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Robonord
United States311 Posts
- Puma is a 19 yr old who just left his home country for the first time and is arguably in the most high pressure situation of his life and EG approaches him. He was not in the proper mental state to be talked to about contracts, etc. - While he wasn't "technically" under contract with TSL he was still apart of the team as there are no contracts for Korean teams AFAIK. To me, this is just as bad as "sniping" a player under contract. | ||
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote: he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Seconding this, love how EG is trying to sweep this under the rug. Stay classy EG | ||
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farvacola
United States18820 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:15 jenzebubble wrote: In most every professional sporting league that is considered tampering and is very illegal. http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-09-21/sports/17932653_1_darrius-heyward-bey-tampering-receiver http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/03/tampering-minaya-and-cabrera/ http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/article/MLS-clears-Sounders-FC-of-tampering-paving-way-1294666.php Those mean NOTHING, because in every other professional sporting league players have agents, making the comparison meaningless in the first place. Pro gamers in Korea do not have any effective system of player representation, whereas in "most every professional sporting league" the opposite is true, with strong player organizations and burgeoning agent systems. | ||
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outerspace02
United States136 Posts
this explanation is useless | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
TSL - Again, if we are to believe what Alex wrote is true, then Mr. Lee is at fault for 1) failing to communicate effectively to PuMa that he did not want PuMa to leave (if PuMa thought the conversation was amicable, it appears he mis-interpreted the discussion) and 2) for going to the press as quickly as he did. If I may speculate a bit, it seems to me that Lee was upset at the general state of foreign teams vs. Korean teams (that is, foreign teams being more financially supported and fan supported than in Korea) and in specific about the fact that EG tried to lure players from Korean teams (if I recall correctly, Mr. Lee said in his interview something to the effect of EG trying to acquire Korean players from other teams as well, which Alex admits to). PuMa - His fault is also two-fold. If I'm correct in believing that whatever discussion happened between PuMa and Mr. Lee was mis-interpreted by PuMa, then he is at fault for failing to understand Mr.Lee's position. But the larger fault, at least in my mind, is in suggesting that a talk between himself and Mr. Lee was the correct first step. PuMa should have understood that trades ALWAYS happen between teams, and even if he was not contracted to TSL, he was still a player on the team and as such had no business trying to arrange a trade for himself. More on this below. EG - In my mind, EG bears the largest portion of the blame. As others above me have pointed out, EG was clearly in the wrong for approaching PuMa at a tournament that he was still in. If a player is knocked out of a tournament, then I feel it is acceptable to approach them. I don't pretend to know how these things go on, but I cannot imagine a situation in which either a player or team would feel it acceptable to approach a player in the midst of a tournament. EG also did themselves no favors by waiting to make a detailed statement until today; I realize that Alex did appear on WoC, but waiting this long to write out a statement puts them way behind the curve on managing the situation. As k!llua stated in his post, waiting even a day, much less several, in releasing a statement is like being a week behind. But the largest mistake EG made, and clearly the mistake that ultimately led to this situation, is in contacting the player before the organization. Alex states that it was merely a "first step" and that they intended all along to contact TSL. The simple fact is, though, YOU MUST CONTACT THE ORGANIZATION FIRST NO MATTER WHAT. In modern sports you will seldom hear of a team approaching a player to sign first; the respectful, traditional and mainly legal protocol is to ask the team (and by ask I mean negotiate a fee for) talking to the player. Take professional football, for example. If Manchester United wants to sign a player from Arsenal, they don't go directly to the player and ask him to talk to his coach. They first talk to the team that owns said player, THEN AND ONLY THEN do they talk to the player's agent and the player themself. I realize that the analogy is not a perfect one, as PuMa was not contracted to TSL. The fact of the matter is, though, that PuMa was a player for TSL and by talking to the player instead of the management first EG ignored the established method, setting off the controversy. It's one thing if a player leaves a team of his own volition; it's quite another if he leaves one team for another without the two teams having agreed upon the transfer. Some of you might say that ESPORTS is not run the same way as professional sports. To that I say that ESPORTS needs to grow up and start acting like a professional sport if it wants to be ranked among them. It is incumbent upon the teams to act in a professional, forthright manner just as it is incumbent upon the fans to support those teams and players. Oh, and a note for EG: it doesn't help you at all to malign other teams in your mea culpa. Outright attacking of other teams for how much support they do or do not support their players financially is not acceptable under any circumstances, much less the ones you find yourself in now. Milkis - Poor Milkis has, in my mind, the least of the blame, though he did exacerbate the situation. Milkis' fault was trying to argue a side in the debate that he did not have all the facts on. Truth be told, Milkis never should have been on WoC sparring with Alex. He didn't have all the facts, he was not affiliated with either side, and he had no real insight into the situation to share. His appearance on WoC only made the situation worse. That said, he should be applauded for breaking the story to the English-speaking audience. All that being said, I draw one big idea from this whole fiasco, as well as the other news bites coming out recently: being a professional gamer in Korea is not as alluring as in foreign locations. We are seeing a small exodus of players from Korean teams to NA/EU teams, of which PuMa is only one of many, and the small exodus threatens to turn into a large one if Korean teams don't make it more attractive to stay in Korea. Whether that is with more tournaments, more sponsors and money, or something else entirely, a paradigm shift is beginning and something needs to be done if Korea wants to maintain its dominance in the SC2 world. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:15 jenzebubble wrote: In most every professional sporting league that is considered tampering and is very illegal. http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-09-21/sports/17932653_1_darrius-heyward-bey-tampering-receiver http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/03/tampering-minaya-and-cabrera/ http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/article/MLS-clears-Sounders-FC-of-tampering-paving-way-1294666.php Even then, it would probably have to depend on the contract. I'd assumed a team not willing to resign a player would allow them to talk to potential teams. | ||
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SafeAsCheese
United States4924 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:19 Maliris wrote: Seconding this, love how EG is trying to sweep this under the rug. Stay classy EG *sigh* Edit: I didn't want to comment on the Milkis/journalism situation in this particular post, because I think it deserves its own discussion, and would be distracting to the subject matter of this post. This thread should be about EG, PuMa, and TSL. I will be making a separate post regarding Milkis later in the week. For the record, while I stand by the points I made on that subject, I have already apologized to him in private for my accusatory tone and approach to him on the show. Better think of something now, so that you can complain about something in the milkis apology thread later on as well. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
4) PuMa was not contracted by TSL, and did not receive a salary. lol I thought this was a big deal until reading this! 10) PuMa is very happy to be on the team, and asks that the community be supportive of both him and EG. Yeah guys thanks for being supportive and understanding for EG! We really have great Puma fans on TeamLiquid. | ||
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pt
United States813 Posts
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:19 Robonord wrote: While this post was nicely put together I still have a few problems with the way this was handled: - Puma is a 19 yr old who just left his home country for the first time and is arguably in the most high pressure situation of his life and EG approaches him. He was not in the proper mental state to be talked to about contracts, etc. - While he wasn't "technically" under contract with TSL he was still apart of the team as there are no contracts for Korean teams AFAIK. To me, this is just as bad as "sniping" a player under contract. i agree with you, fuck the he wasnt under contract excuse. he was playing under a TSL tag, his team paid for his plane ticket, so dont act stupid like EG didnt know he wasnt affiliated with a team | ||
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Thrax
Canada1755 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:19 Maliris wrote: Seconding this, love how EG is trying to sweep this under the rug. Stay classy EG But they aren't trying to sweep it under the rug - quite the opposite, they think it's so important that it deserves its own post. | ||
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Ome
Canada157 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:18 jenzebubble wrote: Here's a hint: read my post. They have been contacting PLAYERS directly that are SIGNED to contracts. It's not illegal because there is no governing body to say it's illegal. In baseball, football, basketball etc, the league makes it illegal for teams to contact other teams players, and there are harsh penalties for breaking those rules. No such governing body exists for SC2 currently, and we are a long ways away from such. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:05 Serpico wrote: and unknown talent is just talent, it isnt a refined thing. You dont pay people lots of money when they're no where near to showing results. EG had the money to pay a player like Puma and support him so they did. I don't mean talent in the sense of NFL Combine potential. I mean there are extremely good players already available, and they're simply unknown because we, in the West, don't know about them. Last month it was DRG, this month it'll be Seal or Puzzle or Tandangho. It's not as if Puma was a known quantity when EG began talking to him. He had won the NASL open and an iCCup Weekly at that point. My point is that I would be hesitant to make anyone the top paid player in Korea if they had such a short playing career, or unless they had an extremely strong pedigree such as forGG. The floodgates on BW B-teamers and low A-teamers will open any second and there will be lots of comparable talent. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:16 seiferoth10 wrote: Do you honestly not see the difference between those articles and this situation? Here's a hint: the answer is in the OP, you should read that too. Where does the OP mention Sen? Oh and btw - if you mean the "no contract" thing. Kinda lucky to get the player without a contract with no prior knowledge of him having / not having a contract  | ||
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:19 farvacola wrote: Those mean NOTHING, because in every other professional sporting league players have agents, making the comparison meaningless in the first place. Pro gamers in Korea do not have any effective system of player representation, whereas in "most every professional sporting league" the opposite is true, with strong player organizations and burgeoning agent systems. If you know anything about the history of sports, that was not always true. The players unions had to fight tooth and nail for every benefit they have ever gotten from the owners. There wasn't even true free agency in the NFL until 93. The teams will never want a players union because it would weaken their hold on the players. | ||
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
As a 30 year old, if someone approaches me with a job offer, i know to go through channels, be upfront and honest about my intentions, communicate effectively, and not get feelings involved. As a 20 year old, though i can't see many people having the experience to deal with that type of situation. I think a big part of Coach Lee's objection was that he felt the decision was harming his player's mental state or that his player was coerced into a decision. That whole step gets thrown out if you just contact management first. Hopefully this situation is the first and only time this happens in this fashion, but good luck to all involved because i don't believe there is any real bad intentions going on here. | ||
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Dismay
United States1180 Posts
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jenzebubble
United States183 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:21 Ome wrote: It's not illegal because there is no governing body to say it's illegal. In baseball, football, basketball etc, the league makes it illegal for teams to contact other teams players, and there are harsh penalties for breaking those rules. No such governing body exists for SC2 currently, and we are a long ways away from such. I am imagine we are closer to KeSPA ala SC2 than you think. This incident gave the Koreans all the motivation they need. That is the real reason EG is showing any remorse whatsoever. | ||
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Thrax
Canada1755 Posts
On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote: Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion. That the manager of fnatic has no issue with the conversation itself is quite telling. | ||
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
All in all, EG is the most at fault of the three for letting Puma tell Coach Lee and then taking such a long time to form a response. Flying off the handle at Milkis didn't help either. Puma was thoroughly unprepared to arrange a meeting between TSL and EG. Because of the way he handled it, TSL felt they had already lost him and panicked into negative press mode TSL released a very harsh statement without even warning EG about it, generating such a backlash against them that its hard to say how long it will take for EG to regain its fanbase. Its almost slanderous in nature and I would liken it to financing a political campaign designed to make the opposition look like fools. I realize they are certainly not going to be pleased about losing Puma, but they didn't even try to negotiate any kind of agreement. Within days of this 'scandal' we see that partnerships can be made -> see FXO aquiring fou, coL.MVP partnership, Dignitas/zeNEX pick-up. Everyone has some share of the blame, but EG should have responded a hell of a lot faster than they did for their part. TSL isn't necessarily entitled to compensation considering the way they flipped out so i feel it is very gracious of EG to offer retroactive negotiations, but at this point it seems like an act of surrender than one of good intentions. I hope that this kind of situation is avoided in the future. | ||
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