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On July 27 2011 04:06 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
Honor-based system? Not paying your employees is honor based? Covering up a child sex abuse scandal is honor based? Kespa is honor based? I'm all for money and soul binding paper if thats the alternative to "honor based"
Strawman?? then adress the old Kespa ways.
Oh nice now you're bringing particular cases.
-Not paying your employees is common in US teams which haven't managed to get sponsors yet.
-Child abuse happened in one team, could have been murder too. What does it have to do with the culture? What is wrong with you???
-Kespa is obviously not honor based. I never said that the entirety of the scene is like this...
-Obviously money and contracts stops child abuse cold.
You have grounds for disagreeing with me but unlike the others who have good points, you don't.
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Coach Lee has aptly demonstrated that the person who gets their story published first controls the story.
He's got Teamliquid wrapped around his fingers with his tears, and is even getting some money he doesn't deserve to boot!
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8748 Posts
On July 27 2011 03:57 NightAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Verbal contracts are worth $0.00 USD. Good fact to know.
I'm really curious what written contracts are worth. What are the repercussions of breaking one? In sports with governing bodies, the power of the governing body is clear. A player can be exiled from all competitive competition. But that's not the case for SC2. I'm certain that many players could break their contracts to join other teams and still play in any competition they want. What will the team do with the written and signed contract, sue? In which country and for what? A lot of contracts have early termination fees and transfer fees. If those are paid to the team (most recruiting teams are prepared to pay such fees) then it seems the team can do nothing with their written contract.
I think it still comes back to people doing what they say they'll do and treating each other with respect OR having a governing body that regulates all player and team interactions so that it's impossible to do any shady things. Until an entity with enough power imposes rules and regulations, SC2 pro scene is like the wild west.
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On July 27 2011 04:04 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place. Every other sport has contracts with clear terms describing the conditions of employment, and there's a governing body to determine how transfers happen. There is no contract here. It is an at will employment situation And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system Korea customs aren't the norm but should be respected. Granted, I understand your point: perhaps we should abuse the flaws in their honor-based culture with the strengths of good ole' money and soul binding paper.
You are saying that Korean customs should be respected over US/international ones over a transaction between two teams who from different countries with differrent customs. How does one become the default there in international business? Clearly both cannot be respected
On July 27 2011 04:14 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:57 NightAngel wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Verbal contracts are worth $0.00 USD. Good fact to know. I'm really curious what written contracts are worth. What are the repercussions of breaking one? In sports with governing bodies, the power of the governing body is clear. A player can be exiled from all competitive competition. But that's not the case for SC2. I'm certain that many players could break their contracts to join other teams and still play in any competition they want. What will the team do with the written and signed contract, sue? In which country and for what? A lot of contracts have early termination fees and transfer fees. If those are paid to the team (most recruiting teams are prepared to pay such fees) then it seems the team can do nothing with their written contract. I think it still comes back to people doing what they say they'll do and treating each other with respect OR having a governing body that regulates all player and team interactions so that it's impossible to do any shady things. Until an entity with enough power imposes rules and regulations, SC2 pro scene is like the wild west.
If you signed a contract in korea and broke it to go elsewhere I'd guess you get sued in the country you signed it in (WILD SPECULATION!!!). But I don't even know if that's the case because the NHL has a similar issue brewing right now with its league and the Russians (KHL) with people basically shitting on contracts because of a lack of a transfer agreement. I don't think there's been any successful suits yet.
definitely all really interesting though
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On July 27 2011 04:14 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:57 NightAngel wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Verbal contracts are worth $0.00 USD. Good fact to know. I'm really curious what written contracts are worth. What are the repercussions of breaking one? In sports with governing bodies, the power of the governing body is clear. A player can be exiled from all competitive competition. But that's not the case for SC2. I'm certain that many players could break their contracts to join other teams and still play in any competition they want. What will the team do with the written and signed contract, sue? In which country and for what? A lot of contracts have early termination fees and transfer fees. If those are paid to the team (most recruiting teams are prepared to pay such fees) then it seems the team can do nothing with their written contract. I think it still comes back to people doing what they say they'll do and treating each other with respect OR having a governing body that regulates all player and team interactions so that it's impossible to do any shady things. Until an entity with enough power imposes rules and regulations, SC2 pro scene is like the wild west.
I agree. This is why events like this help roll the ball in the correct direction as far as having an infrastructure that can help mediate situations like this. It would be hard to collaborate between all of the bodies that make up the SC2 E-Sports scene, but with the correct minds and perspectives, I think something could be drawn up.
As far as contracts holding up, I would venture to say that if someone in Korea signed a contract in Korea, that gives rights to the contract holder to sue the player (TSL if Puma was contracted), in Korean courts, about a breach of contract situation.
"Breach of contract is a legal cause of action in which a binding agreement or bargained-for exchange is not honored by one or more of the parties to the contract by non-performance or interference with the other party's performance. If the party does not fulfill his contractual promise, or has given information to the other party that he will not perform his duty as mentioned in the contract or if by his action and conduct he seems to be unable to perform the contract, he is said to breach the contract."
I would put that under this category...
A fundamental breach (or repudiatory breach) is a breach so fundamental that it permits the aggrieved party to terminate performance of the contract. In addition that party is entitled to sue for damages.
It would be up to TSL to sue Puma on terms of a fundamental breach of contract. I imagine that would be taken up in the Korean judicial system, as it it originated in Korea.
Until there is a governing body in the SC2 scene, or E-Sports scene, that is the most that can happen, from a legal standpoint.
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On July 27 2011 04:15 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place. Every other sport has contracts with clear terms describing the conditions of employment, and there's a governing body to determine how transfers happen. There is no contract here. It is an at will employment situation And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system Korea customs aren't the norm but should be respected. Granted, I understand your point: perhaps we should abuse the flaws in their honor-based culture with the strengths of good ole' money and soul binding paper. You are saying that Korean customs should be respected over US/international ones over a transaction between two teams who from different countries with differrent customs. How does one become the default there in international business? Clearly both cannot be respected
There are no international customs. Countries conform if they feel like it.
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On July 27 2011 04:13 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:06 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
Honor-based system? Not paying your employees is honor based? Covering up a child sex abuse scandal is honor based? Kespa is honor based? I'm all for money and soul binding paper if thats the alternative to "honor based"
Strawman?? then adress the old Kespa ways. Oh nice now you're bringing particular cases. -Not paying your employees is common in US teams which haven't managed to get sponsors yet. -Child abuse happened in one team, could have been murder too. What does it have to do with the culture? What is wrong with you??? -Kespa is obviously not honor based. I never said that the entirety of the scene is like this... -Obviously money and contracts stops child abuse cold. You have grounds for disagreeing with me but unlike the others who have good points, you don't.
-If a US player was signed to a contract with a team that wanted to pay him no one cares, this has no bearing on your honor based issue.
-Child abuse happened with a SC2 team in the honor based system, directly pointing to the fact that this is not some mythical code of honor adhered to by SC2 players, coaches, and managers
-So the scene is half honor half not honor?? So your saying that even within Korea there is no consensus on how to manage these things, so which part of Korean culture do we respect??
-No money and contracts does not stop child abuse, which i never mentioned, implied, or insinuated, but I see you are resorting to straw men of your own. But im glad you reiterate the lack of honor in the honor system.
I have grounds to disagree with you, and grounds to say that your pretty much completely wrong on all points. However i will not resort to such a low level as personal insults.. yet
P.S please actually address the kespa question, you never did in the midst of your ramblings
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You say I'm wrong? Well you're wrong!
Now I'll go back to talking to the people who kind of aren't as wrong!
PS: Honestly though look at the other people who reply to me and take notes.
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Yet you offer no proof, which I do, I see a life problem for you if this is the way you deal with discussions. Best of luck to you.
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On July 27 2011 04:25 originalred04 wrote:
Yet you offer no proof, which I do, I see a life problem for you if this is the way you deal with discussions. Best of luck to you.
I've handled every discussion properly with the other posters and I will continue to do so if it goes on.
Yours isn't useful and you make bad points, even though you don't realize. You think the same about me and that's fine. <3
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<3 peace out TL community, EG Puma fighting!!
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On July 27 2011 04:18 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:15 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place. Every other sport has contracts with clear terms describing the conditions of employment, and there's a governing body to determine how transfers happen. There is no contract here. It is an at will employment situation And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system Korea customs aren't the norm but should be respected. Granted, I understand your point: perhaps we should abuse the flaws in their honor-based culture with the strengths of good ole' money and soul binding paper. You are saying that Korean customs should be respected over US/international ones over a transaction between two teams who from different countries with differrent customs. How does one become the default there in international business? Clearly both cannot be respected There are no international customs. Countries conform if they feel like it.
Yeah but before you said the korean ones should be respected. How can you do that when it directly clashes with the customs of another country when doing international business? In a situation such as this where both parties clearly disagree and can't find a mutual ground for this, how do you determine that the korean custom is the one that is upheld?
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On July 26 2011 09:12 awu25 wrote:
Why didn't you speak to the coach first? It's like a manager going to Kobe and asking if he would be interested in joining a team. You can't expect the player to have the balls and say "I want to join another team" Kobe is contracted, It's not even close to the same thing. EG fighting, as long as IdrA is on the team I am a fan boy.
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On July 27 2011 04:14 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:57 NightAngel wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Verbal contracts are worth $0.00 USD. Good fact to know. I'm really curious what written contracts are worth. What are the repercussions of breaking one? In sports with governing bodies, the power of the governing body is clear. A player can be exiled from all competitive competition. But that's not the case for SC2. I'm certain that many players could break their contracts to join other teams and still play in any competition they want. What will the team do with the written and signed contract, sue? In which country and for what? A lot of contracts have early termination fees and transfer fees. If those are paid to the team (most recruiting teams are prepared to pay such fees) then it seems the team can do nothing with their written contract. I think it still comes back to people doing what they say they'll do and treating each other with respect OR having a governing body that regulates all player and team interactions so that it's impossible to do any shady things. Until an entity with enough power imposes rules and regulations, SC2 pro scene is like the wild west.
There's truth to this. MOST business is like the Wild West, unless you are part of a union, are a government employee, or have a career that requires certification from a professional organization.
And verbal agreements can be binding. But in this case, it sounds like that verbal agreement was very unclear, or simply not enticing.
Is it really reasonable for a team like TSL, no matter how nice Mr. Lee is, to expect Puma to be part of TSL indefinitely, especially without any kind of written agreement or even a promise of employment? It's clear from other threads that TSL was under financial duress.
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On July 27 2011 04:33 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:15 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place. Every other sport has contracts with clear terms describing the conditions of employment, and there's a governing body to determine how transfers happen. There is no contract here. It is an at will employment situation And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system Korea customs aren't the norm but should be respected. Granted, I understand your point: perhaps we should abuse the flaws in their honor-based culture with the strengths of good ole' money and soul binding paper. You are saying that Korean customs should be respected over US/international ones over a transaction between two teams who from different countries with differrent customs. How does one become the default there in international business? Clearly both cannot be respected There are no international customs. Countries conform if they feel like it. Yeah but before you said the korean ones should be respected. How can you do that when it directly clashes with the customs of another country when doing international business? In a situation such as this where both parties clearly disagree and can't find a mutual ground for this, how do you determine that the korean custom is the one that is upheld?
Well I think Tyler was right when he basically said that SC2's professional scene is kind of a mess right now in that regard. Both "sides" should strive to behave accordingly to each other's way of doing things to a certain extent. Just being respectful, really. I guess it doesn't always work like that in businesses where everyone tries to profit, but yeah, there's no KESPA, and perhaps it's better that way... I like to think that things can be done respectfully.
Perhaps that's like arguing for the idea that an anarchy can work though. If there are no rules, people will find ways to take advantage. I think it's legal and dirty, and we'd be better off if it didn't happen.
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I don't see how "Puma hadn't signed anything at the time of Mr. Lee's press release" is relevant to anything.
It seems like the deal was already agreed upon (though no contract had been signed yet), and that Puma basically spoke to Mr. Lee to say "I'm going to EG."
TBH it seems like there is a reason why EG didn't want to go through the proper channels, but we may never know why.
Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport??
Do you have any idea about how international business transactions work? If you go into another country to do business, you do it their way. The same applies if you want to recruit a player from another country.
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On July 27 2011 04:40 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:33 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 04:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:15 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place. Every other sport has contracts with clear terms describing the conditions of employment, and there's a governing body to determine how transfers happen. There is no contract here. It is an at will employment situation And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system Korea customs aren't the norm but should be respected. Granted, I understand your point: perhaps we should abuse the flaws in their honor-based culture with the strengths of good ole' money and soul binding paper. You are saying that Korean customs should be respected over US/international ones over a transaction between two teams who from different countries with differrent customs. How does one become the default there in international business? Clearly both cannot be respected There are no international customs. Countries conform if they feel like it. Yeah but before you said the korean ones should be respected. How can you do that when it directly clashes with the customs of another country when doing international business? In a situation such as this where both parties clearly disagree and can't find a mutual ground for this, how do you determine that the korean custom is the one that is upheld? Well I think Tyler was right when he basically said that SC2's professional scene is kind of a mess right now in that regard. Both sides should strive to behave accordingly to each other's way of doing things. I guess it doesn't always work like that in businesses where everyone tries to profit, but yeah, there's no KESPA, and perhaps it's better that way... I like to think that things can be done respectfully. Perhaps that's like arguing for the idea that an anarchy can work though. If there are no rules, people will find ways to take advantage. I think it's legal and dirty, and we'd be better off if it didn't happen.
The concept of Kespa wasnt terrible. In fact it was a great way to organize an unorganized scene. However, it was taken the wrong direction and eventually seemed to do more harm than help to the players.
A KESPA like approach, with a different objective than what Kespa apparently had, would be very good for the international growth of E-Sports. Into something more sophisticated than children playing video games and eating hot pockets. It's offensive for people who game for a living to be dismissed as just that - teenagers/mid life people who sit around, play games, and eat hot pockets. So it's time to act as if that's not the case, honestly.
Some players would rather not involve themselves in something so drastic. That's fine. But I can guarantee you there's also a handful of team managers, players, and outside interest who would love to sit down and really put together something that changes the scenery of the SC2 scene on a global level.
A players union would be just as fantastic. Insuring the development of the players, with the best interest of the players at hand. Something to protect the rights of the players, while still promoting an environment endearing to the growth of a legitamate "E"Sports scene.
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On July 27 2011 04:40 0c3LoT wrote:I don't see how "Puma hadn't signed anything at the time of Mr. Lee's press release" is relevant to anything. It seems like the deal was already agreed upon (though no contract had been signed yet), and that Puma basically spoke to Mr. Lee to say "I'm going to EG." TBH it seems like there is a reason why EG didn't want to go through the proper channels, but we may never know why. Show nested quote +Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Do you have any idea about how international business transactions work? If you go into another country to do business, you do it their way. The same applies if you want to recruit a player from another country.
AG explained pretty thorougly on WoC that Korean teams, when approached in this situation, commonly put outrageous price tags on their players in hopes of the other team buying out their player. That was something that EG didn't feel was a smart business endeavor. Partner that with the fact that Puma was contracted either way (TSL confirmed this as well), and you can see why AG/EG would prefer to handle things privately.
Keep in mind that PuMa was not contracted at that point, therefore there would be no buyout. No contract = nothing to buyout. Who's to say that TSL wouldn't have flipped things around, contracted Puma, and forced EG into a buyout situation, if they were the first channel involved.
Who's to say Puma being trapped in that situation wouldn't hurt him more than help him? Lets say TSL contracted him for room and board for a year, and only room and board. EG offers up a proposal to Coach Lee. Coach Lee says you must buy out Puma for (just throwing a number, no idea as to what it may be) $30,000. TSL wont budge on the number, and EG isn't prepared to invest $30,000 on buying a player alone, while still having to pay Puma as a player in a completely separate agreement. You don't think...
- EG backs down and leaves Puma to TSL
- Puma continues to play for free (oh wait pizza and a bed)
Is worse than EG contracting a player legitamately? Come on.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 27 2011 04:47 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:33 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 04:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:15 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place. Every other sport has contracts with clear terms describing the conditions of employment, and there's a governing body to determine how transfers happen. There is no contract here. It is an at will employment situation And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system Korea customs aren't the norm but should be respected. Granted, I understand your point: perhaps we should abuse the flaws in their honor-based culture with the strengths of good ole' money and soul binding paper. You are saying that Korean customs should be respected over US/international ones over a transaction between two teams who from different countries with differrent customs. How does one become the default there in international business? Clearly both cannot be respected There are no international customs. Countries conform if they feel like it. Yeah but before you said the korean ones should be respected. How can you do that when it directly clashes with the customs of another country when doing international business? In a situation such as this where both parties clearly disagree and can't find a mutual ground for this, how do you determine that the korean custom is the one that is upheld? Well I think Tyler was right when he basically said that SC2's professional scene is kind of a mess right now in that regard. Both sides should strive to behave accordingly to each other's way of doing things. I guess it doesn't always work like that in businesses where everyone tries to profit, but yeah, there's no KESPA, and perhaps it's better that way... I like to think that things can be done respectfully. Perhaps that's like arguing for the idea that an anarchy can work though. If there are no rules, people will find ways to take advantage. I think it's legal and dirty, and we'd be better off if it didn't happen. The concept of Kespa wasnt terrible. In fact it was a great way to organize an unorganized scene. However, it was taken the wrong direction and eventually seemed to do more harm than help to the players. A KESPA like approach, with a different objective than what Kespa apparently had, would be very good for the international growth of E-Sports. Into something more sophisticated than children playing video games and eating hot pockets. It's offensive for people who game for a living to be dismissed as just that - teenagers/mid life people who sit around, play games, and eat hot pockets. So it's time to act as if that's not the case, honestly. Some players would rather not involve themselves in something so drastic. That's fine. But I can guarantee you there's also a handful of team managers, players, and outside interest who would love to sit down and really put together something that changes the scenery of the SC2 scene on a global level. A players union would be just as fantastic. Insuring the development of the players, with the best interest of the players at hand. Something to protect the rights of the players, while still promoting an environment endearing to the growth of a legitamate "E"Sports scene.
I agree for the most part, except maybe for the union thing but who knows. A Kespa-like body could be good.
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Nice clarification, always need to see both sides of the coin.
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EPT
