|
Someone posted already, but with a lacking OP. I thought the interview was quite revealing and gives us a better taste of what's to come in Heart of the Swarm.
GameSpot Asia managed to land a tour around the hallowed halls of Blizzard Entertainment's Irvine campus recently. In addition to checking out one of Blizzard's other long-awaited title (stay tuned next week, by the by), we had a chat with StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm's lead designer Dustin Browder about the expansion's progress and the changes it may bring to the multiplayer scene.
Things we gather from the interview:
1) Dustin Browder isn't totally clueless
2) Terran feels more or less "complete", to put it lightly
3) Protoss may get a harass unit
4) zerg may get a siege unit (not necessarily the lurker, but a similar role)
Dustin Browder also talks about the possibility of removing units due to their being lame. He mentions the corruptor and overseer, but we can probably fill the blanks on other units. Hydra? Colossus?
He also talks new "shoutcasting" features for BNet. Hopefully that's not all!
EDITED not to rip all of GameSpot's hits.
GSA: What are your thoughts on the latest StarCraft II balances?
DB: It's going well for us. I don't know if the fans agree with that.
GSA: What are the most common complaints?
DB: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
We've fixed a lot of that. The other complaint we're coming back to that was frustrating was the four gate rush in Protoss vs. Protoss. We've done some fixes and it was great. Within the first three days, everyone stopped doing it and it was like, "Arrgh, Blizzard nerfed it! Don't do it anymore." We were like, "We don't think it was that bad." Sure enough, a week later the community was fine with it. PVP was still not as diverse as we wanted it to be; so we'd like to fix that. We're still studying this stuff. Things change so rapidly. We had multiple times now where we've gone and put out a patch. The patch goes through quality assurance and through localization so that it releases throughout multiple regions at the same time.
It's a lengthy process from deciding which balances we want to do to the point where it got live in the community. We've done nerfs to the bunkers and the rushes are no longer in the game by the time the patch goes live. We're like, "Do we need this? Eh…alright, let's just put in what we thought was good at the time and just go with it." The dynamics change so quickly that sometimes it's hard for us to keep up. The fans are still learning so much from the game and figuring out what works. I don't know how much balanced the game is six months from now to a year, but our internal members that checked the win/loss percentage in all regions are very positive except for Grandmaster Korea, which shows an advantage to Terran.
However, we've heard from Korean pro gamers and casual players that this is more of a cultural issue than anything else. Part of the factor is that Terrans do the easiest early-game rushes and they're the most defendable against them too; Koreans do the most rushing when compared to the rest of the world. But I don't know; it could all be lies. It could be, "Oh, it's broken, but [the dev team] did not know that yet." The Europeans, the Americans, and the Chinese haven't figured it out yet.
On the plus side, specifically in the e-sports scene, the win-losses are pretty good in all tournaments. We've seen lots of champions for different races. We've seen Terran, Protoss, and Zerg players win in America, Europe, Korea, Southeast Asia, and China; that's good diversity. If suddenly we get a month of Zerg wins every match, it would be a total disaster. Keep your fingers crossed; things have been going real well for us.
Looking sharp, Kerrigan.
GSA: The official SC2 forums stated that there will be a Heart of the Swarm multiplayer beta coming out. What else can you add on that Wings of Liberty's multiplayer has covered last year?
DB: Well, it's tough. The Terrans have enough stuff already, thus it becomes a guessing game to know what to do for them. We have to be careful about what new units we can add to the game. At the end of the day, we still have to add in cool s***. [Players] are giving us their money; we have to give them something cool.
There are some easy things we can do and there are some hard things. If we study the game, for example, you would say that the corruptor is lame. Don't get us wrong; they're useful. If there are a lot of colossi, you need corruptors. If there are dark templars, you need overseers. They have a battle function for a situation, but what new battle strategies and tactics do they add in the game? Compare the two to the mutalisks; a player can raid, harass. They can get board control; they can decimate opponents without antiair. Party, right? Having those guys around changes the match. Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story.
There are some units we can upgrade wholesale or remove and replace with something better. That's one easy way to give better gameplay without giving so many options you don't know what's going on while also not compromising balance. There may be other places we can legitimately add. For instance, the Protoss don't really have a great way to raid. To a point; they can kind of raid with Phoenixes with anti-gravs and they can cheese with void rays, but that's not really fun. But we can add in a legitimate Protoss raider that gives a player new strategies.
There are a few places (not very many) where we can do new roles for races that are missing roles. There are definitely units that can die in the fire so that we can replace them with something cool. We're looking to upgrade some units and add a few, but we need to keep the unit list down because we don't know how big it's going to be [at this point in time].
GSA: How about applying the expansion concept of Brood Wars in terms of multiplayer?
DB: In that expansion, we added two or three per race. I don't know what we'll do ultimately. We may add one per race plus tweaks, or we may do two on some, maybe three. Not all races will be given equal treatment; the Terrans are really, really good and it's really hard to do more with them. While the other races currently have an equal opportunity to beat them (except for Korean Grandmasters), Terrans are still more flexible and we don't want to add that.
Read full interview: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6325853/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm-qanda-with-dustin-browder
|
It's an interesting interview, and as others said in the closed thread it shows that the Blizzard team has a better understanding of the game than they are reputed to have. Nonetheless, I have to take issue with this comment:
We're not ashamed of putting [the Lurkers] back in. I'm sure they're pretty high on the community request list. They are pretty mighty, since they offer two things to the overall Zerg strategy: the ability to attack while cloaked and the ability to push into a tier-two building. We may have different solutions other than the Lurker, but we're still working on it.
In my opinion, the main purpose of the Lurker is neither of the above. Rather, it is the ability to zone the map (in the same way that siege tanks can). That ability, which is currently achieved somewhat clumsily by mass spine crawlers, would add a lot of tactical possibilities, as it did in Broodwar. Burrowed banelings don't quite work the same way due to their lack of ranged attack. It doesn't necessarily have to be the Lurker, but I would be interested to see a unit that fills that role.
|
I can see how there are problems with Lurkers in SC2. Just from the way the SC2 Zergs tech tree is structured there are difficulties.
In BW Hydras were a hatch tech unit, so you could pop your lair and start your Lurker research right away. In SC2 you'd have to get a lair, then get a hydra den, then get Lurker tech. Having Lurkers before your opponent could have siege tanks or colossus or detection even if you rushed straight for them simply wouldn't happen.
In all honesty, Lurkers would probably make more sense for SC2 if they morphed from Roaches.
But anyway, neat interview. I'm pretty excited to see a HotS beta. I'm sure everybody is. I hope they'll have some more concrete multiplayer stuff for us by Blizzcon.
|
Nice interview. It's always good to get an insight on what the developers think about the current situations. Personally, I hope Zerg get any kind of Tier 2 siege unit, even if it's a brand new one. I don't think that Protoss have problems with harass units, seeing as they have DT's and Phoniex's, but if they could make a nice harass-based unit for Protoss that isn't too powerful and doesn't take too much time to tech to, I'd be interested to see it. As for Terran, just give them more Blue Flame! 
|
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with.
|
On August 02 2011 11:10 whatthefat wrote:It's an interesting interview, and as others said in the closed thread it shows that the Blizzard team has a better understanding of the game than they are reputed to have. Nonetheless, I have to take issue with this comment: Show nested quote +We're not ashamed of putting [the Lurkers] back in. I'm sure they're pretty high on the community request list. They are pretty mighty, since they offer two things to the overall Zerg strategy: the ability to attack while cloaked and the ability to push into a tier-two building. We may have different solutions other than the Lurker, but we're still working on it. In my opinion, the main purpose of the Lurker is neither of the above. Rather, it is the ability to zone the map (in the same way that siege tanks can). That ability, which is currently achieved somewhat clumsily by mass spine crawlers, would add a lot of tactical possibilities, as it did in Broodwar. Burrowed banelings don't quite work the same way due to their lack of ranged attack. It doesn't necessarily have to be the Lurker, but I would be interested to see a unit that fills that role.
burrowed banelings are also, what you can say as "one hit wonders", and don't really provide space control/("zone" as you say) as lurkers did in BW.
|
On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well.
I don't think Reapers need a tweak, but I suppose if Blizzard will tweak a unit, the reaper will be pretty high up there. Just look at the qxc vs Genius game in the TSL. qxc builds like 5 reapers late late game just to go destroy important tech and do scary harass.
|
On August 02 2011 11:10 whatthefat wrote:
In my opinion, the main purpose of the Lurker is neither of the above. Rather, it is the ability to zone the map (in the same way that siege tanks can). That ability, which is currently achieved somewhat clumsily by mass spine crawlers,
So true, this is the only problem zerg has really, a unit with long range that can zone in the map. The terran's tank and the protoss collosus or sentry can zone the map pretty good.
|
Yeah great interview to know that DB actually understands the game. I also feel that Terran is a much more complete race compared to the other races. Not that Terran is imbalanced I actually think the game is balanced just that Terran has more options. I think with HoTS we will see a much better starcraft especially after reading this interview. I'm kind of thinking they will give overlords detection maybe through an upgrade? I think that would be a good fix to the overseer so they can scrap that unit.
|
Take out blue flames and bring back spider mines.
3 free burrowed lurkers per 75 minerals.
It'd make TvT less frustrating right now. LINE EM UP!
|
I wonder how the Terran players feel about maybe not getting a new unit in Hots... I for one am excited to see some new Swarm additions :D
|
A zerg unit that works like a siege tank if it has enough range so doesn't becomes useless would finally add to zerg some strategic value other than the quick fingers and the "lemme surround your army preferably from more than 2 sides".
I think it would definitely make zerg a less frustrating and more fun race to play.
The only concern i have is how will they balance out the infestors fungaling in this combo. It's going to be a slaughter :D but then again it all depends on the range of this new unit :> .
|
On August 02 2011 11:55 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I wonder how the Terran players feel about maybe not getting a new unit in Hots... I for one am excited to see some new Swarm additions :D
I can't imagine them NOT adding a new unit for Terran, that would just be unfair to 1/3 of the people who play this game.
What would perhaps happen is they might remove a unit (reaper lets say) and add a new one, rather than just keeping everything else the same. I think though that they'll just add 1 unit who isn't really all that special but allows Terran more strategies. Perhaps a unit that requires another building, kind of like the Ghost/BC
I can agree though that adding more than 1 unit to Terran would probably be kind of useless, since there really isn't anything that Terran is lacking in terms of unit roles. Maybe an air unit that can hit air/ground without having to change modes before Battlecruiser? But that seems like it's just making Terrans more powerful and have EVEN MORE options rather than being a simple addition. And I say this as a Terran.
|
Protoss harass unit? Awesome!
|
Thanks for the info! I hope they balance a few of the issues that I currently have with Protoss and Zerg, while also making Terran even more interesting to play.
The problem I have with Terran currently is their ability to build very powerful and versatile units from only three production facilities. On top of that, their ability to swap add-ons to speed up production as well as quickly vary their composition is quite strong and easily abused by the top players. I actually think this was some excellent design by Blizzard, as they gave Terran very strong potential at high levels of play. But their other races just seem somewhat one-dimensional at times.
For example, Protoss invests into the Robotics Facility and can only produce the Observer and the Immortal from it. The powerful Colossus is not only incredibly expensive, but the tech structure required to build it is also quite expensive. Take into account the time it takes for both the unit and research to finish (even with chronoboost), Protoss is fairly pinned down to utilizing MASS gateway units to either survive or pressure.
I feel like the Twilight Council path is a really good example of strong Protoss design; tech to Twilight, make your gateway units EVEN BETTER while teching to the powerful High Templar. But even still, the Templar Archives is utilized for one (1!) research, however powerful it may be. And then there is the option to go the Dark Templar route, but the Dark Shrine only allows you to build the unit! Nothing else! I understand Protoss was designed to invest into buildings to get big dividends from the units they allow you to produce, but I feel like there needs to be more.
And then there's the Stargate route, the key ending tech path of Protoss vs Terran in the BW days. There are only two viable units from the Stargate currently. Both the Phoenix and the Void Ray are awesomely designed, I love them! But the main reason they are soooo strong, aside from their utility and power, are the fact that there is no need to invest past the production building itself to utilize their strengths. The Carrier and Mothership not only require a secondary tech structure to build, but they take an eternity to actually get a useful amount out (with the mothership only limited to one!). I don't think an Arbiter-type Stargate unit is too much to ask for, as Stasis Field was a very powerful spell in the Protoss' late-game composition while Recall allowed Protoss to transition their play into a harassment phase.
I'm pretty biased for Protoss here obviously, but I do think Zerg needs some work as well. My only suggestion is to give the Roach a morph at Lair tech. Whether it is the Lurker, the Lurker 2.0, or a completely new unit, it doesn't really matter. Simply put, it's similar to the Protoss' issue of not getting enough out of investing into a tech path. Roaches are very powerful in certain phases of the game, but as the game progresses, faster speed and burrow movement just aren't powerful enough upgrades to truly utilize them in a mid-late game army. Giving them a morph that's powerful in both the mid-game while also supporting their late-game units will give Zerg much more consistency and allow their transitioning to flow much smoother.
In addition, Zerg just really needs a better spell caster. The Defiler was a unit that made late-game worth macro'ing to, while the Infestor and the Broodlords simply cannot compare. I don't know what kind of unit one could design for SC2 that could be as strong and as balanced as the Defiler, but I hope they add something to Hive tech to make it really juicy.
TL;DR: Terran's ability to tech while utilizing their transitional tech building is too versatile in relation to the other races. Protoss needs to invest in quite a lot for one-dimensional play, as well as not getting to utilize many of their tech structures past the point of one upgrade. Zerg needs a better mid-game unit, which can be most easily morphed from the Roach, as well as a strong spellcasting late-game unit like the Defiler.
That's my input. Thanks again for the info!
|
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
|
Since when are lurkers siege units? In terms of how they are used 99% of the time i would best describe them as a mobile defense, and tht's exactly wat zerg is lacking- the ability to hold a position (not take one).
|
On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
so you basically want to play BW
|
If the lurkers just makes an apperence, I'm totally happy with that. If it becomes a playable/make able unit in multiplayer. I'm never asking for anything more out of this game.
|
Wow, Browder and his team are a lot smarter than I thought. Hooray for interviews correcting my ignorance!
Since this seems to have turned into a place to voice our ideas for HotS (who knows, maybe they will read this):
Buff the Carrier.
Add Hydra speed upgrade.
Zerg needs better defense! Either Lurkers or make Spines/Spores morph faster.
Nerf Hellions (yeah I said it). Actually, removing Infernal Preigniter and adding Spider Mines sounds like a pretty fair trade to me, and a lot more dynamic for both players than "Oh look, I just roasted 20 of your workers before your forces could react". If you gave Zerg Lurkers at the same time, it would allow ZvT to become a much more space-control-y game than the current rush-oriented meta.
Protoss needs a space control unit too. I don't have any good ideas for this, but it would be nice to see more games go to 4-base epic winzzz. The Carrier really needs a buff for Protoss to be competitive in the late game, though. Especially since they removed Khaydarin Amulet :/
|
I'm glad to hear the lurker comment. In fact, I think scourge would make the game much more interesting too.
I am worried about the 'Protoss harass unit' comment though. What does he think he designed warp-in for? What does he think zealots, dts, and hts, were used for?
On the other hand though, the Reaver is a GREAT harass unit (cough cough) - Something the Colossus isn't.
Buff the Prism, replace the most boring unit 2nd tier unit in the game (Colossus) with the Reaver.
|
I think Roach > Lurker is kind of boring (in terms of design).
That means a mainly Roach army (ground to ground) will be still be a ground to ground army once upgraded. A contrast is Corruptor(AA) to Brood Lord(Air to Ground siege unit) and Mutalisk (moderate against air and ground) to Guardian (Air to Ground) and Devourer (Air to Air). I like those since it completely changes the unit (making things a bit more interesting in variety).
Hydralisk > Lurker would mean a mix of Hydralisk and Lurker army would allow more variety.
What they should do is make Hydralisk Den require "Roach Warren *OR Lair" (allow you to get Hydralisk while still having a Hatchery) then give unlock Lurker tech (Lurker Den) on Lair. Unlock Seismic Spines (+3 range) upgrade on Hive.
*It's possible to have an "OR" in terms of tech tree requirements.
What this would all mean - Hydralisk would be usable earlier game and Lurkers can fit with Hydralisk in the game.
Finally they should give "Hold Position" and "Weapons Free" (From the Ghost which allows ghost to not attack) to Lurkers (to allow them to mimic BW).
|
Imagine lurkers move-shotting underground. LOL.
|
What I'm hoping for: An upgrade to the ultralisk where they can load up a baneling and catapult it into the enemy army!
|
I really want to see the Sentry taken out and replaced by something that actually requires micro from both sides of the battle (but is still very strong). They're such an integral part of the Protoss army, but they're boring; you never hear "wow, he micro'd against those forcefields well"
|
On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
lol'd at this.
Such ridiculousness.
"I want everything that is effective against zerg to be given the nerf bat to the face."
Back to reality: I'm actually curious to see whether the dev team will be creative or cave in and just use BW units. Either way is fine with me.
|
Seems like they actually have a good grip on balancing, it's just way harder than the community makes it out to be.
|
Right now, there's arcade where we overhaul our custom game interface to make it easier for players to search for custom mods, as well as filter searches so that it'll display the most popular, the most-played ones and new ones off the assembly line.
What does this mean? Is it our good ol' original lobby-custom game list system, with the categories on the side? That would be awesome :O
|
thanks for making this thread, I was going to post something on the other one but instead of the mod asking for more material in the OP, he just closes it  .
Anyways...
Terran doesn't really need much as Dustin has mentioned, they have pretty much all they need. However, I'd very much like to see Thors replaced with cheaper goliaths just because thors are basically BC's that can't fly and is a very boring unit. I'd love it if the science vessel came back and replaced the raven, I'd take irradiate over hunter seeker missile any day.
Zerg also seems decently well rounded but I suppose the lurker would be nice. If the lurker comes back then the infestor needs to be removed because the infestor is covering the lurkers function. I'd like to see a caster that really buffs zerg when they have a lot of units rather than a unit that can deal DPS by itself. The infestor is a unit you can mass and basically counter a lot of different types of units. The BW queen would be cool to see with spawn broodling on tanks or workers and the defiler would be sick with a modified dark swarm for sc2. Remove the corrupter and bring back the scourge, I think zerg would really benefit from a massable unit from an expensive tech structure. I also hope they don't remove the overseer because it's more than just a scout, it's also a harass unit. Contaminate is probably one of the best harass in the game because it can stop production pretty severely, it's especially good against armories, factories, robos, forges and hatcheries. Plus spawn changeling is pretty awesome and unique, changeling also feels very zergy.
I don't think protoss needs a dedicated harass unit. Protoss already has the phoenix, when you get 4 of them they are amazing in PvZ but I suppose they aren't particularly useful in PvP nor are they exceptional in PvT like they are in PvZ. But a harass unit? No they don't need it, they have warp gates and warp prisms for that. If anything, the warp prism needs to be better, I've heard of suggestions for increasing it's maximum HP or swapping it's shields with HP for better survivability. In any case, protoss doesn't need anything more than replacing the mothership with arbiters because the MS is basically a joke.
|
Thanks for the interview! I don't necessarily know if lurkers would fit with the dynamic nature of zerg in Starcraft 2, but I definitely think that zerg needs something to fill that role. Also, a change to corruptors and overseers would be great!
|
Give auto turrets flame attack and blue flame upgrade :D
I also think that some of us wouldn't mind seeing that giant muta that shoots little mutas from that cancelled pro-mod.
|
As Terran, I would rather just see tweaks/replacements because i feel that we already have a versatile set of units. I honestly feel like the Pre-igniter upgrade should be replaced by somthing else like spidermines or just some other unique ability. Hellions are good enough without that upgrade IMO but thats probably just because I'm always on the receiving end >.>
Aside from that, it would be cool if reapers were made more viable to use all game long, possibly similar to how DTs can be used to scout and deny expos. Also, I want to see seeker missiles get enhanced!
|
Um. That is a damn good interview. The corrupter is probably my most hated unit, except when it is on it's way to a broodloord (and even then it's massively expensive, almost the cost of a mothership). They attack to slow to be useful, get outranged by vikings, and one void can almost take down two corrupters all by itself... WTF?
|
I want raven HSM replaced with the ability for it to plant spider mines. How cool would that be, have four or five ravens zooming around the map laying mines and turrets. Make the Spider Mines cost energy, instead of giving them a flat three maybe as well.
|
Food for thought...the Frozen Throne. (Warcraft 3's expo for the nubs)
Rain of Chaos was a great game, but was plagued with difficulties. Wands of negation were game imba in the fact that they were the only means of mass dispel, so all races required them to play effectively. In comes frozen throne, and the whole concept was redesigned. All races started with a new means of dispel, and damage types and armor classes were revamped too to accommodate the spell casters new roll. It took a 'racially balanced' game and allowed for more balance and strategies 'within a race.'
I completely understand what DB is talking about. Its called balance within a race. After Frozen Throne, I also have utmost confidence in Blizzard's ability to start from scratch and redesign what is necessary to provide for a wealth of strategies.
|
On August 02 2011 13:18 emc wrote:thanks for making this thread, I was going to post something on the other one but instead of the mod asking for more material in the OP, he just closes it . Anyways... Terran doesn't really need much as Dustin has mentioned, they have pretty much all they need. However, I'd very much like to see Thors replaced with cheaper goliaths just because thors are basically BC's that can't fly and is a very boring unit. I'd love it if the science vessel came back and replaced the raven, I'd take irradiate over hunter seeker missile any day. Zerg also seems decently well rounded but I suppose the lurker would be nice. If the lurker comes back then the infestor needs to be removed because the infestor is covering the lurkers function. I'd like to see a caster that really buffs zerg when they have a lot of units rather than a unit that can deal DPS by itself. The infestor is a unit you can mass and basically counter a lot of different types of units. The BW queen would be cool to see with spawn broodling on tanks or workers and the defiler would be sick with a modified dark swarm for sc2. Remove the corrupter and bring back the scourge, I think zerg would really benefit from a massable unit from an expensive tech structure. I also hope they don't remove the overseer because it's more than just a scout, it's also a harass unit. Contaminate is probably one of the best harass in the game because it can stop production pretty severely, it's especially good against armories, factories, robos, forges and hatcheries. Plus spawn changeling is pretty awesome and unique, changeling also feels very zergy. I don't think protoss needs a dedicated harass unit. Protoss already has the phoenix, when you get 4 of them they are amazing in PvZ but I suppose they aren't particularly useful in PvP nor are they exceptional in PvT like they are in PvZ. But a harass unit? No they don't need it, they have warp gates and warp prisms for that. If anything, the warp prism needs to be better, I've heard of suggestions for increasing it's maximum HP or swapping it's shields with HP for better survivability. In any case, protoss doesn't need anything more than replacing the mothership with arbiters because the MS is basically a joke.
Here's the thing. Protoss has no -reliable- harass. Pheonix's rely on lifts (once you get in, only a certain amount of damage - max 4 lifts per pheonix), and dts are suicidal (like banes, etc.), both 'limited' harass. There is nothing like mutas, banshees, hellions where damage is 'unlimited'. Warp prism drops is not the same type of harass as these, this was a role filled by reavers in BW, and protoss needs something to fill that niche now.
also, buff fucking warp prisms, its like throwing paper airplanes at your opponent...
|
Zerg needs a better early game defense unit or something or a better way to scout in general.
Lets hope they fixed this
|
If i was game designer this is what i'd do:
Buff hellion orange flame vs light, remove blue flame, add spider mine upgrade
Decrease raven gas 25
Remove corruptor, broods come from mutalisks
Change infestor fungal growth back to 4 seconds and make it similar to ensnare in bw instead of full freeze
Lurkers morph from roaches
Decrease infestor range neural parasite 1
Bring back valkyries
Buff carrier
Bring back arbiter
Enable archon toilets.
Remove colossus/ Swap reaver, decrease support bay build time. New reaver moves as fast as thor
Edit: Allow overseers before lair.
|
On August 02 2011 13:24 Icekommander wrote:
I want raven HSM replaced with the ability for it to plant spider mines. How cool would that be, have four or five ravens zooming around the map laying mines and turrets. Make the Spider Mines cost energy, instead of giving them a flat three maybe as well.
One of the Raven's (or was it Nomad?[Nomad was an early version of the Raven]) abilities in alpha version was laying a turret that lays down 5 nearby mines and cloaks itself. When a mine went off, the main turret uncloaked and replenish any nearby mines.
HSM is a bit underwhelming atm due to most units being able to easily out run it (and if it was buffed to be fast, it'd be a boring generic splash nuke that deals damage).
I guess a buff could be to make HSM controllable (you can street HSM into whichever unit you want) that way it'd prevent the whole fire at one unit then said unit simply runs away issue.
I also kind of agree with replacing or redesigning the Thor. The Thor's Strike Cannon ability is kind of underwhelming too (it actually deals less DPS than a +1 weapons Thor if you take into account starting and finishing time of Strike Cannons).
As for SC2 Reaver? You can spot one in this video >.>:
+ Show Spoiler +
|
That has the be the cutest reaver I have ever seen, I think I'm in love :o
Also what's up with the carrier's shield
|
i want a reaver pillow now, and reaver in sc2 would make me so happy
|
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they?
|
I'm really excited for all the changes. I personally think that both P and T needs a AOE for all the rampant mutalisk play that goes on.
I understand what both races can do to counter mass muta play, but I feel like it dictates a ZvP/ZvT matchup way too much...
My personal opinion.
I have high hopes! :D
|
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion.
|
On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion.
Expect one unit and a fair amount of tweaks. He is right, Terran are pretty fully developed.
|
|
|
I hope they don´t cave in and make SC2 BW 2.0000001 as many people wish.
Don´t get me wrong, I love BW and I still play it from time to time. But I just don´t want SC2 to be a shiny BW with easier mechanics. I am pretty interested in the new units and (something that people seem to forget a lot) new abilities and upgrades the old units will get.
I completely agree in that the corruptor and overseer being too unidimensional as far as their roles go. But the overseer its not really that bad IMO, its not as if the Observer has any cool extra functionality other than being a spotter.
|
Lol at people who are recommending ways to completely buff their race and nerf the other races, instead of actual good suggestions. Anyway a raider unit would be nice for protoss. Phoenix are a huge investment and the amount of damage they do is based on the opponent making errors, unless you do double stargate pheonix, in which case you can still just mass drone to even it out since the toss won't have a ground army (Hongun v. Nestea for example). The problem isn't the warp prism's HP, it is that there is nothing that we would want to put in there. Charge zealots in a mineral line will kill maybe 3 before being being cleaned up, much different than a +2 baneling drop or stimmed marines. Stalkers don't do enough dps to do anything. HT are 150 gas and you need at least 2-3 in there.
I don't even see the problem with the overseer anyway? It's there to detect and scout, not to be some super unit.
|
It seems like I'm vastly outnumbered, but as a (bad) Zerg player I don't want them to add Lurkers. I just don't think they would make the game more interesting - I like the fact that the Zerg are about mobility, not controlling space. My main complaint about Zerg is how weak our AA options are. I wish hydras were tier 1 again and had the speed upgrade from BW, but some new unit that gave better AA options (especially at tier 1) would be good too.
|
On August 02 2011 11:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Things we gather from the interview:
1) Dustin Browder isn't totally clueless
2) Terran feels more or less "complete", to put it lightly
3) Protoss may get a harass unit
4) zerg may get a siege unit (not necessarily the lurker, but a similar role)
Dustin Browder also talks about the possibility of removing units due to their being lame. He mentions the corruptor and overseer, but we can probably fill the blanks on other units. Hydra? Colossus?
I can get behind this stuff. Not bad.
|
On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion.
Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled.
|
Wow this interview is the first I've seen indicating that Blizzard is warming on Lurkers. In the past they've always said no because they think the Baneling fills that role.
I would definitely agree with him that balance is really really good right now. Its only the Korean Terrans that are dominating. How many top tier Korean Protosses can you think of other than MC? Or Zerg, other than Nestea, Losira, and DRG? But lets look at the Terrans: MVP MKP Bomber Nada MMA SC etc etc
Interesting that they probably wont add many more Terran units. I would love it if instead of adding new units they added new addons that do cool stuff.
Like how about an addon that allows you to sacrifice damaged units in order to produce new units more cheaply
Or what about an addon that launches the units produced there in a rocket across the map.
Or what about an addon that cloaks both itself and the building its attached to.
Or what about an addon that allows you to insert SCVs in order to speed up unit production.
So many cool possibilities.
|
actually now that I think about it: Fuck hydras.
There's no point in trying to rationalize BW units that are really bad in SCII.
Either buff them or kick them OUUUUT.
|
On August 02 2011 14:14 Gamegene wrote:
actually now that I think about it: Fuck hydras.
There's no point in trying to rationalize BW units that are really bad in SCII.
Either buff them or kick them OUUUUT.
But I like them
I actually think they have a lot of potential if there is good creep spread.
|
3) Protoss may get a harass unit
This is all I care about. It would make toss so much more fun to play.
|
i think the new expansion should have new unique units, not old bw units. this game should be different from bw. i loved lurkers, defilers and reavers, but they belong in bw.
|
Protoss already has multiple harrass units? DT are annoying as heck and phoenix too.. that's 2 harrass units right there and what about void ray cheese even though its not fun it can win the game outright. What more do u wish 
What I hope they will add =
Lurkers, hydra speed, overlords with detection + new unit while changing the very bad corruptor
|
On August 02 2011 14:28 Flummie wrote:Protoss already has multiple harrass units? DT are annoying as heck and phoenix too.. that's 2 harrass units right there and what about void ray cheese even though its not fun it can win the game outright. What more do u wish
Can't tell if serious, they're both countered by 1 building...
|
Very cool! I hope the planned protoss harass unit is good against mutalisks. I think playing against mutalisks right now is simply not fun at all and there's no really good hard counter to mutalisks that won't result in you dying asap if he switches to roach or hydra. If you scout muta, it's like 6 gate or die.
Also pleasing that he acknowledges that terran is overall more complete and well rounded than zerg or toss. Nobody is going to cry if they add 2- new units to zerg and only 1 to terran.
|
Would really love to see the lurker come back ;x. Nice interview though really, DB always proves that he is not an idiot in his interviews. Although most people seem to believe he is.....
|
Really enjoyed this interview, they definitely know what they are talking about. I agree on all points, it really does feel like they focused on terran with the initial game and they are the most complete race, since they were designing single player with them. It's good they won't be nerfing cool units but just bringing the other races up to the level of completion. Lurkers add a really cool dynamic to the game and would make people think a lot more about detection as protoss.
And if they add reavers back I'm going to fall in love, it was basically the reason I decided to go with protoss in broodwar.
|
Sounds smart, especially the part about corrupters being boring for gameplay/lack of harass units for toss, and Terran being really complete lol. Hope they give ups some cool (and balanced) shit in HotS, definitely looking forward to it.
edit- as for the campaign parts, I hope it's not all DOTA style Kerrigan; while that's fun Zerg is a great macro race and I'd love to have some good old-fashioned base building in there too without too much focuse on Kerrigan being a hero unit.
|
On August 02 2011 12:22 megapants wrote:
In addition, Zerg just really needs a better spell caster. The Defiler was a unit that made late-game worth macro'ing to, while the Infestor and the Broodlords simply cannot compare. I don't know what kind of unit one could design for SC2 that could be as strong and as balanced as the Defiler, but I hope they add something to Hive tech to make it really juicy.
I don't know what kind of bizzaro opposite world you're living in, but Broodlords and Infestors are amazing units. It's Hydras and Ultras that need a buff/reworking, imo. I wouldn't be opposed to a small Infestor nerf. I suppose I get your point that there's nothing comparable to a Defiler anymore, but at this point in the game's development, I think I tier 3 caster like that would throw balance to the wind.
|
On August 02 2011 12:59 0neder wrote:
On the other hand though, the Reaver is a GREAT harass unit (cough cough) - Something the Colossus isn't.
Buff the Prism, replace the most boring unit 2nd tier unit in the game (Colossus) with the Reaver.
.... You just have the need to want sc2 to be sc1 dont you?
Great, the reaver was good. So was scourge, vultures, firebats, lurkers, defilers....... They want to do something new. The colossus IS fun cuz you melt shit.
Corruptor ISNT fun.
|
The fact that he admits that Corruptors and Overseers are garbage (only get this unit to counter x) completely made my day.
I wouldn't be surprised if Hydralisks get an overhaul as well considering they really haven't shined at all since release due to being made of paper mache and being way too slow off creep. However, I have a feeling that instead of making a Hydra speed upgrade Dustin will do something else to make them useful..
|
On August 02 2011 14:34 Malpractice.248 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 12:59 0neder wrote:
On the other hand though, the Reaver is a GREAT harass unit (cough cough) - Something the Colossus isn't.
Buff the Prism, replace the most boring unit 2nd tier unit in the game (Colossus) with the Reaver. .... You just have the need to want sc2 to be sc1 dont you? Great, the reaver was good. So was scourge, vultures, firebats, lurkers, defilers....... They want to do something new. The colossus IS fun cuz you melt shit.Corruptor ISNT fun.
Id put the Colossus on the level of fun with the Corruptor.
A moving or maybe moving back a tiny bit is not fun at all.
|
On August 02 2011 14:35 sagefreke wrote:
The fact that he admits that Corruptors and Overseers are garbage (only get this unit to counter x) completely made my day.
I wouldn't be surprised if Hydralisks get an overhaul as well considering they really haven't shined at all since release due to being made of paper mache and being way too slow off creep. However, I have a feeling that instead of making a Hydra speed upgrade Dustin will do something else to make them useful..
I think they either get a morph like in BW or you buff them through patches or something; either you make them the same paper unit but faster and cheaper and less strong, so kind of like a zergling with range but a little better, or you keep the speed the same and make them more powerful, for kind of like a basic tier 2 tanking unit, kind of like the Roach but better/almost where Immortals are now.
|
On August 02 2011 14:37 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:34 Malpractice.248 wrote:On August 02 2011 12:59 0neder wrote:
On the other hand though, the Reaver is a GREAT harass unit (cough cough) - Something the Colossus isn't.
Buff the Prism, replace the most boring unit 2nd tier unit in the game (Colossus) with the Reaver. .... You just have the need to want sc2 to be sc1 dont you? Great, the reaver was good. So was scourge, vultures, firebats, lurkers, defilers....... They want to do something new. The colossus IS fun cuz you melt shit.Corruptor ISNT fun. Id put the Colossus on the level of fun with the Corruptor. A moving or maybe moving back a tiny bit is not fun at all.
Yeah pretty much this. "Melting shit" is a cool visual effect but in terms of gameplay you just a-move it with your army pretty much.
|
Hope, they don't change Terran, the most complete and diverse race. No weakness no OPness.
Zerg, kinda swarmish but needs some cool stuff.
Protoss is lame. Make a deathball and a-move, or just die. Needs some cool stuff too.
|
On August 02 2011 14:38 bokeevboke wrote:
Hope, they don't change Terran, the most complete and diverse race. No weakness no OPness.
Zerg, kinda swarmish but needs some cool stuff.
Protoss is lame. Make a deathball and a-move, or just die. Needs some cool stuff too.
I want them to bring back those dudes of surfboard looking things that got cut for WoL
|
On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
Is this a troll post lol? It has to be
|
I think that 1 unit that can definitely be reworked/replaced with something else for Terran is the reaper.
|
On August 02 2011 14:38 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:37 arb wrote:On August 02 2011 14:34 Malpractice.248 wrote:On August 02 2011 12:59 0neder wrote:
On the other hand though, the Reaver is a GREAT harass unit (cough cough) - Something the Colossus isn't.
Buff the Prism, replace the most boring unit 2nd tier unit in the game (Colossus) with the Reaver. .... You just have the need to want sc2 to be sc1 dont you? Great, the reaver was good. So was scourge, vultures, firebats, lurkers, defilers....... They want to do something new. The colossus IS fun cuz you melt shit.Corruptor ISNT fun. Id put the Colossus on the level of fun with the Corruptor. A moving or maybe moving back a tiny bit is not fun at all. Yeah pretty much this. "Melting shit" is a cool visual effect but in terms of gameplay you just a-move it with your army pretty much.
I don't know why people want so much micro to be involved with a siege unit. It's a very mobile siege unit, but it's still a siege unit. It should be all about positioning, and it is.
|
Hey you kno, DB actually sounds like he knows the game better than I thought.
I wonder what they are going to do to terran. I agree that the flexibility of the race is insane, and such I wouldn't surprised if they tried to mainstream some strategies while nerfing some unorthodox rush play. For example, I would not be too surprised if they replaced the raven with science vessel, make banshee have a seperate building in order for it to build (like the BC), add back the medic (definitely a possibility), or even completely remove the hellion into something similar to a firebat or vulture.
|
On August 02 2011 14:20 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:14 Gamegene wrote:
actually now that I think about it: Fuck hydras.
There's no point in trying to rationalize BW units that are really bad in SCII.
Either buff them or kick them OUUUUT. But I like them I actually think they have a lot of potential if there is good creep spread.
not to mention they are kind of the iconic zerg unit
|
1 - Terran only need one new unit, the Arclite Seige tank.
Seriously, seeing Boxer's 15 tanks die to 12 marauders and a few medivacs was so retarded. SC2 needs more OP units.
2 - Does Dustin Browder not realize that approaching unit design from 'we need another harass' unit isn't a great idea? Protoss already have a Warp Prism, from which every single one of their gateway units can do amazing harassment.
3 - Top units to Axe:
1 - Colossus - boring, ruins uncanny valley, etc
2 - Thor - same, except less useful than the colossus
3 - Marauder - Terran would be so much more exciting and riskier to watch without them
4 - I guess Corruptors, but we should remove units that make the game less exciting before removing ones that are just reactionary.
Top units to Add:
1 - Lurker (or something similar that evolves from a roach?)
2 - Reaver (much more exciting than the Colossus)
3 - Scourge?
Top units to Fix:
1. Mothership replacement in non-hero form please
2. Carriers - make them slightly more viable
3. Marines - keep DPS, nerf combat shield
4. Tanks - more Damage please
5. Ravens and HSM (and their name and art)
6. Warp Prism very slight buff
7. Hydras or Roaches - make one of them 1 supply for more swarm effect and adjust stats accordingly.
Top things at risk of being axed that shouldn't be:
1. Overseer and contaminate - great spell, shouldn't be eliminated
2. Immortals - their role is still evolving and I think will turn out to be a powerful one
3. Roaches - dumb name and art, but burrow move and regen makes them interesting and will certainly be used more in the future.
|
On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day.
With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game...
|
"Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story."
Love it xD
|
I would like to know how people feel about Terran being the quote on quote "Rushing Race". Obviously i'm not saying you can't play a macro game, but you are required to be active with them to keep up(The other races have to be active also but a lot of the time I feel it's supplement to the players game rather than a necessity) I believe that is the reason Terran's rushes are so strong. My biggest wish would be to give tanks the power they did in BW, and re balance out the supplementary forces, I want Zergs to be scared of tank lines again. Just my thoughts
|
I don't really see why Protoss needs another harass unit. I'd much rather see Mothership and Carrier become a viable endgame choice.
And for Colossus to be a bit more fragile/risky. Very boring to watch 4 Colossi just melt things. Nothing to do with balance, it's just very boring.
|
On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game...
Why do people keep saying this? They also massively nerfed the siege tank for the same reason you know. Just because they bring back the reaver doesn't mean they'll keep all its stats.
|
Instead of the lurker, I want those things we saw in the HotS reveal trailer. The two massive snow Wampabeasts lol
edit; rather instead of the ultra. Those things look and act like the old ultras
|
lurker would be too strong in sc2 if it worked the same way it did in scbw. to be viable it would have to be made weaker or made to attack a single target. the way units stack sc2 would make it way too strong.
|
On August 02 2011 14:59 JiYan wrote:
lurker would be too strong in sc2 if it worked the same way it did in scbw. to be viable it would have to be made weaker or made to attack a single target. the way units stack sc2 would make it way too strong.
I could see the lurker being similar to hellions. Line attack, low base damage but with a significant bonus to [unit type].
|
On August 02 2011 14:59 JiYan wrote:
lurker would be too strong in sc2 if it worked the same way it did in scbw. to be viable it would have to be made weaker or made to attack a single target. the way units stack sc2 would make it way too strong.
I think they should be weaker but not attack a single target.. I believe that just takes away the purpose of Lurkers
|
The only thing I think Terran might need is a more expendable anti-air unit for mech. Thors are kind of "meh" in comparison to the Goliath. The thor shines in that splash damage and their ground damage is great but I miss seeing a group of Goliaths. Thors are big and expensive. It is hard to say they're good anti-air when the real damage is more based on splash instead of single target.
|
i would love if blizzard give terran a counter to battlecruisers that aren't vikings. the only reliable anti air for a mech player revolves around vikings because thors just dont serve a superior anti-air purpose (vikings) and they also dont serve a superior anti ground purpose (siege tanks). blizzard really needs to take a good look at the thor and consider implementing a unit like the goliath.
edit: omg glockateer beat me to it =.=
|
Here's my ideas for what it's worth.
Add scourges to defend drops
Remove Combat Shield (maybe replace it with range upgrade and reduce marine range by 1.)
Make carriers viable in at least one MU
Make Warp Prisms viable
Change Orbital Commands so that building 6+ of them not at bases is no longer viable
Make Raven more useful (replace HSM with something more interesting and micro intensive)
Make mutalisks actually mutate into something at least for lore's sake
Sounds to me however that Blizzard has more drastic changes in mind at least until after Legacy of the Void is released then they will focus on fine tuning.
|
United States7483 Posts
On August 02 2011 15:03 Glockateer wrote:
The only thing I think Terran might need is a more expendable anti-air unit for mech. Thors are kind of "meh" in comparison to the Goliath. The thor shines in that splash damage and their ground damage is great but I miss seeing a group of Goliaths. Thors are big and expensive. It is hard to say they're good anti-air when the real damage is more based on splash instead of single target.
Vikings. Their range is just too good to really require any other unit for that role.
|
If zerg getting lurker, Terran better be getting a better detection units. Because raven just kind of bad for TvZ. Or atleast make HSM something that is worth upgrading.
|
On August 02 2011 14:59 JiYan wrote:
lurker would be too strong in sc2 if it worked the same way it did in scbw. to be viable it would have to be made weaker or made to attack a single target. the way units stack sc2 would make it way too strong.
No they don't, whenever TL Attack plays SC2 Brood War I get a major hard on by how fast and unkillable BW ultras are. As Sen says, "SO CUTE, they move so fast, you see!?"
|
On August 02 2011 15:09 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:03 Glockateer wrote:
The only thing I think Terran might need is a more expendable anti-air unit for mech. Thors are kind of "meh" in comparison to the Goliath. The thor shines in that splash damage and their ground damage is great but I miss seeing a group of Goliaths. Thors are big and expensive. It is hard to say they're good anti-air when the real damage is more based on splash instead of single target. Vikings. Their range is just too good to really require any other unit for that role.
Or stop going straight mech and invest minerals into a couple of reator raxes. Dunno how viable it is since i don't play terran but you already get great anti-air and for cheap too.
|
On August 02 2011 15:08 Brobe wrote:
Add scourges to defend drops
Remove Combat Shield (maybe replace it with range upgrade and reduce marine range by 1.)
Make carriers viable in at least one MU
Make Warp Prisms viable
Change Orbital Commands so that building 6+ of them not at bases is no longer viable
Make Raven more useful (replace HSM with something more interesting and micro intensive)
Make mutalisks actually mutate into something at least for lore's sake
muta / infestor / lings honestly do a decent job already in the current state of zvt. what i would do to make warp prisms viable is to make them BLAZING fast like a mutalisk but not quite phoenix level.
|
On August 02 2011 15:09 SheaR619 wrote:
If zerg getting lurker, Terran better be getting a better detection units. Because raven just kind of bad for TvZ. Or atleast make HSM something that is worth upgrading.
Irradiate! Plaguuuu!
I want bw back
|
On August 02 2011 14:41 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:38 DystopiaX wrote:On August 02 2011 14:37 arb wrote:On August 02 2011 14:34 Malpractice.248 wrote:On August 02 2011 12:59 0neder wrote:
On the other hand though, the Reaver is a GREAT harass unit (cough cough) - Something the Colossus isn't.
Buff the Prism, replace the most boring unit 2nd tier unit in the game (Colossus) with the Reaver. .... You just have the need to want sc2 to be sc1 dont you? Great, the reaver was good. So was scourge, vultures, firebats, lurkers, defilers....... They want to do something new. The colossus IS fun cuz you melt shit.Corruptor ISNT fun. Id put the Colossus on the level of fun with the Corruptor. A moving or maybe moving back a tiny bit is not fun at all. Yeah pretty much this. "Melting shit" is a cool visual effect but in terms of gameplay you just a-move it with your army pretty much. I don't know why people want so much micro to be involved with a siege unit. It's a very mobile siege unit, but it's still a siege unit. It should be all about positioning, and it is.
The problem is that unlike siege tanks (BL's as Z siege unit are just as boring IMO) are interesting because exact positioning matters, and siege/unsiege times means that it's punishing if you don't get it right- look at mech TvT battles- with Collossus, there's no risk. Box over your whole army and keep your collosus behind it and you're golden. If overwhelmed move back and your collossus moves back too. It's not even that I want there to be micro, there's just no risk- either you get out collossus and your opponent has a good counter or he doesn't. The success of Collossi in games is entirely dependant on build orders and your opponent's reaction, not anything you do on your part.
|
On August 02 2011 15:12 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:08 Brobe wrote:
Add scourges to defend drops
Remove Combat Shield (maybe replace it with range upgrade and reduce marine range by 1.)
Make carriers viable in at least one MU
Make Warp Prisms viable
Change Orbital Commands so that building 6+ of them not at bases is no longer viable
Make Raven more useful (replace HSM with something more interesting and micro intensive)
Make mutalisks actually mutate into something at least for lore's sake muta / infestor / lings honestly do a decent job already in the current state of zvt. what i would do to make warp prisms viable is to make them BLAZING fast like a mutalisk but not quite phoenix level.
The thing about warp prisms is that htey have to be nerfed because the reward is so high- dropships are reasonably fast but they can only move a certain number of units at a time; with a warp prism if you manage to get it in place and have a decent number of gateways it's extremely devastating to your opponent. It's the same reason why Nydus Worms are so hard to use- if you do manage to get them up your whole army gets in his base and it's basically GG in alot of cases.
|
Terran needs a good AA mech unit like the Goliath, I hope Blizzard can give some help in making TvP mech viable. MMM is just too boring to watch -_-'
Also, is Dustin admitting to having made the reaper useless?
Anyways, curious to see what additions Protoss and Zerg get, I might switch race depending on the units
|
I feel like if the colossus were gone and replaced with a unit that had to siege, sc2 would be a much better game altogether.
|
On August 02 2011 15:16 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:12 JiYan wrote:On August 02 2011 15:08 Brobe wrote:
Add scourges to defend drops
Remove Combat Shield (maybe replace it with range upgrade and reduce marine range by 1.)
Make carriers viable in at least one MU
Make Warp Prisms viable
Change Orbital Commands so that building 6+ of them not at bases is no longer viable
Make Raven more useful (replace HSM with something more interesting and micro intensive)
Make mutalisks actually mutate into something at least for lore's sake muta / infestor / lings honestly do a decent job already in the current state of zvt. what i would do to make warp prisms viable is to make them BLAZING fast like a mutalisk but not quite phoenix level. The thing about warp prisms is that htey have to be nerfed because the reward is so high- dropships are reasonably fast but they can only move a certain number of units at a time; with a warp prism if you manage to get it in place and have a decent number of gateways it's extremely devastating to your opponent. It's the same reason why Nydus Worms are so hard to use- if you do manage to get them up your whole army gets in his base and it's basically GG in alot of cases.
Warp prisms are only hard to use because of perception and metagame. The whole 'they're made of paper' perception is dumb, they have the same (total) life as medivacs. For whatever reason unless you're going super heavy colossus it's taboo to build more than one robo. Why? Observers are godly, immortals are good, colossus are obviously good, and yes... warp prisms are good too.
It's the same thing as when the game first came out and for whatever reason the perception was Z was weak... while everyone only went roach/hydra without touching banelings, mutas, infestors (still good pre-buff), etc.
|
i would pay $60 just for a legitement battle.net 2.0 so, hopefulyl they just don't blindly add units. Obviously they wont but I would much prefer a 100x better comunity or a battle.net 1.0 back.
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
They better buff my ultralisks, in HOTS cheaper, faster, weaker.
ow shit those are BW ultralisks lolz.
Anyway Reavers would be way too strong in SC2 with the clumping mechanic, especially because Blizzard would most likely just perfect the AI.
Perfect AI with scarabs would be overpowerd in BW, even more so in SC2.
Reaver would need a nerf, but I'd really like it in SC2.
Either that or allow me to shoot banelings with spore crawlers.
Also, Terran has scans , the Raven would need a speed upgrade perhaps but thats about it in terms of what they need.
|
On August 02 2011 15:12 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:09 SheaR619 wrote:
If zerg getting lurker, Terran better be getting a better detection units. Because raven just kind of bad for TvZ. Or atleast make HSM something that is worth upgrading. Irradiate! Plaguuuu! I want bw back
Damn right brother! But I think HSM could do the same thing if it wasnt so bad. I dont think 1 HSm can kill one lurker though lol. If a lurker has less then 100HP it might be kind of problem matic. I think having a good 150 HP for lurker would be good or something around that. Atleast this is what I think blizzard intended for HSM to be used for....:/
|
personally i hope they don't flat out remove anything. i actually quite like the idea of overseers and if they feel the need to change them then so be it, but if they want zerg to have to earn their detection then it's not going to get any more appropriate than the overseer. and the corrupter was cool before they removed its ability to infest enemy starships. it's like the squidy things from the matrix.
|
I like Browders explanation here, they really do seem to have a very strong grip on the game. My only annoyance are the ladder maps. They're not very fun
|
until I get clan features I'll be happy. After that I'm cool.
|
Interesting perspective on Terran, but I agree. Not really sure what kind of new units could be added, we really do have everything needed at the moment. Instead of the usual "nerf everything" approach, they could look at just buffing other things instead.
|
On August 02 2011 15:39 Doc Daneeka wrote:
personally i hope they don't flat out remove anything. i actually quite like the idea of overseers and if they feel the need to change them then so be it, but if they want zerg to have to earn their detection then it's not going to get any more appropriate than the overseer. and the corrupter was cool before they removed its ability to infest enemy starships. it's like the squidy things from the matrix.
I think they're just talking about the stuff surrounding the overseer- it's other powers aren't really good or well used (mass glooping only being good for ZvZ and then that's when you have enough resources to dump into it) and no one uses it but for a "oh shit he's going mass cloaked units". Dustin Browder seems to want units to be made for a variety of situations and strategies, not just "oh he's doing x so I have to do y, and never touch it otherwise"
|
On August 02 2011 15:16 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:12 JiYan wrote:On August 02 2011 15:08 Brobe wrote:
Add scourges to defend drops
Remove Combat Shield (maybe replace it with range upgrade and reduce marine range by 1.)
Make carriers viable in at least one MU
Make Warp Prisms viable
Change Orbital Commands so that building 6+ of them not at bases is no longer viable
Make Raven more useful (replace HSM with something more interesting and micro intensive)
Make mutalisks actually mutate into something at least for lore's sake muta / infestor / lings honestly do a decent job already in the current state of zvt. what i would do to make warp prisms viable is to make them BLAZING fast like a mutalisk but not quite phoenix level. The thing about warp prisms is that htey have to be nerfed because the reward is so high- dropships are reasonably fast but they can only move a certain number of units at a time; with a warp prism if you manage to get it in place and have a decent number of gateways it's extremely devastating to your opponent. It's the same reason why Nydus Worms are so hard to use- if you do manage to get them up your whole army gets in his base and it's basically GG in alot of cases.
It depends. You can't warp in many stalkers at all from a prism, the radius is small and the stalker model is large. You can add in a lot of zealots to catch them off guard or DTs but it will never be a reliable harass tool, and protoss is weaker when the units aren't together. Zealots are bad against roach from zerg and MMM from terran, especially if there is some sort of sim city that reduces surface area. Plus those additional warped in units are suicided, maybe they'll take out some buildings but it would be hard to justify a mass warpin. Marines always can go back into dropships and baneling bombs are a much more effective suicide. The reward isn't that high at all. The only actual viable use of a warp prism seems to be in PvZ and warping in a lot of dts when you're almost maxed and banking a ton to snipe key tech structures before a battle to prevent a remax, and I doubt that was Blizzard's intention with the prism.
|
^I dunno, just theorycrafting here but if you use it mid/late game to send units in all directions, kind of like an MMA style multi pronged drop harass everywhere, and then send your main army in as well, it could be a good kill move.
|
On August 02 2011 15:09 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:03 Glockateer wrote:
The only thing I think Terran might need is a more expendable anti-air unit for mech. Thors are kind of "meh" in comparison to the Goliath. The thor shines in that splash damage and their ground damage is great but I miss seeing a group of Goliaths. Thors are big and expensive. It is hard to say they're good anti-air when the real damage is more based on splash instead of single target. Vikings. Their range is just too good to really require any other unit for that role.
I forgot how exciting viking vs corruptor and viking vs viking battles are!
Vikings wouldn't lose their purpose but goliath-type units have their own purpose as well. Not to mention keeping upgrades having to be spread out or having 0/0 vikings, 0/0 marines to fight air units/brood lords. A goliath would add more options to combat the really strong broodlord/infestor play without having infestors/corruptors pooping on your marines and vikings all the time, for example.
|
arrrrrrgh this gets me so excited, i cannot wait for this to come out
|
On August 02 2011 15:53 Glockateer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On August 02 2011 15:03 Glockateer wrote:
The only thing I think Terran might need is a more expendable anti-air unit for mech. Thors are kind of "meh" in comparison to the Goliath. The thor shines in that splash damage and their ground damage is great but I miss seeing a group of Goliaths. Thors are big and expensive. It is hard to say they're good anti-air when the real damage is more based on splash instead of single target. Vikings. Their range is just too good to really require any other unit for that role. I forgot how exciting viking vs corruptor and viking vs viking battles are! Vikings wouldn't lose their purpose but goliath-type units have their own purpose as well. Not to mention keeping upgrades having to be spread out or having 0/0 vikings, 0/0 marines to fight air units/brood lords. A goliath would add more options to combat the really strong broodlord/infestor play without having infestors/corruptors pooping on your marines and vikings all the time, for example.
If your first sentence is sarcasm, you obviously haven't seen Boxer vs Rain MLG anaheim game 1.
|
On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game...
Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different?
Anyways, I think it might be interesting to add an ability to the corruptor that infested a unit and caused it to spawn broodlings when it dies. I also wouldn't mind medics for terran instead of medivacs, or keeping the medivac in but raising its cost
|
On August 02 2011 15:55 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game... Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different?
Do you really want all of Starcraft to be played around a razers edge? How about this, every time a unit leaves the base, it has a 50% of just exploding?
|
$5 says hellions are GONE in HotS. Terrans will get a new unit, but it won't replace the hellion (maybe the reaper will get a bit stronger).
I doubt Blizzard would have liked seeing so many game-ending hellion strats at MLG. Hellions in the early game, hellions in the mid game, hellions in the end game. Hellions against T. Hellions against Z.
They never struck me as a 'fun' unit to control either. Sure, you can micro them, but they're kinda "sticky". They don't micro smoothly - they'll accelerate full speed into something then stop dead. They don't clump or flow nicely with any other unit. IMO they would be more fun if they moved like Warthogs in Halo: Wars.
|
On August 02 2011 15:55 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game... Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different?
Low skill Terrans don't need good splits against low skill Zergs. They would with Reavers.
More important, Reavers need shuttles to be interesting, and buffing the Warp Prism heath for good reaver harass makes them PRETTY FUCKING GOOD for other warp-in harass. You'd have to choose one or the other, or redesign the reaver pretty heavily, I think
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
On August 02 2011 15:58 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:55 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game... Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different? Do you really want all of Starcraft to be played around a razers edge? How about this, every time a unit leaves the base, it has a 50% of just exploding?
Actually yes, I'd like more ''razor's edge'' units, where if you mismicro or your opponent mismicroes you SHOULD face the consequences. The reaver is such a unit.
Reaver would still need to be redesigned, but the reaver, or a unit LIKE it would make Starcraft(and especially Protoss) more interesting.
The Idea behind the reaver is that it does so much damage but is incredibly fragile, it has to be carried around in a shuttle(the warp prism equivalent in BW). If you lose the shuttle you basically lose the reaver aswell, however if you micro correctly you will do huge damage with the reaver.
Its a very thin but valuable line you walk and that makes for exciting starcraft.
|
On August 02 2011 15:11 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On August 02 2011 15:03 Glockateer wrote:
The only thing I think Terran might need is a more expendable anti-air unit for mech. Thors are kind of "meh" in comparison to the Goliath. The thor shines in that splash damage and their ground damage is great but I miss seeing a group of Goliaths. Thors are big and expensive. It is hard to say they're good anti-air when the real damage is more based on splash instead of single target. Vikings. Their range is just too good to really require any other unit for that role. Or stop going straight mech and invest minerals into a couple of reator raxes. Dunno how viable it is since i don't play terran but you already get great anti-air and for cheap too.
Why do you make a suggestion to dismiss an opinion and then say you don't know how viable it is?
|
On the subject of upgrades for terran, I think it'd be raelly cool to change the caedus reactor(medivac energy upgrade) into something like the campaign version where your medivacs can heal two units at a time, or heal rate increase. Right now, you don't see anyone use a tech lab and build medivacs while getting that terribly mediocre +energy upgrade. And don't zerg already have a siege unit? The brood lord fits that role quite well, albeit you have to tech a long way to get to it.
|
On August 02 2011 16:00 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:58 kodas wrote:On August 02 2011 15:55 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game... Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different? Do you really want all of Starcraft to be played around a razers edge? How about this, every time a unit leaves the base, it has a 50% of just exploding? Actually yes, I'd like more ''razor's edge'' units, where if you mismicro or your opponent mismicroes you SHOULD face the consequences. The reaver is such a unit. Reaver would still need to be redesigned, but the reaver, or a unit LIKE it would make Starcraft(and especially Protoss) more interesting.
From my understanding the one of the things that makes a difference between a player like MVP,NesTea vs Combat EX, Deezer is their abilty to make good decisions over the period of a longer game, if you really wanted this just cheese everygame, A one shot mechanic has it's place but in no way should it be overused, we have plenty of that already
|
On August 02 2011 11:18 Ketara wrote:
I can see how there are problems with Lurkers in SC2. Just from the way the SC2 Zergs tech tree is structured there are difficulties.
In BW Hydras were a hatch tech unit, so you could pop your lair and start your Lurker research right away. In SC2 you'd have to get a lair, then get a hydra den, then get Lurker tech. Having Lurkers before your opponent could have siege tanks or colossus or detection even if you rushed straight for them simply wouldn't happen.
In all honesty, Lurkers would probably make more sense for SC2 if they morphed from Roaches.
But anyway, neat interview. I'm pretty excited to see a HotS beta. I'm sure everybody is. I hope they'll have some more concrete multiplayer stuff for us by Blizzcon.
reading this got me thinking...
The baneling was supposed to repalce the lurkers role but failed...and in order to keep the tech structured...make roaches turn into "lurkers"...waht if you had that concept...but instead of the undergroundspines or whatever lurkers do, you have the upgraded roach launch pseudo banelings while burrowed since they both are acid based attacks. or maybe have like a kog'maw esque acid ball thing that is shot from underground
..just an idea
|
On August 02 2011 15:58 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:55 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game... Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different? Do you really want all of Starcraft to be played around a razers edge? How about this, every time a unit leaves the base, it has a 50% of just exploding?
The game is already about razor edges on so many levels, entire matchup's are based on the smallest micro mistakes (PvP). So many zerg losses from timing attacks come down to slightly bad scouting or one less round of units (that were drones instead). The sarcasm seems unwarranted if you actually even play this game at all.
|
On August 02 2011 16:03 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 16:00 Kipsate wrote:On August 02 2011 15:58 kodas wrote:On August 02 2011 15:55 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game... Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different? Do you really want all of Starcraft to be played around a razers edge? How about this, every time a unit leaves the base, it has a 50% of just exploding? Actually yes, I'd like more ''razor's edge'' units, where if you mismicro or your opponent mismicroes you SHOULD face the consequences. The reaver is such a unit. Reaver would still need to be redesigned, but the reaver, or a unit LIKE it would make Starcraft(and especially Protoss) more interesting. From my understanding the one of the things that makes a difference between a player like MVP,NesTea vs Combat EX, Deezer is their abilty to make good decisions over the period of a longer game, if you really wanted this just cheese everygame, A one shot mechanic has it's place but in no way should it be overused, we have plenty of that already
It would have to have an incredibly high investment cost, or just mediocre damage. Either way I think you risk having many units rendered almost useless(Terran bio in BW).
|
finally a bit of sense coming from blizzard, we need this kinda thing more often
|
On August 02 2011 16:07 Vestige wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:18 Ketara wrote:
I can see how there are problems with Lurkers in SC2. Just from the way the SC2 Zergs tech tree is structured there are difficulties.
In BW Hydras were a hatch tech unit, so you could pop your lair and start your Lurker research right away. In SC2 you'd have to get a lair, then get a hydra den, then get Lurker tech. Having Lurkers before your opponent could have siege tanks or colossus or detection even if you rushed straight for them simply wouldn't happen.
In all honesty, Lurkers would probably make more sense for SC2 if they morphed from Roaches.
But anyway, neat interview. I'm pretty excited to see a HotS beta. I'm sure everybody is. I hope they'll have some more concrete multiplayer stuff for us by Blizzcon. reading this got me thinking... The baneling was supposed to repalce the lurkers role but failed...and in order to keep the tech structured...make roaches turn into "lurkers"...waht if you had that concept...but instead of the undergroundspines or whatever lurkers do, you have the upgraded roach launch pseudo banelings while burrowed since they both are acid based attacks. or maybe have like a kog'maw esque acid ball thing that is shot from underground ..just an idea
Can you point me to where they said banes are supposed to replace lurkers? Seems like a lot of people using a straw argument
|
I feel like most of the posts here are pretty much make SC2 to BW. Lol in my opinion i'd love to see them being creative and create new and unique units that does something different but is also viable in games..
|
On August 02 2011 16:15 SEA_GenesiS wrote:
I feel like most of the posts here are pretty much make SC2 to BW. Lol in my opinion i'd love to see them being creative and create new units..
The best part is that, before beta, everyone was complaining that SC2 would be exactly like BW. Now they're complaining that it isn't exactly like BW.
|
On August 02 2011 15:55 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:53 Glockateer wrote:On August 02 2011 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On August 02 2011 15:03 Glockateer wrote:
The only thing I think Terran might need is a more expendable anti-air unit for mech. Thors are kind of "meh" in comparison to the Goliath. The thor shines in that splash damage and their ground damage is great but I miss seeing a group of Goliaths. Thors are big and expensive. It is hard to say they're good anti-air when the real damage is more based on splash instead of single target. Vikings. Their range is just too good to really require any other unit for that role. I forgot how exciting viking vs corruptor and viking vs viking battles are! Vikings wouldn't lose their purpose but goliath-type units have their own purpose as well. Not to mention keeping upgrades having to be spread out or having 0/0 vikings, 0/0 marines to fight air units/brood lords. A goliath would add more options to combat the really strong broodlord/infestor play without having infestors/corruptors pooping on your marines and vikings all the time, for example. If your first sentence is sarcasm, you obviously haven't seen Boxer vs Rain MLG anaheim game 1.
That wasn't exciting, if Goody vs EU-Terran X ends in a way like thsi (which they kinda often do, compared to other people playing TvT at least  ) everyone would be like BOOOOORING...
|
A biased zerg OP complaining about collosus and hydra lol. Patches may change, but yeah you know the rest.
|
On August 02 2011 16:10 L3g3nd_ wrote:
finally a bit of sense coming from blizzard, we need this kinda thing more often
Blizzard is fairly sensible, but the most passionate fans are here on team liquid while the majority of people on bnet are casuals. And whenever they cater to casuals (or do something for their bottom line), they try to sell it as good for e-sportsers and look silly.
I'd prefer if Blizz were more honest, and it'd improve their rep, but that's actually INSANELY hard to do for a large corporation while maintaining any message control at all. I work in a tiny business that became a large one, so I know that pretty well ;_;
With the lurker, putting it in and making it useful would require moving the hydra to T1, which is a pretty huge design switch. Having something other than hydras morph to lurkers makes the lore sad, so they'd probably make roaches morph into blurkers that are basically the same thing (I like Terralisk as a name for them), and have lurkers proper in the campaign as lair tech because why not.
|
I liked alot of what Dustin's said here but the Blizzard's changes to PvP were not 'great' and haven't come close to fixing the matchup. 4 gate is still the 'go-to' strat even at pro level.
|
On August 02 2011 16:31 Scarecrow wrote:
I liked alot of what Dustin's said here but the Blizzard's changes to PvP were not 'great' and haven't come close to fixing the matchup. 4 gate is still the 'go-to' strat even at pro level.
Yeah, all that nerf did was allow zerg to be greedier in the beginning since there is no threat of any attack while the protoss is on one base that can't be held off with spore crawlers. Four gate was still easily defensible by zerg but they would have to be careful just in case.
On August 02 2011 15:52 DystopiaX wrote:
^I dunno, just theorycrafting here but if you use it mid/late game to send units in all directions, kind of like an MMA style multi pronged drop harass everywhere, and then send your main army in as well, it could be a good kill move.
You want toss to create an additional robo (200/100) to spend 2 supply per warp prism (200 mins) to separate their army into multiple areas, which is when it is weakest, none of which are that good at killing workers? And each of them are 2+ supply, opposed to 1 supply marines. I would much rather have 6 marines than 3 zealots in a mineral line any day. And then attack their army? The only toss unit good at killing workers is a dt, which can be defended against and you can send in to multiple locations without a warp prism in the first place.
|
«Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced»
Sounds good to me.
|
Carriers definitely need a buff. The only time I ever see them these days is the occasional 4v4.
|
On August 02 2011 15:58 kodas wrote:
Do you really want all of Starcraft to be played around a razers edge? How about this, every time a unit leaves the base, it has a 50% of just exploding?
Actually, yes...SC2 is much more forgiving than BW. More HP, less DPS. In BW, you saw control-groups of hydras get blown in two from one psi-storm. You cleared spider-mines by running speedlots past them, or with fancy dragoon micro. And EMP removed ALL shields. And siege tanks...more range, more damage.
So yes, more razor's edge please.
|
I really hope they remove corruptors & baneling for zerg.
Corruptor are just boring.
Baneling looked like fun at the release of sc2 but i'm sick of those battles where banelings are trying to roll run into marines (compare to lurker against marine in BW). It's just dumb.
Lol@ terran comment. I really hope that they won't add one lame unit + useless upgrades for terran. They should reduce their mobility (I hate so much the medivac concept since it was announced) and focus on giving terran really stong units but not mobile.
I may be wrong on this if they remove corruptor for scourges.
The viking is a fail for me. In the first months, we saw some cool strategies with viking landing but it was because of dumb maps (hello kulas ravine). Now, I see them landing 80% of the time in viking vs viking battles.
Reaper & hellion are too close in role and tech.
Terran has a lot of room for changes too.
For protoss, removing colossus for a more exciting unit would be so cool. It's the baneling feeling.
|
I'd be really happy if they removed the marauder and gave terran something else to make up for it.
Because marauders aren't fun at all.
Or if they keep marauders, take away their rocket launchers and give them boxing gloves to make them melee units. Because the tanking damage part is neat, but the concussive shells and massive damage to armored units isn't.
|
So he thinks Terran is really really good eh?
Good interview, hoping for some great new units
|
I have always thought Toss should have some stuff reworked.
Like, having not all units in Gateway, Warpable. (Follow me on this.) Allow certain units to be able to wrap in, while others gateway units build in que. I thought of this awhile ago since I felt if Toss gets another Gateway unit, it'll pose a problem.
Then again maybe not, who knows what they have in mind. I would love to have a Raider though, not a focus on DTs. I would love to have the damn Colossus removed, and rebuff Storm, or maybe the damage scale on the Storm.
I think Zerg needs Lurkers back, or something close to it, I honestly do not like Banelings one bit. I have always thought of Zergs as my 2nd race. They need a bit of stuff re-worked as well. Terrans don't need jack. One more Mech Unit would make mech builds viable again outside of TvT, but that would give the race another damn option of which they have too many. (Sorry AJ) I don't hate Terrans but there just too open in builds.
Probably just culture wise though, Koreans always loved Terrans over the other 2 races. (maybe Zerg.)
|
On August 02 2011 16:34 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 16:31 Scarecrow wrote:
I liked alot of what Dustin's said here but the Blizzard's changes to PvP were not 'great' and haven't come close to fixing the matchup. 4 gate is still the 'go-to' strat even at pro level. Yeah, all that nerf did was allow zerg to be greedier in the beginning since there is no threat of any attack while the protoss is on one base that can't be held off with spore crawlers. Four gate was still easily defensible by zerg but they would have to be careful just in case. Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:52 DystopiaX wrote:
^I dunno, just theorycrafting here but if you use it mid/late game to send units in all directions, kind of like an MMA style multi pronged drop harass everywhere, and then send your main army in as well, it could be a good kill move. You want toss to create an additional robo (200/100) to spend 2 supply per warp prism (200 mins) to separate their army into multiple areas, which is when it is weakest, none of which are that good at killing workers? And each of them are 2+ supply, opposed to 1 supply marines. I would much rather have 6 marines than 3 zealots in a mineral line any day. And then attack their army? The only toss unit good at killing workers is a dt, which can be defended against and you can send in to multiple locations without a warp prism in the first place.
You say these things like it's hard. In the early game yeah, an additional 200/100 is alot but as the game progresses it's not that much; you have to build more buildings anyway. 2 supply isn't bad as it's comparable to medivacs, and 200 mins again isn't that bad in the mid to late game. On top of that, some tosses build a robo for an observer and then tech switch to HT anyway, or build collosus and tech switch, and then never use the robo again unless their observer gets killed. 200 mins isn't that much and you're not losing build time on anything anyway. Stop shitting on ideas before you actually try them, people have done that to current ideas/builds in the past and if anyone bothered to dig up those posts they'd look foolish.
|
i'm not sure about the way they see terrans but, what can i do...
|
One of Dustin's better interviews.
|
zerg needs something like lurker but without splash, baneling fills splash dmg role perfectly and terran doesnt need anything new just rework some of their units like raven and reaper and protoss need some harass unit that they can put warprism and do something with it (something like reaver but without splash because collosus have allready that role but if reaver returned i would switch to protoss O_O)
|
On August 02 2011 17:23 Zazzles wrote:
zerg needs something like lurker but without splash, baneling fills splash dmg role perfectly and terran doesnt need anything new just rework some of their units like raven and reaper and protoss need some harass unit that they can put warprism and do something with it (something like reaver but without splash because collosus have allready that role but if reaver returned i would switch to protoss O_O)
Lurker and reaver without splash dmg. Brillant.
|
|
|
I'd rather they DON'T remove anything and just repurpose or redesign or rebalance the unit a la Brood War. Goliaths were kind of lame in SC1, but became major anti-air support in BW (range upgrade). Do the same to SC2 carriers, overseers, and corruptors. During the beta it was QUITE obvious they didn't know what to do with the corruptor and gave it a lame & plain ability (straight damage boost that otherwise should have been baked in anyway), Reapers also could use some love. People already suggested a late game upgrade would give it purpose or a niche to fill.
I'd also rather they try to fill the role of the lurker with a new unit. As much as I'd like reavers or lurkers, it's lazy.
|
wow that was a sick read, i agree with a ton of things he said. thank god he's the one behind the balancing desk and not the tl community ^^
|
On August 02 2011 17:15 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 16:34 Heavenly wrote:On August 02 2011 16:31 Scarecrow wrote:
I liked alot of what Dustin's said here but the Blizzard's changes to PvP were not 'great' and haven't come close to fixing the matchup. 4 gate is still the 'go-to' strat even at pro level. Yeah, all that nerf did was allow zerg to be greedier in the beginning since there is no threat of any attack while the protoss is on one base that can't be held off with spore crawlers. Four gate was still easily defensible by zerg but they would have to be careful just in case. On August 02 2011 15:52 DystopiaX wrote:
^I dunno, just theorycrafting here but if you use it mid/late game to send units in all directions, kind of like an MMA style multi pronged drop harass everywhere, and then send your main army in as well, it could be a good kill move. You want toss to create an additional robo (200/100) to spend 2 supply per warp prism (200 mins) to separate their army into multiple areas, which is when it is weakest, none of which are that good at killing workers? And each of them are 2+ supply, opposed to 1 supply marines. I would much rather have 6 marines than 3 zealots in a mineral line any day. And then attack their army? The only toss unit good at killing workers is a dt, which can be defended against and you can send in to multiple locations without a warp prism in the first place. You say these things like it's hard. In the early game yeah, an additional 200/100 is alot but as the game progresses it's not that much; you have to build more buildings anyway. 2 supply isn't bad as it's comparable to medivacs, and 200 mins again isn't that bad in the mid to late game. On top of that, some tosses build a robo for an observer and then tech switch to HT anyway, or build collosus and tech switch, and then never use the robo again unless their observer gets killed. 200 mins isn't that much and you're not losing build time on anything anyway. Stop shitting on ideas before you actually try them, people have done that to current ideas/builds in the past and if anyone bothered to dig up those posts they'd look foolish.
You obviously don't play protoss so why are you theorycrafting then acting affronted when someone that plays protoss says your idea is misguided. Guess what? Protoss have discussed this all the time and pros like LiquidTyler agree that warp prisms are bad because there are no units to put in them that are worth it. Pretty sure they had a discussion on SotG. A warp prism is not in any way, shape, or form the same as a medivac, which is an important part of any terran army. 2 supply per prism, multiple prisms, that's one more potential colossus in your army. Then what, another 20 supply at least dedicated to "dropping" multiple fronts, leaving you with a far inferior army size when you do attack? Since you are claiming that people just tech switch to HT I guess you are talking about terran. Always a great idea to attack into a full terran ball with 26 supply elsewhere. Think of all the lost mining time they're suffering, once your entire army is wiped out. Maybe you think everyone should pull a WhiteRa and do a two archon drop that gets killed after killing three workers?
You also didn't address any of my other points either.
The point is that you are what appears to be a random zerg on the forums thinking that you have come up with some brilliant idea that everyone who plays protoss hasn't attempted. Stop QQing and acting like your flawed idea is the next revolutionary step in protoss gameplay. The warp prism does nothing that a pylon can't.
|
I'd like to see reapers being able to be built from a reactored rax,
but in order to do that, you need to have an armory constructed.
|
Adun clearly has been having a bit of talk with Dustin. Nice. Looking forward to some of the changes.
I don't think, however, that that SC2 should become BW reworked. It's become it's own game, and should develop along those lines. Here's hoping that this good game becomes a very good game, and, hopefully by the time of LOTV, becomes a great game (like BW).
|
On August 02 2011 12:04 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:55 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I wonder how the Terran players feel about maybe not getting a new unit in Hots... I for one am excited to see some new Swarm additions :D I can't imagine them NOT adding a new unit for Terran, that would just be unfair to 1/3 of the people who play this game.
I am a (mostly) Terran player and I care mostly about them leaving the game as a good game. If there are no new Terran units I won't mind. But I am old, so maybe I am a bit boring
|
On August 02 2011 17:26 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +but our internal members that checked the win/loss percentage in all regions are very positive except for Grandmaster Korea, which shows an advantage to Terran. I've been saying this for so long. At the very top level, Terran just has that little bit of an edge atm. Below that level it doesn't really matter (so it ain't gonna effect 99.9% of the player-base and probably doesn't need any massive changes to happen), but at the very top...
He noted that it might be because GM koreans favour a play style that favour Terran, not that there is necessarily an inherent imbalance.
Because at the VERY top, we had a ZvZ. I am talking about the GSL.
|
On August 02 2011 17:26 HubertFelix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 17:23 Zazzles wrote:
zerg needs something like lurker but without splash, baneling fills splash dmg role perfectly and terran doesnt need anything new just rework some of their units like raven and reaper and protoss need some harass unit that they can put warprism and do something with it (something like reaver but without splash because collosus have allready that role but if reaver returned i would switch to protoss O_O) Lurker and reaver without splash dmg. Brillant.
This will be so awesome:
+ Show Spoiler +
Especially 1 unit at a time. The lack of a space controlling unit is rough for zerg definitely gives them a much different feel.
Alright interview. I was interested by his comment about if zerg won every game for a month some eyebrows would be raised. I hope some eyebrows are being raised right now for the sake of a viewable future. Definitely agree though with the sentiment that Terran was beautifully designed unit wise. Some of the cost bits and maybe marauders are meh but they have so many good spell casters that make them so dynamic without being boring or overdone.
Edit:
No late game? Other races late game exists to deal with your army from the 7min mark. Especially since they took out khayd and left in insta emp. I don't know how terrans can complain especially with the tourne results these days and the trends over the past 12 months.
|
Isn't Terran supposed to have more options? Isn't that how Terran is designed to win, a tool for every job? Terran has no late game, Thors are BC's are extremely situational and most times useless, but Terran has a very broad mid-game to make up for it. I thought that was how they designed Terran.
|
On August 02 2011 16:43 tomatriedes wrote:
Carriers definitely need a buff. The only time I ever see them these days is the occasional 4v4. Maybe Blizzard is cool with that, that some units are rarely ever used in 1v1.
|
I like how Dustin Browder said almost EXACTLY what my fantasy interview would have consisted of :D
In a thread discussing what people thought would be in HotS, I said that the Corruptor was a dull unit and would need to be improved upon, Protoss needed better/earlier/less situational harassment, Zerg needed a tough unit that could take out big things (kinda seige unit) and Terran seemed fine. WIN!
Can't wait for HotS beta.
|
DB: ...At the end of the day, we still have to add in cool s***. [Players] are giving us their money; we have to give them something cool.
No, no you really don't. I'd give you money not to do it.
Unless it's Reavers.
On August 02 2011 18:21 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 16:43 tomatriedes wrote:
Carriers definitely need a buff. The only time I ever see them these days is the occasional 4v4. Maybe Blizzard is cool with that, that some units are rarely ever used in 1v1.
I'm cool with that too, as long as it ain't Carriers. Carriers are iconic.
Colossi and Motherships should've been the "casual" units tbh, if any.
|
On August 02 2011 17:40 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 17:15 DystopiaX wrote:On August 02 2011 16:34 Heavenly wrote:On August 02 2011 16:31 Scarecrow wrote:
I liked alot of what Dustin's said here but the Blizzard's changes to PvP were not 'great' and haven't come close to fixing the matchup. 4 gate is still the 'go-to' strat even at pro level. Yeah, all that nerf did was allow zerg to be greedier in the beginning since there is no threat of any attack while the protoss is on one base that can't be held off with spore crawlers. Four gate was still easily defensible by zerg but they would have to be careful just in case. On August 02 2011 15:52 DystopiaX wrote:
^I dunno, just theorycrafting here but if you use it mid/late game to send units in all directions, kind of like an MMA style multi pronged drop harass everywhere, and then send your main army in as well, it could be a good kill move. You want toss to create an additional robo (200/100) to spend 2 supply per warp prism (200 mins) to separate their army into multiple areas, which is when it is weakest, none of which are that good at killing workers? And each of them are 2+ supply, opposed to 1 supply marines. I would much rather have 6 marines than 3 zealots in a mineral line any day. And then attack their army? The only toss unit good at killing workers is a dt, which can be defended against and you can send in to multiple locations without a warp prism in the first place. You say these things like it's hard. In the early game yeah, an additional 200/100 is alot but as the game progresses it's not that much; you have to build more buildings anyway. 2 supply isn't bad as it's comparable to medivacs, and 200 mins again isn't that bad in the mid to late game. On top of that, some tosses build a robo for an observer and then tech switch to HT anyway, or build collosus and tech switch, and then never use the robo again unless their observer gets killed. 200 mins isn't that much and you're not losing build time on anything anyway. Stop shitting on ideas before you actually try them, people have done that to current ideas/builds in the past and if anyone bothered to dig up those posts they'd look foolish. You obviously don't play protoss so why are you theorycrafting then acting affronted when someone that plays protoss says your idea is misguided. Guess what? Protoss have discussed this all the time and pros like LiquidTyler agree that warp prisms are bad because there are no units to put in them that are worth it. Pretty sure they had a discussion on SotG. A warp prism is not in any way, shape, or form the same as a medivac, which is an important part of any terran army. 2 supply per prism, multiple prisms, that's one more potential colossus in your army. Then what, another 20 supply at least dedicated to "dropping" multiple fronts, leaving you with a far inferior army size when you do attack? Since you are claiming that people just tech switch to HT I guess you are talking about terran. Always a great idea to attack into a full terran ball with 26 supply elsewhere. Think of all the lost mining time they're suffering, once your entire army is wiped out. Maybe you think everyone should pull a WhiteRa and do a two archon drop that gets killed after killing three workers? You also didn't address any of my other points either. The point is that you are what appears to be a random zerg on the forums thinking that you have come up with some brilliant idea that everyone who plays protoss hasn't attempted. Stop QQing and acting like your flawed idea is the next revolutionary step in protoss gameplay. The warp prism does nothing that a pylon can't.
I actually think a warp prism (or 2) can do a ton defensively. We see a lot of zergs these days going roach, baneling, zergling style for a long part of the game. Having warp prism's nearby can not only retain your most critical units (colossus, sentry, HT), but also punish a zerg who tries to do too many two-pronged attacks.
Imagine you're playing on the map Tal-Darim Altar, and you need to secure your third. Zerg starts attacking through the back entrance to your third, up your ramp, and dropping your main. Generally they can just run away if you chase, but if you flank them with sentries and just force field trap the army, they're going to lose a lot of supply. The warp prism is going to allow you to retain your sentries and grant them extra mobility.
I'd tend to agree with you on the fact that warp prism is sub-par for harassment, unless it is DT. The cost of warp prisms also probably does not need to be 200 minerals, as most of the "cost" equates to less production for other robo units. It would be really interesting if warp prisms could still move in "warp phase mode", possibly at 50% speed.
|
On August 02 2011 11:55 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I wonder how the Terran players feel about maybe not getting a new unit in Hots... I for one am excited to see some new Swarm additions :D
LOL, Terran will get new units, as will Zerg and Protoss. They may not be as good, but Blizzard isn't stupid, and not adding new Terran units would cause such a storm, it would overshadow everything else regarding HOTS, and the folks at Blizzard want their expansion to be a success, and run as smoothly as possible.
|
[B]On August 02 2011 13:18 emc wrote:[/]
Anyways...
Terran doesn't really need much as Dustin has mentioned, they have pretty much all they need. However, I'd very much like to see Thors replaced with cheaper goliaths just because thors are basically BC's that can't fly and is a very boring unit. I'd love it if the science vessel came back and replaced the raven, I'd take irradiate over hunter seeker missile any day.
Zerg also seems decently well rounded but I suppose the lurker would be nice. If the lurker comes back then the infestor needs to be removed because the infestor is covering the lurkers function. I'd like to see a caster that really buffs zerg when they have a lot of units rather than a unit that can deal DPS by itself. The infestor is a unit you can mass and basically counter a lot of different types of units. The BW queen would be cool to see with spawn broodling on tanks or workers and the defiler would be sick with a modified dark swarm for sc2. Remove the corrupter and bring back the scourge, I think zerg would really benefit from a massable unit from an expensive tech structure. I also hope they don't remove the overseer because it's more than just a scout, it's also a harass unit. Contaminate is probably one of the best harass in the game because it can stop production pretty severely, it's especially good against armories, factories, robos, forges and hatcheries. Plus spawn changeling is pretty awesome and unique, changeling also feels very zergy.
Wow! U so creative - Why don't u go back playing BW since the Game u admire already exists.
13 Years After BW im glad that Blizzard is trying to impliment New ideas. There is enough nostalgia in the Game already.
|
You heard this from here:
Terran isnt getting a new unit but Irradiate is gonna replace Seeker Missile on the Raven.
|
The prospect of no new Terran units makes me sad I think they're right though, T does feel the most complete race, zerg I think needs a unit to control space more, and P needs a better version of the phoenix. I would like to see Reapers buffed though and maybe Thor merged into some kind of Goliath like thing. A faster Thor pretty much.
|
Goliaths were kind of lame in SC1, but became major anti-air support in BW (range upgrade). Do the same to SC2 carriers, overseers, and corruptors.
Yes, but all the Goliath needed was a simple range upgrade. It already had an anti-air role in terms of damage; the range just made it more powerful at that. The Overseer needs spells that don't suck and the Corruptor needs an ability that doesn't suck. That's rather harder to do well.
Though it would be a shame to waste a good model like the Corruptor.
|
I think DB is saying corruptors might get another upgrade?
|
I think Terran will get a new unit, but I guess it will be a retarded one like protoss has the mothership
In all honesty, I believe Blizz will give "something" to the Terran fans which will prove to be very gimicky.....
Protoss getting a useful (!) harassment-unit completely made my day. Even though it might turn out to make DT-openings useless since you need the dark shrine, the lack of efficient harassment is a huge problem especially in PvZ. Nowadays zergs just drone and drone and drone, have 70 drones at 12 minutes and are maxed a couple minutes later on pure roach.
The zerg-"siege/zoning"-unit is in my opinion needed too, since burrowed banelings just don't fulfil their role nearly as effectively as lurkers. Even though I'd hate it if Blizz just brought back lurkers instead of doing something more creative, if they don't have any better idea, then it's better than nothing.
Overall I'm so happy to see that the big boss doesn't deny that Terran is the most "complete", flexible race with the most possibilities and the easiest timing pushs. This means that maybe we will see some changes even before the HotS.
|
On August 02 2011 18:45 Sufficiency wrote:
I think DB is saying corruptors might get another upgrade?
Upgrade/replacement/change/buff/whatever. Indeed.
|
Don't like the idea of removing units :/. Even though corruptors suck terribly I think they could easily be fixed with a little buffing. Perhaps if they had some harass potential instead of just being subpar anti-air that's greatest use is to morph into a better unit. Idk, I just don't want to see a cool looking unit go into the trash when it clearly isn't beyond repair.
|
On August 02 2011 18:45 Sufficiency wrote:
I think DB is saying corruptors might get another upgrade?
Imagine corruptors with Plague....
Now THAT would be IMBA.
|
Cant wait for that new Zerg Unit!! and remove seers, and give overlord upgrades/abilities (but balanced)
Looking forward for corruptors
|
On August 02 2011 19:05 Mutaahh wrote:
Cant wait for that new Zerg Unit!! and remove seers, and give overlord upgrades/abilities (but balanced)
Looking forward for corruptors
Like spewing creeps and upgrading into an overseer? lol
|
Give corruptors ability to attack buildings.
Remove colossi, I hate them.
More dota-like spells and abilities :D
|
On August 02 2011 15:55 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:53 Glockateer wrote:On August 02 2011 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On August 02 2011 15:03 Glockateer wrote:
The only thing I think Terran might need is a more expendable anti-air unit for mech. Thors are kind of "meh" in comparison to the Goliath. The thor shines in that splash damage and their ground damage is great but I miss seeing a group of Goliaths. Thors are big and expensive. It is hard to say they're good anti-air when the real damage is more based on splash instead of single target. Vikings. Their range is just too good to really require any other unit for that role. I forgot how exciting viking vs corruptor and viking vs viking battles are! Vikings wouldn't lose their purpose but goliath-type units have their own purpose as well. Not to mention keeping upgrades having to be spread out or having 0/0 vikings, 0/0 marines to fight air units/brood lords. A goliath would add more options to combat the really strong broodlord/infestor play without having infestors/corruptors pooping on your marines and vikings all the time, for example. If your first sentence is sarcasm, you obviously haven't seen Boxer vs Rain MLG anaheim game 1.
oh yea 1hour tvt slugfest, with both players having 40 vikings camping on both sides on the map... so thrilling
and useless ravens trying to be valkyries with their hsms...
tvt into air vs air transition can be actually thrilling(http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/67088_Bogus_vs_firebathero/vod)
the lack of mobility and micro-ability for viking/corruptor makes it uninteresting air unit (also delay on firing missiles). wraiths were more fragile, but more mobile and had cloak.
|
A lot of you seem to want BW units in SC2.
I'm one of the few that really wants new and unique units to the game. Surprise me Blizzard!
|
It's weird to think how different HotS could be. Removing the corrupter and overseer, adding 3 new units to zerg, giving protoss a harass unit. . . that would all make for a very different feeling game.
|
On August 02 2011 18:40 Psychobabas wrote:
You heard this from here:
Terran isnt getting a new unit but Irradiate is gonna replace Seeker Missile on the Raven.
Irradiate a blue flame hellion, now thats something to rage quit about!
Approved!
On a more serious note, I would like to see the locking spells such as forcefields and fungal growth tweaked. Both start out strong jsut like now, but slowly fade away in this way.
-Forcefields will show cracks and become attackable haflway through the spell
-Fungal growth will slowly go from ocmpletely immobilized to 50 % movement inhibiting and so on.
I like dynamic fights, and as a zerg, both of these spells just give either player complete control of the battlefield, its not fun even though it might be hilarious to see 40 marines burst into clouds of blood when you cast 2 75 energy spells on them.
|
i don't get why people want to see the reaper buffed. it's already a perfect early game scout and often times it gets at least 1 worker. also, he is perfect for a bunker rush. sounds fine to me. I think he already fits its role and people would automatically use him more if other harassment options like hellions (drops) would be gone. He is redundant late game but already far from useless early on.
carriers and ultras are less useful imo
|
Finally a harass unit for Protoss. Aside from chronoboosting and pressuring around the joint, if Phoenix is impractical there's not a whole lot to do when there's no action. I want something I can micro 24/7, dammit!
|
On August 02 2011 20:32 OldManZerg wrote:
It's weird to think how different HotS could be. Removing the corrupter and overseer, adding 3 new units to zerg, giving protoss a harass unit. . . that would all make for a very different feeling game.
TFT made a 100% completely different game out of warcraft 3, so I wouldn't be surprised. Before the add-on warcraft 3 was all about mass-casters, after TFT melee units actually started to become useful.
On August 02 2011 20:55 Ruscour wrote:
Finally a harass unit for Protoss. Aside from chronoboosting and pressuring around the joint, if Phoenix is impractical there's not a whole lot to do when there's no action. I want something I can micro 24/7, dammit!
I approve of this statement.
Especially zergs have always complained that toss just sits back and macroes up a deathball. Well, hurr-durr it's kinda hard to do anything beside that when both phoenixes and DTs can be rendered useless by exactly one spore-crawler. Sometimes I've felt that phoenixes should get an anti-building-attack-upgrade (not anti-ground!) that could even be rather expensive....
It doesn't have to be the reaper, but something that serves a role as overall decent harassment-unit that cannot be HARD (!) countered. Like mutas and medivac-drops, even if you are prepared they kinda always do at least "some" damage.
|
On August 02 2011 20:41 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 18:40 Psychobabas wrote:
You heard this from here:
Terran isnt getting a new unit but Irradiate is gonna replace Seeker Missile on the Raven.
Irradiate a blue flame hellion, now thats something to rage quit about! Approved! On a more serious note, I would like to see the locking spells such as forcefields and fungal growth tweaked. Both start out strong jsut like now, but slowly fade away in this way. -Forcefields will show cracks and become attackable haflway through the spell -Fungal growth will slowly go from ocmpletely immobilized to 50 % movement inhibiting and so on. I like dynamic fights, and as a zerg, both of these spells just give either player complete control of the battlefield, its not fun even though it might be hilarious to see 40 marines burst into clouds of blood when you cast 2 75 energy spells on them.
Nah just get rid of the smart casting.
|
Can't seem to understand how can he say terran is complete when broodlord infestor rapes every terran composition out there, ghosts included.
|
Wow, jow does toss need a harass unit? They already got dts which are very potent and in pvz toss just has to play devensive, max and push before bl comes out.... so what do they need a harass unit for? And btw YES, i am zerg
|
On August 02 2011 18:51 sleepingdog wrote:I think Terran will get a new unit, but I guess it will be a retarded one like protoss has the mothership In all honesty, I believe Blizz will give "something" to the Terran fans which will prove to be very gimicky..... Protoss getting a useful (!) harassment-unit completely made my day. Even though it might turn out to make DT-openings useless since you need the dark shrine, the lack of efficient harassment is a huge problem especially in PvZ. Nowadays zergs just drone and drone and drone, have 70 drones at 12 minutes and are maxed a couple minutes later on pure roach. The zerg-"siege/zoning"-unit is in my opinion needed too, since burrowed banelings just don't fulfil their role nearly as effectively as lurkers. Even though I'd hate it if Blizz just brought back lurkers instead of doing something more creative, if they don't have any better idea, then it's better than nothing. Overall I'm so happy to see that the big boss doesn't deny that Terran is the most "complete", flexible race with the most possibilities and the easiest timing pushs. This means that maybe we will see some changes even before the HotS.
You put your words into his mouth. He didn't say they have the easiest early pushes he said that Korean GM has imbalanced win % and that koreans tend to play more aggressive styles. He said that Terran is versatile enough that they don't need anything new to complete the race. I dont think lurkers would be a bad idea, I would need to actually play them and vs them on the Ptr before i decided one way or another, in combo they could turn out to be OP with some zerg units. Also to the Protoss above, the way I think your supposed to counteract the way Zergs play now is with timing attacks, that's how I do it at least. Terran is able to do drop and hellion harras but for the time being Protoss`s most viable way to counteract a booming zerg economy is a timing attack around the third base timing of the zerg.
|
Nerf early game Terran, buff late game.
Nerf mid-late-game Zerg, buff early game
Nerf late-game Protoss, buff early game
Would be nice
|
On August 02 2011 21:17 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Nerf early game Terran, buff late game.
Nerf mid-late-game Zerg, buff early game
Nerf late-game Protoss, buff early game
Would be nice
rename all races to ztossran and make them have same units, would be awsome!
|
Protoss needs a warp-prism which is not made of paper, not a specifically designed harass-unit.
Btw, hope the mothership gets removed in multiplayer.
|
On August 02 2011 16:16 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 16:15 SEA_GenesiS wrote:
I feel like most of the posts here are pretty much make SC2 to BW. Lol in my opinion i'd love to see them being creative and create new units.. The best part is that, before beta, everyone was complaining that SC2 would be exactly like BW. Now they're complaining that it isn't exactly like BW.
when HotS comes out, everyone will complain that it isn't like WoL
|
On August 02 2011 21:19 Primal666 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 21:17 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Nerf early game Terran, buff late game.
Nerf mid-late-game Zerg, buff early game
Nerf late-game Protoss, buff early game
Would be nice rename all races to ztossran and make them have same units, would be awsome!
While his comment was simplistic, I think that's what they have in mind at least in the balancing process, I dont think they just sit around and randomly decide something needs to be changed at random. I kind of agree with him but what would those buff`s nerf`s entail. To respond to your comment, do you think that advantages in stages of the game need to exist or do you think that his ideas of advantages in certain stages are false?
|
On August 02 2011 21:09 Pred8oar wrote:Wow, jow does toss need a harass unit? They already got dts which are very potent and in pvz toss just has to play devensive, max and push before bl comes out.... so what do they need a harass unit for? And btw YES, i am zerg
He means that while terrans have banshees, reapers, and a plethora of drops, and while zerg have mutalisks, burrowed infestors, and a few drops, protoss has DTs, phoenixes (kind of), blink stalkers (kind of), and maybe the occasional HT drop.
|
On August 02 2011 13:24 Icekommander wrote:
I want raven HSM replaced with the ability for it to plant spider mines. How cool would that be, have four or five ravens zooming around the map laying mines and turrets. Make the Spider Mines cost energy, instead of giving them a flat three maybe as well.
This... Is actually a neat idea.
|
Damn, seems like no nice stuff for Terran, just something marginal so the players couldn't complain (that much). Really dissapointed by that approach. Oh well, seems like I'll do without HotS after all.
I don't necessarily want a new unit, but a new mechanic would be sweet. Consider how awesome and revolutionary warp-in is. What did Terrans get in that regard since BW? Nothing. Also some proper offensive spellcaster would be nice, ghost is mostly (2 in 3 matchups) defensive unit (to EMP enemy spellcasters) and that Raven's mine is a joke.
I'm not saying Protoss or Zerg are less incomplete, but if they consider Terran pretty much done, they have an awfully low standards for completeness.
|
On August 02 2011 21:10 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 18:51 sleepingdog wrote:I think Terran will get a new unit, but I guess it will be a retarded one like protoss has the mothership In all honesty, I believe Blizz will give "something" to the Terran fans which will prove to be very gimicky..... Protoss getting a useful (!) harassment-unit completely made my day. Even though it might turn out to make DT-openings useless since you need the dark shrine, the lack of efficient harassment is a huge problem especially in PvZ. Nowadays zergs just drone and drone and drone, have 70 drones at 12 minutes and are maxed a couple minutes later on pure roach. The zerg-"siege/zoning"-unit is in my opinion needed too, since burrowed banelings just don't fulfil their role nearly as effectively as lurkers. Even though I'd hate it if Blizz just brought back lurkers instead of doing something more creative, if they don't have any better idea, then it's better than nothing. Overall I'm so happy to see that the big boss doesn't deny that Terran is the most "complete", flexible race with the most possibilities and the easiest timing pushs. This means that maybe we will see some changes even before the HotS. You put your words into his mouth. He didn't say they have the easiest early pushes
DB wrote
However, we've heard from Korean pro gamers and casual players that this is more of a cultural issue than anything else. Part of the factor is that Terrans do the easiest early-game rushes and they're the most defendable against them too;
If you critizise me, please don't base this on false facts.
|
On August 02 2011 21:28 L0thar wrote:
Damn, seems like no nice stuff for Terran, just something marginal so the players couldn't complain (that much). Really dissapointed by that approach. Oh well, seems like I'll do without HotS after all.
I don't necessarily want a new unit, but a new mechanic would be sweet. Consider how awesome and revolutionary warp-in is. What did Terrans get in that regard since BW? Nothing. Also some proper offensive spellcaster would be nice, ghost is mostly (2 in 3 matchups) defensive unit (to EMP enemy spellcasters) and that Raven's mine is a joke.
I'm not saying Protoss or Zerg are less incomplete, but if they consider Terran pretty much done, they have an awfully low standards for completeness.
They will definitely add upgrades for existing units, like a spider mine for reapers etc etc...
Blizzard has never been disappointing with their expansions.
|
Remove banelings and replace them with the lurker please !!!!!!
Remove corrupter and replace it with some new unit
Make hydra same as in BW and move roach to tier 2.
Remove Colossus and replace it with the reaver.
|
On August 02 2011 21:52 thehitman wrote:
Remove banelings and replace them with the lurker please !!!!!!
Remove corrupter and replace it with some new unit
Make hydra same as in BW and move roach to tier 2.
Remove Colossus and replace it with the reaver.
Yeah make Sc2 exactly like BW blahblahblubb
Do you people never get tired?
|
A couple things I'd like to see out of the units in heart of the swarm (and these have all been said before).
Dynamic units that are not just good a one role (read: not just a counter unit). That require strategic mastery to be cost efficient (using them in the right way at the right time).
Units that are positional strong. One of the best strategies in any game or war is locking down or denying surface area. The siege tank (and hopefully lurker!) does this and forces you to clearly make a decision on whether or not you want to deny a place as opposed to another place. Additionally these units require a set up time... which leads me to my next point.
The terrible terrible damage syndrome should be toned down. I don't know if its me being slow so I could be wrong (others have said this however) but the terrible terrible damage is so high in SC 2 that battles feel like they are won in a second. Therefore the only main things that determine battles are simply the units you chose to bring (the person with the most counters wins). But if somehow battles were longer there would be ample room for more strategy within the major battles.
Lastly some of the attacks and animations could be cooler. E.g. Colossus lasers = boring. Scarab bombs and spider mines = fun. All three do great damage but you can really see when a scarab bomb or spider mine goes off and which units got hit, therefore the whole time they are traveling you are excited to see when it lands. Colossus lasers are just a sign that "damage is being done" not really nice to watch.
Tl;dr: The protoss harass unit and lurker (hopefully) are a GREAT start!
|
I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, I would just personally love to see the unit supply cap get raised, even if it was just to 250/250.
with terran army units so versatile, it's sometimes tough to build a comparable and diverse force when you need at least 4-5 different units just to deal with a goddamn MMM bio ball...
also I feel with a higher supply cap, harassment would become more viable as protoss. as maintaining that late game critical mass of units would be easier to manage, as well as keep a few supply on the side for harassment.
I still feel that zerg has it the worst, how many times have you just simply maxed on roach/ling/bling to stay alive, only to have some some tech switch from terran/protoss completely screw you over?
tl;dr Raise supply cap!
|
harass unit, yessss!!!!
I'm tired of zerglings run-by, mutas, baneling bombs and terran drops, blue flame helions, cloak banshes.
I wonder what a player like MC can do with a harass unit ;D
|
I'd love for protoss to get a harassment unit, that would really vary the protoss strategy without really breaking the game, and zergs do really need something like the lurker, so seeing that Blizzard is on the same page makes me really glad.
|
On August 02 2011 21:28 L0thar wrote:
Damn, seems like no nice stuff for Terran, just something marginal so the players couldn't complain (that much). Really dissapointed by that approach. Oh well, seems like I'll do without HotS after all.
I don't necessarily want a new unit, but a new mechanic would be sweet. Consider how awesome and revolutionary warp-in is. What did Terrans get in that regard since BW? Nothing. Also some proper offensive spellcaster would be nice, ghost is mostly (2 in 3 matchups) defensive unit (to EMP enemy spellcasters) and that Raven's mine is a joke.
I'm not saying Protoss or Zerg are less incomplete, but if they consider Terran pretty much done, they have an awfully low standards for completeness.
Your raven and reaper will changed. Really those are the only two units not really seen in competitive play that often (the raven is getting more popular though). That's pretty complete in my opinion. Do you know how many units the Protoss and Zerg have that feel incomplete? Mothership, Carrier. Corrupter, Ultralisk, Baneling (they did not replace the lurker) etc.
|
A protoss harass unit would be so great, especially vs. terran. I only hope it won't be a tier 3 unit, that requires 250 gas....
|
My wishlist:
Zerg:
- Upgrades for the Hydralisk: Speed Upgrade, health upgrade. Would also like to see an added ability, like stalkers have blink and marines/marauders have stim, hydralisk should have an ability to make them worth it late game. Like every spine shot should create a big carnivorous plant that would swallow marines. Or maybe not.
- Map control unit: Of course the lurker come to mind, it could be a nice addition, but I am not into this BW nostalgia. I really wish Blizzzard use their creativity to come up with something new and nice.
- Spore-crawler on top of an ultralisk:This is somewhat silly, but I would like to see an ability for ultralisk to "mount" spore crawlers on them to attack air and have detection. How badass would that be.
- Blairling: An air version of the banelings ? How cute would banelings look with little wings on their side, ahhhh. Seriously, it would be nice to see them exploding in the air and the falling acid could hurt what is underneath.
I'll think about the other races and post it later.
|
Lurkers and reavers please! It'll be almost as BW 2.
|
- Blairling: An air version of the banelings ? How cute would banelings look with little wings on their side, ahhhh. Seriously, it would be nice to see them exploding in the air and the falling acid could hurt what is underneath.
We call dem scourges round these parts! :p
|
Players are giving us their money... we have to give them something cool
Uh oh
|
On August 02 2011 22:00 Anachromy wrote:
I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, I would just personally love to see the unit supply cap get raised, even if it was just to 250/250.
with terran army units so versatile, it's sometimes tough to build a comparable and diverse force when you need at least 4-5 different units just to deal with a goddamn MMM bio ball...
also I feel with a higher supply cap, harassment would become more viable as protoss. as maintaining that late game critical mass of units would be easier to manage, as well as keep a few supply on the side for harassment.
I still feel that zerg has it the worst, how many times have you just simply maxed on roach/ling/bling to stay alive, only to have some some tech switch from terran/protoss completely screw you over?
tl;dr Raise supply cap!
I would really like to see Blizzard at least experiment with a higher unit supply cap. It's a change that obviously has the potential to completely unbalance lategame, so I'm not sure if it's possible without being compensated for in other ways, but playing SC2 I always feel like my army caps out a bit too early.
It would be really cool if such a change worked well from a balance standpoint and did in fact allow for more lategame harassment as toss. The question is whether you can get a supply cap at which lategame armies start to suffer from diminishing returns sufficiently that having an extra 20 supply in a fight doesn't mean an autowin. Otherwise you're just increasing the size of the Protoss deathball by 7 Colossi O.o
|
On August 02 2011 22:27 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
It would be really cool if such a change worked well from a balance standpoint and did in fact allow for more lategame harassment as toss. The question is whether you can get a supply cap at which lategame armies start to suffer from diminishing returns sufficiently that having an extra 20 supply in a fight doesn't mean an autowin. Otherwise you're just increasing the size of the Protoss deathball by 7 Colossi O.o
See the important thing is that (I'm assuming we're talking about ZvP) it takes longer for the Protoss to reach the max army, and also for the Zerg, so if a Z player is better he can still have a supply lead for longer.
|
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown
|
I'd be happy if protoss get's a proper harass unit.
|
I totally agree with the decision to give Protoss a harass unit, though I am a Terran/Zerg player. Terran has, as he said, a huge amount of harass options: reaper, marine drop, BF hellion, banshee, vikings, auto-turrets, and maybe could include bunker rush vs. zerg. All of these require relatively little micro. Zerg have ling run-bys, baneling drops, nydus worms, mutas of course, infestors(burrowed, dropped, cliff-abusing, you name it), and more. Also require relatively low micro (depending on how fancy you want to get of course)
Protoss early harass unit is the Phoenix, which requires a conscious action per worker, and is completely shut down by any static defense (unlike these other methods that can deal with small amounts of static D no problemo) Also, the DT. Warp Prism/Immortal harass is interesting and perhaps a bit unexplored, but with the fragility of the WP and expense of Protoss units, it's unlikely that it will ever be more than a gimmick. I wouldn't call void rays a harassment unit. You invest so much in a single one, and while they do huge damage output, it takes a while to get there, and they suck at killing workers.
|
I don't think late game harass is a problem for any race. DTs and zealots do incredible DPS in small numbers. Zerg has mutas, burrowed infestors, and lings.
The problem is early game harass--Terran has banshees, hellions, reapers. The other two races just...sit in their base. Since zerg's tech tree is the slowest, it might be nice for them to have a cliff jumping T1 unit. Maybe let Toss build the warp prism from their nexus so they can get it out earlier? Would that be too much?
|
Hopefully the Toss harass unit isn't based on the reaver, but worse because they are trying to be different instead of just re-implementing something that isn't broken. Just like they replaced the lurker with inferior banelings.
|
As a random player, I'm looking forward to a Protoss harass unit!
|
On August 02 2011 22:34 NASAmoose wrote:
I totally agree with the decision to give Protoss a harass unit, though I am a Terran/Zerg player. Terran has, as he said, a huge amount of harass options: reaper, marine drop, BF hellion, banshee, vikings, auto-turrets, and maybe could include bunker rush vs. zerg. All of these require relatively little micro. Zerg have ling run-bys, baneling drops, nydus worms, mutas of course, infestors(burrowed, dropped, cliff-abusing, you name it), and more. Also require relatively low micro (depending on how fancy you want to get of course)
Protoss early harass unit is the Phoenix, which requires a conscious action per worker, and is completely shut down by any static defense (unlike these other methods that can deal with small amounts of static D no problemo) Also, the DT. Warp Prism/Immortal harass is interesting and perhaps a bit unexplored, but with the fragility of the WP and expense of Protoss units, it's unlikely that it will ever be more than a gimmick. I wouldn't call void rays a harassment unit. You invest so much in a single one, and while they do huge damage output, it takes a while to get there, and they suck at killing workers.
Don't mean to seem snide/whiney etc, But cmon man. If you are including bunker rush for terran include cannon for protoss (not used as much but still not uncommon).
Also BF hellions/banshee require lots of micro, vikings suck at harrass except verse overlords.
Ling run buys don't count as "harras". I would count them more as a counter attacking option. At no stage in the game is a protoss going to have a ling run by and be like WOW this zerg has good harrasment options. Banelingdrops/nydurs/mutas i agree with. Infestors are awesome on some maps (third on caverns anyone?).
Protoss have blink stalkers aswell. And the voidray usually is built to deny the zergs third! Which it does extremely well in some circumstances. so in that regard it is built as harrasment. Phoenix are harrasment units, i don't know why people do not consider them to be. They might not be as powerful verse terran though.
|
I'm ok with Lurkers and a harass unit for protoss. However they MUST nerf the mule, terran can cheese way to easily with it.
|
Zerg getting more units, horrah horrrah!!
|
So happy that they're thinking about getting rid of corruptors and overseers. Very boring units that could be done much better.
|
On August 02 2011 22:41 Sina92 wrote:
I'm ok with Lurkers and a harass unit for protoss. However they MUST nerf the mule, terran can cheese way to easily with it.
Wouldn't you consider a supply drop more powerful? Without mules terran can't keep up econmoically due to chronoboost/injects.
|
Hopefully these new Z and P units will be T1 or T2. Since the first 10:00 is the portion of the game we have to watch and play through the most, it would be nice to have more variety added to it.
|
As someone who plays random in masters, I feel I can be pretty unbiased on this sort of thing, and it makes me happy to see that blizzard are looking at almost everything that is currently a problem:
Protoss have no harass (yeah DTs can harass, yeah phoenix can harass, but take considerable tech and investment, which can be countered by building 1 or 2 cannons in your mineral line or spine+spore etc, you get the idea).
Zerg have no scary defence unit bar burrowed banelings, which, as a result of having no ranged attack and being "one off" become near useless with an obs, a few orbitals/raven or an overseer), so have no effective way of turtling like toss and (especially) terran whilst they get on their feet that doesn't sacrifice 10 drones in static defence, leaving them with little offence and little economy.
Terran is SO versatile. Nail on the head by dustin browder right there, the man is switched on. They arent unbalanced (or at least not by a lot if they are), but they can do everything so much more easily. Their natural army comps are already ridiculously good harass: If you go MMM then you have drops accessible at little sacrifice, if you go mech you have blue flame helions (which, whilst yes they have solutions, they are incredibly powerful if you react even a second too late cos youre microing and you can lose a whole probe/drone/scv line in 3-4 seconds). Anything anyone does can be easily countered by terran to a considerably greater extent than other races. If someone goes collossi, I go vikings (best counter in the game to collossi), if someone goes roaches, I go marauders (best early game response to roaches in the game), they naturally have anti air and detection within about 4 minutes of the game so shouldnt lose to cloak rushes or air rushes, they have EMP to nail all casters and (perhaps the only thing I have OP complaints about) absolutely ruin all things protoss requiring little skill. Mobile scan, recyclable bunkers allowing easy expand, not to mention tanks...they really dont need much attention in terms of help, they just need something to please the fans.
Blizzard you have my faith.
|
On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
You left out the science vessel, you are true zerg.
Actually, speaking of science vessels, it'd be nice if raven hunter seekers could be removed and irradiate put in. Irradiate's not a bad spell; it's not a coinflip spell like HSM and it wouldn't do as much damage as HSM on clumps of stuff because zerg gets time to split their units.
|
On August 02 2011 22:31 lolsixtynine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:27 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
It would be really cool if such a change worked well from a balance standpoint and did in fact allow for more lategame harassment as toss. The question is whether you can get a supply cap at which lategame armies start to suffer from diminishing returns sufficiently that having an extra 20 supply in a fight doesn't mean an autowin. Otherwise you're just increasing the size of the Protoss deathball by 7 Colossi O.o See the important thing is that (I'm assuming we're talking about ZvP) it takes longer for the Protoss to reach the max army, and also for the Zerg, so if a Z player is better he can still have a supply lead for longer.
That's an interesting point. I wasn't talking about PvZ specifically, but just about the advantage the previous poster was positing for having an increased unit cap. The only reason it's not as effective (not 'completely ineffective', just less effective than I understand to be the case in BW) to have a few supply off harassing currently is that dividing your army weakens it substantially relative to an army that sticks together. If you increase the food cap beyond the point where diminishing returns make that extra 10 food less cost effective in the army than harassing, then you could start seeing more harassment and divided-up armies with skirmishes taking place in multiple locations.
The point you bring up actually scares me a bit, though. I don't think I want to spend that long with Z at a large supply advantage...
|
In BW, Zerg had to be worried about Sair/Zealot, Sair/reaver, Sair/DT, HT drops, DT drops and everything. In SC2, Zerg has to worry about air and DTs, so they make spores and continue droning. If Protoss had a reaver, could zerg still drone like Nestea? Hmm...
|
They definitly should bring back something like that reaver vs reaver PvP. Good times. Also give terran back mines. Make mech a more viable option for T! I hope they scrap or change the Immortal too for that reason.
|
On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown
Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line.
Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing.
|
On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing.
Yea,but you could scout the shuttle coming in and behind you mineral line.Colossus cliff walking and one shotting workers would be just bad map design.
For example the good old http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Kulas_Ravine
|
On August 02 2011 23:13 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing. Yea,but you could scout the shuttle coming in and behind you mineral line.Colossus cliff walking and one shotting workers would be just bad map design.
As I remember their reason was that Colossi melted low health units too quickly (like the hydra), so the enemy did not have the chance to deal damage back.
|
On August 02 2011 23:22 Jurassic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:13 TheKefka wrote:On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing. Yea,but you could scout the shuttle coming in and behind you mineral line.Colossus cliff walking and one shotting workers would be just bad map design. As I remember their reason was that Colossi melted low health units too quickly (like the hydra), so the enemy did not have the chance to deal damage back.
That's not my point.My point was that with a effective harass unit,if you get into the mineral line you should be almost guaranteed to do some heavy damage,if your enemy fails to react.
So there's nothing bad about units that one shot things and have a very slow attack speed and movement.
The problem with the colossus was that it was too mobile on his own,so it was a moving sieged tank.
I'm a protoss and i hate the colossus from the bottom of my hear.I almost never make that unit.I would be the happiest person in the world if they take it away and give us something like the reaver or just buff the gateway units overall.
|
I don't play P all that much, are Phoenix and DTs used in standard army comps now and not used for harassing anymore?
I'll only accept a zerg siege unit if it's a blatent rip off of the bug siege things from starship troopers that are essentially sporecrawlers, but they rip battlecruisers in half in 1 shot. ya.... :D
|
On August 02 2011 23:26 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:22 Jurassic wrote:On August 02 2011 23:13 TheKefka wrote:On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing. Yea,but you could scout the shuttle coming in and behind you mineral line.Colossus cliff walking and one shotting workers would be just bad map design. As I remember their reason was that Colossi melted low health units too quickly (like the hydra), so the enemy did not have the chance to deal damage back. That's not my point.My point was that with a effective harass unit,if you get into the mineral line you should be almost guaranteed to do some heavy damage,if your enemy fails to react. So there's nothing bad about units that one shot things and have a very slow attack speed and movement. The problem with the colossus was that it was too mobile on his own,so it was a moving sieged tank. I'm a protoss and i hate the colossus from the bottom of my hear.I almost never make that unit.I would be the happiest person in the world if they take it away and give us something like the reaver or just buff the gateway units overall.
I agree, I just responded to "bring back old Colossus damage". It wouldn't work.
|
On August 02 2011 23:28 CidO wrote:
I'll only accept a zerg siege unit if it's a blatent rip off of the bug siege things from starship troopers that are essentially sporecrawlers
well given that the starship troopers bugs are a rip-off the original starcraft zerg that might make the cycle complete.
|
On August 02 2011 23:36 okrane wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:28 CidO wrote:
I'll only accept a zerg siege unit if it's a blatent rip off of the bug siege things from starship troopers that are essentially sporecrawlers well given that the starship troopers bugs are a rip-off the original starcraft zerg that might make the cycle complete.
Check the publication date of the book and the games?
|
On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing.
No offense, but there is just no way that THIS could be a reason.
What about a flock of mutas/banshees? What about a bunch of blue flame hellions? (lol..) What about baneling-bombs? What about even a simple dropship full of marines with stim? List goes on...
In all these cases workers WILL die if I don't react quickly. And rightly so. Since the amount of colossi that fit into one prism is actually quite limited (again: lol...) I don't see any problem here. If my opponent has one unit that can hit air, it can hit both the prism and the colossus "for free", meaning without taking damage, so I will lose these units with 100% certainty.
Compare this to double medivac drop, even if I spot it in time, marine/marauder/medivac still fights insanely cost-effective vs anything that's supposed to "clean up" the drop. The only real counter to medivac drops are HTs, and even then the medivac has to have enough energy on it to explode.
I realize we are on the "same side" here, but I think you are a little bit too soft on our enemies here They actually do have the ability to clear mineral-lines in seconds, so I don't see a problem if we had the same. Especially if its a high-tier unit and especially since the warpprism is made of paper and uses valuable robo-production-time and doesn't serve another purpose (like medivac-heal which is awsome in itself)
|
Lurker.. please please please please please please please.
I don't see it happening, blizzard says they aren't ashamed to put it in, I'm afraid they are tho. Also hydra speed upgrade would be great. (Or any change to the hydra. If lurkers come with the current hydra (unlikely), they will just be used purely for lurkers...)
|
On August 03 2011 00:00 sleepingdog wrote:
No offense, but there is just no way that THIS could be a reason.
It wasn't, AFAIK. It was because Blizz was worried about PvZ, with Colossi clearing out all Hydras in seconds, they thought Hydras would be useless in that match-up, ironically enough.
On August 03 2011 00:00 sleepingdog wrote:What about a flock of mutas/banshees? What about a bunch of blue flame hellions? (lol..) What about baneling-bombs? What about even a simple dropship full of marines with stim? List goes on... In all these cases workers WILL die if I don't react quickly. And rightly so. Since the amount of colossi that fit into one prism is actually quite limited (again: lol...) I don't see any problem here. If my opponent has one unit that can hit air, it can hit both the prism and the colossus "for free", meaning without taking damage, so I will lose these units with 100% certainty. Compare this to double medivac drop, even if I spot it in time, marine/marauder/medivac still fights insanely cost-effective vs anything that's supposed to "clean up" the drop. The only real counter to medivac drops are HTs, and even then the medivac has to have enough energy on it to explode. I realize we are on the "same side" here, but I think you are a little bit too soft on our enemies here They actually do have the ability to clear mineral-lines in seconds, so I don't see a problem if we had the same. Especially if its a high-tier unit and especially since the warpprism is made of paper and uses valuable robo-production-time and doesn't serve another purpose (like medivac-heal which is awsome in itself)
Improving Colossi/the Warp Prism is not the solution, as Zerg will still only have to spam Spore Crawlers to survive.
|
On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
This is the most hilarious post on TL to date.
|
To all the people saying "remove baneling and give lurkers" or "baneling fulfills lurker role", it really doesn't. Lurker is essentially a cloaked unit when burrowed, and using infested terrans is too wishy washy for what you want to do. Lurker and baneling are different enough to warrant the existance of both.
|
On August 03 2011 00:07 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 00:00 sleepingdog wrote:
No offense, but there is just no way that THIS could be a reason. It wasn't, AFAIK. It was because Blizz was worried about PvZ, with Colossi clearing out all Hydras in seconds, they thought Hydras would be useless in that match-up, ironically enough.
I didn't play beta, so this is actually hilarious to me right now haha
Improving Colossi/the Warp Prism is not the solution, as Zerg will still only have to spam Spore Crawlers to survive.
I agree. My post was simply to state that I strongly disagree that toss shouldn't have an effective (!) harassment-unit since the other races also have access to units that clear out mineral-lines in split-seconds. Blue-flame hellions and baneling-drops especially. Unspotted, they do insane damage - and rightly so.
|
On August 02 2011 22:58 Micket wrote:
In BW, Zerg had to be worried about Sair/Zealot, Sair/reaver, Sair/DT, HT drops, DT drops and everything. In SC2, Zerg has to worry about air and DTs, so they make spores and continue droning. If Protoss had a reaver, could zerg still drone like Nestea? Hmm...
Uhmmm, that's not all zerg has to worry about lol
|
On August 02 2011 23:28 CidO wrote:
I don't play P all that much, are Phoenix and DTs used in standard army comps now and not used for harassing anymore?
I'll only accept a zerg siege unit if it's a blatent rip off of the bug siege things from starship troopers that are essentially sporecrawlers, but they rip battlecruisers in half in 1 shot. ya.... :D
To answer the first part zerg are getting better at building spore crawlers so DT and phoenix harassment isn't as effective as it used to be.
|
As a protoss please make Zerg more "swarmy". Like seriously fix the Roach. It should be 1 supply and weaker instead of the fucking beast unit it is now. IMO ofc
Edit: Also make it so that P can harass with a unit that isn't countered by 1 building, early-mid game. The Colossi could also use a change (maybe a red laser coming from it that does no damage like the HSM for a few seconds and then if fires with higher dam and lower attack speed) ,the same goes for the Raven, Corrupter, Hellion, Marauder and the Roach as I said above.
|
A very interesting interview, that gave me a different outlook to say the least. I don't think they are entirely in the right direction but even DB echoed some of the things I said, that there are a lot of design flaws, not just balance flaws... I also like HOTS will be more tweaks than anything else. I know it makes it less value but it's for the best.
|
Glad to see they've recognized that some of the units in this game are pretty boring and are trying to introduce/change them to make them more dynamic. While balance is important, having a fun game is important too.
|
On August 02 2011 12:04 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:55 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I wonder how the Terran players feel about maybe not getting a new unit in Hots... I for one am excited to see some new Swarm additions :D I can't imagine them NOT adding a new unit for Terran, that would just be unfair to 1/3 of the people who play this game. .
well, DB made himself very clear about what is fair and what not.
my guess is, that terrans will lose one unit, that gets replaced with a fancy unit. but what they wont tell is that the fancy unit has more downsides, than the replaced unit.
maybe they are not replacing, but visually updating some existing unit.
example:
"we are proud to introduce fundamental changes to the raven. it has some new tech that makes it invulnerable for quiet a while, offering better detection in order to use less scans. needless to say, that this tech is so heavy, that they cant fly anymore and are groundunits only now."
as a zerg i always felt bored about corruptors and overseers. all in all those are really good news here. corruptors are the most useless unit, once there is no more slow air unit around.
|
On August 02 2011 12:22 megapants wrote:...TL;DR: Terran's ability to tech while utilizing their transitional tech building is too versatile in relation to the other races. Protoss needs to invest in quite a lot for one-dimensional play, as well as not getting to utilize many of their tech structures past the point of one upgrade. Zerg needs a better mid-game unit, which can be most easily morphed from the Roach, as well as a strong spellcasting late-game unit like the Defiler.
That's my input. Thanks again for the info!
I appreciate how much effort you put into this post, but I'm going to have to completely disagree with you because you are flat out wrong. Simply because terrans have 3 types of production buildings that can swap add ons does not translate into the sweeping tech switches you seem to claim.
Yes, terran units are efficient and versatile, but production flexibility is definitely NOT one of their strengths. Terrans are not able to switch between bio -> mech -> air in any order or combination.
TvP's current state makes mech play almost unusable and even if you do, you cannot switch into bio or vice versa. The investment into mech is too great you either win or lose with it. With bio first you cannot transition into mech due to mech's need for critical mass and investment already put into bio. This leaves terrans vulnerable at that key midgame where they have neither enough bio or mech to push out and maintain an equal footing. Mech has its list of problems, but lets avoid that discussion for now. Terran air compositions is gimmicky cheese at best. While we can switch between getting a raven or banshee into reactored medivacs or vikings I would hardly call that as too versatile.
The flexible unit composition prize goes to the Zerg, by a wide wide margin. All their production is derived from the hatch / larva requiring only the particular tech building for production. In no way is this imbalanced or whatever, but it's simply an aspect of the game I don't want you confusing yourself on.
|
to be completely honest i dont care if some of the units are boring.
this is starcraft, not warcraft; not every unit needs an ability.
Look at BW with the dragoon and hydra, they didnt have an ability and that didnt diminish gameplay at all.
I do have a problem with blue flame hellions though. Not just because i play protoss and think they can be terribly rewarding for almost no investment, but the upgrade is just really shallow compared to spider mines.
the micro and attention needed to handle hellions changes nothing with the upgrade. compared to spider mines, you can actually use the vulture differently post upgrade (like making them cost effective vs dragoons and sieged tanks).
|
On August 02 2011 17:39 tuestresfat wrote:
wow that was a sick read, i agree with a ton of things he said. thank god he's the one behind the balancing desk and not the tl community ^^
lol, quoted for the truth. It seems half the people here want BW 2.0 and the other half wants the game grossly imbalanced in their race's favor. This thread reads like how I suppose fan-fiction would.
Overall though, I like the direction Blizzard seems to be heading. I agree that while Terrans are largely complete I would love tweaks across the board. Something to tweak hellions / thors ... well basically mech viability and Terran GtA. Hellions punish way too heavily, just watch MLG if that the future you envisioned for TvT?
Though it's obvious the other races need more of a shakeup.
|
I'm pretty sure if they didn't add any new terr units that for each T player that wouldn't buy the expansion, zerg players would buy 2 lol!
On a more serious note: As a Z player, I just want a unit that forces my enemy to take another lane to my base. P has forcefields, T has tanks, I have nothing aside from the hit-or-miss blingbombs along the way. I want to control space too. Gief lurker. I don't care if it has to morph from the roach, just gief.
I think he is spot on with the overseer and corruptor being meh-ish in terms of gameplay. They are just counters. Nothing more. They add no new possibilities to the Z arsenal.
They should really think about adding new upgrades to already existing units that change their functions or gameplay if they don't want to add many new units.
Also: deal with the hydra. Currently their only role is to counter mass gateway units, but besides that they are obsolete.
|
As much as I love playing zerg I find a lot of their units to be pretty uninteresting:
roaches are just meat shields: w/o burrow+tunneling claw they are just a pretty straight forward 1a unit. It is not like a marauder that can stim and slow, or a stalker that can blink around.
Remember the acid spore debuff from devourers? What if roaches gain something like that (but a weaker version)?
|
Oddly enough, my zergy wishlist doesn't require lurkers or scourges. (Don't get me wrong, though, I'd LOVE to have them back)
1) 10sec deduction on the Spine Crawler's build time to match a Photon Cannon. Sure a crawler can be repositioned, but it does not detect or shoot air. There's also the drone and lost mining time.
2) Overseer upgrade, please reduce to 50/50. 100 gas at lair tech is very hard to swallow when you've got so many upgrades to do at this stage - roach, baneling, and ovie speed, infestor tech (and energy upgrade).
If the reaver makes a comeback, I'll pick up another account just to play Protoss.
Terran changes? No clue.
I'm just another rambling diamond newb, though.
|
The interview gives me a lot of hope and I am happy they are willing to say: This race looks pretty good right now. Its great they are willing to call out units and say that might get big changes. I loved that they called out the immortal and said - They are crappy tanks(for the price), but people love that burst damage. Also corruptor is a sad unit, even we protoss players think so.
I also want to see what they add to battle.net. Personally, I would like to be able to show my love of e-sports in the game. Even if it was as simple as a badge on my Nexus that said I was a fan of TL, EG or IM. Hell, if I could pay those teams through B.net(like in LoL with skins), that would be even better.
|
On August 03 2011 02:38 Hikari wrote:
As much as I love playing zerg I find a lot of their units to be pretty uninteresting:
roaches are just meat shields: w/o burrow+tunneling claw they are just a pretty straight forward 1a unit. It is not like a marauder that can stim and slow, or a stalker that can blink around.
Remember the acid spore debuff from devourers? What if roaches gain something like that (but a weaker version)?
Funny story. Did you know that stim, slow, and blink are all upgrades too? They come at different times, but before the upgrades come in, they are all pretty straightforward.
|
Canada1123 Posts
On August 02 2011 11:10 whatthefat wrote:It's an interesting interview, and as others said in the closed thread it shows that the Blizzard team has a better understanding of the game than they are reputed to have. Nonetheless, I have to take issue with this comment: Show nested quote +We're not ashamed of putting [the Lurkers] back in. I'm sure they're pretty high on the community request list. They are pretty mighty, since they offer two things to the overall Zerg strategy: the ability to attack while cloaked and the ability to push into a tier-two building. We may have different solutions other than the Lurker, but we're still working on it. In my opinion, the main purpose of the Lurker is neither of the above. Rather, it is the ability to zone the map (in the same way that siege tanks can). That ability, which is currently achieved somewhat clumsily by mass spine crawlers, would add a lot of tactical possibilities, as it did in Broodwar. Burrowed banelings don't quite work the same way due to their lack of ranged attack. It doesn't necessarily have to be the Lurker, but I would be interested to see a unit that fills that role.
Sorry, I just read this and have to react.
The Zerg currently have (to some extent) a zoning tool. And that is creep. The fact is Terrans and Toss don't want to go onto creep because all Zerg units get so much scarier on creep and that effectively zones them out.
It isn't as hard a contain as tanks put down but then again toss doesn't have much except voids (which are worse than mutas for it) or dts (which ends as soon as detection comes out).
I would really like to see something more on the creep mechanic. The overlord creep drop is currently underused and tumors could be spread better (except that one Bel'Shir Beach game by ... whoever that was a couple weeks ago in GSTL I believe, someone link that please). Now I am not sure how to set that up. The biggest issue with creep is that most ideas I think of to enhance it would be obscene at stopping expands while being fine for zoning purposes ...
Maybe a Lair upgrade to have Zergs automatically detect and have vision on creep ? The detect would be late enough to allow some dt rushes still and the vision would only really matter when an OL or tumor gets destroyed while the creep recedes.
Alternatively if Nydus gets removed (speaking of lame and underused) they could add some Zerg unit (or give to Hydras) the ability to teleport to a creep location while burrowed with say a 2 second animation. So the hydras are burrowed and you do their "underground blink" to a creep area and they appear there 2 seconds later. It couldn't be used like blink micro with that animation but it would make overlord and creep control of paramount importance to Toss and Terran. Obviously there would need to be some distinction of ally and enemy creep or that becomes stupid ZvZ. Note that I said hydra but it could be some new unit. It would effectively give Zergs an equivalent of cliff abuse (toss have blink and colossi, Terrans have reapers and the best drop).
I believe creep could be used as part of the zoning and be more interesting from a tactical perspective than a tank/lurker unit which just sits there and shoots.
|
Did you seriously just compare creep to siege tanks? My entire response was just derailed by reading that.
Did you
Seriously
Just compare Creep..
To Siege Tanks...
Also, Sixes, Zerg does have vision where creep is. No need to "upgrade" it to do something it already does.
|
Canada1123 Posts
On August 03 2011 00:44 Zuxo wrote:As a protoss please make Zerg more "swarmy". Like seriously fix the Roach. It should be 1 supply and weaker instead of the fucking beast unit it is now. IMO ofc Edit: Also make it so that P can harass with a unit that isn't countered by 1 building, early-mid game. The Colossi could also use a change (maybe a red laser coming from it that does no damage like the HSM for a few seconds and then if fires with higher dam and lower attack speed) ,the same goes for the Raven, Corrupter, Hellion, Marauder and the Roach as I said above.
The big issue with making Zerg "Swarmy" is that it makes Zerg more and more vulnerable to splash damage and choke points.
Let's make a quick list of units Zerg complained about: tanks, thors, colossi, forcefields ... they all annihilate swarms.
Now I agree that Zergs need to be more swarmy but then you can't have solutions that are as simple as 3 forcefields on a choke or "I sieged 3 tanks" or "I have a couple thors, bye bye 15 mutas". The reason why Zerg players don't use 150 lings to destroy things is really map architecture. Take Shakuras for example. No way you can get a surround unless a Terra/Toss is sitting right on your front door because the whole map is a hallway with less width than tank range.
A swarm is cool but if the units just block each other and get mowed down like the Zerg from the WoL campaign, people won't play that way.
|
creep is pretty easily dealt with, imo. it takes way more actions to lay tumors and spread creep than it does to kill it. Have you ever sceen how many tumors you can kill with 1 scan? It's kind of ridiculous. Toss also can shark around with an observer and knock out a bunch, usually without fear of being attacked, because the zerg should be only be in the process of making units once they see the sharking--otherwise, the toss should be able to defend itself as they normally would.
|
^See that is an educated opinion on creep^
Yes, creep wins fights. And it's a hell of a sexy way to have map control. But while it does boost the potential of Zerg it sure as hell never wins the fight alone. Siege tanks on the other hand.. lol
|
Dear Mr. Browder, there's a way to nerf Terran without making a unit useless. Make marine 40 hp, keep their 55 after combat shield et voilà, you've slightly nerfed all of the early pushes without making the unit useless or anything. Or make the switchup of the add-ons need something like 5-10 secs. Again, you nerf all those annoying timing pushes while keeping all the rest basically unchanged. Just two random ideas.
On the Lurker imho it need to evolve from the roach. It just make too much sense. Their aspect is similar, they both shot only ground and they are both good undeground. Hydra was good when the only other option was the ling, but now roach feel the bill better.
As for the boring units...
Terran feel pretty much perfect, but i'd toy a little with Hellion and Reapers. A bit too overlapping in roles. Fast scout + worker killers. Maybe make hellion do more to biological instead of light? Give mines to reapers? Dunno.
Zerg has a shitload of boring units. Overseer are stupid. Corruptors are super one-dimensional with an even more one-dimensional ability (Scourge is just so perfect for zerg, bring it back). Roaches are a bit boring, but if they could morph into Lurkers they'd feel so much more interesting. And Ultras really need to move Zergling aside automatically when they move. It look so stupid to see ultras wandering behind a line of Zerglings.
Protoss have Mothership that's terrible, then dunno . If there's a thing i don't like from protoss is the fact that almost all ground units have the same speed. Make the balls so much worse to see, especially with Colossi over everything else.
|
Canada1123 Posts
On August 03 2011 03:39 Probe1 wrote:
Did you seriously just compare creep to siege tanks? My entire response was just derailed by reading that.
Did you
Seriously
Just compare Creep..
To Siege Tanks...
Also, Sixes, Zerg does have vision where creep is. No need to "upgrade" it to do something it already does.
I meant vision on creep regardless of the overlord or tumor still being there. A Terran/Toss can do a quick advance killing tumors and end up on creep that you don't have vision on.
And a massive ling surround on creep can be extremely destructive and is effectively a zoning tool. I never claimed it was as effective as tanks. Quite frankly I think tanks should be taken out of the bleeding game just like hydras but they are iconic of BW and consequently are kept. Anything that has a tactical description that reads "if it's there you can't ever attack cost effectively" seems rather silly.
I would like to see something that makes creep more resilient and a better zoning tool, now how to do that is up for debate, I just see it as an existing foundation that seems like it could be expanded upon. It is also much more interesting than just adding a unit like the siege tank/lurker/colossus which just sits there and does obscene damage without any micro or control required.
Creep requires consistent spreading and has a very high skill (or APM I guess) cap.
Instead of a siege unit I'd prefer a zergling "leap" (as they seem to have added to the single player) which could actually get the swarm into combat. now if that leap had range 6 off creep and range 12 on creep, you have a crazy zoning tool that would make opponents very careful about attacking on creep. If the leap just allowed to skip cliffs in the downwards direction it could be a lot of fun (so lings can't jump up into main bases but they can swarm down onto lower ones or out of a base after a drop or they can swarm an army from a cliff-top).
Come to think of it there is also no way to reduce larvae cost ... what about an upgrade (at Hive?) to make lings be 100 minerals for 4 from 1 larvae? This would make them a much more valid late game unit.
Anyways, I'm just throwing out ideas which don't involve drastic overhauls or porting in a BW unit while hopefully feeling swarmy (and avoiding the downsides of chokes and splash to some extent).
|
You know that's actually a pretty damn good idea. Lore wise it's all fucked but .. well you could say that about SC2 in general ^_^
For a very long time I've thought that if they were to add in the lurker it would be completely screwed up. You can't build the tech structure until Lair.. Then you build the structure, make the units and evolve lurker aspect all at the same time? .. nah
But Lurker from Roach actually sounds like the perfect solution Gheizen.
Edit: Sixes I have no response that isn't a flame on your knowledge of playing starcraft so let me say I completely disagree with either what you're saying or how your saying it. However I would rather remain silent on then fight about something where nothing is to gain.
|
Canada1123 Posts
On August 03 2011 03:42 Probe1 wrote:
^See that is an educated opinion on creep^
Yes, creep wins fights. And it's a hell of a sexy way to have map control. But while it does boost the potential of Zerg it sure as hell never wins the fight alone. Siege tanks on the other hand.. lol
Yes I did mention making creep more resilient. The issue with that is how to make creep not recede or be destroyed as fast while avoiding huge problems where the Zerg just gooped up the 3rd and it can't be taken for 10 minutes.
|
On August 03 2011 03:54 Probe1 wrote:
You know that's actually a pretty damn good idea. Lore wise it's all fucked but .. well you could say that about SC2 in general ^_^
For a very long time I've thought that if they were to add in the lurker it would be completely screwed up. You can't build the tech structure until Lair.. Then you build the structure, make the units and evolve lurker aspect all at the same time? .. nah
But Lurker from Roach actually sounds like the perfect solution Gheizen.
Edit: Sixes I have no response that isn't a flame on your knowledge of playing starcraft so let me say I completely disagree with either what you're saying or how your saying it. However I would rather remain silent on then fight about something where nothing is to gain.
And when that happens, lore fans will cry rivers saying that roaches mutating into lurkers ruins sc2 and demand a reverse change or swap roaches and hydras to respect the lore. =\
My problem is protoss getting a harass unit. First Blizz kills the reaper and then is going to give one to toss, which assuming is as good as the reaper, will keep terran in their base. Terran loses their early game advantage and the 15 minute mark is easily reached, after which we all know what happens.
|
On August 02 2011 11:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:
4) zerg may get a siege unit (not necessarily the lurker, but a similar role)
Make it happen Dustin. Make...it....HAPPEN!
|
On August 02 2011 22:27 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:00 Anachromy wrote:
I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, I would just personally love to see the unit supply cap get raised, even if it was just to 250/250.
with terran army units so versatile, it's sometimes tough to build a comparable and diverse force when you need at least 4-5 different units just to deal with a goddamn MMM bio ball...
also I feel with a higher supply cap, harassment would become more viable as protoss. as maintaining that late game critical mass of units would be easier to manage, as well as keep a few supply on the side for harassment.
I still feel that zerg has it the worst, how many times have you just simply maxed on roach/ling/bling to stay alive, only to have some some tech switch from terran/protoss completely screw you over?
tl;dr Raise supply cap! I would really like to see Blizzard at least experiment with a higher unit supply cap. It's a change that obviously has the potential to completely unbalance lategame, so I'm not sure if it's possible without being compensated for in other ways, but playing SC2 I always feel like my army caps out a bit too early. It would be really cool if such a change worked well from a balance standpoint and did in fact allow for more lategame harassment as toss. The question is whether you can get a supply cap at which lategame armies start to suffer from diminishing returns sufficiently that having an extra 20 supply in a fight doesn't mean an autowin. Otherwise you're just increasing the size of the Protoss deathball by 7 Colossi O.o
Day[9] asked Dustin Browder about this. Apparently it raises the tech specs more than you might think, and would in particular make 2v2, 3v3, and especially 4v4 massively stressful on machines. I don't think blizz wants an expansion that makes the game choke on computers that could handle it before ;_;
|
On August 02 2011 11:55 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I wonder how the Terran players feel about maybe not getting a new unit in Hots... I for one am excited to see some new Swarm additions :D
I honestly don't mind if we don't get any new units. I would be heart broken, however, if they made no tweaks to the units we have.
But as Dustin said, I'm giving him money, so he's going to give me some s*** to play with.
|
Rather than removing Overseers, I think they just need some kind of tweaking, preferably to help Zerg with early game scouting. Maybe lower their health but make them available at hatch tech. Of course that would create problems with such early stealth detection. I can see why balance is so tricky.
|
Excited to see a protoss unit that can harass in the early game.
|
I hope they take a second look at the macro mechanics, especially inject larva, which creates scenarios of "do a ton of damage to zerg or die", which causes games to end rather quickly.
|
I've always thought that Terran is too versatile so I'm glad they think that too. And I've always wanted a real harass unit for protoss. Looking good, Blizzard.
|
...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw.
I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups.
|
On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups.
I think terrans are flexible but I don't really see it as a problem. The problem is being "reactive" which is just another word for defensive, having limited options, and trying to survive. Defensive doesn't equal bad but it's not very fun either.
If there were more options/flexibility for the other races then I think that's the way to go for a more exciting game where active scouting is required and more unexpected twists can happen.
Anyway I like how he doesn't appear all that conservative and the willingness to scrap, add and tweak units quite a bit sounds really good to me. Maybe it will end up slightly less balanced than today (at least before patches) but I enjoy a bit of change instead of the baby steps in the patches.
|
On August 03 2011 03:39 Sixes wrote:
The big issue with making Zerg "Swarmy" is that it makes Zerg more and more vulnerable to splash damage and choke points.
Let's make a quick list of units Zerg complained about: tanks, thors, colossi, forcefields ... they all annihilate swarms.
Now I agree that Zergs need to be more swarmy but then you can't have solutions that are as simple as 3 forcefields on a choke or "I sieged 3 tanks" or "I have a couple thors, bye bye 15 mutas". The reason why Zerg players don't use 150 lings to destroy things is really map architecture. Take Shakuras for example. No way you can get a surround unless a Terra/Toss is sitting right on your front door because the whole map is a hallway with less width than tank range.
A swarm is cool but if the units just block each other and get mowed down like the Zerg from the WoL campaign, people won't play that way.
I only want the Roach to be a 1 supply unit and weaker. I don't get why you are bringing up The big issue with making Zerg "Swarmy" when I never said anything about it not being a big issue. I simply just want the Roach to be more like it was in the beta but fixed (regardless of the implications on balance at first).
|
On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they?
Properties of AOE? Burst DPS to an area... good against more units, not as useful against one unit.
Well Zerg have banelings, infestors, mutas, and broodlords... yes broodlords and mutas have a form of AOE. And they are talking about giving Zerg lurkers, another form of AOE. Terran have siegetanks, hellions, hunter seeker missle, thors, and stimmed bio - yes I'll make the argument stimmed bio balls have properties of AOE. So that's technically 5 for Terrans.
So if Zerg might get 5 and Terran already have 5, Protoss can have 4.
|
I'm pretty biased for Protoss here obviously, but I do think Zerg needs some work as well. My only suggestion is to give the Roach a morph at Lair tech. Whether it is the Lurker, the Lurker 2.0, or a completely new unit, it doesn't really matter. Simply put, it's similar to the Protoss' issue of not getting enough out of investing into a tech path. Roaches are very powerful in certain phases of the game, but as the game progresses, faster speed and burrow movement just aren't powerful enough upgrades to truly utilize them in a mid-late game army. Giving them a morph that's powerful in both the mid-game while also supporting their late-game units will give Zerg much more consistency and allow their transitioning to flow much smoother.
I'm on board with this, give the roach a lair-tech morph similar to the BW hydra. Roach/Hydra not being a dead-end unit comp would be interesting indeed.
|
On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game...
Not if it shot scarabs as slow as banelings move, then it'd be no better than banelings one at a time. Sounds pretty fair to me. Blue flame hellions or bio drops are still better because they are so fast. And banelings are still better because they are cheaper and overlords are free. So actually no, bring back the reaver and make it shoot as fast as banelings on creep at the least, then we have something that compares to the other races.
|
Canada1123 Posts
On August 03 2011 05:25 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 03:39 Sixes wrote:
The big issue with making Zerg "Swarmy" is that it makes Zerg more and more vulnerable to splash damage and choke points.
Let's make a quick list of units Zerg complained about: tanks, thors, colossi, forcefields ... they all annihilate swarms.
Now I agree that Zergs need to be more swarmy but then you can't have solutions that are as simple as 3 forcefields on a choke or "I sieged 3 tanks" or "I have a couple thors, bye bye 15 mutas". The reason why Zerg players don't use 150 lings to destroy things is really map architecture. Take Shakuras for example. No way you can get a surround unless a Terra/Toss is sitting right on your front door because the whole map is a hallway with less width than tank range.
A swarm is cool but if the units just block each other and get mowed down like the Zerg from the WoL campaign, people won't play that way. I only want the Roach to be a 1 supply unit and weaker. I don't get why you are bringing up when I never said anything about it not being a big issue. I simply just want the Roach to be more like it was in the beta but fixed (regardless of the implications on balance at first).
1 supply and weaker means more numerous and consequently more vulnerable to AoE. Even with their increased range roaches are still short ranged units and greatly bothered by chokes. That's why I brought it up.
|
On August 03 2011 03:54 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 03:39 Probe1 wrote:
Did you seriously just compare creep to siege tanks? My entire response was just derailed by reading that.
Did you
Seriously
Just compare Creep..
To Siege Tanks...
Also, Sixes, Zerg does have vision where creep is. No need to "upgrade" it to do something it already does. I meant vision on creep regardless of the overlord or tumor still being there. A Terran/Toss can do a quick advance killing tumors and end up on creep that you don't have vision on. And a massive ling surround on creep can be extremely destructive and is effectively a zoning tool. I never claimed it was as effective as tanks. Quite frankly I think tanks should be taken out of the bleeding game just like hydras but they are iconic of BW and consequently are kept. Anything that has a tactical description that reads "if it's there you can't ever attack cost effectively" seems rather silly. I would like to see something that makes creep more resilient and a better zoning tool, now how to do that is up for debate, I just see it as an existing foundation that seems like it could be expanded upon. It is also much more interesting than just adding a unit like the siege tank/lurker/colossus which just sits there and does obscene damage without any micro or control required. Creep requires consistent spreading and has a very high skill (or APM I guess) cap. Instead of a siege unit I'd prefer a zergling "leap" (as they seem to have added to the single player) which could actually get the swarm into combat. now if that leap had range 6 off creep and range 12 on creep, you have a crazy zoning tool that would make opponents very careful about attacking on creep. If the leap just allowed to skip cliffs in the downwards direction it could be a lot of fun (so lings can't jump up into main bases but they can swarm down onto lower ones or out of a base after a drop or they can swarm an army from a cliff-top). Come to think of it there is also no way to reduce larvae cost ... what about an upgrade (at Hive?) to make lings be 100 minerals for 4 from 1 larvae? This would make them a much more valid late game unit. Anyways, I'm just throwing out ideas which don't involve drastic overhauls or porting in a BW unit while hopefully feeling swarmy (and avoiding the downsides of chokes and splash to some extent).
Tank's aren't just iconic, they define the Terran race. Not talking about just lore, but TvZ has always revolved around the tank. Without it you don't have Terrans you have another variant of the Protoss race. While you're at it lets remove lings. The only reason they have that is because they are an BW iconic unit. Let's dilute SC2 to roach + creep v marauders + drops /sarcasm.
I was basically agreeing with you up until then. But then I realized you're point of view was screw map positioning and tactics all I ever want to do is play mobile armies vs mobile armies and make sure Zerg has the best vision and fastest units. Anything slow and strong is stupid.
Also if not tanks... do you really want another walking splash unit for the terrans? How about if we gave Ghosts irradiate... wait that sounds like collosi and storm... oh...
|
You know what would be cool? Well, that is how Dustin puts it.. units that are resourceful. -_-
They sort of go hand-in-hand DB.
|
On August 03 2011 04:05 Deltablazy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 03:54 Probe1 wrote:
You know that's actually a pretty damn good idea. Lore wise it's all fucked but .. well you could say that about SC2 in general ^_^
For a very long time I've thought that if they were to add in the lurker it would be completely screwed up. You can't build the tech structure until Lair.. Then you build the structure, make the units and evolve lurker aspect all at the same time? .. nah
But Lurker from Roach actually sounds like the perfect solution Gheizen.
Edit: Sixes I have no response that isn't a flame on your knowledge of playing starcraft so let me say I completely disagree with either what you're saying or how your saying it. However I would rather remain silent on then fight about something where nothing is to gain. And when that happens, lore fans will cry rivers saying that roaches mutating into lurkers ruins sc2 and demand a reverse change or swap roaches and hydras to respect the lore. =\ My problem is protoss getting a harass unit. First Blizz kills the reaper and then is going to give one to toss, which assuming is as good as the reaper, will keep terran in their base. Terran loses their early game advantage and the 15 minute mark is easily reached, after which we all know what happens.
They also already said they are buffing the Reaper in HOTS.
|
On August 03 2011 05:54 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 04:05 Deltablazy wrote:On August 03 2011 03:54 Probe1 wrote:
You know that's actually a pretty damn good idea. Lore wise it's all fucked but .. well you could say that about SC2 in general ^_^
For a very long time I've thought that if they were to add in the lurker it would be completely screwed up. You can't build the tech structure until Lair.. Then you build the structure, make the units and evolve lurker aspect all at the same time? .. nah
But Lurker from Roach actually sounds like the perfect solution Gheizen.
Edit: Sixes I have no response that isn't a flame on your knowledge of playing starcraft so let me say I completely disagree with either what you're saying or how your saying it. However I would rather remain silent on then fight about something where nothing is to gain. And when that happens, lore fans will cry rivers saying that roaches mutating into lurkers ruins sc2 and demand a reverse change or swap roaches and hydras to respect the lore. =\ My problem is protoss getting a harass unit. First Blizz kills the reaper and then is going to give one to toss, which assuming is as good as the reaper, will keep terran in their base. Terran loses their early game advantage and the 15 minute mark is easily reached, after which we all know what happens. They also already said they are buffing the Reaper in HOTS.
D8 charge -> spider mines - calling it.
|
A harass unit for protoss... I cant wait for beta to possibly try out one :D Personally I don't care if they take away colossus if we get a unit that can really harass. My style is to force a guy to multitask.. but its so so hard as protoss compared to the other races. I have been offracing a bit just to enjoy their harass capabilities.. Winning by making a guy fall apart from harass feels so good..
One thing though that wasn't mentioned was clan system.. clan system + protoss harass unit would be really nice lol.
|
On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups.
lol I've been saying that sc2 is designed poorly since beta. Along with Terran's problems, the warp gate mechanic for Protoss ruins the Protoss matchups
|
On August 02 2011 15:59 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:55 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game... Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different? Low skill Terrans don't need good splits against low skill Zergs. They would with Reavers. More important, Reavers need shuttles to be interesting, and buffing the Warp Prism heath for good reaver harass makes them PRETTY FUCKING GOOD for other warp-in harass. You'd have to choose one or the other, or redesign the reaver pretty heavily, I think
Low skill Terrans can just make marauders, and they will eat reavers alive. Low skill zergs can just make roaches or mutas and they will eat reavers alive. Problem?
|
Canada1123 Posts
On August 03 2011 05:47 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 03:54 Sixes wrote:On August 03 2011 03:39 Probe1 wrote:
Did you seriously just compare creep to siege tanks? My entire response was just derailed by reading that.
Did you
Seriously
Just compare Creep..
To Siege Tanks...
Also, Sixes, Zerg does have vision where creep is. No need to "upgrade" it to do something it already does. I meant vision on creep regardless of the overlord or tumor still being there. A Terran/Toss can do a quick advance killing tumors and end up on creep that you don't have vision on. And a massive ling surround on creep can be extremely destructive and is effectively a zoning tool. I never claimed it was as effective as tanks. Quite frankly I think tanks should be taken out of the bleeding game just like hydras but they are iconic of BW and consequently are kept. Anything that has a tactical description that reads "if it's there you can't ever attack cost effectively" seems rather silly. I would like to see something that makes creep more resilient and a better zoning tool, now how to do that is up for debate, I just see it as an existing foundation that seems like it could be expanded upon. It is also much more interesting than just adding a unit like the siege tank/lurker/colossus which just sits there and does obscene damage without any micro or control required. Creep requires consistent spreading and has a very high skill (or APM I guess) cap. Instead of a siege unit I'd prefer a zergling "leap" (as they seem to have added to the single player) which could actually get the swarm into combat. now if that leap had range 6 off creep and range 12 on creep, you have a crazy zoning tool that would make opponents very careful about attacking on creep. If the leap just allowed to skip cliffs in the downwards direction it could be a lot of fun (so lings can't jump up into main bases but they can swarm down onto lower ones or out of a base after a drop or they can swarm an army from a cliff-top). Come to think of it there is also no way to reduce larvae cost ... what about an upgrade (at Hive?) to make lings be 100 minerals for 4 from 1 larvae? This would make them a much more valid late game unit. Anyways, I'm just throwing out ideas which don't involve drastic overhauls or porting in a BW unit while hopefully feeling swarmy (and avoiding the downsides of chokes and splash to some extent). Tank's aren't just iconic, they define the Terran race. Not talking about just lore, but TvZ has always revolved around the tank. Without it you don't have Terrans you have another variant of the Protoss race. While you're at it lets remove lings. The only reason they have that is because they are an BW iconic unit. Let's dilute SC2 to roach + creep v marauders + drops /sarcasm. I was basically agreeing with you up until then. But then I realized you're point of view was screw map positioning and tactics all I ever want to do is play mobile armies vs mobile armies and make sure Zerg has the best vision and fastest units. Anything slow and strong is stupid. Also if not tanks... do you really want another walking splash unit for the terrans? How about if we gave Ghosts irradiate... wait that sounds like collosi and storm... oh...
Slow and steady is the Terran style (if they decide to use it because bio is pretty good at killing people too) so why is everyone here raving about the lurker (which is slow and steady and in fact very similar to a tank with a setup time and an anti-ground splash). As you said we don't want Terran to be another Protoss so why do people want Zerg to be another Terran?
Actually I am absolutely fine with map positioning and tactics but when tanks can force a half map stalemate like on Shakuras they completely negate any form of tactics, you aren't going to stop them getting there, it's 1 tank shot from their natural. They are the only unit that negates absolutely every Zerg ground based attack. Colossi can be overwhelmed and need support, they don't melt roaches or lings fast enough to get away without any buffering units. Tanks can. They just sit there and if you have 6-8 tanks there is nothing Zerg can do on the ground (ultras being so far down the tech tree they aren't often a solution) that is even remotely cost effective.
Now if people want a tank vs lurker standoff ... have fun, but I think it's a pretty dumb idea quite frankly. If anything Zerg should be getting ways to swarm or overwhelm, not ways to turtle relying on a few lurkers. The sad part is that Terrans with bio and hellions feel more aggressive and swarm-like sometimes than the Zerg do because with their range and better dropships (and very cost effective units in small numbers) they can afford to attack from all angles and keep up that constant pressure.
Maybe 8 ling overlord drops will become the norm and we just haven't discovered how the swarm can work yet but in the meantime I think something involving more/better/more resilient creep and ways for the Zerg to be a swarm without just getting mauled at a choke would give us better gameplay than getting a tank of our own.
Edit:
Here's an idea, give the zerglings some form of leap forward (saving them both the "getting stuck" and having to close the distance so far) and make them take extra damage from single target shots but not be affected by splash when jumping. It means you would need to actually support those tanks or they will die. right now all you have to worry about is mutas and given thor range that isn't a huge issue.
|
On August 02 2011 14:12 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion. Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled.
Me too. If Terran was so good we would have more top tiers foreign terrans(like we have Toss and Zergs). Instead we have a bunch korean terrans who have such good army control they can get away with stuff other players can't.
|
I agree that Terran is the most versatile and interesting race, but i would be really disappointed if the other races got new units while Terran didn't.
I would like to see terran receive another mech unit! Preferably a unit that could make mech viable against Protoss, (Not just with 1-base All-ins) A middle ground unit that would be a little slower than a hellion and less effective to killing workers but instead more effective versus the protoss ground army. (Yes i know this sounds like a vulture xd.)
|
Actually your talking about a Ghost on wheels...
|
I also think the baneling is just bad game design (just like blue flame hellions, which are now super-vultures buffed further by each base requiring larger worker saturation), I would be happy enough if they were replaced with lurkers. +2 baneling drops on worker lines can be ridiculous, zergs are starting to learn to attack at the front in mass while using speed overlords to drop on workers, and workers can't outrun speed overlords with banes if they have to go around a sim city. Baneling landmines are also kind of stupid and luck-based. It's kind of like a lurker already but one-shot-kills-all in a huge circular radius.
I think their role would be much better replaced by the lurker in almost all aspects.
Also I think it's interesting he publicly mentioned how people are complaining about fungal growth. Hopefully soon we'll see their decision on whether or not infestors are truly OP.
|
On August 03 2011 06:26 Alpino wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:12 windsupernova wrote:On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion. Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled. Me too. If Terran was so good we would have more top tiers foreign terrans(like we have Toss and Zergs). Instead we have a bunch korean terrans who have such good army control they can get away with stuff other players can't.
thats because foreign players suck in general.
the top players are korean, so we should look at them as examples.
korean terrans are dominating.
(youre basically implying that terran isnt a good race but good players just pick terran which is bullshit anways)
you cant just segment the players and say if terran is so damn good then the best players in bronze, gold, plat, diamond, masters should all be terran.
doesnt work like that
|
Dear DB:
Please remove destructible rocks from all maps / missions / misc content from Wings of Liberty, then relabel the game as Heart of the Swarm.
I will attend the midnight sales for your expansion.
Thx.
|
On August 03 2011 06:42 Zorgaz wrote:
I agree that Terran is the most versatile and interesting race, but i would be really disappointed if the other races got new units while Terran didn't.
I would like to see terran receive another mech unit! Preferably a unit that could make mech viable against Protoss, (Not just with 1-base All-ins) A middle ground unit that would be a little slower than a hellion and less effective to killing workers but instead more effective versus the protoss ground army. (Yes i know this sounds like a vulture xd.)
Or it sounds like a Goliath xd
On August 03 2011 06:54 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:26 Alpino wrote:On August 02 2011 14:12 windsupernova wrote:On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion. Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled. Me too. If Terran was so good we would have more top tiers foreign terrans(like we have Toss and Zergs). Instead we have a bunch korean terrans who have such good army control they can get away with stuff other players can't. thats because foreign players suck in general. the top players are korean, so we should look at them as examples. korean terrans are dominating. (youre basically implying that terran isnt a good race but good players just pick terran which is bullshit anways) you cant just segment the players and say if terran is so damn good then the best players in bronze, gold, plat, diamond, masters should all be terran. doesnt work like that
Actually what he's trying to say is that Terran isn't too strong as evidenced by the lack of foreigner Terran dominance. Comparing foreigners to foreigners we seem to have more top tier Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, White-Ra, etc) if anything and then maybe Zerg (Idra, Ret, Dimaga, etc).
He's not drawing any conclusions other than that you cannot make any similar conclusions about Terrans being strong by looking at the Korean scene.
|
On August 03 2011 06:00 Powster wrote:
A harass unit for protoss... I cant wait for beta to possibly try out one :D Personally I don't care if they take away colossus if we get a unit that can really harass. My style is to force a guy to multitask.. but its so so hard as protoss compared to the other races. I have been offracing a bit just to enjoy their harass capabilities.. Winning by making a guy fall apart from harass feels so good..
This. As protoss you have to keep your units together and you don't have any real harassing unit. Maybe Pheonix but you will have to go out of your way to get them since stargates aren't exactly common. This is why I almost switched to terran but then I realised I didn't want to be en jävla terran. Thank you Naniwa
|
On August 03 2011 06:16 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups. lol I've been saying that sc2 is designed poorly since beta. Along with Terran's problems, the warp gate mechanic for Protoss ruins the Protoss matchups
I agree 100%. Warp-in mechanic has turned PvP into a 4-gate fest, made Protoss rushes too strong, and made late-game TvP and ZvP a nightmare for the T/Z, due to almost instant and wherever you want reinforcement system.
|
On August 03 2011 06:16 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups. lol I've been saying that sc2 is designed poorly since beta. Along with Terran's problems, the warp gate mechanic for Protoss ruins the Protoss matchups
I feel like Terran being too flexible is partly a problem with the other races not being flexible enough.
I would say Zerg is the least flexible, and definitely needs the most improvement, right now it feels like Zerg is too focussed on overcoming the flaws in the race and reaching that optimal economy, while Terran and Protoss rely a lot more on the strengths of the race (maybe Protoss is too far the opposite way and relies too much on the races strengths to the point of being one dimensional.).
I don't know if Blizzard intended the races to play out this way, but I agree with Dustin Browder and think that instead of Terran units being weakened, or got rid of to make the race more stagnant and less flexible, they should add and improve units, and remove boring units from the other units to get them to a similar position.
The examples he gives are great, Zerg is actually the race that probably appeals to me the most in theory, but the flexibility of Terran makes it a lot more enjoyable to play. So many Zerg units feel clunky and unpolished; Corrupters (definitely Corrupters, they're so boring and they're only purpose in the game is to specifically counter certain units), Hydras, Roaches, Overseers. I think too many of the units have roles that are too defined and either need to be given more, or consolidated into a more fun unit. Personally I think I'd like to see roaches go, just because it feels like the only reason they exist is for a few cheeses and so Zerg don't die before they get out better units, Zerglings could fill that role if they were tweaked. It would be nice if Hydra's felt more zergy too, maybe sort of like a cross between what they are now and a zergling, in general I think more zergy is the way to go with the zerg race, or at least make it so that is a viable possibility (back to flexibility).
|
On August 03 2011 06:16 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups. lol I've been saying that sc2 is designed poorly since beta. Along with Terran's problems, the warp gate mechanic for Protoss ruins the Protoss matchups
It wouldn't if Gateway cooldown time was slightly shorter (5 seconds) than Warpgate cooldown time, and would allow for much more strategic variety.
|
What makes me wonder about Lurkers is that they fire like a hellion (straight line in front of them).
In SC2 the units creates a concave quickly and that will reduce the effectiveness by alot.
The reason that works with hellions is that they are fast and can position themselves in angles so that the fire line hits multiple targets.
You can also look at the collosus and see why they are so good. they have the swoop attack that is designed to hit multiple target in a concave.
|
On August 03 2011 07:06 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:42 Zorgaz wrote:
I agree that Terran is the most versatile and interesting race, but i would be really disappointed if the other races got new units while Terran didn't.
I would like to see terran receive another mech unit! Preferably a unit that could make mech viable against Protoss, (Not just with 1-base All-ins) A middle ground unit that would be a little slower than a hellion and less effective to killing workers but instead more effective versus the protoss ground army. (Yes i know this sounds like a vulture xd.)
Or it sounds like a Goliath xd Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:54 Condor Hero wrote:On August 03 2011 06:26 Alpino wrote:On August 02 2011 14:12 windsupernova wrote:On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion. Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled. Me too. If Terran was so good we would have more top tiers foreign terrans(like we have Toss and Zergs). Instead we have a bunch korean terrans who have such good army control they can get away with stuff other players can't. thats because foreign players suck in general. the top players are korean, so we should look at them as examples. korean terrans are dominating. (youre basically implying that terran isnt a good race but good players just pick terran which is bullshit anways) you cant just segment the players and say if terran is so damn good then the best players in bronze, gold, plat, diamond, masters should all be terran. doesnt work like that Actually what he's trying to say is that Terran isn't too strong as evidenced by the lack of foreigner Terran dominance. Comparing foreigners to foreigners we seem to have more top tier Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, White-Ra, etc) if anything and then maybe Zerg (Idra, Ret, Dimaga, etc). He's not drawing any conclusions other than that you cannot make any similar conclusions about Terrans being strong by looking at the Korean scene.
What? That just means that foreign terrans aren't good enough. The only one I would say particularly stands out is Thorzain, who did beat Naniwa and IdrA, not sure if he's beat Ret, and has taken games off MC (though a lot from 1-1-1 all-in). Almost all of the "top tier foreigner" players you mentioned faced Korean terrans and lost. Terrans dominate the GSL. Nestea has said that Losira's terran is better than his zerg (though could just be Nestea trolling) and who knows about Nestea's level of terran.
|
On August 03 2011 08:02 Essem wrote:
What makes me wonder about Lurkers is that they fire like a hellion (straight line in front of them).
In SC2 the units creates a concave quickly and that will reduce the effectiveness by alot.
The reason that works with hellions is that they are fast and can position themselves in angles so that the fire line hits multiple targets.
You can also look at the collosus and see why they are so good. they have the swoop attack that is designed to hit multiple target in a concave.
It would be effective still. The old lurker didn't have to "line em up" in order to be effective. If youre going for maximum DPS then sure but even in the terribad pathing that is BW good players would micro so that their units were not lined up and the lurker still did pretty damn well.
|
not that i mind another harassment unit for toss, when i play toss i have plenty of them x3. When i play against toss there are non, so its pretty perfect for me.
And about the lurker discussion, if they are anything like bw they would be horrible in every matchup, and people would keep using banelings. (vs toss well just like in bw, vs terran few marauders would roflstomp them receiving lil damage themself).
I love the new burrow some banelings while in the middle of the fight, thats so scary, as the opponent doesn't really notice it at that time and then when they run back to get the mutas boom.
And marines rofled lurkers in bw already when you used a bit of positioning (well lurkers could massaker marines more easy then the other way round hehe). But lurkers were a perfect combo with dark swarm.
But spidermines lurkers reavers would be total waste in sc2 if they would work anyway close to the bw conterpart. I am just curious what they will add and really hope they don't let anything die X.X.
at the end we have a WoL and HotS community and both say their multiplayer units are more balanced haha. (though blizzard will probably force some switching :3)
|
8748 Posts
I'll love Browder if he gives me a unit that can "raid" haha =]
|
Foreigner Terrans not dominating simply means that they're far inferior to their Korean counterparts, who are indeed dominating (17 in Code S so far). The "Terran isn't that strong because foreigner terrans aren't that good" argument is terrible. Look at how strong a race is at the very top levels of play, which means the Korean level, not the foreigner level.
|
Canada13379 Posts
And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
The reaper. I'm just gonna throw that out there for everyone to think about.
|
Canada1123 Posts
On August 03 2011 08:35 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard. The reaper. I'm just gonna throw that out there for everyone to think about.
When was that ever really "useful"? It was broken in one build against Zerg because with their speed they destroy almost anything Zerg has early game. That is all. It's not generally a useful unit (except as an early scout) or something that came back later in the game.
Reapers could be useful if marauders didn't have obscene DPS versus buildings and a reaper drop was required to pick off tech. As it is though marines and marauders are already in the main army and with stim they destroy tech buildings fast enough you don't need reapers for the job.
Also I have seen mention that reapers were getting a revamp somewhere ...
I would love Zerg to get something that can bypass a choke (except air) like protoss has blink/colossus and terrans have reapers. It would give an option to try to harass or break a turtling player by forcing them to split their defenses a little. Even just one tank per cliff section is fewer tanks at the front.
Again, Zerg would be more swarm-like if the swarm didn't automatically equate to getting annihilated in a choke point or having to wait for 15 minutes until a player moves out.
Edit:
I think we could use more units like the phoenix or hellion which have obvious limitations but quite a few uses and lead to more inventive play. The corruptor would be the opposite with only a very specific few units it is any good against and no real use outside that.
I agree with DB that corruptors and overseers are boring. In fact I would add colossi to the list (they don't do anything particularly interesting other than encourage deathballs) as well as reapers. Carriers are currently unused but could see a lot more use if colossi are out, this is because the opponent won't have a ton of corruptors (or whatever replaces them) or vikings to counter colossi so a carrier switch could be viable. Ultras, while really cool could probably see a little bit of an upgrade, even just the ability to walk over lings would be nice given they are a huge melee unit.
Most of Terran is good except maybe the reaper ... though even marines and marauders could see some tweaks. For example I wouldn't mind the marine being 5 +1 vs light as opposed to 6 damage. Small changes like that might encourage use of other units when needed (like reapers vs buildings).
|
On August 03 2011 07:07 Kevan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:00 Powster wrote:
A harass unit for protoss... I cant wait for beta to possibly try out one :D Personally I don't care if they take away colossus if we get a unit that can really harass. My style is to force a guy to multitask.. but its so so hard as protoss compared to the other races. I have been offracing a bit just to enjoy their harass capabilities.. Winning by making a guy fall apart from harass feels so good..
This. As protoss you have to keep your units together and you don't have any real harassing unit. Maybe Pheonix but you will have to go out of your way to get them since stargates aren't exactly common. This is why I almost switched to terran but then I realised I didn't want to be en jävla terran. Thank you Naniwa
Haha I sense too much imba whining in some of these posts. ¬_¬
I would like a harass unit that isn't tier 3. Yeah, protoss has DT... which get shutdown as soon as detection is up. Phoenix are costly and you need a lot of them plus they can't do much else. This is the issue they are talking about with Terran. Their regular army units doubles as harassment. Sure medivac and prism cost the same supply except 1 unit is always useful and the other isn't.
However, I have no problem with units that have smaller niches. Not every unit needs to be "I can do everything" or "I am always useful." It's OK to have specialist units. OK overseer is "boring" then WTF is the obs? Not everything needs to be shooting lazers out of it's rear.
|
I love how the collossus looks, the whole "war of the worlds" concept and the idea of burning armies in seconds... but it's not an interesting unit for multiplayer. You just A-move with them, sometimes you walk them back and forth a little... and that's it. In theory you can climb cliffs to do damage, but in practice it's hard to find situations where you would risk walking with such an expensive unit into an enemy base, specially because once you are out of collosus the gateway mix tends to just die really fast to mass zerg and terran units. As much as i like them, I would prefer something that requires more effort in the part of the protoss player, if only to keep things fun.
As for the Thor, I'm curious as to why so many posters have said it's not a good unit. Really? I play TvZ with marine - tank - thor (and vikings or ghosts later on) and in TvP i eventually add thors to the bio ball, in both cases with great success. Is it because I'm plat? Are Thors not useful higher up the ladder? Why so few love for them? From a gameplay perspective I prefer them to Goliaths, they have a good ability for killing other expensive (mostly protoss) stuff, deal A LOT of damage but are doomed to die when their supporting army is killed, can be fedback and mind controlled against you.
And, speaking of cool stuff, they're a giant robot controlled by a guy with a funny accent, what's not to like?
(BTW, I play random, that's why I have opinions on both P and T).
|
I just don't see how browder thinks terrans are too flexible. Sure, our openings are VERY flexible, but our real combat strategies are far and away the most reactionary, most micro intensive, and least varied in the game.
I'm tired of NEEDING tanks in every single matchup outside of tvp (where bio is the only way to go, since they keep changing mech to where it can't work) I want to be a LITTLE more mobile with my main army...
Change the colossus. Cool unit idea, shit for fun. I want protoss to break away from the deathball mentality as well.
And fix the goddamn hunter seeker missile! I want a reason to build ravens again.
|
On August 03 2011 10:55 Honeybadger wrote:
And fix the goddamn hunter seeker missile! I want a reason to build ravens again.
Ravens are a mobile "no 270minerals" scan unit with autoturrets, they are pretty useful !
but yes, hunter seeker missile (i refuse to call them simple "seeker missile"s) could need some tweaking.
|
Yess! Protoss may get a new harassment unit :D I think that will make protoss a much more i guess "complete race" in that we don't really have a staple harassment unit, banshee hellion etc. Dark templars are basically suicide units, do as much damage as possible before they die, warp prisms are made of cardboard, and storming mineral lines... well, yeah, it's kind of hard to pull off ^^
I'm certainly not saying toss has no harassment potential, people like Kiwikaki have recently shown (yet again) the potency of Phoenix. And i'm certainly not calling imbalance, but I love harassment and making my opponent multitask more than he'd like, so a new harassment unit for me would be great fun
|
I don;t know what the big deal with people and Lurkers. They would just die to Collosi, and Tanks with smart fire would deal with them asap. Not to mention Marine splitting would be easy to do against Lurkers.
Lurkers= Non-Moving Banlings.
What made them effective in BW was the fact that Zerg had D. Swarm and Marine control was difficult.
|
Wow this is about the first semi-intelligent thing I think I've ever seen Blizzard say about Starcraft 2, particularly about balance (in all senses as opposed to just win/lose balance)
|
Don't want any BW units stinking up my SC2.
|
On August 03 2011 10:55 Honeybadger wrote:
I'm tired of NEEDING tanks in every single matchup outside of tvp (where bio is the only way to go, since they keep changing mech to where it can't work) I want to be a LITTLE more mobile with my main army...
Why are you playing terran lol?
|
On August 03 2011 12:34 simblor wrote:
Don't want any BW units stinking up my SC2.
You mean like Marines, Siege Tanks, Battlecruisers, Zealots, High Templar, Dark Templar, Carriers, Observers, Archons, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Mutalisks and Ultralisks?
Yeah..it'd be a tragedy.
|
On August 02 2011 18:23 Talin wrote:
I'm cool with that too, as long as it ain't Carriers. Carriers are iconic.
In BW terms, yes. As SC2 is another games, carriers can be a 4v4-unit for fun while Colossi are a standard unit.
|
On August 03 2011 10:55 Honeybadger wrote:
I just don't see how browder thinks terrans are too flexible. Sure, our openings are VERY flexible, but our real combat strategies are far and away the most reactionary, most micro intensive, and least varied in the game.
Got any evidence for that? Do you main Terran? I think you'll find it hard to prove, especially over Zerg, that you are "far and away the most reactionary", Protoss challenges you for micro intensive (have you ever seen a pro PvP?) and least varied.
I'm tired of NEEDING tanks in every single matchup outside of tvp (where bio is the only way to go, since they keep changing mech to where it can't work) I want to be a LITTLE more mobile with my main army...
MMA has a beast TvZ and uses almost solely bio.
BFHellions are amazing in all match-ups, are one of the most mobile units in the game, and count as part mech for TvP, I suppose.
Change the colossus. Cool unit idea, shit for fun. I want protoss to break away from the deathball mentality as well.
Surely the deathball is fairly plain and not very varied? See: your first point.
And fix the goddamn hunter seeker missile! I want a reason to build ravens again.
The missile needs a tweak, but Ravens themselves are fine, seeing a lot of use in TvT and becoming more standard in other match-ups.
|
Canada1123 Posts
On August 03 2011 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 18:23 Talin wrote:
I'm cool with that too, as long as it ain't Carriers. Carriers are iconic. In BW terms, yes. As SC2 is another games, carriers can be a 4v4-unit for fun while Colossi are a standard unit.
Again, carriers might have a hope in sc 2 if colossi are out.
The issue right now is that the units Z and T make to get rid of colossi (corruptors and vikings) also eat carriers for breakfast.
Now on the other hand a templar or non-air siege unit to carrier transition should theoretically be possible just like the templar to colossus transition is.
Is it possible to fungal interceptors? I have never had a chance to find out ...
|
Lalalaland34486 Posts
On August 03 2011 08:35 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard. The reaper. I'm just gonna throw that out there for everyone to think about.
SC2 devs have generally acknowledged that they messed up with the Reaper. It's basically a unit that is either OP or UP and is really hard (if possible) to get it in the middle.
|
I feel like giving back Scourge for Zerg would fix the whole colossus/corruptor problem really easy.
Corruptors are expensive, take alot of supply and basically do nothing after killing the colossus.
Scourge are cheap, fast and die when they've done their job.
Would be awesome to see some scourge/colossus dodging micro.
Putting back scourge might need some balance tweaking first though, since protoss doesn't have any air-air splash so it might be really hard to avoid the scourges.
|
My opinion on Dustin is way better now. They did good things about balancing, but i was doubting if they see design flaws in the game. It seems they see them. Cool, i can't wait to HotS.
They are dumb for not hiring two more people, who would for on UI though.
|
Zerg also needs an harass units we have zergling and mutas. But mutas are high tech and expensive. Zerglings get nullified by wallins.
|
I'm a bit worried about how lurker would do against marauders/blink stalkers
|
I'm totally hyped with a protoss harass unit!!!
Also I agree with Browder about Terran.
|
On August 03 2011 19:23 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:35 ZeromuS wrote:And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard. The reaper. I'm just gonna throw that out there for everyone to think about. SC2 devs have generally acknowledged that they messed up with the Reaper. It's basically a unit that is either OP or UP and is really hard (if possible) to get it in the middle.
I don't even know if it is super under powered at the moment as it is. Can you make only reapers and win? no... but they are still great at harassing (as shown by QXC) and still have a place in the early game putting on pressure. I see tons of great players using them.
Hell, I just watched Boxer use his barracks to only make five reapers before transitioning to mech.
In my opinion, it is like when Terran players stopped using tanks in the beta because they no longer did 70 damage to everything, or Zergs going away from Roaches after their large list of nerfs.
|
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors.
|
On August 03 2011 22:01 straycat wrote:
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors. You can set way points for each larva cocoon individually.
|
On August 04 2011 00:02 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 22:01 straycat wrote:
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors. You can set way points for each larva cocoon individually.
True, but after making an overlord, hunting for the overlord cocoon at all your hatcheries is a complete waste of attention
|
On August 03 2011 20:44 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 19:23 Firebolt145 wrote:On August 03 2011 08:35 ZeromuS wrote:And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard. The reaper. I'm just gonna throw that out there for everyone to think about. SC2 devs have generally acknowledged that they messed up with the Reaper. It's basically a unit that is either OP or UP and is really hard (if possible) to get it in the middle. I don't even know if it is super under powered at the moment as it is. Can you make only reapers and win? no... but they are still great at harassing (as shown by QXC) and still have a place in the early game putting on pressure. I see tons of great players using them. Hell, I just watched Boxer use his barracks to only make five reapers before transitioning to mech. In my opinion, it is like when Terran players stopped using tanks in the beta because they no longer did 70 damage to everything, or Zergs going away from Roaches after their large list of nerfs.
If their cost and build time went down, and the timing of when you get the first one out was bumped up I'd say it'd be balanced. BUT Blizzard has expressed that early game scout-ability is an issue. Is he going reapers? Is he going regular bio? I personally think they should get their mines back, but behave differently. Maybe spider mines?
I also find reapers to be useful as back row support against light melee. They are great for clearing off lings from your marines or marauders or thors. But that requires micro so they don't sprint forward and die. But all this requires you to tie up your barracks with 40s build time reapers.
|
I thought dts and phoenixes were already used for raiding? Or am I misunderstanding what he means by that?
|
Great read thoroughly enjoyed it, was kinda surprised when he didn't list warp prisms as a "raid"/ harass ability/unit for Protoss; especially with WP speed (don't remember actual upgrade name) making them fast as hell.
|
On August 04 2011 03:35 hunts wrote:
I thought dts and phoenixes were already used for raiding? Or am I misunderstanding what he means by that?
they are a huge commitment, while yes, you can use them to harass, they can also be nullified easily and remain useless for the rest of the game.
compare that to marine drops, hellion drops, banshees, lings or mutalisks.
|
On August 04 2011 03:35 hunts wrote:
I thought dts and phoenixes were already used for raiding? Or am I misunderstanding what he means by that?
He mentioned phoenixes. My general impression is that he thinks protoss options for harassment are less than impressive which is quite true. Phoenix are costly and limited in their role. If a zerg sees too many phoenixes he will just push and win. DTs are shutdown once detection is out. Void rays? He called it cheese. Prisms? Nothing worth dropping. I imagine if they make a new unit, they will make it the type that's great to drop and put in a prism. You know. Something that can't move very fast on it's own, but has GREAT burst damage to fill that raiding role. Maybe it's ammo can cost minerals.
|
On August 04 2011 03:05 Kezzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 00:02 [F_]aths wrote:On August 03 2011 22:01 straycat wrote:
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors. You can set way points for each larva cocoon individually. True, but after making an overlord, hunting for the overlord cocoon at all your hatcheries is a complete waste of attention
It's something that should be trained into your mechanics though. As soon as you make an overlord set the rally point. Or, if you don't have time, hotkey it quickly and come back to it later.
|
On August 04 2011 03:54 eXwOn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:05 Kezzer wrote:On August 04 2011 00:02 [F_]aths wrote:On August 03 2011 22:01 straycat wrote:
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors. You can set way points for each larva cocoon individually. True, but after making an overlord, hunting for the overlord cocoon at all your hatcheries is a complete waste of attention It's something that should be trained into your mechanics though. As soon as you make an overlord set the rally point. Or, if you don't have time, hotkey it quickly and come back to it later.
you clearly don't play zerg. there's absolutely no room/time for this shit. it honestly doesn't even make sense, since you're not making overlords while looking at your hatcheries.
people just have to come back, see a bunch of overlords, and spread them out across the map/tuck them away if need be. Even that requires several moments' breath
|
I want a new unit! Give me a firebat or something! You can't not give Terrans a unit in the expansion.
Either that or spider mines
|
On August 03 2011 19:18 SeaSwift wrote:
MMA has a beast TvZ and uses almost solely bio.
That's simply not true. Sure, he uses a lot of marine drops, but it all fits nicely into the standard tank-marine-medivac composition.
|
On August 04 2011 04:01 Virtue wrote:
I want a new unit! Give me a firebat or something! You can't not give Terrans a unit in the expansion.
Either that or spider mines
they can absolutely not add anything to terran if it helps the balance of the game.
where does terran have a huge gaping hole that needs to be filled?
|
On August 04 2011 03:57 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:54 eXwOn wrote:On August 04 2011 03:05 Kezzer wrote:On August 04 2011 00:02 [F_]aths wrote:On August 03 2011 22:01 straycat wrote:
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors. You can set way points for each larva cocoon individually. True, but after making an overlord, hunting for the overlord cocoon at all your hatcheries is a complete waste of attention It's something that should be trained into your mechanics though. As soon as you make an overlord set the rally point. Or, if you don't have time, hotkey it quickly and come back to it later. you clearly don't play zerg. there's absolutely no room/time for this shit. it honestly doesn't even make sense, since you're not making overlords while looking at your hatcheries. people just have to come back, see a bunch of overlords, and spread them out across the map/tuck them away if need be. Even that requires several moments' breath
Rallying Ovies is easy and does not cost much time+APM. select hotkeyed hatcheries => larvae, build one ovie and rally it using minimap, reselect hatcheries, larvae and repeat. You can rally 3 ovies individually within 3 seconds even with an amateur APM. You should make this a habit whenever building overlords.
no need to view hatcheries or switch view. just move mouse to minimap for a second
|
The only unit terran seems to be lacking is a flyer that was good against mutas. Perhaps like the valk from sc1 with some unique ground attack or buff.
I"d also like to see toss get a flyer that was good against armored air. Pheonix do 6 damage a shot to corrouptors, its pathetic.
Give zergs more swarming options, siege lurkers aren't it. As we know from bw terrans got preaty good at dealing with them.
|
I'm excited for a toss harassment unit, but I can't believe DB didn't mention EMP in the interview ='(. I agree that terran feels complete - whenever I play it there is always a next step and every unit of theirs is extremely good at a certain role besides the reaper, which is still not exactly a bad unit.
As for the rally point for overlords, I play toss and I agree that there should be one - according to Schnullerbacke13 it takes about a second per ovie to rally it and that's a lot of time that zergs really need to macro up and spread creep.
|
Zerg needs overlord rallies like they* need auto inject.
|
On August 04 2011 04:29 Pyre wrote:
The only unit terran seems to be lacking is a flyer that was good against mutas. Perhaps like the valk from sc1 with some unique ground attack or buff.
I don't think it's blizz's intention for each race to have an air response to each other's air. Terran has more than good enough ground-to-air to handle mutas.
I"d also like to see toss get a flyer that was good against armored air. Pheonix do 6 damage a shot to corrouptors, its pathetic.
Void rays are preettttyyy good against armored air.
|
Im sorry but I can't help it.
Protoss needs a space control unit too. I don't have any good ideas for this, but it would be nice to see more games go to 4-base epic winzzz. The Carrier really needs a buff for Protoss to be competitive in the late game, though. Especially since they removed Khaydarin Amulet :/
I have two word for you, friend.........FORCE FIELD.
the LAST thing toss needs is more ability to control the space on the battlefield.
Harassment, yes, maybe something in addition to the warp prism (which still isnt used to its potential, except white-ra's speciul taktics), but space control?? I couldn't help but lol at that.
|
I"d also like to see toss get a flyer that was good against armored air. Pheonix do 6 damage a shot to corrouptors, its pathetic.
Void rays are preettttyyy good against armored air.[/QUOTE]
Void rays are kind of gimmicky. You can't really consider a glass canon a true anti air unit. Each one costs almost a colossus and is fairly low damage until charged. They only really shine versus massive and those are rare.
|
The Overseer is useless? Didn't Nestea showcase some intense gooping against Losira in the GSL finals?
|
Canada1123 Posts
I would be surprised if they didn't give Terran a new unit, even if it means replacing an old one. Maybe adding some kind of relatively cheap mech unit, make the reapers useful and ditch hellions?
The fact is hellions and reapers fill all the same roles, mobile harass with great anti-light damage. Getting rid of one of them would free a slot for a barracks or factory unit ...
I am also not a huge fan of the thor, they are really only used against mass muta or for very specific rushes (and those were exactly the problems noted for the corruptor and reaper). They could maybe be replaced or tweaked (maybe force them to switch between anti-air attack mode and anti ground attack, seems like a Terran theme ...).
As for the toss harass is great and I really want them to lose the colossi (and without colossi there will be a little less incentive for deathballs) and get something new there (but not attackable by air so the carrier transition becomes an option).
For Zerg corruptors need to go and I wouldn't be too sad if broodlords got replaced. Some tweaking of hydras and overseers would also be nice. If they can fit in more creep or burrow related mechanics that would really make my day as those are somewhat underused but extremely fun and zergy.
|
On August 04 2011 03:05 Kezzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 00:02 [F_]aths wrote:On August 03 2011 22:01 straycat wrote:
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors. You can set way points for each larva cocoon individually. True, but after making an overlord, hunting for the overlord cocoon at all your hatcheries is a complete waste of attention That is why I reselect my hatches before I build overlords, so I can idividually rally them with a single click. If I forget to do that, I doubelclick them after spawn and send them to their location.
|
On August 04 2011 06:03 branflakes14 wrote:
The Overseer is useless? Didn't Nestea showcase some intense gooping against Losira in the GSL finals? Like the corruptor, the overseer is not useless. Both units have their role, but a quite limited one. It would be nicer to have units with a wider range of use.
|
I don't find the overseer boring as hell. The corruptor is boring, but how is the overseer boring?
Remember when the corruptor had the ability the overseer has now?
Good times~
|
On August 04 2011 04:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:57 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 04 2011 03:54 eXwOn wrote:On August 04 2011 03:05 Kezzer wrote:On August 04 2011 00:02 [F_]aths wrote:On August 03 2011 22:01 straycat wrote:
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors. You can set way points for each larva cocoon individually. True, but after making an overlord, hunting for the overlord cocoon at all your hatcheries is a complete waste of attention It's something that should be trained into your mechanics though. As soon as you make an overlord set the rally point. Or, if you don't have time, hotkey it quickly and come back to it later. you clearly don't play zerg. there's absolutely no room/time for this shit. it honestly doesn't even make sense, since you're not making overlords while looking at your hatcheries. people just have to come back, see a bunch of overlords, and spread them out across the map/tuck them away if need be. Even that requires several moments' breath Rallying Ovies is easy and does not cost much time+APM. select hotkeyed hatcheries => larvae, build one ovie and rally it using minimap, reselect hatcheries, larvae and repeat. You can rally 3 ovies individually within 3 seconds even with an amateur APM. You should make this a habit whenever building overlords. no need to view hatcheries or switch view. just move mouse to minimap for a second
I almost exclusively rally my overlords to individual locations until I have overlords at every base and along ledges for sight along the attack path. It doesn't take much apm, and imo it's really annoying to have a giant blob of overlords sitting at your rally point; at least rally them into a corner!
|
I don't think it's true that terran has too many strategies. I think that's a symptom of the other races not having enough strategies, and not enough early game scouting. I think an early cliff-walking unit would be a great addition to protoss, because it would let them get around the terran wall to see what they're doing, and it would also satisfy the niche for a harass unit. So in short, I would support reapers being taken away from terran and given to protoss. Suppose they were a gateway unit that required a forge?
As for zerg, I think some sort of buff to hatch-tech overlord scouting would solve the problem of terran having "too many options". Overseers with evo chamber would be good. I don't mind the concept of overseers, but I think they should cost supply, and have amazing hive tech spells.
Ultimately, the solution should not be to reduce terran's options, but to increase the options of the other two races. I want a game with lots of different strategies and not just lots of variations on the same strategies.
|
On August 02 2011 13:06 Slab wrote:
What I'm hoping for: An upgrade to the ultralisk where they can load up a baneling and catapult it into the enemy army! This would be so awesome haha!
Make it happen please Blizzard, pretty please?
Anyway, this was a pretty insightful interview.
|
On August 04 2011 03:57 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:54 eXwOn wrote:On August 04 2011 03:05 Kezzer wrote:On August 04 2011 00:02 [F_]aths wrote:On August 03 2011 22:01 straycat wrote:
Separate rally point for Overlords. Is something that would be nice to have in addition to more versatile corruptors. You can set way points for each larva cocoon individually. True, but after making an overlord, hunting for the overlord cocoon at all your hatcheries is a complete waste of attention It's something that should be trained into your mechanics though. As soon as you make an overlord set the rally point. Or, if you don't have time, hotkey it quickly and come back to it later. you clearly don't play zerg. there's absolutely no room/time for this shit. it honestly doesn't even make sense, since you're not making overlords while looking at your hatcheries. people just have to come back, see a bunch of overlords, and spread them out across the map/tuck them away if need be. Even that requires several moments' breath
How hard is sv right click?
|
On August 05 2011 03:01 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't find the overseer boring as hell. The corruptor is boring, but how is the overseer boring?
Remember when the corruptor had the ability the overseer has now?
Good times~ The corruptor had a different ability. He could corrupt a missile turret to stop if from shooting for 30 secs. Now the overseer can just stop production.
|
nice to know Dustin actually seems to get what's wrong and what's not. And I now see how hard it is to make a change! thx for writeup
|
On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with.
are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units.
And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage.
Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them.
its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself.
|
On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself.
lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas.
Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones.
|
On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:
its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself.
This statement sums up the beliefs of a disappointingly large margin of TLers.
Come on, guys.
|
On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself.
Corruptors are bad because they are an anti-air unit, are slow, and their DPS sucks and they cost way too much. Its ridiculous that you have to use mutas to clean up a lot of air units like medivacs. They are good anti-air because they are beefy, which is useless against most SC2 units because by the time corruptors kill anything the rest of your army is already dead.
Specialist units need to be able to take out other specialist units quickly, otherwise there is no point to them. This is the model they used in BW, Scourge > Vessel > Ultra/Defiler.
Scourges would be far far more useful to Zerg, not because BW > SC2, but because the unit as an AA unit makes sense when it comes to ZvX and can be used to take out specialist units quickly before they do their damage.
|
On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:
are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units.
And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage.
Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them.
its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself.
LOL
these experiments only work up to gold league
|
Chile4253 Posts
On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself.
Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out...
|
Well, I am still pissed off about the shitty ladder maps. Anyone else agree?
|
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Add some synergy for units like the corrupter. Like make it's corrupt ability be AOE or something so having a few isn't completely useless. If I get a raven and research seeker missile incase someone goes muta, does the fact them not going muta make the raven useless? Absolutely not, whereas a safe transition into corrupter just doesn't happen. In fact zerg air doesn't really mix well with zerg mid-late game ground at all. Raven, medivac, phoenix, mothership all do so why can't zerg have a unit that helps its ground army?
I have more problems with the thor as just a 'supposed to look bad ass unit' and it really should have a complete change to its look. I would prefer goliath returning and giving the viking small tweaks like splash damage and since the Colossus wouldn't be around make some tweaks to viking armor and attack type to compensate for the changes goliath would make for tvt.
There is so much Blizzard should and can change it would be a real shame if they didn't.
|
On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Add some synergy for units like the corrupter. Like make it's corrupt ability be AOE or something so having a few isn't completely useless. If I get a raven and research seeker missile incase someone goes muta, does the fact them going muta make the raven useless? Absolutely not, whereas a safe transition into corrupter just doesn't happen. In fact zerg air doesn't really mix well with zerg mid-late game ground at all. Raven, medivac, phoenix, mothership all do so why can't zerg have a unit that helps its ground army?
I have more problems with the thor as just a 'supposed to look bad ass unit' and it really should have a complete change to its look. I would prefer goliath returning and giving the viking small tweaks like splash damage and since the Colossus wouldn't be around make some tweaks to viking armor and attack type to compensate for the changes goliath would make for tvt.
There is so much Blizzard should and can change it would be a real shame if they didn't.
jesus christ dude everything you are spewing as fact is wrong and in my opinion your opinions are dumb.
|
Hmmm, the only thing I dislike about this is that while ladder (due to the matchmaking system) has a 50/50 win rate for most matchups, in tournaments it is shown through TLPD statistics that Zerg and Terran are dominating Protoss... =\
|
On August 24 2011 11:47 Sluggy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Add some synergy for units like the corrupter. Like make it's corrupt ability be AOE or something so having a few isn't completely useless. If I get a raven and research seeker missile incase someone goes muta, does the fact them going muta make the raven useless? Absolutely not, whereas a safe transition into corrupter just doesn't happen. In fact zerg air doesn't really mix well with zerg mid-late game ground at all. Raven, medivac, phoenix, mothership all do so why can't zerg have a unit that helps its ground army?
I have more problems with the thor as just a 'supposed to look bad ass unit' and it really should have a complete change to its look. I would prefer goliath returning and giving the viking small tweaks like splash damage and since the Colossus wouldn't be around make some tweaks to viking armor and attack type to compensate for the changes goliath would make for tvt.
There is so much Blizzard should and can change it would be a real shame if they didn't. jesus christ dude everything you are spewing as fact is wrong and in my opinion your opinions are dumb.
Real intellectual response there. I guess I'm just imagining the general consensus that broodwar was far more balanced. I guess I havn't heard countless pros, commentators mention that exact thing along the lines of "SC2 has only been out for a year." so on and so forth. Damn these lieing eyes(and ears.)
|
The general consensus is that either your favorite race is underpowered (idra) or that strategies are still changing too rapidly to determine what's balanced (day9).
BW had its own design problems - some units just weren't used in some match ups, and some aren't used period (scout, devourer). Like SC2, maps can be biased against/towards races. UI problems also influenced balance a lot to the point where player skill often counted more than any racial imbalance. But nonetheless it was (and probably still is) the most competitive RTS game.
|
5 Changes PLEASE (no particular order)
1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe.
2. Give Roaches Lurker upgrade on Lair tech. This makes lots of sense, they look the same and it saves worrying about having to wait for a hydra den. Also roaches are a very bland boring unit if you think about it (except burrow movement).
3. REMOVE Marauders. They are a walking stimmed tank (not really but kind of). Having no marauders would make it so people would go mech. Once again, a very bland boring unit, ground to ground, good against armor, and stim (already thought of ability).
4. MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE, make it so you cant forcefield on creep. This would lessen the IMBAness of the death ball in PvZ
5. This will most likely never happen and Its just cause i love BW mech, Change tanks to 2 supply and hellions to 1. Nerf em any way you want, just make my mech army feel more ARMY like.
|
I'm very curious about this Protoss harass unit Dustin Browder mentioned. Other than that, Blizzard needs to remove the Mothership (at the most keep it in the Single Player) and replace it with the Arbiter as well as buffing the Carrier (maybe not make it take such a long time to build). I'm also glad they are thinking of creating a siege unit for Zerg.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe.
Make hydralisk 50m/50gas or food cap decrease to 1. Problem solved.
2. Give Roaches Lurker upgrade on Lair tech. This makes lots of sense, they look the same and it saves worrying about having to wait for a hydra den. Also roaches are a very bland boring unit if you think about it (except burrow movement).
Stop think about lurkers, wtf. They can create fully new and cool unit
|
On August 24 2011 12:15 nimbus99 wrote:
5 Changes PLEASE (no particular order)
1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe.
2. Give Roaches Lurker upgrade on Lair tech. This makes lots of sense, they look the same and it saves worrying about having to wait for a hydra den. Also roaches are a very bland boring unit if you think about it (except burrow movement).
3. REMOVE Marauders. They are a walking stimmed tank (not really but kind of). Having no marauders would make it so people would go mech. Once again, a very bland boring unit, ground to ground, good against armor, and stim (already thought of ability).
4. MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE, make it so you cant forcefield on creep. This would lessen the IMBAness of the death ball in PvZ
5. This will most likely never happen and Its just cause i love BW mech, Change tanks to 2 supply and hellions to 1. Nerf em any way you want, just make my mech army feel more ARMY like.
Ok, honestly, you should go to BW.
1. Reworking hydras is fine. Give up on wishing for a speed upgrade. If anything is done, hydras will either have higher damage+higher speed for higher cost.
2. Roaches into lurkers? It wouldn't be called a lurker. Plus Blizzard said many times that roach + baneling = reason why no lurkers in SC2. You think about your race but are you thinking about other races? Requirement to counter banelings with marines is GSL skill level.
3. I hear SC:BW has no Marauders.
4. Another change favoring your race. If zerg spreads creep 24/7 and doesn't have to worry about FF, why not Terran and Protoss?
5. Tanks have been nerfed twice already because of how OP they were. Improved DPS sieged and unsieged, improved focus firing en mass, do you really think Blizzard would consider touching tanks? Hellions are meant to replace Firebats and Vultures, if a Vulture was 2 supply, why should a Hellion be 1 supply? You clearly didn't play during the era of the Roach back in beta.
|
On August 24 2011 12:15 nimbus99 wrote:
5 Changes PLEASE (no particular order)
1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe.
2. Give Roaches Lurker upgrade on Lair tech. This makes lots of sense, they look the same and it saves worrying about having to wait for a hydra den. Also roaches are a very bland boring unit if you think about it (except burrow movement).
3. REMOVE Marauders. They are a walking stimmed tank (not really but kind of). Having no marauders would make it so people would go mech. Once again, a very bland boring unit, ground to ground, good against armor, and stim (already thought of ability).
4. MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE, make it so you cant forcefield on creep. This would lessen the IMBAness of the death ball in PvZ
5. This will most likely never happen and Its just cause i love BW mech, Change tanks to 2 supply and hellions to 1. Nerf em any way you want, just make my mech army feel more ARMY like.
What Protoss death ball has sentry's in them in late game?
|
A couple of changes I would like:
1. Make infested terrans cost 50 energy. Autoturrets, which are basically the equivalent of infested terrans, cost 50 energy, and come from ravens, which are not easily massed like the infestor. In some ways, infested terrans are even better than autoturrets; autoturret's are like buildings, talking up 4 cubes of space, so its really hard to find space for them sometimes, while infested terrans can just be spawned all over the place because they aren't buildings and are like marines. Not to mention that ravens cant spawn autoturrets when burrowed or cloaked, like infestors do. Infestors fill too many roles at once (they can somewhat counter tanks with infested terran bombs or with neural parisite, counter mariens with fungal, and can counter basically every unit in the terran arsenal except for ghosts). I'm okay with infestors being able to kill marines extremely quickly with fungal growth. However, I don't think its fair to have 1 unit counter almost every unit in the terran arsenal, and making infested terrans cost 50 energy would help reduce its effectiveness.
2. Bring back khydarian amulet, but make high templars take longer to warp in, maybe 7 seconds instead of 5 so that you can't warp in storms as easily. I think this would encourage players to go the HT route instead of the collosi route, and personally I find that HT vs ghost micro is a lot more intresting than viking vs collosi a moving.
3. Slightly nerf collosi damage, maybe by like 1. This would help nudge players towards HT's instead of boring collosi.
4. Increase blink cooldown by 4, so its cooldown is 14 seconds instead of 10. I think blink stalkers are a bit too mobile and achieve to much with blink, so increasing the cooldown would help to reduce their effectiveness.
5. Take away infernal pre-ignitor for hellions. Hellions have ruined TvT with mech, and their ability to roast away so many worker so fast is just ridiculous. Removing blue flame would make hellion openings like reactor hellion expand still viable, but would make it so that they don't kill workers and stuff as fast. And this is coming from a Terran.
|
Would be interesting and make terran less "ultra-adaptable" if you couldn't switch add-ons.
|
i still dont understand why toss needs a "harass" unit. am i not the only one who thinks that DT's phoenix and instant units anywhere (a la pylon or warp prism) is not enough?
|
On August 24 2011 12:48 GypsyBeast wrote:
i still dont understand why toss needs a "harass" unit. am i not the only one who thinks that DT's phoenix and instant units anywhere (a la pylon or warp prism) is not enough?
I still wonder why packs of like 2-3 blink stalkers don't hop into mineral lines in my TvPs..
Anyway, DB's response looks good, but as a terran player I want some new stuff too D: I'm really hoping we don't get like 1 removed unit and 2 added or something lame. Sure, it's not our expansion, but i wouldn't mind being less 'complete' if it means getting some cooler more specialized units or something.
|
Why don't they ever ask about the Reaver or Colossus? I think the community as a whole hates the Colossus. It's too important, too micro unintensive, and too momentum based. The Reaver was so much more interesting, there was tons of micro with shuttles and they didn't just lump up into a ball with everything else and kill everything. I'd love to see the Colossus go and Reaver come back.
|
On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
I think the three important ones to add are: shield battery(to fix the rush based nature of PvP), goliaths(to allow for Mech TvP and maybe TvZ) and overlords with detection(3 reasons - firstly, it would provide a great dynamic in ZvP(Bisu Build-esque play), secondly it would help limit infestor harass in ZvZ, thirdly it would reduce the ability to combat banshees being entirely based on scouting luck, and other changes would make ti from making banshees entirely useless, although I wouldn't mind them being nerfed out of the game).
|
I get where he is coming from in not wanting to clutter the game with more units especially the versitle Terran army, but with a new ladder coming out for the hots expansion I feel like Terrans are going to be paying $60 just to keep multiplayer.
|
Blue Flame needs to go or workers need to not be light anymore.
|
I'm just not sure why he says it feels really bad to "ruin units" by nerfing them, when that's exactly what they did to Protoss?
I mean, really?
|
Alright, I'll play! Since I play zerg these days I'll just do it mostly from their standpoint:
1) Most important IMO, hydras needs a T3 evolution. I think the siege unit Blizzard has in mind could be a hydra evolution, that would be good for the game. As it stands hydras are such a huge gas investment, that turns into crap as soon as the opponent gets splash damage (obviously talking about mostly ZvP). It could also dynamise ZvZ, making hydras a more valid tech choice. Don't know if they'll ever be used in ZvT though.
2) Make overseers T1 and 50 gas, and make them work differently. Instead of having higher speed they should have some kind of ability that would help scouting, without making it too easy to see everything. For instance they could have a 50 energy ability that allows them to charge for a short period of time. Scouting should require skills, I'm sure they can figure out something original that would work.
3) Change the corruptor, not very original I know but they really lack something. I think instead of increasing damage, it would actually make much more sense if it decreased the DPS of the corrupted unit (and bring back energy cost instead of a reload time). And it would actually possibly help more against collossi : you would make just enough corruptors to reduce the DPS of all the collossi, focus on killing the gateway army, and only then try to focus down those giant bastards. Wouldn't it be much better, exciting, balanced and micro intensive?
|
On August 24 2011 12:28 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +1. Rework hydras (maybe speed upgrade) and make them have a cool looking projectile (imagine a hydra shooting a fast moving corrupter shot, thats bad ass) Right now Hydras have the most bland, invisible, projectile ever seen in the SC universe. Make hydralisk 50m/50gas or food cap decrease to 1. Problem solved.
And this is why people like you shouldn't be allowed to balance games. This would make ZvP incredibly imbalanced.
|
On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports:
Successes:
Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost
Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs)
Orbital/macro/planetary ideas
Supply depot idea
Banshee
Viking
Medivac
Raven (except for the unit art)
Charge
Blink
Immortals
Void Rays
Warp in/Gates
Warp Prism
Sentries
Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic
Modular zerg static defense
Queen/Abilities
Roaches
Infestors
Brood Lords
Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome)
Nydus mechanic
Failures:
Marauder (race similarity)
Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid)
Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay)
Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability)
Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability
Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy)
Corruptor
Infestor abilities could be more dynamic
Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability)
Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like)
Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability)
(maybe) Carrier not quite viable
Mothership
Need more AoE
Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable
Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP.
I think this list helps us best understand where they should go.
|
On August 24 2011 13:02 Slusher wrote:
I get where he is coming from in not wanting to clutter the game with more units especially the versitle Terran army, but with a new ladder coming out for the hots expansion I feel like Terrans are going to be paying $60 just to keep multiplayer.
It won't be 60$ most likely, more on the 30-40$ range as an expansion is usually set.
Terran will have their changes,.they might not get new units but will get new abilities and/or mechanics.
And you also pay for single player even if you don't like it.
Edit: Not sure why I post and read this thread though... lot of ridiculous suggestions or BW/SC2 rants...
|
On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent. + Show Spoiler +
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports:
Successes:
Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost
Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs)
Orbital/macro/planetary ideas
Supply depot idea
Banshee
Viking
Medivac
Raven (except for the unit art)
Charge
Blink
Immortals
Void Rays
Warp in/Gates
Warp Prism
Sentries
Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic
Modular zerg static defense
Queen/Abilities
Roaches
Infestors
Brood Lords
Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome)
Nydus mechanic
Failures:
Marauder (race similarity)
Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid)
Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay)
Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability)
Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability
Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy)
Corruptor
Infestor abilities could be more dynamic
Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability)
Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like)
Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability)
(maybe) Carrier not quite viable
Mothership
Need more AoE
Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable
Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP.
I think this list helps us best understand where they should go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
I don't understand how the Colossi or Stalker are in any way a near-exact human replica
|
Kind of stupid to say things like "now we know Browder isn't clueless." Obviously he knows a lot about the game, he's like...the lead game designer, bro. People have their narrow, biased view of the game and think that since Blizzard isn't catering to it, Blizzard must not understand their own game. What they don't realize is that Blizzard is trying to cater to a wide range of players, and in addition to that there is the inevitable time-consuming nature of developing and releasing patches.
|
On August 24 2011 13:28 Virid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent. + Show Spoiler +
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports:
Successes:
Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost
Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs)
Orbital/macro/planetary ideas
Supply depot idea
Banshee
Viking
Medivac
Raven (except for the unit art)
Charge
Blink
Immortals
Void Rays
Warp in/Gates
Warp Prism
Sentries
Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic
Modular zerg static defense
Queen/Abilities
Roaches
Infestors
Brood Lords
Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome)
Nydus mechanic
Failures:
Marauder (race similarity)
Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid)
Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay)
Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability)
Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability
Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy)
Corruptor
Infestor abilities could be more dynamic
Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability)
Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like)
Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability)
(maybe) Carrier not quite viable
Mothership
Need more AoE
Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable
Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP.
I think this list helps us best understand where they should go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valleyI don't understand how the Colossi or Stalker are in any way a near-exact human replica
Stalker - I meant WC3 / zerg aesthetics, not uncanny valley.
I was referring to the uncanny valley as in unrealistic.
Something as huge as a Thor or Colossus should have some rigidity to it, move slightly awkwardly, and feel mechanical. The Thor would never be built because it's just a silly idea. The colossus, maybe, but it looks too skinny for a protoss unit and still moves too fast.
This is sci-fi, not fantasy, we still have to obey the laws of physics.
|
On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go.
A lot of this stuff doesn't even make sense... Void rays successful? Colossus art bad? uncanny valley??? Hellions not fast enough? The lack of explanations for anything on your list really makes the whole affair rather pointless.
|
On August 24 2011 13:31 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:28 Virid wrote:On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent. + Show Spoiler +
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports:
Successes:
Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost
Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs)
Orbital/macro/planetary ideas
Supply depot idea
Banshee
Viking
Medivac
Raven (except for the unit art)
Charge
Blink
Immortals
Void Rays
Warp in/Gates
Warp Prism
Sentries
Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic
Modular zerg static defense
Queen/Abilities
Roaches
Infestors
Brood Lords
Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome)
Nydus mechanic
Failures:
Marauder (race similarity)
Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid)
Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay)
Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability)
Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability
Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy)
Corruptor
Infestor abilities could be more dynamic
Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability)
Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like)
Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability)
(maybe) Carrier not quite viable
Mothership
Need more AoE
Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable
Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP.
I think this list helps us best understand where they should go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valleyI don't understand how the Colossi or Stalker are in any way a near-exact human replica Stalker - I meant WC3 / zerg aesthetics, not uncanny valley. I was referring to the uncanny valley as in unrealistic. Something as huge as a Thor or Colossus should have some rigidity to it, move slightly awkwardly, and feel mechanical. The Thor would never be built because it's just a silly idea. The colossus, maybe, but it looks too skinny for a protoss unit and still moves too fast. This is sci-fi, not fantasy, we still have to obey the laws of physics.
Zealots and both Templar plus their archons have very sharp angles, as does the dragoon. I think your artistic taste is too personal for it to be a valid reason to change or remove a unit.
|
On August 24 2011 13:31 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:28 Virid wrote:On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent. + Show Spoiler +
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports:
Successes:
Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost
Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs)
Orbital/macro/planetary ideas
Supply depot idea
Banshee
Viking
Medivac
Raven (except for the unit art)
Charge
Blink
Immortals
Void Rays
Warp in/Gates
Warp Prism
Sentries
Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic
Modular zerg static defense
Queen/Abilities
Roaches
Infestors
Brood Lords
Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome)
Nydus mechanic
Failures:
Marauder (race similarity)
Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid)
Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay)
Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability)
Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability
Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy)
Corruptor
Infestor abilities could be more dynamic
Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability)
Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like)
Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability)
(maybe) Carrier not quite viable
Mothership
Need more AoE
Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable
Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP.
I think this list helps us best understand where they should go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valleyI don't understand how the Colossi or Stalker are in any way a near-exact human replica Stalker - I meant WC3 / zerg aesthetics, not uncanny valley. I was referring to the uncanny valley as in unrealistic. Something as huge as a Thor or Colossus should have some rigidity to it, move slightly awkwardly, and feel mechanical. The Thor would never be built because it's just a silly idea. The colossus, maybe, but it looks too skinny for a protoss unit and still moves too fast. This is sci-fi, not fantasy, we still have to obey the laws of physics.
That's not what "uncanny valley" means, though. If you're going to use an obscure term that most people will have to wikipedia, you should use it right.
Also mutas flying in space. gg Physics.
|
art for colossi is fine. art for stalker could've been a little less zergy (don't get the mandibles hanging off the front), but on the other hand they're dark templar and dark templar have a different visual aesthetic than aiur protoss so i don't think about it that much. i don't think there's much of anything wrong with the game visually, honestly they pretty much nailed it.
|
On August 24 2011 13:32 Fleebenworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. A lot of this stuff doesn't even make sense... Void rays successful? Colossus art bad? uncanny valley??? Hellions not fast enough? The lack of explanations for anything on your list really makes the whole affair rather pointless.
The colossus just doesn't make sense within starcraft, feels very out of place how fast it moves and how little tiny legs it has break forcefields but an immortal doesn't.
I agree with most of his listed failures, especially about AOE. In sc1 units would naturally stay out of 'ball' formation so we didn't have to worry as much about tightly clumped units beating higher tech units unable to clump up. In SC2 aoe needs to be more frequent so that better players spread their stuff out and hopefully that will raise the skill ceiling back up to somewhere respectable.
|
On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go.
Roaches should be on the failure list, they should've kept hydras t1 and never added that incredibly boring unit. Also i don't like how FF's are part of the protoss core, you cannot win a battle without it early game but when you get into mid game it turns into this incredibly abusable spell because you can spam it all over the place, make it at least 100 energy but buff up the stalker to compensate.
Other than that i agree with most of your points, some of the art i don't care much about and the hellion doesn't need to be faster (they should give it mines instead of blueflame though).
|
Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid)
LOL you spend a lifetime writing a post worthy of a thesis.. ok slightly exaggerated, and you say the hellion is not fast enough? Have you even watched a pro level game of starcraft 2 in the past 2 months?
|
On August 24 2011 13:30 Doodsmack wrote:What they don't realize is that Blizzard is trying to cater to a wide range of players
Every time I hear this argument I face palm. If you make it a priority to balance the game for the highest level of play (limited ways to do this), and then add coolness factor (SEVERAL ways to do this), you generally get a better end result.
|
On August 24 2011 13:44 Eko200 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:32 Fleebenworth wrote:On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. A lot of this stuff doesn't even make sense... Void rays successful? Colossus art bad? uncanny valley??? Hellions not fast enough? The lack of explanations for anything on your list really makes the whole affair rather pointless. The colossus just doesn't make sense within starcraft, feels very out of place how fast it moves and how little tiny legs it has break forcefields but an immortal doesn't.
i don't see why. the units aren't to scale, none of them, it was that way in sc1 too because you can't have a battlecruiser the size of a small town on the same screen as a marine or a zergling and expect to make any sense of it as far as playing the game is concerned - but the colossus is obviously meant to be much bigger than it actually appears in-game. these things are the height of skyscrapers, and while their legs are skinny relative to the "head" they'd probably be huge to stand next to. anyway colossi are as sci-fi as it gets, blame war of the worlds if you think they don't belong.
|
On August 24 2011 13:52 Doc Daneeka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:44 Eko200 wrote:On August 24 2011 13:32 Fleebenworth wrote:On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. A lot of this stuff doesn't even make sense... Void rays successful? Colossus art bad? uncanny valley??? Hellions not fast enough? The lack of explanations for anything on your list really makes the whole affair rather pointless. The colossus just doesn't make sense within starcraft, feels very out of place how fast it moves and how little tiny legs it has break forcefields but an immortal doesn't. i don't see why. the units aren't to scale, none of them, it was that way in sc1 too because you can't have a battlecruiser the size of a small town on the same screen as a marine or a zergling and expect to make any sense of it as far as playing the game is concerned - but the colossus is obviously meant to be much bigger than it actually appears in-game. these things are the height of skyscrapers, and while their legs are skinny relative to the "head" they'd probably be huge to stand next to. anyway colossi are as sci-fi as it gets, blame war of the worlds if you think they don't belong.
My problem with colossus has more to do with gameplay, they just aren't very interesting to use or watch, which I think a lot of people will agree on. The reaver is a much more interesting unit both to watch and to use as it requires much more micro to use, is a good defensive unit and is great for harassment(finally a use for the warp prism which is awesome btw).
|
On August 24 2011 13:48 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. Roaches should be on the failure list, they should've kept hydras t1 and never added that incredibly boring unit. Also i don't like how FF's are part of the protoss core, you cannot win a battle without it early game but when you get into mid game it turns into this incredibly abusable spell because you can spam it all over the place, make it at least 100 energy but buff up the stalker to compensate. Other than that i agree with most of your points, some of the art i don't care much about and the hellion doesn't need to be faster (they should give it mines instead of blueflame though).
Uncanny valley? You mean the colossus and thor look so much like humans that you almost can't tell but subconsciously you know it's NOT REALLY ALIVE?? That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means...
|
On August 24 2011 10:46 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas. Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones.
not really. if you're making corruptors anyway, there are uses for them BESIDES the simple ones that everyone can see.
Ever corrupt a line of 10 stalkers trying to meatshield for colossi and watch them insta-disappear? Its great for you, bad for the colossi who just lost the meat buffer.
Ever go against a terran who's abusing the good old stim and run away through a spread of tanks? Hi medivacs, meet corruptor. Dead medivac, marines that have double stimmed and wasted the stim power, and now are at half health when your army catches up and squishes them.
On August 24 2011 10:58 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out...
whats wrong with you? A mod necro'd a years old thread about the memphis 3 because there was a relevant update to the story. this is only 20 days old? Exactly. Its not even old at all. its still relevant. Not just that, but what I posted was on topic with the thread. what you posted was not, and is useless.
|
On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid)Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go.
You play terran? Oh, you wouldn't tell...
|
On August 24 2011 13:56 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:52 Doc Daneeka wrote:On August 24 2011 13:44 Eko200 wrote:On August 24 2011 13:32 Fleebenworth wrote:On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. A lot of this stuff doesn't even make sense... Void rays successful? Colossus art bad? uncanny valley??? Hellions not fast enough? The lack of explanations for anything on your list really makes the whole affair rather pointless. The colossus just doesn't make sense within starcraft, feels very out of place how fast it moves and how little tiny legs it has break forcefields but an immortal doesn't. i don't see why. the units aren't to scale, none of them, it was that way in sc1 too because you can't have a battlecruiser the size of a small town on the same screen as a marine or a zergling and expect to make any sense of it as far as playing the game is concerned - but the colossus is obviously meant to be much bigger than it actually appears in-game. these things are the height of skyscrapers, and while their legs are skinny relative to the "head" they'd probably be huge to stand next to. anyway colossi are as sci-fi as it gets, blame war of the worlds if you think they don't belong. My problem with colossus has more to do with gameplay, they just aren't very interesting to use or watch, which I think a lot of people will agree on. The reaver is a much more interesting unit both to watch and to use as it requires much more micro to use, is a good defensive unit and is great for harassment(finally a use for the warp prism which is awesome btw).
Lusty Dusty stated in the interview where he went through all the things they did on SC2 and why, that colossus are meant to be "a scary raider that crawls up into your base and starts destroying things". Which is a cool idea. but its just that. People don't send lone colossi to kill stuff. People via metagame always get BALLS. and then they smash each other's balls into each other to decide victory. Thats just how it is.
Now, I can see there being a good use of colossi sitting outside someones base and you bringing two loads of zealots in WPs to drop them in his nat and then crawl the colossi up into his main, but still, thats a lot more work for a player than just turtling to 200.
On August 24 2011 13:48 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:22 0neder wrote:On August 24 2011 11:42 Eko200 wrote:
Unit design is just so awful in SC2 to be honest. Colossus, Mothership, Helion, Marauder, Corrupter, Thor, Roach and not to mention a lack of units in general for zerg.
They should ditch units like the Collossus, Helion, and Marauder for a broodwar equivalent.
Blizzard and Dustin did pretty well I think. Here's where I think they can perfect SC2 for players and for esports: Successes:Ghosts - snipe / emp / nuke / cost Reaper (yes I think this will be viable and deadly mid-late game eventually (qxc medivacs) Orbital/macro/planetary ideas Supply depot idea Banshee Viking Medivac Raven (except for the unit art) Charge Blink Immortals Void Rays Warp in/Gates Warp Prism Sentries Creep Tumor/Spread Mechanic Modular zerg static defense Queen/Abilities Roaches Infestors Brood Lords Overseers (yes, still think contaminate is awesome) Nydus mechanic Failures:Marauder (race similarity) Hellion (not horrible, but not fast enough and the wheels are stupid) Thor (both aesthetically uncanny valley and gameplay) Spell Animations (they should exist for skill ceiling and readability) Spine Crawler attacking above ground (looks silly and doesn't improve readability Hydras / lack of 1 supply massable zerg unit (needs to be more swarmy) Corruptor Infestor abilities could be more dynamic Ultra (not as a unit, but in stats, size, and viability) Stalker Art (too sharp/fantasy/zerg-like) Colossus (art/uncanny valley / gameplay/ bad for readability) (maybe) Carrier not quite viable Mothership Need more AoE Need less 6-8 supply units that aren't viable Warp gates should be slightly higher cooldown than gateways - more strategic variety, helps PvP. I think this list helps us best understand where they should go. Roaches should be on the failure list, they should've kept hydras t1 and never added that incredibly boring unit. Also i don't like how FF's are part of the protoss core, you cannot win a battle without it early game but when you get into mid game it turns into this incredibly abusable spell because you can spam it all over the place, make it at least 100 energy but buff up the stalker to compensate. Other than that i agree with most of your points, some of the art i don't care much about and the hellion doesn't need to be faster (they should give it mines instead of blueflame though).
Unfortunately everything in SC2 has a reason, according to dusty. He stated that they worked for many weeks trying to get units that it would sometimes make sense to move again for another shot, like the hellion. The roach is probably designed for the same issue, since its range is shit. Also, DB stated that burrow and tunnel claws are there to give the roach 3 different uses. I don't know about you guys but tunnel claws and burrow fail me all the time. I've won a game decisively about twice or thrice with this mechanic, the terran just wasnt prepared. Otherwise I've been crushed absolutely every time I tried to use burrow and/or tunnel to my advantage vs T or Ps. its just not as powerful as he thinks it is. Thats the problem with zerg as a whole. its either a landslide victory or a landslide loss, and thats an entire design flaw, not a mechanic or balance one.
as an addition, I also agree that warp gates should have a higher cooldown time. It doesn't make sense that the upgrade is the first thing to go for, and then people dont use gateways for the rest of the game. Its a rush to warp gate every time.
Warp gates = make your units come out twice as fast, make them come out BEFORE the time-cost of building, and can be spammed ANYWHERE on the map.
Its pure 100% gains for the warpgate mechanic for a comparatively cheap upgrade. Imagine if the nydus could also spam produce units and spit them out anywhere. It can't. it does one or the other.
you know what I'm all for? Switching the timings between warp gate and gateway, so that keeping gateways makes sense, but also puts your units in your base, whereas warpgates make sense when you want to bring units to the front quickly with a proxy pylon or WP, but then you cant reinforce nearly as fast.
I'm tired of getting spammed by proxy pylon warp ins faster than I can produce units to counter it.
8 stalkers beats 8 roaches at 6 minutes. its true.
|
My only wish is that people realize SCII is a completely different game then BW. I understand there are obvious similarities but if you want to play BW, go play BW. They need to feel different at some level and I think it has had great success while there are obvious design or balance flaws. A lot of people suggest giving utility to units identical to BW, although this is a decent idea, there is really nothing completely broken which makes the game unplayable to resort to remaking BW.
|
On August 25 2011 03:21 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 10:46 blade55555 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas. Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones. not really. if you're making corruptors anyway, there are uses for them BESIDES the simple ones that everyone can see. Ever corrupt a line of 10 stalkers trying to meatshield for colossi and watch them insta-disappear? Its great for you, bad for the colossi who just lost the meat buffer. Ever go against a terran who's abusing the good old stim and run away through a spread of tanks? Hi medivacs, meet corruptor. Dead medivac, marines that have double stimmed and wasted the stim power, and now are at half health when your army catches up and squishes them. Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 10:58 Zato-1 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out... whats wrong with you? A mod necro'd a years old thread about the memphis 3 because there was a relevant update to the story. this is only 20 days old? Exactly. Its not even old at all. its still relevant. Not just that, but what I posted was on topic with the thread. what you posted was not, and is useless.
Sorry if you played at a higher level of play you would see just how much more you need gas. Making corruptors just to corrupt thors just isn't worth the gas when again, you are already gas starved. You are using it so that you can do 20% more damage to 1 unit then its completely useless. That is not worth 150 minerals/ 100 gas, especially the gas as again you are already gas starved to where you don't want to waste it on a corruptor just so you can do a 20% more damage to a unit.
And you sound like you make more then one so the players you are playing are probably not that good as you are delaying your upgrades, less banelings (vs terran), less infestors/roaches (vs protoss or zerg).
If you are making corruptors anyway of course you want to use the corrupt ability never said not to. But if you are just making corruptors to do 20% more damage to thors that is such a huge waste of gas lol.
As for the killing medivacs, yeah I use muta to kill medivacs if a terran abandons them what zerg doesn't? I would rather have that extra muta then a useless corruptor that can do 1 corrupt every 45 seconds. that just doesn't make sense to me when you said that lol.
|
On August 25 2011 03:42 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 03:21 Truedot wrote:On August 24 2011 10:46 blade55555 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas. Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones. not really. if you're making corruptors anyway, there are uses for them BESIDES the simple ones that everyone can see. Ever corrupt a line of 10 stalkers trying to meatshield for colossi and watch them insta-disappear? Its great for you, bad for the colossi who just lost the meat buffer. Ever go against a terran who's abusing the good old stim and run away through a spread of tanks? Hi medivacs, meet corruptor. Dead medivac, marines that have double stimmed and wasted the stim power, and now are at half health when your army catches up and squishes them. On August 24 2011 10:58 Zato-1 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out... whats wrong with you? A mod necro'd a years old thread about the memphis 3 because there was a relevant update to the story. this is only 20 days old? Exactly. Its not even old at all. its still relevant. Not just that, but what I posted was on topic with the thread. what you posted was not, and is useless. Sorry if you played at a higher level of play you would see just how much more you need gas. Making corruptors just to corrupt thors just isn't worth the gas when again, you are already gas starved. You are using it so that you can do 20% more damage to 1 unit then its completely useless. That is not worth 150 minerals/ 100 gas, especially the gas as again you are already gas starved to where you don't want to waste it on a corruptor just so you can do a 20% more damage to a unit. And you sound like you make more then one so the players you are playing are probably not that good as you are delaying your upgrades, less banelings (vs terran), less infestors/roaches (vs protoss or zerg). If you are making corruptors anyway of course you want to use the corrupt ability never said not to. But if you are just making corruptors to do 20% more damage to thors that is such a huge waste of gas lol. As for the killing medivacs, yeah I use muta to kill medivacs if a terran abandons them what zerg doesn't? I would rather have that extra muta then a useless corruptor that can do 1 corrupt every 45 seconds.
+20% damage on a thor. a roach dies, morph corruptor into BL.
Stop your theorycraft, its obvious you don't actually play at high level.
mutas and corruptors cost the same gas. corruptors can actually fight in a ball, and have higher dps than mutae.
|
On August 25 2011 03:40 Trealador wrote:
A lot of people suggest giving utility to units identical to BW, although this is a decent idea, there is really nothing completely broken which makes the game unplayable to resort to remaking BW.
It's not about balance anymore. Balance is there.
It's about increasing player enjoyment with more exciting units and more unit variety.
It's about improving watchability and excitement for spectators.
Attracting fans of the original Korean e-sport with a few more beloved BW units would just be a nice bonus.
|
All I want is a unit that can actually fight marine tank. With proper marine control there's no way you'll ever get your banelings to kill enough marines so that your mutalisks don't end up dying.
|
the problem i see with this: Protoss has already the strongest ways to get ground units into your base, be it pylons that can be abused to warp to high ground/hidden up there or warp prisms (who don't even cost gas!). So if Protoss gets a strong harass unit i can imagine that being way too effective (warp in DT/Zealots are already pretty strong in taking down mineral lines/expos, HT in warp prisma becomes popular too). Not to forget the almighty blink stalker ist the incarnation of harassment
|
Yeah, Zerg should get Infested Siege Tanks. Exactly like siege tanks except you can make tons of 'em at once (larvae), and they get even LONGER range on creep.
That's what I think when I hear about a Zerg siege unit... except for, y'know, Lurkers.
|
On August 25 2011 03:40 Trealador wrote:
My only wish is that people realize SCII is a completely different game then BW. I understand there are obvious similarities but if you want to play BW, go play BW. They need to feel different at some level and I think it has had great success while there are obvious design or balance flaws. A lot of people suggest giving utility to units identical to BW, although this is a decent idea, there is really nothing completely broken which makes the game unplayable to resort to remaking BW.
Its people like you I can never seem to figure out. Its like saying "Tetris 2000 is different from vanilla tetris, its vastly different to the point it cant be compared". Fact is, SC2 is not "completely different". Sure its not identical, but you make it out to be as different as pong and halo.
That said, I would like to see micro intensive units added for all races, or upgrades that make units have a relationship with one another (similar to marines/banes).
|
On August 25 2011 03:45 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 03:42 blade55555 wrote:On August 25 2011 03:21 Truedot wrote:On August 24 2011 10:46 blade55555 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas. Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones. not really. if you're making corruptors anyway, there are uses for them BESIDES the simple ones that everyone can see. Ever corrupt a line of 10 stalkers trying to meatshield for colossi and watch them insta-disappear? Its great for you, bad for the colossi who just lost the meat buffer. Ever go against a terran who's abusing the good old stim and run away through a spread of tanks? Hi medivacs, meet corruptor. Dead medivac, marines that have double stimmed and wasted the stim power, and now are at half health when your army catches up and squishes them. On August 24 2011 10:58 Zato-1 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out... whats wrong with you? A mod necro'd a years old thread about the memphis 3 because there was a relevant update to the story. this is only 20 days old? Exactly. Its not even old at all. its still relevant. Not just that, but what I posted was on topic with the thread. what you posted was not, and is useless. Sorry if you played at a higher level of play you would see just how much more you need gas. Making corruptors just to corrupt thors just isn't worth the gas when again, you are already gas starved. You are using it so that you can do 20% more damage to 1 unit then its completely useless. That is not worth 150 minerals/ 100 gas, especially the gas as again you are already gas starved to where you don't want to waste it on a corruptor just so you can do a 20% more damage to a unit. And you sound like you make more then one so the players you are playing are probably not that good as you are delaying your upgrades, less banelings (vs terran), less infestors/roaches (vs protoss or zerg). If you are making corruptors anyway of course you want to use the corrupt ability never said not to. But if you are just making corruptors to do 20% more damage to thors that is such a huge waste of gas lol. As for the killing medivacs, yeah I use muta to kill medivacs if a terran abandons them what zerg doesn't? I would rather have that extra muta then a useless corruptor that can do 1 corrupt every 45 seconds. +20% damage on a thor. a roach dies, morph corruptor into BL. Stop your theorycraft, its obvious you don't actually play at high level. mutas and corruptors cost the same gas. corruptors can actually fight in a ball, and have higher dps than mutae.
I'm sorry. But LOL this guy saying blade5555 doesn't play a high level.
Also, corruptors can't put any pressure on yoru opponent like mutas for the gas price. They are also slower and perform any role on their own.
|
I just really want lurkers, or something that offers the same thing. Lurkers could be aggressive or defensive. A professional player could use lurkers to stall a push for nearly five minutes. A bad player would lose them in the first scan. You could go all-in and drop them, or use them to defend an early fourth. Love the unit.
Banelings are bad in design. As players get better, banelings get worse. They rely on imperfect play to a degree where it is actually possible to defeat banelings effectively.
|
multi-region play
replay watching online with friends
seriously...
|
On August 25 2011 03:45 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 03:42 blade55555 wrote:On August 25 2011 03:21 Truedot wrote:On August 24 2011 10:46 blade55555 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas. Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones. not really. if you're making corruptors anyway, there are uses for them BESIDES the simple ones that everyone can see. Ever corrupt a line of 10 stalkers trying to meatshield for colossi and watch them insta-disappear? Its great for you, bad for the colossi who just lost the meat buffer. Ever go against a terran who's abusing the good old stim and run away through a spread of tanks? Hi medivacs, meet corruptor. Dead medivac, marines that have double stimmed and wasted the stim power, and now are at half health when your army catches up and squishes them. On August 24 2011 10:58 Zato-1 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out... whats wrong with you? A mod necro'd a years old thread about the memphis 3 because there was a relevant update to the story. this is only 20 days old? Exactly. Its not even old at all. its still relevant. Not just that, but what I posted was on topic with the thread. what you posted was not, and is useless. Sorry if you played at a higher level of play you would see just how much more you need gas. Making corruptors just to corrupt thors just isn't worth the gas when again, you are already gas starved. You are using it so that you can do 20% more damage to 1 unit then its completely useless. That is not worth 150 minerals/ 100 gas, especially the gas as again you are already gas starved to where you don't want to waste it on a corruptor just so you can do a 20% more damage to a unit. And you sound like you make more then one so the players you are playing are probably not that good as you are delaying your upgrades, less banelings (vs terran), less infestors/roaches (vs protoss or zerg). If you are making corruptors anyway of course you want to use the corrupt ability never said not to. But if you are just making corruptors to do 20% more damage to thors that is such a huge waste of gas lol. As for the killing medivacs, yeah I use muta to kill medivacs if a terran abandons them what zerg doesn't? I would rather have that extra muta then a useless corruptor that can do 1 corrupt every 45 seconds. +20% damage on a thor. a roach dies, morph corruptor into BL. Stop your theorycraft, its obvious you don't actually play at high level. mutas and corruptors cost the same gas. corruptors can actually fight in a ball, and have higher dps than mutae.
um I play Na pro's all the time, I made finals of the zotac cup taking a game off of TSL revival and beating some known players. I don't consider myself a pro no but I do play a lot of known names (fenix/stalife/major/etc).
Its not even theorycraft, its just a fact lol. You want to know why muta's are better? They can harass the terran base, they can attack both air and ground. Yeah I would definitely prefer a corruptor to do 1 corrupt on a thor and attack medivics/vikings with.
|
IMO great point about the corrupter, but i'm not sure that toss needs a raiding unit: DTs, and warp prisms are enough IMO and ofc phoenix, its just that people haven't really gotten used to using warp prisms. Also I think browder should be careful about giving z a siege unit, blords kinda already are...
also because of the value of this post I think the dustin brawler deserves to be re-introduced to sotis... i really miss it
|
On August 25 2011 03:54 Joey Wheeler wrote:
All I want is a unit that can actually fight marine tank. With proper marine control there's no way you'll ever get your banelings to kill enough marines so that your mutalisks don't end up dying.
Zerg need a 1 supply unit like the hydra from BW. Whatever that is. I say roach or hydras and adjust stats accordingly.
|
Even dev team said many units needs to be changed -_-, its ok for now but in 1-2-3years you gonna puke because those units are already discovered and are boring as hell, 1 dimensional 1a units are not the future of esports.
Its not about making BW clone, its about using already discovered successful patterns that made BW eternal(relatively to other games). Its up to dev team if they want to spice it up, but completely reverting things that were more than ok to achieve superficial balance is lost cause. I say again don't look at this matter how it is working now but how the hell are you gonna enjoy playing/watching starcraft in future.
|
Any unit in the game can be and is a raiding unit.
|
On August 25 2011 03:51 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 03:40 Trealador wrote:
A lot of people suggest giving utility to units identical to BW, although this is a decent idea, there is really nothing completely broken which makes the game unplayable to resort to remaking BW. It's not about balance anymore. Balance is there. It's about increasing player enjoyment with more exciting units and more unit variety. It's about improving watchability and excitement for spectators. Attracting fans of the original Korean e-sport with a few more beloved BW units would just be a nice bonus.
I don't think making SC2 a toned downed BW will attract any of the BW fans :\
|
On August 25 2011 03:56 Cirqueenflex wrote:
the problem i see with this: Protoss has already the strongest ways to get ground units into your base, be it pylons that can be abused to warp to high ground/hidden up there or warp prisms (who don't even cost gas!). So if Protoss gets a strong harass unit i can imagine that being way too effective (warp in DT/Zealots are already pretty strong in taking down mineral lines/expos, HT in warp prisma becomes popular too). Not to forget the almighty blink stalker ist the incarnation of harassment
Protoss has by far the least amount of harassment options. DT's and Zealots are terrible for harassment if your opponent is competent. Every type of Protoss harassment is far more cost inefficient than any Zerg or Terran harass, so they are much overdo for a real harass option.
|
On August 25 2011 04:05 tsarnicky wrote:
IMO great point about the corrupter, but i'm not sure that toss needs a raiding unit: DTs, and warp prisms are enough IMO and ofc phoenix, its just that people haven't really gotten used to using warp prisms.
I take it you don't play many games as toss...
Prisms are just a transport unit... you know like one that every race has also. It's just flimsy and a piece of shit... i mean one transport is strong and heals units, one provides supply and can evolve into a spell-using detector, and one is made of glass and can provide a teeny-tiny area to warp in units. Which would you prefer to have, as a race?
Also, DTs are near-useless after detection is in play (basically after the 6 minute mark), and phoenix are a bitch to micro for harassing (they're only good for "harassing" zerg queens and overlords, hardly what I'd consider a decent harass unit).
I, for one, welcome our new protoss harass-unit overlords...
|
It seems I was right with my opinion about David Kim.
He clearly doesn't have any clue how to balance that game. In fact, Dustin has spoken about most of all the problems we currently have and which is possibly the best way to fix this but somehow I always read bullshit in the upcoming patches.
Instead I must hear his awkward opinions of the game:"Units such as the Mothership are only for casual players". Season 3 maps were just the icing of the cake....
I could puke everytime I see this fucking interview
I'am glad that Dustin Browder is the Lead Designer of Starcraft 2 cuz he is the reason why this game isn't totally rubbish in terms of Game Design/Balance.
|
On August 25 2011 03:45 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 03:42 blade55555 wrote:On August 25 2011 03:21 Truedot wrote:On August 24 2011 10:46 blade55555 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas. Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones. not really. if you're making corruptors anyway, there are uses for them BESIDES the simple ones that everyone can see. Ever corrupt a line of 10 stalkers trying to meatshield for colossi and watch them insta-disappear? Its great for you, bad for the colossi who just lost the meat buffer. Ever go against a terran who's abusing the good old stim and run away through a spread of tanks? Hi medivacs, meet corruptor. Dead medivac, marines that have double stimmed and wasted the stim power, and now are at half health when your army catches up and squishes them. On August 24 2011 10:58 Zato-1 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out... whats wrong with you? A mod necro'd a years old thread about the memphis 3 because there was a relevant update to the story. this is only 20 days old? Exactly. Its not even old at all. its still relevant. Not just that, but what I posted was on topic with the thread. what you posted was not, and is useless. Sorry if you played at a higher level of play you would see just how much more you need gas. Making corruptors just to corrupt thors just isn't worth the gas when again, you are already gas starved. You are using it so that you can do 20% more damage to 1 unit then its completely useless. That is not worth 150 minerals/ 100 gas, especially the gas as again you are already gas starved to where you don't want to waste it on a corruptor just so you can do a 20% more damage to a unit. And you sound like you make more then one so the players you are playing are probably not that good as you are delaying your upgrades, less banelings (vs terran), less infestors/roaches (vs protoss or zerg). If you are making corruptors anyway of course you want to use the corrupt ability never said not to. But if you are just making corruptors to do 20% more damage to thors that is such a huge waste of gas lol. As for the killing medivacs, yeah I use muta to kill medivacs if a terran abandons them what zerg doesn't? I would rather have that extra muta then a useless corruptor that can do 1 corrupt every 45 seconds. +20% damage on a thor. a roach dies, morph corruptor into BL. Stop your theorycraft, its obvious you don't actually play at high level. mutas and corruptors cost the same gas. corruptors can actually fight in a ball, and have higher dps than mutae.
Ehem, mutas actually have higher dps than corruptors unless you are fighting a massive unit (which in most cases only counts for the colossus in zerg matchups). I think you believe damage pr shot equals dps, which it doesnt. And the main point of the corruptor is that its purerly a unit you make to counter specific types of units... it doesnt bring anything to the table itself, you cant make any cool tactics with it.
Personally I am very glad they are taking a good look at both the corruptor and the overseer. Those two units have been my biggest gripe with zerg since beta.
Other units I think need tweeks are: Ultralisk (there are so few cases which this unit can excel cost effectively... 90% of units in the game even kill it cost effectively if microed... whats its role? A broodlord is nearly always better)... Hydralisk (This isnt as bad as the Corruptor but its also a "I build this to counter that" type of unit since it has nearly no aggressive potential, and its way too expensive for a pure dps unit with no special ability. A pack of 20 stimmed marines do about 460 dps, while 7-8 hydras, the equvivalent in cost, do about 160-170 dps, they are slower, have less health combined.... I dont see any plus side to the hydra other than the ability to shoot up. A high cost generic unit like that needs to be microable at least, but alas it is so slow... Lastly the baneling is a problem. The better people get at the game, the less valuable they become. We already see that terrans can cost effectively kill banelings with marines, even if the zerg is microing banelings well, and it will only become worse.)
I just hope every race gets more refined with HoTS. But I somewhat agree with Browder. Terran is a more "finished" race than the other races... very well designed race, with lots of syngergy between different types of units. I still hope they get some smaller cool tweaks, but in a lesser degree than Z and P.
|
On August 25 2011 04:27 Mentymion wrote:
It seems I was right with my opinion about David Kim.
He clearly doesn't have any clue how to balance that game. In fact, Dustin has spoken about most of all the problems we currently have and which is possibly the best way to fix this but somehow I always read bullshit in the upcoming patches.
Instead I must hear his awkward opinions of the game:"Units such as the Mothership are only for casual players". Season 3 maps were just the icing of the cake....
I could puke everytime I see this fucking interview
I'am glad that Dustin Browder is the Lead Designer of Starcraft 2 cuz he is the reason why this game isn't totally rubbish in terms of Game Design/Balance.
He's responsible for units such as
Colossus
Marauder
Roach
Current Hydra
Corrupter
Immortal
So he sure as hell isn't free from any fault, sorry.
|
Dustin Browder answering questions like a baws! On a serious note it is comforting to see that he personally knows a lot about how the game feels.
|
On August 24 2011 13:52 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:30 Doodsmack wrote:What they don't realize is that Blizzard is trying to cater to a wide range of players Every time I hear this argument I face palm. If you make it a priority to balance the game for the highest level of play (limited ways to do this), and then add coolness factor (SEVERAL ways to do this), you generally get a better end result.
Lol I'll take your word for it. You certainly explained your argument well.
|
Some of you just need to play SC2BW and leave it at that. You want Brood War in the SC2 engine, and guess what, you can have it, to your hearts content!
For those of us who actually want to play StarCraft 2, and not Brood War, most of what Browder is saying is good. Don't gut the game and remake Brood War. Flesh out Protoss and Zerg, maybe flesh out some lame units (I'd rather they FIX the lame units then get rid of them), and then move on to Legacy of the Void.
(If Blizzard gets rid of infestors, I'd be super sad, as they are my favorite unit. I doubt it happens though. If anything, they'll make fungal an upgrade like storm, and maybe get rid of pathogen glands.)
|
On August 25 2011 04:32 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 04:27 Mentymion wrote:
It seems I was right with my opinion about David Kim.
He clearly doesn't have any clue how to balance that game. In fact, Dustin has spoken about most of all the problems we currently have and which is possibly the best way to fix this but somehow I always read bullshit in the upcoming patches.
Instead I must hear his awkward opinions of the game:"Units such as the Mothership are only for casual players". Season 3 maps were just the icing of the cake....
I could puke everytime I see this fucking interview
I'am glad that Dustin Browder is the Lead Designer of Starcraft 2 cuz he is the reason why this game isn't totally rubbish in terms of Game Design/Balance.
He's responsible for units such as Colossus Marauder Roach Current Hydra Corrupter Immortal So he sure as hell isn't free from any fault, sorry.
The Design of the Colossus is awesome. They simply changed to much such as the diffrent Attack Animation. The Roach fits the Zerg Designwise but was simply ordered to be the Dragoon in disguise for the general counter to Armored Units. Even then, what do you want as the 1,5 Tier Unit for Zerg ? Hydras like in Bw ? Then Zerg would be utterly broken cuz Hellions would rip you apart. The Corrupter was kinda a fail and the Reaper , too. BUT HE ADMITS THAT! Also, in Game Design, not every unit will turn out to be a genuis Lurker or Reaver. Some units will work, other units won't.
Btw. The current Hydra is the ideal example why David Kim won't even try to fix something. So many people would like to see a Speed buff or general stats to be boosted..You see nothing!
Carriers ? Hey it's just a Casual unit!....I haven't seen a buff since the fucking Beta!!!???
Instead i see:
Patch1.1
Build time for Bunkers is now 40 secs.
Patch1.2
Build time for Bunkers is now 45 secs.
Patch1.3
Build time for Bunkers is now 40 secs.
Patch1.4
Build time for Bunkers is now 45 secs.
Then FINALLY as aProtoss player I see LIGHTNING!!!!!! They will adress PvP!! Hell yessss!!!
PRT: Zealot,Sentrys and Stalker get a 5sec. reduced build time for +20secs for Warpgates ! Cool..
well, what I get was Sentrys 5sec. earlier ..and +20secs for warpgates.....2 weeks later. Nothing had changed, in fact it became even worse. Last patch was Season 3 maps....meeeeeh -_-
|
On August 25 2011 04:05 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 03:54 Joey Wheeler wrote:
All I want is a unit that can actually fight marine tank. With proper marine control there's no way you'll ever get your banelings to kill enough marines so that your mutalisks don't end up dying. Zerg need a 1 supply unit like the hydra from BW. Whatever that is. I say roach or hydras and adjust stats accordingly.
Remember that roaches were a 1 supply unit, to fit within the framework of zerg being both the swarm race and having a strong tank screen. They fit this role far less, which is why zerg cant be viable on the ground against specific T or P combos, hence the deathballs. If roach was 1 supply again, it MIGHT be able to swarm a deathballa nd bring it down. If roach had its above ground regen bonus tech, it MIGHT be able to swarm a deathball and bring it down.
The games units were all designed around each other. roach was designed as a unit that would TANK through regen and through high HP and through their large size compared to their low supply cost (splash reasons).
WHen you half the number of roaches that can be fielded, they lose that role. When you take away the regen, you can lose that role.
Were roaches broken? Yes. But they nerfed it over and over, now that thats done, maybe we can get them back to one supply?
On August 25 2011 04:31 Ravnemesteren wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 03:45 Truedot wrote:On August 25 2011 03:42 blade55555 wrote:On August 25 2011 03:21 Truedot wrote:On August 24 2011 10:46 blade55555 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. lol the reason people don't make a corruptor a thor (pro's) is because there is a lot of better things to use the gas on. That is such a huge waste of gas because if you are making 3 corruptors for 3 thors thats 300 gas that could be used on muta's/infestors (especially if he's going mech you want infestors). Thats just a huge waste of gas. Zerg is already gas starved and wasting 100 gas on a corruptor for "corrupt" on 1 thor is just a huge waste, because again zerg is always starving for gas unless you don't make enough drones. not really. if you're making corruptors anyway, there are uses for them BESIDES the simple ones that everyone can see. Ever corrupt a line of 10 stalkers trying to meatshield for colossi and watch them insta-disappear? Its great for you, bad for the colossi who just lost the meat buffer. Ever go against a terran who's abusing the good old stim and run away through a spread of tanks? Hi medivacs, meet corruptor. Dead medivac, marines that have double stimmed and wasted the stim power, and now are at half health when your army catches up and squishes them. On August 24 2011 10:58 Zato-1 wrote:On August 24 2011 10:41 Truedot wrote:On August 02 2011 11:31 RaLakedaimon wrote:
I like the idea of removing some units that just suck such as the corrupter, seeing all those useless things floating around if a P tech switches is a huge waste since they have to sack them anyways. Reapers are ok but I think they need to tweak that idea a bit as well. If they bring back something similar to Lurkers I am totally race switching to Z though, that would be so sweet to have a siege style unit to hold ground with. are you kidding? corruptors are great for tons of things. It shuts down a tech path for P and forces a specific one from T. Not only that, but have you SEEN what happens when thors get corrupted? I make a single corruptor per thor if there ISNT any terran air on the field. And they can clean up medivacs during a push while your ground units tangle with the marines. 300 health and 2 base armor just makes them so good for forcing marines to not shoot at them. they tank so well that you're left with the decision to either spend a lot of time killing these corruptors that are killing your VERY IMPORTANT medivacs, or shoot the ground units. And if there happens to be NO further use for corruptor, morph it into a BL and go on a rampage. Corruption against key units such as thor, corruption en masse vs stalkers or mass tanks for helping your army down them faster, there's literally limitless options for their use when you tech them. its just that people are stupid and haven't experimented with them like myself. Was it necessary to resurrect a 20-day old thread to post this? I read the title and thought there was new HotS info out... whats wrong with you? A mod necro'd a years old thread about the memphis 3 because there was a relevant update to the story. this is only 20 days old? Exactly. Its not even old at all. its still relevant. Not just that, but what I posted was on topic with the thread. what you posted was not, and is useless. Sorry if you played at a higher level of play you would see just how much more you need gas. Making corruptors just to corrupt thors just isn't worth the gas when again, you are already gas starved. You are using it so that you can do 20% more damage to 1 unit then its completely useless. That is not worth 150 minerals/ 100 gas, especially the gas as again you are already gas starved to where you don't want to waste it on a corruptor just so you can do a 20% more damage to a unit. And you sound like you make more then one so the players you are playing are probably not that good as you are delaying your upgrades, less banelings (vs terran), less infestors/roaches (vs protoss or zerg). If you are making corruptors anyway of course you want to use the corrupt ability never said not to. But if you are just making corruptors to do 20% more damage to thors that is such a huge waste of gas lol. As for the killing medivacs, yeah I use muta to kill medivacs if a terran abandons them what zerg doesn't? I would rather have that extra muta then a useless corruptor that can do 1 corrupt every 45 seconds. +20% damage on a thor. a roach dies, morph corruptor into BL. Stop your theorycraft, its obvious you don't actually play at high level. mutas and corruptors cost the same gas. corruptors can actually fight in a ball, and have higher dps than mutae. Ehem, mutas actually have higher dps than corruptors unless you are fighting a massive unit (which in most cases only counts for the colossus in zerg matchups). I think you believe damage pr shot equals dps, which it doesnt. And the main point of the corruptor is that its purerly a unit you make to counter specific types of units... it doesnt bring anything to the table itself, you cant make any cool tactics with it. Personally I am very glad they are taking a good look at both the corruptor and the overseer. Those two units have been my biggest gripe with zerg since beta. Other units I think need tweeks are: Ultralisk (there are so few cases which this unit can excel cost effectively... 90% of units in the game even kill it cost effectively if microed... whats its role? A broodlord is nearly always better)... Hydralisk (This isnt as bad as the Corruptor but its also a "I build this to counter that" type of unit since it has nearly no aggressive potential, and its way too expensive for a pure dps unit with no special ability. A pack of 20 stimmed marines do about 460 dps, while 7-8 hydras, the equvivalent in cost, do about 160-170 dps, they are slower, have less health combined.... I dont see any plus side to the hydra other than the ability to shoot up. A high cost generic unit like that needs to be microable at least, but alas it is so slow... Lastly the baneling is a problem. The better people get at the game, the less valuable they become. We already see that terrans can cost effectively kill banelings with marines, even if the zerg is microing banelings well, and it will only become worse.) I just hope every race gets more refined with HoTS. But I somewhat agree with Browder. Terran is a more "finished" race than the other races... very well designed race, with lots of syngergy between different types of units. I still hope they get some smaller cool tweaks, but in a lesser degree than Z and P.
mutas are 5.92 DPS. Corruptors without their bonus damage are 7.36. i think you believe damage per shot equals dps. isnt that what you said? Even though the formula is damage/time. lol.
On August 25 2011 04:32 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 04:27 Mentymion wrote:
It seems I was right with my opinion about David Kim.
He clearly doesn't have any clue how to balance that game. In fact, Dustin has spoken about most of all the problems we currently have and which is possibly the best way to fix this but somehow I always read bullshit in the upcoming patches.
Instead I must hear his awkward opinions of the game:"Units such as the Mothership are only for casual players". Season 3 maps were just the icing of the cake....
I could puke everytime I see this fucking interview
I'am glad that Dustin Browder is the Lead Designer of Starcraft 2 cuz he is the reason why this game isn't totally rubbish in terms of Game Design/Balance.
He's responsible for units such as Colossus Marauder Roach Current Hydra Corrupter Immortal So he sure as hell isn't free from any fault, sorry.
back to roaches, he states (after the fact, obviously, not before he created them) taht some units are by design meant to have a choice such as moving in between shots or not. Additionally, Protoss QQ over cloak being useless after 6 minutes can still use dts to harass places where detection isnt, and DTs do a lot of damage anyway, and so can be used to snipe down tech buildings and such. Meanwhile, the one ability that gives zerg cloak is called burrow, and to use it offensively makes it just as useless, while setting up traps with a bunch of burrowed units is MUCH harder than being able to move around some permacloaks and wait.
|
I'm happy if they give Protoss a good harass unit and maybe rework some of the older units (immortal, colossus e.g.)
|
Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no
The corruptor is definitely one of the most worthless units
Corruptors have 200 health, not 300, so I'm wondering how well you know your own favorite unit... Corruptors to kill medivacs.. please tell me in what world the mutalisks can not accomplish the exact same thing, can CHASE THEM, and then..actually shoot things on the ground instead of sitting there. Corruptors to kill medivacs sounds like a battle you would have already won anyways, and if you lose it, you better gtfo with those corruptors and you sure wont be able to defend with them very well if the terran decides to push. You suggest it shuts down a tech path for protoss, why dont you just say the protoss tech path forces a specific one from zerg? What tech path does it force for terran? Vikings? You're mistaken, thats broodlords (or the threat of them). I will let you fly around with all the corruptors you want while I stim into your base. Also give me a shout when idra makes 10 corruptors instead of 10 mutas when his spire pops k?
Maybe im wrong though and mass corruptor is the future style of zerg
TL:DR, Corruptors are a one dimensional unit with an afterthough ability and very few roles that cant be filled by mutas, a unit that can actually hit the ground. I hear broodlords are pretty good though.
|
On August 25 2011 06:03 Truedot wrote:
mutas are 5.92 DPS. Corruptors without their bonus damage are 7.36. i think you believe damage per shot equals dps. isnt that what you said? Even though the formula is damage/time. lol.
I think hes counting in bounce. Mutas with all bounces have a 5.9 + 2 + 0.7 = 8.6 DPS
|
The point of Corruptors is to kill Colossus and morph to broodlords, that's about it. Occasionally I will pump them as anti-VR, but rarely. They are indeed a pretty lame one dimensional unit.
(That said, I'd rather see them fixed than removed. Since Overseers seem like they are going to go the way of the dodo, maybe give Corruptors the Contaminate ability, make them a harras-capable unit like the Phoenix).
|
On August 25 2011 06:03 Truedot wrote:
mutas are 5.92 DPS. Corruptors without their bonus damage are 7.36. i think you believe damage per shot equals dps. isnt that what you said? Even though the formula is damage/time. lol.
No muta dps is 8,55 dps vs unarmoured units. But that is with the glaivebounce. First hit is 9, second 3, third 1. So with 13 damage and attackspeed of 1,52 its a total of 8,55 dps.
|
I feel I have to agree (even as a terran player) I feel zerg are pretty vulnerable in static defenses. So either make spine crawlers morph faster or bring in the lurker. I think faster morphing of spine crawler is a good move to make. But if they do that they gotta be careful as to how fast as it could then counterbalance and we'd have a new type of spine crawler rush hehe.
I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe.
But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance
|
On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel I have to agree (even as a terran player) I feel zerg are pretty vulnerable in static defenses. So either make spine crawlers morph faster or bring in the lurker. I think faster morphing of spine crawler is a good move to make. But if they do that they gotta be careful as to how fast as it could then counterbalance and we'd have a new type of spine crawler rush hehe. I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance
They can't fungal as soon as they morph unless you get Pathogen Glands first. That said, even as a Zerg player, I wouldn't mind seeing them have to research Fungal, or maybe take out the glands. HT got that treatment and they are still very strong, and even without Fungal, Infestors are nasty with Burrow (burrow puking Infested Terran is very strong in a lot of situations).
|
On August 25 2011 06:34 VassiliZaytsev wrote:Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no
Movement speed while burrowed. Health regen with the (hive?) upgrade was pretty sick. Roach was really op and yes it was nerfed over and over again until the range buff.
|
Ah my apologies I forgot those ones, I retract said statement
opinion/ (although i do believe supply nerf was by far the most significant (in all matchups, 1v1 and team games, and both early and late game)) /opinion
|
Canada11297 Posts
On August 25 2011 03:59 holynorth wrote:
I just really want lurkers, or something that offers the same thing. Lurkers could be aggressive or defensive. A professional player could use lurkers to stall a push for nearly five minutes. A bad player would lose them in the first scan. You could go all-in and drop them, or use them to defend an early fourth. Love the unit.
Banelings are bad in design. As players get better, banelings get worse. They rely on imperfect play to a degree where it is actually possible to defeat banelings effectively.
While I disagree with Banelings being a poor design I do agree that Zerg could use something that fills the role of the lurker. You can already see their desire for such a unit. They're usually buying time to remax or tech switch their army and to do that they retreat, retreat, retreat, then finally engage after losing hatchery after hatchery. Or, there's been more Zerg players adding tons of spine crawlers to hold off attacks. In both cases, Zerg is trying to get their best to buy time and another unit that could fill that role would be awesome.
For Ultra's it's probably something more along the lines of some spell that stacks with their ability. The problem late game for melee is getting into the fray before getting gunned down by critical mass ranged units. Darkswarm, cloak, zealotbomb/tank overkill, and stasis were all methods of getting melee up into the ranged line. If there was some spell that allow Ultra's (and zerglings) to get up close, we'd see a lot more. (Maybe an area effect spell that punctures holes in the round, thereby allowing Zerg units upon reaching that area, would auto bury and and could move underground (either to hide or to travel undercover) and then pop up the other side. The punctured ground area of effect would wear off, auto unborrowing units. It kinda is like darkswarm, but graphically different. But perhaps invulnerable to all, but can't attack or be attacked under there? Or keep the melee only attack or be attack.)
Based on the interview, I at least have a little hope that some of the boring units will change.
|
On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel I have to agree (even as a terran player) I feel zerg are pretty vulnerable in static defenses. So either make spine crawlers morph faster or bring in the lurker. I think faster morphing of spine crawler is a good move to make. But if they do that they gotta be careful as to how fast as it could then counterbalance and we'd have a new type of spine crawler rush hehe. I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance
The difference is that you have to start making the infestor and wait for it to pop up at given hatchery. With warp in you could instantly warp in and storm when needed at any place you had a pylon. There is a BIG difference.
If you want to make comparisons to make balance, I would say that marines should become 2 supply. Some thought the roaches performed too well and zergs were making them througout the game, so they became 2 supply. The same goes for the marine. Its the most cost effective unit in the game and is always usefull, and to be honest it doesnt tax a terran enough when it comes to supply. Too cheap for an allround unit, very mobile, extremely high dps, high hp for its cost, easily mass produced. 2 supply marines... you know what thats called? Balance (yeah I know I am being sarcastic)
|
how do you want to add units to toss and zerg and not terran AND keep the balance? i dont think thats possible, unless they buff terrans existing units in return.
|
On August 25 2011 07:04 harhar! wrote:
how do you want to add units to toss and zerg and not terran AND keep the balance? i dont think thats possible, unless they buff terrans existing units in return.
I doubt they will add nothing to terran, but terran will very likely get a niche, relatively inflexible unit, because they already such a flexible race. Z and P will more likely get a unit that fills a hole the race has.
|
On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance
I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere.
I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds.
Balance
Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs.
|
On August 25 2011 07:07 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere. I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds. Balance Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs.
You also have to research storm, the time cost of which has to be amortized across the life of how many HT's you create. If you only ever create a few HT's, the balance swings heavily in favor of the infestor on time. You need to create X number HT's (and I'm not sure what that X is, but it should be simple math), to make it equal out in total time balance with the 'festor.
Of course, the flip of that is that as you go over that X, Storm starts to become more and more time efficient, to the point that the total time cost is amortized to near 0, at which point your 47 second/50 second thing holds perfectly true.
|
yeah no, they're not removing colossi and corrupters
|
On August 25 2011 07:09 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 07:07 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere. I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds. Balance Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs. You also have to research storm, the time cost of which has to be amortized across the life of how many HT's you create. If you only ever create a few HT's, the balance swings heavily in favor of the infestor on time. You need to create X number HT's (and I'm not sure what that X is, but it should be simple math), to make it equal out in total time balance with the 'festor. Of course, the flip of that is that as you go over that X, Storm starts to become more and more time efficient, to the point that the total time cost is amortized to near 0, at which point your 47 second/50 second thing holds perfectly true.
You also have to research Pathogen Glands, and the difference in time is only 30 seconds, and considering the face that you can use Feedback, morph Archons and position them ready to attack in the extra 42 seconds before Storm is ready, and the Storm deals 80 damage when compared to the ~40 (give or take) of a Fungal, that arguements based on time and thus removal of Pathogen Glands are a little unfair.
To be clear though I'm not arguing that anything is imbalanced on that front, I was purely addressing the suggestion of removing Pathogen Glands.
|
On August 25 2011 05:23 Mentymion wrote:
The Design of the Colossus is awesome.
I don't see why. For all the fuss that was made about cliff walking in SC2's early previews it's really just a more limited form of flying, and so the Colossus is used like a slow, fragile siege flyer for you to put infantry under and attack move while hoping that your opponent's composition is heavy on the stuff that it counters and light on the stuff that counters it. It has none of the versatility or excitement factor of the Reaver.
The Colossus seems like a unit that was designed to look cool in screenshots more so than create interesting gameplay.
|
On August 25 2011 07:18 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 07:09 Brainling wrote:On August 25 2011 07:07 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere. I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds. Balance Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs. You also have to research storm, the time cost of which has to be amortized across the life of how many HT's you create. If you only ever create a few HT's, the balance swings heavily in favor of the infestor on time. You need to create X number HT's (and I'm not sure what that X is, but it should be simple math), to make it equal out in total time balance with the 'festor. Of course, the flip of that is that as you go over that X, Storm starts to become more and more time efficient, to the point that the total time cost is amortized to near 0, at which point your 47 second/50 second thing holds perfectly true. You also have to research Pathogen Glands, and the difference in time is only 30 seconds, and considering the face that you can use Feedback, morph Archons and position them ready to attack in the extra 42 seconds before Storm is ready, and the Storm deals 80 damage when compared to the ~40 (give or take) of a Fungal, that arguements based on time and thus removal of Pathogen Glands are a little unfair. To be clear though I'm not arguing that anything is imbalanced on that front, I was purely addressing the suggestion of removing Pathogen Glands.
I agree, I actually don't think Pathogen Glands should be removed, though I do wonder if Fungal shouldn't need to be researched. Feedback is okay, but an Infestor without Fungal is more scary than an HT without Storm, except in very specific situations (when feedback is useful), especially taking Burrow in to account.
(As a side note, I play Zerg, so I'm not sitting here saying someone else's race should be nerfed )
|
On August 25 2011 07:21 Rococo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 05:23 Mentymion wrote:
The Design of the Colossus is awesome. I don't see why. For all the fuss that was made about cliff walking in SC2's early previews it's really just a more limited form of flying, and so the Colossus is used like a slow, fragile siege flyer for you to put infantry under and attack move while hoping that your opponent's composition is heavy on the stuff that it counters and light on the stuff that counters it. It has none of the versatility or excitement factor of the Reaver. The Colossus seems like a unit that was designed to look cool in screenshots more so than create interesting gameplay.
The way you describe Colossus would make it sound like you are talking about brood lords...
|
On August 25 2011 07:32 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 07:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 25 2011 07:09 Brainling wrote:On August 25 2011 07:07 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere. I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds. Balance Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs. You also have to research storm, the time cost of which has to be amortized across the life of how many HT's you create. If you only ever create a few HT's, the balance swings heavily in favor of the infestor on time. You need to create X number HT's (and I'm not sure what that X is, but it should be simple math), to make it equal out in total time balance with the 'festor. Of course, the flip of that is that as you go over that X, Storm starts to become more and more time efficient, to the point that the total time cost is amortized to near 0, at which point your 47 second/50 second thing holds perfectly true. You also have to research Pathogen Glands, and the difference in time is only 30 seconds, and considering the face that you can use Feedback, morph Archons and position them ready to attack in the extra 42 seconds before Storm is ready, and the Storm deals 80 damage when compared to the ~40 (give or take) of a Fungal, that arguements based on time and thus removal of Pathogen Glands are a little unfair. To be clear though I'm not arguing that anything is imbalanced on that front, I was purely addressing the suggestion of removing Pathogen Glands. I agree, I actually don't think Pathogen Glands should be removed, though I do wonder if Fungal shouldn't need to be researched. Feedback is okay, but an Infestor without Fungal is more scary than an HT without Storm, except in very specific situations (when feedback is useful), especially taking Burrow in to account. (As a side note, I play Zerg, so I'm not sitting here saying someone else's race should be nerfed )
Actually think that your suggestion is a good one
|
The infestor feels incomplete, lets leave fungal growth out of this. Infestors are completely useless once it runs out of energy. I just feel like it should be able to do something that doesnt require energy. Let it be melee attack, 200 range attack, breaks down into 4 ultras, morphs into a drone, combines with another infestor to form a mothership.... Its just so annoying to see a unit that cant do anything. It feels the unit was rushed in design and is now lacking depth.
|
On August 25 2011 07:48 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 07:21 Rococo wrote:On August 25 2011 05:23 Mentymion wrote:
The Design of the Colossus is awesome. I don't see why. For all the fuss that was made about cliff walking in SC2's early previews it's really just a more limited form of flying, and so the Colossus is used like a slow, fragile siege flyer for you to put infantry under and attack move while hoping that your opponent's composition is heavy on the stuff that it counters and light on the stuff that counters it. It has none of the versatility or excitement factor of the Reaver. The Colossus seems like a unit that was designed to look cool in screenshots more so than create interesting gameplay. The way you describe Colossus would make it sound like you are talking about brood lords...
you have to agree the idea for both is very very similar
|
On August 02 2011 12:33 HigoSeco wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively. so you basically want to play BW
A game of BW's quality with SC2s popularity? Hell yeah, bring it on.
|
Please, please, please remove the corruptor. It is so lame and bad.
And Hydra needs to be changed or removed, an immobile glass cannon is everything Zerg is NOT about, it doesn't fit the race design at all.
|
I think the Hydra just needs some love. I think at a core design level it's fine. I think the suggested speed upgrade is probably the best thing I've heard so far. It's a glass cannon, with no real way to get away from anything. If you attack with Hydra's, you are committed, and they aren't THAT good. They are too defensive without a speed upgrade, unless you are just a creep boss and have the whole map creeped up...but by that point in the game, why build hydras?
I would bake the range upgrade in to the unit, and give Hydra Den a speed upgrade.
|
KA removal makes sense, warping in storms was a bad idea and will never return. this coming from a protoss player.
infestors>HT
but its not like we need a game where lings=marines=zealots. roaches=marauders=stalkers etc.
|
On August 25 2011 08:18 Like a Boss wrote:
The infestor feels incomplete, lets leave fungal growth out of this. Infestors are completely useless once it runs out of energy. I just feel like it should be able to do something that doesnt require energy. Let it be melee attack, 200 range attack, breaks down into 4 ultras, morphs into a drone, combines with another infestor to form a mothership.... Its just so annoying to see a unit that cant do anything. It feels the unit was rushed in design and is now lacking depth.
Make it more expensive, more powerful, give it consume?
Honestly seeing 20 infestors in an army looks really silly. Good players could just use 3 infestors and have a more powerful army.
|
I would really like to see the return of the scourge, it was such a good anti air unit, and its something our race badly needs, we have no answer to phoenix or heavy void ray harass right now that doesn't completely cripple us for the mid late game.
I would like to see a t3 spell caster that could support lings, somehow improve their armor or health or something like that something to fill the role of the defiler but without completely breaking the late game, I don't know how that could work, maybe give us a disruption web type ability that could stop units under it from using ranged attacks, this way they could micro out of it to punish us instead of us microing into it, combined with a nerf back to the original fungal they could both be useful abilities at stages of the game, but only really strong together.
Also a hydra speed upgrade and reduced gas cost would be awesome for late game, being able to send around squads of ranged units to do actually damage would be really nice.
Even a hive tech upgrade that would reduce the cost of hydralisks so they could be massed late game would be nice, right now the gas cost is so prohibiting in our late game where gas is so precious, could be something like hydralisks now cost 150 minerals and 0 gas because zerg learned how to evolve blah without gas, or hydralisks are now 75 25 with hive upgrade, something like that would be really neat.
|
On August 25 2011 06:34 VassiliZaytsev wrote:Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no The corruptor is definitely one of the most worthless units Corruptors have 200 health, not 300, so I'm wondering how well you know your own favorite unit... Corruptors to kill medivacs.. please tell me in what world the mutalisks can not accomplish the exact same thing, can CHASE THEM, and then..actually shoot things on the ground instead of sitting there. Corruptors to kill medivacs sounds like a battle you would have already won anyways, and if you lose it, you better gtfo with those corruptors and you sure wont be able to defend with them very well if the terran decides to push. You suggest it shuts down a tech path for protoss, why dont you just say the protoss tech path forces a specific one from zerg? What tech path does it force for terran? Vikings? You're mistaken, thats broodlords (or the threat of them). I will let you fly around with all the corruptors you want while I stim into your base. Also give me a shout when idra makes 10 corruptors instead of 10 mutas when his spire pops k? Maybe im wrong though and mass corruptor is the future style of zerg TL:DR, Corruptors are a one dimensional unit with an afterthough ability and very few roles that cant be filled by mutas, a unit that can actually hit the ground. I hear broodlords are pretty good though.
Supply nerfed from 1 to 2. THAT is a big deal. cutting your potential swarm army in half?
Amror nerfed from 2 to 1.
Tech 3 regen for above ground and bonus to below ground with tunnel claws regen nerfed.
basically, roach had 3 stages of regen, a little like how VRs have 3 stages of charge.
did you miss the part where corruptors have 2 armor, and so marines plink them, compared to muta which get killed instantly.
1 muta takes 29 shots to kill a corruptor. fact.
|
On August 25 2011 08:18 Like a Boss wrote:
The infestor feels incomplete, lets leave fungal growth out of this. Infestors are completely useless once it runs out of energy. I just feel like it should be able to do something that doesnt require energy. Let it be melee attack, 200 range attack, breaks down into 4 ultras, morphs into a drone, combines with another infestor to form a mothership.... Its just so annoying to see a unit that cant do anything. It feels the unit was rushed in design and is now lacking depth.
It is supposed to burrow and run away, or at least burrow and squeeze out an infested if the fight lasts long enough to gain the energy. I think there is a good contrast between ghost, HT and infestor when it comes to what they can do when out of energy.
|
On August 25 2011 06:34 VassiliZaytsev wrote:Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no
They used to have Organic Carapace which provided +10 burrow regen and +5 regen while above ground (note that Tunnel Claws did not have regen but it was Organic Carapace).
Though an important thing to note is Roach has been buffed (from 3 range to 4 range) after the release of SC2 (first major balance patch).
|
On August 25 2011 09:39 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 06:34 VassiliZaytsev wrote:Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no The corruptor is definitely one of the most worthless units Corruptors have 200 health, not 300, so I'm wondering how well you know your own favorite unit... Corruptors to kill medivacs.. please tell me in what world the mutalisks can not accomplish the exact same thing, can CHASE THEM, and then..actually shoot things on the ground instead of sitting there. Corruptors to kill medivacs sounds like a battle you would have already won anyways, and if you lose it, you better gtfo with those corruptors and you sure wont be able to defend with them very well if the terran decides to push. You suggest it shuts down a tech path for protoss, why dont you just say the protoss tech path forces a specific one from zerg? What tech path does it force for terran? Vikings? You're mistaken, thats broodlords (or the threat of them). I will let you fly around with all the corruptors you want while I stim into your base. Also give me a shout when idra makes 10 corruptors instead of 10 mutas when his spire pops k? Maybe im wrong though and mass corruptor is the future style of zerg TL:DR, Corruptors are a one dimensional unit with an afterthough ability and very few roles that cant be filled by mutas, a unit that can actually hit the ground. I hear broodlords are pretty good though. Supply nerfed from 1 to 2. THAT is a big deal. cutting your potential swarm army in half? Amror nerfed from 2 to 1. Tech 3 regen for above ground and bonus to below ground with tunnel claws regen nerfed. basically, roach had 3 stages of regen, a little like how VRs have 3 stages of charge. did you miss the part where corruptors have 2 armor, and so marines plink them, compared to muta which get killed instantly. 1 muta takes 29 shots to kill a corruptor. fact.
It would be a fallacy to say that nerfing the supply from 1 to 2 was cutting the potential of your army in half. How often do you run around with 200/200 and nothing but roaches for extended periods of time? You act as if it nerfed the quality of the roach by half, but in reality, it only really affected the late game. All it does is make you hit food cap quicker, which if anything forces an earlier engagement. It does nothing to the quality of the roach at all. Don't you remember all the rage from back in the day?
Plus, 1 food roaches were obscenely imbalanced. Do you really think that (given the current game trends), having that many more roaches in a 200/200 army would be fair?
Also roaches got one of the largest buffs in the games history: increasing it's range to 4. This changed the entire dynamic of the game. So don't say that roaches got nothing but nerfs and should be back to 1 food. Current roach at 1 food would break the game in half.
Err this was linked to me, my bad for the necro
|
On October 20 2011 10:57 Thrasymachus725 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:39 Truedot wrote:On August 25 2011 06:34 VassiliZaytsev wrote:Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no The corruptor is definitely one of the most worthless units Corruptors have 200 health, not 300, so I'm wondering how well you know your own favorite unit... Corruptors to kill medivacs.. please tell me in what world the mutalisks can not accomplish the exact same thing, can CHASE THEM, and then..actually shoot things on the ground instead of sitting there. Corruptors to kill medivacs sounds like a battle you would have already won anyways, and if you lose it, you better gtfo with those corruptors and you sure wont be able to defend with them very well if the terran decides to push. You suggest it shuts down a tech path for protoss, why dont you just say the protoss tech path forces a specific one from zerg? What tech path does it force for terran? Vikings? You're mistaken, thats broodlords (or the threat of them). I will let you fly around with all the corruptors you want while I stim into your base. Also give me a shout when idra makes 10 corruptors instead of 10 mutas when his spire pops k? Maybe im wrong though and mass corruptor is the future style of zerg TL:DR, Corruptors are a one dimensional unit with an afterthough ability and very few roles that cant be filled by mutas, a unit that can actually hit the ground. I hear broodlords are pretty good though. Supply nerfed from 1 to 2. THAT is a big deal. cutting your potential swarm army in half? Amror nerfed from 2 to 1. Tech 3 regen for above ground and bonus to below ground with tunnel claws regen nerfed. basically, roach had 3 stages of regen, a little like how VRs have 3 stages of charge. did you miss the part where corruptors have 2 armor, and so marines plink them, compared to muta which get killed instantly. 1 muta takes 29 shots to kill a corruptor. fact. It would be a fallacy to say that nerfing the supply from 1 to 2 was cutting the potential of your army in half. How often do you run around with 200/200 and nothing but roaches for extended periods of time? You act as if it nerfed the quality of the roach by half, but in reality, it only really affected the late game. All it does is make you hit food cap quicker, which if anything forces an earlier engagement. It does nothing to the quality of the roach at all. Don't you remember all the rage from back in the day? Plus, 1 food roaches were obscenely imbalanced. Do you really think that (given the current game trends), having that many more roaches in a 200/200 army would be fair? Also roaches got one of the largest buffs in the games history: increasing it's range to 4. This changed the entire dynamic of the game. So don't say that roaches got nothing but nerfs and should be back to 1 food. Current roach at 1 food would break the game in half. Err this was linked to me, my bad for the necro
Meh, relevant considering the upcoming panel. Let's see what they've stuck with since then
EDIT: Post below on the other hand is probably meant for the New Zerg Unit thread >_>
|
Maybe the new unit is a Hydra morph. It would encourage their use.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
