some of the art i don't care much about and the hellion doesn't need to be faster (they should give it mines instead of blueflame though). Unfortunately everything in SC2 has a reason, according to dusty. He stated that they worked for many weeks trying to get units that it would sometimes make sense to move again for another shot, like the hellion. The roach is probably designed for the same issue, since its range is shit. Also, DB stated that burrow and tunnel claws are there to give the roach 3 different uses. I don't know about you guys but tunnel claws and burrow fail me all the time. I've won a game decisively about twice or thrice with this mechanic, the terran just wasnt prepared. Otherwise I've been crushed absolutely every time I tried to use burrow and/or tunnel to my advantage vs T or Ps. its just not as powerful as he thinks it is. Thats the problem with zerg as a whole. its either a landslide victory or a landslide loss, and thats an entire design flaw, not a mechanic or balance one. as an addition, I also agree that warp gates should have a higher cooldown time. It doesn't make sense that the upgrade is the first thing to go for, and then people dont use gateways for the rest of the game. Its a rush to warp gate every time. Warp gates = make your units come out twice as fast, make them come out BEFORE the time-cost of building, and can be spammed ANYWHERE on the map. Its pure 100% gains for the warpgate mechanic for a comparatively cheap upgrade. Imagine if the nydus could also spam produce units and spit them out anywhere. It can't. it does one or the other. you know what I'm all for? Switching the timings between warp gate and gateway, so that keeping gateways makes sense, but also puts your units in your base, whereas warpgates make sense when you want to bring units to the front quickly with a proxy pylon or WP, but then you cant reinforce nearly as fast. I'm tired of getting spammed by proxy pylon warp ins faster than I can produce units to counter it. 8 stalkers beats 8 roaches at 6 minutes. its true. | ||
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