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The reality is that Mr. Lee has to share some fault for not getting sponsors, not paying players, or at the very least, not giving them contracts that would allow him to match offers from outside companies.
Quite frankly, Mr. Lee sounds like a very nice man that sucks at business.
Worst part of Western business: everyone has a false sense of entitlement. Bratty players like GosiTerran think the world revolves around them and deserves compensation even though he's a flake that's accomplished nothing.
Worst part of Eastern business: everyone has a false sense of indebtedness. People expect each other to sacrifice their privacy, time, and any alternative prospects or education. On top of that, the employee is somehow "indebted" to the employer for the opportunity, to the point the employer expects you to work for fucking free, with no promise of financial security.
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On July 27 2011 03:32 Defacer wrote:
On top of that, the employee is somehow "indebted" to the employer for the opportunity, to the point the the employer expects you to work for fucking free, with no promise of financial security.
This.
I'm baffled how a community full of gamers doesn't understand this. I'm even more stunned that it isn't enfuriating that this happens to our fellow gamers.
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I'm sad Alex even attempted to explain himself, when a witch hunt is on, a witch is going to be found or in this case made. EG did nothing wrong and have nothing to apologize about, hence why he only apologized for the feelings people were feeling.
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On July 27 2011 02:43 Klaus1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 02:38 Zyphen wrote:
Are people reading the same BS I am? How did this statement clear anything up or make things all better? Because it's a giant wall of text and he's hoping to give you reader's fatigue?
Alex basically confirmed that he went to see and talk with Puma first before talking to TSL. Whether or not it was "legal" doesn't make it any less unethical of a business practice. People like Alex are the reason why you have to get a goddamn contract with your own mother now because a person's word doesn't mean anything anymore. Plus, he admits to doing it multiple times (i.e. Sen) with other players as well.
Alex's account of how Puma and Coach Lee "seemed fine with it at the time" is nothing but conjecture and disproven by the facts. Obviously, the coach wasn't fine with it. And letting Puma sit on the offer for as long as he did and laying the responsibility on him to inform his coach was a dick move and completely unprofessional. Puma being ok with it does not absolve Alex or EG of any blame. If anything, it just makes Puma almost as much of a dick.
I'm boycotting Puma, EG, and anything they're associated with. No one cares.
Except, of course, for the people with the same viewpoint, but great argument!!
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On July 27 2011 03:28 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:26 Djzapz wrote:
[
Let's look at Koreans, in the future, being reluctant to send players in the US because there's always a chance that big US teams with big US sponsors will snag players off their ranks if they're successful. Or Korea can contract those valuable players, sort of like what EG has done. Smart business is smart. Or Korea can choose not to send their players to international events, and continue being isolationist and elitist. That would be their loss at the end of the day, because the writings on the wall in regards to the Korean SC2 scene (or should I say lackthereof)
Korean teams can't compete with US teams which will have more money for obvious reasons. And smart business is obviously smart when it's not done legitimately. There are always good ways to make a buck off of disingenuous practices. Smart and dishonest I guess.
And how are they isolationist anyway? They're just starting to have a few reasons to fly out of Korea once in a while when they're eliminated from GSL.
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On July 27 2011 03:32 Defacer wrote:
The reality is that Mr. Lee has to share some fault for not getting sponsors, not paying players, or at the very least, not giving them contracts that would allow him to match offers from outside companies.
Quite frankly, Mr. Lee sounds like a very nice man that sucks at business.
Worst part of Western business: everyone has a false sense of entitlement. Bratty players like GosiTerran think the world revolves around them and deserves compensation even though he's a flake that's accomplished nothing.
Worst part of Eastern business: everyone has a false sense of indebtedness. People expect each other to sacrifice their privacy, time, and any alternative prospects or education. On top of that, the employee is somehow "indebted" to the employer for the opportunity, to the point the the employer expects you to work for fucking free, with no promise of financial security.
You just explained what I explained with better words! You sir, understand whats going on! :D
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@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad?
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On July 27 2011 03:25 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:17 cavalier117 wrote:On July 27 2011 02:21 Vertical wrote:On July 27 2011 02:16 originalred04 wrote:
I think Korean sponsors don't care about US fan base....what can they advertise to us? A. Don't speak the language at all, B. Couldn't buy their products.
Koreans are in Foreign tourny's cause that's were the money is at, and they have a great chance of winning. this was also true but which one has bigger viewer ? IPL or GSL ? EG Master Cup or GSTL ? i dont think foreign scene that exclude koreans having better viewer either highest rated turnament all have foreigner vs korean matches MLG, Dreamhack, NASL, etc btw i see ur point about korean product dont need foreign exposure they need more local viewers anyway this getting of topic :D one thing to consider though Vertical, is that that the GSL/GSTL, while being at horrible viewing times for us westerners, we still make up the majority of the viewer count. Koreans really dont watch sc2.... comparatively to BW. on the other hand, thats basically all we westerners watch. Koreans, on the other really do make up a sizable viewer audience in western things (not saying you guys dont watch it. but your not a giant chunk of the pie.) now compare western tourneys (everything other than Korea basically) not only do we watch the GSL, but we also watch the IPL/MLG/Dreamhack/IEM/NASL, and i believe(not positive, but fairly sure) that all of those event actually get higher numbers of live viewers AND with the exception of NASL, all the VODs are free. unlike GOM, which is terrible business sense, bc the overwhelming majority of viewers wont pay 25$ for each season. that means less VOD viewership which also means less advertising. so yea, I'd say, at the end of the day. we have the viewer count. People need to realize that times are changing rapidly. Korea isnt the the absolute center of the ESPORTS universe anymore. they still have the best players(for now) but the rest of the world has already surpassed them in everything but player skill. and they are even catching up rapidly in that. i look forward to another GSL vs the World Tourney. think how close it was last time. and the absolute best foreigners didnt even go. I've tried this point to, people still don't get it man. Once you register on TL... - Korea is the best thing since sliced bread. - Only Korean values matter - Anything other than Korean values being presented means you should apologize to Korea for not acting as if you are also Korean. - Korea. - Business goes out the window. - Insert some funny quote about Korea not using Contracts but respect, without even considering Kespa in the equation. - The rest of the world doesn't matter, because Korea exists. I'm really shocked at how everyone expects EG, AG, and the community to bend at every whim for the Korean SC community. You know what stops all of this from happening? Korea getting it right. Not plastering out there that EG signed Puma to a contract when Puma hadn't signed anywhere yet (including TSL which had the opportunity to provide Puma with a contract prior to NASL, prior to him talking to EG, and even after he talked to EG). You don't think playpxp or whatever got it wrong by reporting that Puma signed a contract with EG when EG was still handling things in-house (not blaming Milikis calm down white knights)? Where's the apology for that? Creating outrage amongst the SC2 community one way or the other, costing a team that has invested a great deal of time/money in being a professional team (outside the scope of the SC2 scene, EG has existed longer than that)? If the article read something more accurate like, say, "TSL and Puma part ways, Puma and EG likely to partner" then it would be a different story. But the whole feeling from the outset has been this "EG sniped Puma" undertone and quite frankly that isn't fair to EG.
Just how I feel, if it was the other way around that a player from EG signed with TSL people with the blinded love for all Korean with out even trying to see the other side of the story would blame that on EG also.
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On July 27 2011 03:36 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:28 Grimsong wrote:On July 27 2011 03:26 Djzapz wrote:
[
Let's look at Koreans, in the future, being reluctant to send players in the US because there's always a chance that big US teams with big US sponsors will snag players off their ranks if they're successful. Or Korea can contract those valuable players, sort of like what EG has done. Smart business is smart. Or Korea can choose not to send their players to international events, and continue being isolationist and elitist. That would be their loss at the end of the day, because the writings on the wall in regards to the Korean SC2 scene (or should I say lackthereof) Korean teams can't compete with US teams which will have more money for obvious reasons. And smart business is obviously smart when it's not done legitimately. There are always good ways to make a buck off of disingenuous practices. And how are they isolationist anyway? They're just starting to have a few reasons to fly out of Korea once in a while when they're eliminated from GSL.
Strip away the money.
TSL could have contracted Puma and money doesnt even need to be involved. They can sign him to a contract that locks him into team TSL on an open ended term to be decided by the team manager (Coach Lee). For food and board. But they didn't.
EG signed a player who had no contract with any other organizations.
TSL didn't contract a player who they obviously felt was very important to them
You tell me which of those wasn't done legitamately.
How are they isolationist? I don't feel like it's necessary for me to explain that aspect, but if you can't figure it out from ALL of the comments from the users here alone, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Which is fine. That's a whole different debate, and quite honestly a debate that really deserves a better venue than the TL forums in their current, sensationalistic, state.
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On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad?
EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc.
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@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL.
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On July 27 2011 03:36 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:28 Grimsong wrote:On July 27 2011 03:26 Djzapz wrote:
[
Let's look at Koreans, in the future, being reluctant to send players in the US because there's always a chance that big US teams with big US sponsors will snag players off their ranks if they're successful. Or Korea can contract those valuable players, sort of like what EG has done. Smart business is smart. Or Korea can choose not to send their players to international events, and continue being isolationist and elitist. That would be their loss at the end of the day, because the writings on the wall in regards to the Korean SC2 scene (or should I say lackthereof) Korean teams can't compete with US teams which will have more money for obvious reasons. And smart business is obviously smart when it's not done legitimately. There are always good ways to make a buck off of disingenuous practices. Smart and dishonest I guess. And how are they isolationist anyway? They're just starting to have a few reasons to fly out of Korea once in a while when they're eliminated from GSL.
If Korea cant compete with the big boys, its time to go back to the kiddie pool. US snagging players? you say it like we abduct them against their will and force them to play... stop being a drama queen. grow up. and figure out how events are really happening.
as for Korea, being isolationist? it took them the better part of this year to figure out the western scene even existed.... even though we have more fans. better fans. more tourneys. and more money for prizes. oh, and EVERY one of those tournies are much more player friendly than the GSL, you are not locked into a month long commitment and face the possibility of losing your Code seed, if you miss a day and go abroad.
you have to be pretty unaware of whats going on to let that happen. and thats why Korean teams are struggling with money.
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I knew it was blown out of proportion the first time I read the translated article. Some people have absolutely no tact or respect for professional e-sports.
Lee venting in public was an extremely asinine move. He is at fault 100% for making it blow up to a level that is just simply retarded.
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At most, EG made a minor mistake in not approaching Lee first. And Lee made a minor mistake venting publicly. And yeah, EG's apology is more of a defensive argument than a real apology, but the whole thing has been blown out of proportion so it's perfectly understandable that they're more interested in presenting their side of things. In short, the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.
The *good* news is that this is another sign of SC2 moving towards a professional and international sport. SC2 needs more stability and financial support for their pro players and EG is delivering that.
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On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc.
Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all?
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On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL.
Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene?
But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case.
On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all?
Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place.
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Unfortunately looks like PuMa's at fault here, and I say it's unfortunate because he has been around long enough to know that managers are there to manage the players, and when you go around their back they tend to feel betrayed... because they have been. Clearly Coach Lee feel's betrayed because the decisions were made, even if no contracts were signed, that PuMa was leaving TSL to EG before any talk with him had occurred on the subject.
If PuMa decided that he wanted to talk to Coach Lee first to talk about an opportunity at EG, then he should have done so as soon as he was approached by EG, not after he'd decided he was leaving. Furthermore, if EG started negotiating further than general "we'd like to support a Korean Pro" talks, then they should have made sure that TSL's management was up to speed. Of course I have no idea if they did or not.
Whether it was all PuMa's doing or if EG also allowed it to happen by going straight into negotiations with the player, TSL's management was sidestepped which is, as others have stated, extremely unprofessional and disrespectful. Hopefully players in the future will make sure to keep their management informed of any discussions and decisions they've been having with, and about other teams.
After all, it would be in their own best interest. Firstly, they would avoid all of this hullabaloo over a controversy. This would also result in more direct support from fans who would have been super excited to have another Korean join a foreign team. Now instead of excitement we have a "who do we blame" game. Secondly, they might be able to negotiate a better situation and/or contract with all three parties at the table, it's negotiation 101.
That being said I'm glad EG is at least open to a retroactive negotiation though it really is in their own best interest to do so if they want to have any kind of relationship with Korean teams and players.
In conclusion as I've already gone on far too long. I sincerely hope to see more and more Korean players proliferate the foreign scene and whether a team or player be from Korea or anywhere else in the world, a team's management is there to manage the players and no matter the culture, no one should be sidestepping their responsibility.
-Katu
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things.
Yeah I wish he would apologize to Milkis  but the apology to coach lee was a great gesture
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On July 27 2011 03:25 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:17 cavalier117 wrote:On July 27 2011 02:21 Vertical wrote:On July 27 2011 02:16 originalred04 wrote:
I think Korean sponsors don't care about US fan base....what can they advertise to us? A. Don't speak the language at all, B. Couldn't buy their products.
Koreans are in Foreign tourny's cause that's were the money is at, and they have a great chance of winning. this was also true but which one has bigger viewer ? IPL or GSL ? EG Master Cup or GSTL ? i dont think foreign scene that exclude koreans having better viewer either highest rated turnament all have foreigner vs korean matches MLG, Dreamhack, NASL, etc btw i see ur point about korean product dont need foreign exposure they need more local viewers anyway this getting of topic :D one thing to consider though Vertical, is that that the GSL/GSTL, while being at horrible viewing times for us westerners, we still make up the majority of the viewer count. Koreans really dont watch sc2.... comparatively to BW. on the other hand, thats basically all we westerners watch. Koreans, on the other really do make up a sizable viewer audience in western things (not saying you guys dont watch it. but your not a giant chunk of the pie.) now compare western tourneys (everything other than Korea basically) not only do we watch the GSL, but we also watch the IPL/MLG/Dreamhack/IEM/NASL, and i believe(not positive, but fairly sure) that all of those event actually get higher numbers of live viewers AND with the exception of NASL, all the VODs are free. unlike GOM, which is terrible business sense, bc the overwhelming majority of viewers wont pay 25$ for each season. that means less VOD viewership which also means less advertising. so yea, I'd say, at the end of the day. we have the viewer count. People need to realize that times are changing rapidly. Korea isnt the the absolute center of the ESPORTS universe anymore. they still have the best players(for now) but the rest of the world has already surpassed them in everything but player skill. and they are even catching up rapidly in that. i look forward to another GSL vs the World Tourney. think how close it was last time. and the absolute best foreigners didnt even go. I've tried this point to, people still don't get it man. Once you register on TL... - Korea is the best thing since sliced bread. - Only Korean values matter - Anything other than Korean values being presented means you should apologize to Korea for not acting as if you are also Korean. - Korea. - Business goes out the window. - Insert some funny quote about Korea not using Contracts but respect, without even considering Kespa in the equation. - The rest of the world doesn't matter, because Korea exists. I'm really shocked at how everyone expects EG, AG, and the community to bend at every whim for the Korean SC community. You know what stops all of this from happening? Korea getting it right. Not plastering out there that EG signed Puma to a contract when Puma hadn't signed anywhere yet (including TSL which had the opportunity to provide Puma with a contract prior to NASL, prior to him talking to EG, and even after he talked to EG). You don't think playpxp or whatever got it wrong by reporting that Puma signed a contract with EG when EG was still handling things in-house (not blaming Milikis calm down white knights)? Where's the apology for that? Creating outrage amongst the SC2 community one way or the other, costing a team that has invested a great deal of time/money in being a professional team (outside the scope of the SC2 scene, EG has existed longer than that)? If the article read something more accurate like, say, "TSL and Puma part ways, Puma and EG likely to partner" then it would be a different story. But the whole feeling from the outset has been this "EG sniped Puma" undertone and quite frankly that isn't fair to EG.
I like and agree with most of this post. I think people are getting up in arms defending a culture that most people have no fucking idea about. I assure you 100% that before this whole "Korean culture dictates you talk to the coach first" shit came out, most people wouldn't give two shits about who talked to who first. Especially because of the circumstances (PuMa requested he be the person to talk to Coach Lee first).
I think that what Lee did was entirely sensationalist bullshit. He went to the presses immediately after hearing this, and poisoned the well for anyone reading, making EG out to be monsters. Now Alex makes a post clarifying everything and offering to pay Lee for PuMa, something AG does not fucking need to do but he's willing to in order to help ease the tension.
For all the people talking about all the time and money Lee put into PuMa: are you expecting him to forever be on TSL? Where are all the people talking about Rain leaving, when he received the same training and treatment from Lee (and even had results prior to NASL)? What about any player that has ever left any team ever, even on amicable terms, that has received any kind of support from the team?
This whole thing is so ridiculous.
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On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:
Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene?
But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case.
If you want to talk about how stuff is handled in every sport, TSL would have contracted Puma, and we're done mulling over this really nonsensical discussion at this point. But TSL didn't contract him.
From my experience Professional teams contract their players, which I guess is what EG did and TSL didn't do.
And then you went and lumped Milikis into that point? That's just grasping at straws and using buzzwords to stir up controversy and drama. Milikis is completely separate from this issue of TSL/EG/Puma.
Yes, it's definitely a trash scene that a kid gets to professional game via contract around the world. Trash trash trash.
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EPT
