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On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc.
Verbal contracts are worth $0.00 USD. Good fact to know.
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@Djzapaz
Clearly you do not have a comprehensive understanding of how contracts are negotiated and how these "things" are handled in other sports. The minor leagues are stocked full of adults that are under contract trying to prove themselves worthy of a promotion to the major leagues and the hopes of making more money.....FYI they also get paid because they are under contract.
Point of order the Milkis situation has nothing to do with this current argument so stop making emotional blunders in your attempt to be logical.
I'm not sure what you know, I'm betting not as much as you should know, but the SC2 scene is pretty great, amazing even. It's growing in a way Broodwar never did.
Addressing the Milkis situation, Alex was simple having a discussion about the fact that translators include their own bias in there translations. Which is a very valid point. If the title of the article is different then the whole situation is perceived differently. Or maybe you think everyone is non biased?
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On July 27 2011 03:49 cavalier117 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:36 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:28 Grimsong wrote:On July 27 2011 03:26 Djzapz wrote:
[
Let's look at Koreans, in the future, being reluctant to send players in the US because there's always a chance that big US teams with big US sponsors will snag players off their ranks if they're successful. Or Korea can contract those valuable players, sort of like what EG has done. Smart business is smart. Or Korea can choose not to send their players to international events, and continue being isolationist and elitist. That would be their loss at the end of the day, because the writings on the wall in regards to the Korean SC2 scene (or should I say lackthereof) Korean teams can't compete with US teams which will have more money for obvious reasons. And smart business is obviously smart when it's not done legitimately. There are always good ways to make a buck off of disingenuous practices. Smart and dishonest I guess. And how are they isolationist anyway? They're just starting to have a few reasons to fly out of Korea once in a while when they're eliminated from GSL. If Korea cant compete with the big boys, its time to go back to the kiddie pool. US snagging players? you say it like we abduct them against their will and force them to play... stop being a drama queen. grow up. and figure out how events are really happening. as for Korea, being isolationist? it took them the better part of this year to figure out the western scene even existed.... even though we have more fans. better fans. more tourneys. and more money for prizes. oh, and EVERY one of those tournies are much more player friendly than the GSL, you are not locked into a month long commitment and face the possibility of losing your Code seed, if you miss a day and go abroad. you have to be pretty unaware of whats going on to let that happen. and thats why Korean teams are struggling with money.
what an insult to the koreans for dominating the sport they are competing in.
if sc2 dies in korea, then EVERYBODY loses cuz the audience sees shitty foreign players in the finals of every tournament (by shitty i mean comparatively shitty)
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On July 27 2011 03:55 Tleaf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things.  but the apology to coach lee was a great gesture
Do you people not read?!
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On July 27 2011 03:56 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:
Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene?
But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. And then you went and lumped Milikis into that point? That's just grasping at straws and using buzzwords to stir up controversy and drama. Milikis is completely separate from this issue of TSL/EG/Puma. Yes, it's definitely a trash scene that a kid gets to professional game via contract around the world. Trash trash trash.
I talked about Milkis to point out that EG is entirely capable of acting in a stupid and childish way which is exactly what they did when they approached him directly. I'm not trying to stir up controversy and drama, the thread is progressing so quickly that there are probably like 3 people reading, and apparently they're mostly fanboys who like to think that this transaction was done properly.
TSL didn't have a formal contract for Puma, and yet even if they did, approaching Puma directly was worthy of the minor leagues.
On July 27 2011 03:57 originalred04 wrote:
Point of order the Milkis situation has nothing to do with this current argument so stop making emotional blunders in your attempt to be logical.
Guess I hit a nerve. I wasn't using logic at all. (Logic is a rather specific thing!)
EG's administration can be immature and that's why I brought up Milkis. Might as well have brought up this OP, which is nothing short of "I'm sorry but I did nothing wrong" like 10 times.
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On July 27 2011 03:59 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:49 cavalier117 wrote:On July 27 2011 03:36 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:28 Grimsong wrote:On July 27 2011 03:26 Djzapz wrote:
[
Let's look at Koreans, in the future, being reluctant to send players in the US because there's always a chance that big US teams with big US sponsors will snag players off their ranks if they're successful. Or Korea can contract those valuable players, sort of like what EG has done. Smart business is smart. Or Korea can choose not to send their players to international events, and continue being isolationist and elitist. That would be their loss at the end of the day, because the writings on the wall in regards to the Korean SC2 scene (or should I say lackthereof) Korean teams can't compete with US teams which will have more money for obvious reasons. And smart business is obviously smart when it's not done legitimately. There are always good ways to make a buck off of disingenuous practices. Smart and dishonest I guess. And how are they isolationist anyway? They're just starting to have a few reasons to fly out of Korea once in a while when they're eliminated from GSL. If Korea cant compete with the big boys, its time to go back to the kiddie pool. US snagging players? you say it like we abduct them against their will and force them to play... stop being a drama queen. grow up. and figure out how events are really happening. as for Korea, being isolationist? it took them the better part of this year to figure out the western scene even existed.... even though we have more fans. better fans. more tourneys. and more money for prizes. oh, and EVERY one of those tournies are much more player friendly than the GSL, you are not locked into a month long commitment and face the possibility of losing your Code seed, if you miss a day and go abroad. you have to be pretty unaware of whats going on to let that happen. and thats why Korean teams are struggling with money. what an insult to the koreans for dominating the sport they are competing in. if sc2 dies in korea, then EVERYBODY loses cuz the audience sees shitty foreign players in the finals of every tournament (by shitty i mean comparatively shitty)
When non-Koreans get better, does that mean we can then dismiss Korea? Food for thought.
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On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place.
Every other sport has contracts with clear terms describing the conditions of employment, and there's a governing body to determine how transfers happen. There is no contract here. It is an at will employment situation
And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system
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I bought Machine dinner once. Alex Garfield owes me money because I'm Korean and that dinner was a respectful unwritten agreement.
Seriously.
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On July 27 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. Kick the doors in and say now we own this place. Every other sport has contracts with clear terms describing the conditions of employment, and there's a governing body to determine how transfers happen. There is no contract here. It is an at will employment situation And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system
Korea customs aren't the norm but should be respected. Granted, I understand your point: perhaps we should abuse the flaws in their honor-based culture with the strengths of good ole' money and soul binding paper.
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Guess I hit a nerve. I wasn't using logic at all. (Logic is a rather specific thing!)
EG's administration can be immature and that's why I brought up Milkis. Might as well have brought up this OP, which is nothing short of "I'm sorry but I did nothing wrong" like 10 times.[/QUOTE]
Nah no nerve was hit, Just stating that you are mixing up 2 different issues. I guess the US invented contracts...ever heard of Kespa??? Oh wait my bad America is the cause of every wrong in the world, silly me.
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On July 27 2011 04:05 originalred04 wrote:
Nah no nerve was hit, Just stating that you are mixing up 2 different issues. I guess the US invented contracts...ever heard of Kespa??? Oh wait my bad America is the cause of every wrong in the world, silly me.
Strawman =_=
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@Djzapz
Honor-based system? Not paying your employees is honor based? Covering up a child sex abuse scandal is honor based? Kespa is honor based? I'm all for money and soul binding paper if thats the alternative to "honor based"
Strawman?? then adress the old Kespa ways.
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On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:Thanks for your side of the story. Although, I believe EG may have indirectly sparked kespa 2.0 Puma was really becoming the Ace of a team that didn't "yet" have enough sponsors to support him as well as EG. imo. This was EG looking at Puma and whispering to themselves "omg, no salary, no contract, he's awesome, let's get him". If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster. Puma hwaiting, and best of luck. Poll: Team EG0 was already a fan and still am (1969) 43% -1 fan (1818) 40% +1 fan (802) 17% 4589 total votes Your vote: Team EG (Vote): +1 fan
(Vote): -1 fan
(Vote): 0 was already a fan and still am
there is another possibility:
not a fan before and not a fan after
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On July 27 2011 04:05 originalred04 wrote:
Guess I hit a nerve. I wasn't using logic at all. (Logic is a rather specific thing!)
EG's administration can be immature and that's why I brought up Milkis. Might as well have brought up this OP, which is nothing short of "I'm sorry but I did nothing wrong" like 10 times.
Nah no nerve was hit, Just stating that you are mixing up 2 different issues. I guess the US invented contracts...ever heard of Kespa??? Oh wait my bad America is the cause of every wrong in the world, silly me. [/QUOTE]
Right? All of these people talking about how America is corrupting E-Sports.
Yall must be real good at hiding Kespa in the closet.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 27 2011 03:59 NightAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:55 Tleaf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 27 2011 03:51 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:47 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz,
I'm asking you to tell me what was wrong with what EG did. They talked to the player, player talked to the coach, coach freaked out. How is this EG's fault? It would be better if they talk to Lee, then he freaks out, then they sign Puma anyway? Either way you will hate on it. No contract so they talked to the player first, had there been a contract they would have talked to the team. Very ethical, very practical.
I had no problem with what EG did before they ever told their side, I thought this was a bunch of muke raking the moment i read it on TL. Maybe I'm not too familiar with the way stuff is handled in every sport, but from my experience you don't go behind a team's back and directly approach a player trying to get them to join your team. This may happen in the minor leagues, like where the children play or something... Which I guess is what EG does because you wouldn't think an ADULT would bash Milkis like that. Things may be different in this scene? But what do I know, really, maybe the SC2 scene is just trash and we should accept things like this. I like to think that it's not the case. Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:51 Hawk wrote:On July 27 2011 03:43 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:40 originalred04 wrote:
@Djzapz
What was disingenuous about it, and what was illegitimate? Read the response if he had been in a contract they would have bought out his contract like they did with several other players. There was no contract, read that again, there was no contract. If Korea can't compere with US teams then that means Koreans will get paid on US teams instead of working for free on a Korean one, how is this bad? EG says it's fine so it's fine? Come on. Koreans have many "spoken contracts" basically, and EG went and talked to the player without contacting the team, etc. Why should spoken agreements that are only honored in Korea make any difference to a team that is not located there?? And since there's no group overseeing these transactions, why is it that people assume the default should be the korean way of doing things, which no one else does at all? Respect for a culture and a way of doing things, but I guess EG might US it up and just force a people to change its way of doing things. but the apology to coach lee was a great gesture Do you people not read?!
You didnt read the original he edited in the Milkis part later and yes I'm sorry for not re-reading the original post and I'm glad he said something about Milkis
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On July 27 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:
And again, that doesnt answer the question. Why is it that you think Korea customs are automatically the norm in a transaction between two teams in two different countries in an international sport?? Everyone keeps falling back to that but it makes no sense. If anything, it proves the need for some kind of Kespa system
You should respect the other person that you're dealing with. It's not every sport or international an international thing.
A good analogy would be like a store insulting their customers. The customer might not come back, and might back out on the deal.
It's not just Korea, but it's like that everywhere. If this transaction was done with another country, those customs should be respected as well.
Edit for clarification.
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im still having trouble figuring out who is supposedly at fault for what exactly? at fault for making some coach dude pissed off? oh well, who cares? lol he mad?
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On July 27 2011 04:01 NightAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:59 Condor Hero wrote:On July 27 2011 03:49 cavalier117 wrote:On July 27 2011 03:36 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:28 Grimsong wrote:On July 27 2011 03:26 Djzapz wrote:
[
Let's look at Koreans, in the future, being reluctant to send players in the US because there's always a chance that big US teams with big US sponsors will snag players off their ranks if they're successful. Or Korea can contract those valuable players, sort of like what EG has done. Smart business is smart. Or Korea can choose not to send their players to international events, and continue being isolationist and elitist. That would be their loss at the end of the day, because the writings on the wall in regards to the Korean SC2 scene (or should I say lackthereof) Korean teams can't compete with US teams which will have more money for obvious reasons. And smart business is obviously smart when it's not done legitimately. There are always good ways to make a buck off of disingenuous practices. Smart and dishonest I guess. And how are they isolationist anyway? They're just starting to have a few reasons to fly out of Korea once in a while when they're eliminated from GSL. If Korea cant compete with the big boys, its time to go back to the kiddie pool. US snagging players? you say it like we abduct them against their will and force them to play... stop being a drama queen. grow up. and figure out how events are really happening. as for Korea, being isolationist? it took them the better part of this year to figure out the western scene even existed.... even though we have more fans. better fans. more tourneys. and more money for prizes. oh, and EVERY one of those tournies are much more player friendly than the GSL, you are not locked into a month long commitment and face the possibility of losing your Code seed, if you miss a day and go abroad. you have to be pretty unaware of whats going on to let that happen. and thats why Korean teams are struggling with money. what an insult to the koreans for dominating the sport they are competing in. if sc2 dies in korea, then EVERYBODY loses cuz the audience sees shitty foreign players in the finals of every tournament (by shitty i mean comparatively shitty) When non-Koreans get better, does that mean we can then dismiss Korea? Food for thought.
Glad I'm not the only one who finds the elitism involved in the Korean scene to be completely disrespectful to the rest of the world.
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On July 27 2011 03:59 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:49 cavalier117 wrote:On July 27 2011 03:36 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2011 03:28 Grimsong wrote:On July 27 2011 03:26 Djzapz wrote:
[
Let's look at Koreans, in the future, being reluctant to send players in the US because there's always a chance that big US teams with big US sponsors will snag players off their ranks if they're successful. Or Korea can contract those valuable players, sort of like what EG has done. Smart business is smart. Or Korea can choose not to send their players to international events, and continue being isolationist and elitist. That would be their loss at the end of the day, because the writings on the wall in regards to the Korean SC2 scene (or should I say lackthereof) Korean teams can't compete with US teams which will have more money for obvious reasons. And smart business is obviously smart when it's not done legitimately. There are always good ways to make a buck off of disingenuous practices. Smart and dishonest I guess. And how are they isolationist anyway? They're just starting to have a few reasons to fly out of Korea once in a while when they're eliminated from GSL. If Korea cant compete with the big boys, its time to go back to the kiddie pool. US snagging players? you say it like we abduct them against their will and force them to play... stop being a drama queen. grow up. and figure out how events are really happening. as for Korea, being isolationist? it took them the better part of this year to figure out the western scene even existed.... even though we have more fans. better fans. more tourneys. and more money for prizes. oh, and EVERY one of those tournies are much more player friendly than the GSL, you are not locked into a month long commitment and face the possibility of losing your Code seed, if you miss a day and go abroad. you have to be pretty unaware of whats going on to let that happen. and thats why Korean teams are struggling with money. what an insult to the koreans for dominating the sport they are competing in. if sc2 dies in korea, then EVERYBODY loses cuz the audience sees shitty foreign players in the finals of every tournament (by shitty i mean comparatively shitty)
first of all. if Sc2 died in Korea, it wouldnt even matter at this point. the koreans would just join international teams and that would be it. the GSL has produced about 3 hours worth of interesting games in like 9 monthes. there is a reason everybody, including the casters bash it.
second. we dont owe Korea shit, we dont owe them allegiance, we dont have to bow down and kiss their feet. all this blind Korea worshipping is just getting old. Nobody says anything when koreans disrespect us(which they do alot, a certain "Koreans own White dudes" on the podium of a huge tourney comes to mind) in case you hadnt noticed. the foreign scene is doing more than ok. poeple like you, are part of the problem concerning issues like this.
(No trolls, i dont dislike Korea or anything, but they arent gods of esports or anything)
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I wish there was a like button on TL like on Facebook, it would be enjoyable, we need some more features TL!
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