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On July 24 2011 20:28 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote:
lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family. I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money. This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two. All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none. Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no. I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no. Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
Obsessed with business and money? This is their livelihood. They play to eat.
It's ridiculous to think that Puma should say with TSL as a non-contracted player out of good faith when he can be making more money (and thus securing a better future for himself) on EG.
People need to stop acting like TSL is a team run by saints. If he wasn't performing at the level they expected of him then they'd bounce him right out of the house. Korean business isn't any different from American or western business despite whatever picture of honor and respect they try to paint for themselves.
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So, many things went wrong with the acquisition of Puma which resulted in all this negative publicity towards EG. All the "hate" EG is receiving isn't fair but a lot of it is justified. There was nothing wrong with EG wanting to acquire Puma since he was under no contract with TSL, but the manner in which EG approached Puma can be seen as shady.
EG approached Puma while at the NASL and by what has been said they clearly mentioned some of the perks in joining EG and what they could offer Puma. This is quite obvious since coach Lee stated that Puma had already made up his mind when they talked. This decision by EG to not contact TSL is what started all this shit storm. It's true that Puma requested that EG not contact TSL about their proposal but, adhering to Puma's request was their second mistake. Sure you want to respect the wishes of the player you want to recruit but EG should have foreseen the reaction of TSL and the community. There's a saying in competitive team sports that goes like "no player is above the team." For a company with so many years in the ESports business, I'm surprised that they didn't contact TSL despite the players request. I would hope with so much experience they would have foreseen the outcome of their actions and did what was best for EG's image (contact TSL first). If Puma didn't like the idea too bad, you put the interest of your business first as Alex stated in WoC. But EG decided to ignore this simple procedure in order to sign Puma without an interference (my own opinion) which resulted in the deal being portrayed as negative.
After coach Lee spoke to Puma about his decision to join EG an article was posted in PlayXp regarding the situation. Milkis translated the article for the TL community on what was going on and EG blamed Milkis for tarnishing EG's image. Later Alex goes on Woc and attacks Milkis implying that it was his fault for the shit storm that followed, questioning him why he didn't get both sides of the story. Sorry Alex but Milkis is not a journalist and goes against what EG said during the EG Masters Cup drama regarding TL (not their business). Oh the sweet irony and hipocracy. Seeing how shady this whole ordeal was, Alex kept attacking Milkis and blaming it on his "journalism." Well guess what Alex, if you would have spoken to TSL in the first place and requested that coach Lee not speak about the possible signing of Puma this fiasco wouldn't have occurred.
After WoC, TLO blogged about the shadyness of the business EG had conducted and called them out. Part of this I'm sure was in part due to the attack on Milkis (this is just me speculating), even though TLO could have worded his blog a little different he was on point of everything he wrote. Many people saw his blog as an attack on EG (due to his wording) but the points he brought up on how EG handled the signing of Puma were all fair.
EG trying to sign Puma was fine. EG not contacting TSL was a naive move by them. It seems like people forget that a lot of the objection concerning Puma's signing originated from EG's approach. To the people saying EG not contacting TSL was fine, well it isn't. Them ignoring TSL started all this drama. The second point people bring up is how Puma wasn't under contract and blamed the coach. Puma being under contract had nothing to do with it, it is apparent that coach Lee was upset because they didn't contact him about the potential signing of Puma and didn't have an opportunity to make a counter offer. I don't care if Alex says that this is how business is done because in reality it isn't. Seeing all these fail sports comparisons just shows how people don't understand the situation and believe the way EG handled the Puma situation was fine.
People comparing the Puma situtation with a free agent in professional sports are clueless on why people objected to the EG approach. Here's the closest one I could think of: soccer youth academies of all the professional soccer clubs. All the youths in soccer academies are registered to a club (much like Puma) and have no contract with the club. At any given time a club could come in a sign a player for free due to his lack of contract. This is all fine, but the potential buyer has to address the club first and then the club talks to the player regarding his future. Once the player and parent club come to an agreement the player leaves and signs for the club that came knocking. If potential buyers don't adhere to this simple procedure there is tension between the parties involved. A simple example was Arsenal's acquisition of Fabregas when he was 16 which resulted in Barca stating that Arsenal stole Fabregas from them (much like coach Lee). Arsenal didn't approach Barca first and resulted in friction between the clubs for years. Fabregas wasn't under contract at the time but was registered with the team and Barca took care of him. To shorten the whole saga in the end Arsenal compensated Barca ( a few millions $) even though Fabregas wasn't under any contract. This exemplifies the importance of simple procedures when signing a player from another team even if not under contract.
In conclusion, there was nothing wrong with EG wanting to sign Puma but the way in which they handled the PR left much to be desired. Since Alex seems to be an expert in business he surely had no idea how to handle this new market called SCII. Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again. Good luck to all the parties involved, hopefully EG learns from this and move forward. Sorry for the long post, just adding some perspective.
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On July 25 2011 05:40 MLQ10 wrote:
So, many things went wrong with the acquisition of Puma which resulted in all this negative publicity towards EG. All the "hate" EG is receiving isn't fair but a lot of it is justified. There was nothing wrong with EG wanting to acquire Puma since he was under no contract with TSL, but the manner in which EG approached Puma can be seen as shady.
EG approached Puma while at the NASL and by what has been said they clearly mentioned some of the perks in joining EG and what they could offer Puma. This is quite obvious since coach Lee stated that Puma had already made up his mind when they talked. This decision by EG to not contact TSL is what started all this shit storm. It's true that Puma requested that EG not contact TSL about their proposal but, adhering to Puma's request was their second mistake. Sure you want to respect the wishes of the player you want to recruit but EG should have foreseen the reaction of TSL and the community. There's a saying in competitive team sports that goes like "no player is above the team." For a company with so many years in the ESports business, I'm surprised that they didn't contact TSL despite the players request. I would hope with so much experience they would have foreseen the outcome of their actions and did what was best for EG's image (contact TSL first). If Puma didn't like the idea too bad, you put the interest of your business first as Alex stated in WoC. But EG decided to ignore this simple procedure in order to sign Puma without an interference (my own opinion) which resulted in the deal being portrayed as negative.
After coach Lee spoke to Puma about his decision to join EG an article was posted in PlayXp regarding the situation. Milkis translated the article for the TL community on what was going on and EG blamed Milkis for tarnishing EG's image. Later Alex goes on Woc and attacks Milkis implying that it was his fault for the shit storm that followed, questioning him why he didn't get both sides of the story. Sorry Alex but Milkis is not a journalist and goes against what EG said during the EG Masters Cup drama regarding TL (not their business). Oh the sweet irony and hipocracy. Seeing how shady this whole ordeal was, Alex kept attacking Milkis and blaming it on his "journalism." Well guess what Alex, if you would have spoken to TSL in the first place and requested that coach Lee not speak about the possible signing of Puma this fiasco wouldn't have occurred.
After WoC, TLO blogged about the shadyness of the business EG had conducted and called them out. Part of this I'm sure was in part due to the attack on Milkis (this is just me speculating), even though TLO could have worded his blog a little different he was on point of everything he wrote. Many people saw his blog as an attack on EG (due to his wording) but the points he brought up on how EG handled the signing of Puma were all fair.
EG trying to sign Puma was fine. EG not contacting TSL was a naive move by them. It seems like people forget that a lot of the objection concerning Puma's signing originated from EG's approach. To the people saying EG not contacting TSL was fine, well it isn't. Them ignoring TSL started all this drama. The second point people bring up is how Puma wasn't under contract and blamed the coach. Puma being under contract had nothing to do with it, it is apparent that coach Lee was upset because they didn't contact him about the potential signing of Puma and didn't have an opportunity to make a counter offer. I don't care if Alex says that this is how business is done because in reality it isn't. Seeing all these fail sports comparisons just shows how people don't understand the situation and believe the way EG handled the Puma situation was fine.
People comparing the Puma situtation with a free agent in professional sports are clueless on why people objected to the EG approach. Here's the closest one I could think of: soccer youth academies of all the professional soccer clubs. All the youths in soccer academies are registered to a club (much like Puma) and have no contract with the club. At any given time a club could come in a sign a player for free due to his lack of contract. This is all fine, but the potential buyer has to address the club first and then the club talks to the player regarding his future. Once the player and parent club come to an agreement the player leaves and signs for the club that came knocking. If potential buyers don't adhere to this simple procedure there is tension between the parties involved. A simple example was Arsenal's acquisition of Fabregas when he was 16 which resulted in Barca stating that Arsenal stole Fabregas from them (much like coach Lee). Arsenal didn't approach Barca first and resulted in friction between the clubs for years. Fabregas wasn't under contract at the time but was registered with the team and Barca took care of him. To shorten the whole saga in the end Arsenal compensated Barca ( a few millions $) even though Fabregas wasn't under any contract. This exemplifies the importance of simple procedures when signing a player from another team even if not under contract.
In conclusion, there was nothing wrong with EG wanting to sign Puma but the way in which they handled the PR left much to be desired. Since Alex seems to be an expert in business he surely had no idea how to handle this new market called SCII. Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again. Good luck to all the parties involved, hopefully EG learns from this and move forward. Sorry for the long post, just adding some perspective.
Yes, you can't freely talk to and sign free agents that have no formal affiliation with a team. That makes sense. The fact people can say that then be upset is just weird.
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On July 24 2011 20:28 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote:
lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family. I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money. This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two. All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none. Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no. I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no. Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
I like you, you managed to say what I was thinking very well. Agreed. I don't think that dumping tons of money into e-sports is a great idea just as dumping money on anything is bad practice. It's a short term gain sure but I don't like the prospects in the long term.
Also since some people said boycotts or contacting sponsors is silly. I went ahead and contacted Kingston and Intel and received personalized responses from both saying that they have heard about the news and are investigating the matter. This isn't to say that the sponsors will pull from Team EG or even do anything but the fact that the sponsors are at least aware of what their teams are doing and may hold them accountable is refreshing.
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On July 25 2011 05:56 Mazeltov wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:28 Talin wrote:On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote:
lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family. I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money. This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two. All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none. Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no. I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no. Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to. I like you, you managed to say what I was thinking very well. Agreed. I don't think that dumping tons of money into e-sports is a great idea just as dumping money on anything is bad practice. It's a short term gain sure but I don't like the prospects in the long term. Also since some people said boycotts or contacting sponsors is silly. I went ahead and contacted Kingston and Intel and received personalized responses from both saying that they have heard about the news and are investigating the matter. This isn't to say that the sponsors will pull from Team EG or even do anything but the fact that the sponsors are at least aware of what their teams are doing and may hold them accountable is refreshing.
Did you also send emails to any of TSL's sponsors informing them of Coach Lee's misconduct?
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most and only important part of the OP is this section
I sense that you are not satisfied with the Korean SC2 pro-gaming scene.
If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns.
So why didn’t you sign PuMa to a contract beforehand?
At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit.
Not sure why its such a hard concept for people to understand. PUMA was free to join any other Korean team without even telling his former team.
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On July 25 2011 06:21 purecarnagge wrote:
most and only important part of the OP is this section
I sense that you are not satisfied with the Korean SC2 pro-gaming scene.
If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns.
So why didn’t you sign PuMa to a contract beforehand?
At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit.
Not sure why its such a hard concept for people to understand. PUMA was free to join any other Korean team without even telling his former team.
I think people are upset due to a rampant amount of misinformation, and EG making a mistake in letting PuMa talk to Lee instead of EG doing it.
As far as misinformation (AG = Alex Garfield):
1.) PuMa is NOT signed as of yet. AG didn't jump all over PuMa and shove a contract in his face as soon as PuMa won NASL (AG talked to PuMa during the round of 4 anyway, so yeah)
2.) AG did not intentionally refuse to talk to Coach Lee during all of this. AG was handing out cards to a lot of players, basically to open lines of communications in case players were interested in joining EG. PuMa was interested, and PuMa said he wanted to talk to Lee first, before AG. (I believe AG said flat out that if Lee was there at NASL, he would have certainly talked to him first).
3.) In my opinion, this was not a "shady deal" it was just a matter of a team manager approaching a top player, the top player being interested, the player talking to the coach of his team (as a courtesy, really. There's nothing legally binding PuMa to the team) and the coach getting upset and accusing EG of stealing "his" player.
In no way that I can see, did EG "steal" or "poach" a player. Nothing official even happened between EG and PuMa. PuMa hasn't signed anything. EG did fail miserably to provide their side of the argument as a statement after Coach Lee's post, but there was nothing EG could have done to stop Lee from making this statement (besides going against the wishes of PuMa and talking to Coach Lee directly).
Although this all may be false (AG could have lied on WoC) given the evidence this is what I believe to be the actual story, without having the well poisoned by Coach Lee's interview or statement.
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Canada973 Posts
On July 25 2011 05:56 Mazeltov wrote:
I like you, you managed to say what I was thinking very well. Agreed. I don't think that dumping tons of money into e-sports is a great idea just as dumping money on anything is bad practice. It's a short term gain sure but I don't like the prospects in the long term.
Also since some people said boycotts or contacting sponsors is silly. I went ahead and contacted Kingston and Intel and received personalized responses from both saying that they have heard about the news and are investigating the matter. This isn't to say that the sponsors will pull from Team EG or even do anything but the fact that the sponsors are at least aware of what their teams are doing and may hold them accountable is refreshing.
So what you are saying is that by investing money into esports its going to die, so you went out of your way to try and make sure a team loses its main sponsor?? Man, that is some great logic you have.
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On July 25 2011 05:43 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 05:40 MLQ10 wrote:
So, many things went wrong with the acquisition of Puma which resulted in all this negative publicity towards EG. All the "hate" EG is receiving isn't fair but a lot of it is justified. There was nothing wrong with EG wanting to acquire Puma since he was under no contract with TSL, but the manner in which EG approached Puma can be seen as shady.
EG approached Puma while at the NASL and by what has been said they clearly mentioned some of the perks in joining EG and what they could offer Puma. This is quite obvious since coach Lee stated that Puma had already made up his mind when they talked. This decision by EG to not contact TSL is what started all this shit storm. It's true that Puma requested that EG not contact TSL about their proposal but, adhering to Puma's request was their second mistake. Sure you want to respect the wishes of the player you want to recruit but EG should have foreseen the reaction of TSL and the community. There's a saying in competitive team sports that goes like "no player is above the team." For a company with so many years in the ESports business, I'm surprised that they didn't contact TSL despite the players request. I would hope with so much experience they would have foreseen the outcome of their actions and did what was best for EG's image (contact TSL first). If Puma didn't like the idea too bad, you put the interest of your business first as Alex stated in WoC. But EG decided to ignore this simple procedure in order to sign Puma without an interference (my own opinion) which resulted in the deal being portrayed as negative.
After coach Lee spoke to Puma about his decision to join EG an article was posted in PlayXp regarding the situation. Milkis translated the article for the TL community on what was going on and EG blamed Milkis for tarnishing EG's image. Later Alex goes on Woc and attacks Milkis implying that it was his fault for the shit storm that followed, questioning him why he didn't get both sides of the story. Sorry Alex but Milkis is not a journalist and goes against what EG said during the EG Masters Cup drama regarding TL (not their business). Oh the sweet irony and hipocracy. Seeing how shady this whole ordeal was, Alex kept attacking Milkis and blaming it on his "journalism." Well guess what Alex, if you would have spoken to TSL in the first place and requested that coach Lee not speak about the possible signing of Puma this fiasco wouldn't have occurred.
After WoC, TLO blogged about the shadyness of the business EG had conducted and called them out. Part of this I'm sure was in part due to the attack on Milkis (this is just me speculating), even though TLO could have worded his blog a little different he was on point of everything he wrote. Many people saw his blog as an attack on EG (due to his wording) but the points he brought up on how EG handled the signing of Puma were all fair.
EG trying to sign Puma was fine. EG not contacting TSL was a naive move by them. It seems like people forget that a lot of the objection concerning Puma's signing originated from EG's approach. To the people saying EG not contacting TSL was fine, well it isn't. Them ignoring TSL started all this drama. The second point people bring up is how Puma wasn't under contract and blamed the coach. Puma being under contract had nothing to do with it, it is apparent that coach Lee was upset because they didn't contact him about the potential signing of Puma and didn't have an opportunity to make a counter offer. I don't care if Alex says that this is how business is done because in reality it isn't. Seeing all these fail sports comparisons just shows how people don't understand the situation and believe the way EG handled the Puma situation was fine.
People comparing the Puma situtation with a free agent in professional sports are clueless on why people objected to the EG approach. Here's the closest one I could think of: soccer youth academies of all the professional soccer clubs. All the youths in soccer academies are registered to a club (much like Puma) and have no contract with the club. At any given time a club could come in a sign a player for free due to his lack of contract. This is all fine, but the potential buyer has to address the club first and then the club talks to the player regarding his future. Once the player and parent club come to an agreement the player leaves and signs for the club that came knocking. If potential buyers don't adhere to this simple procedure there is tension between the parties involved. A simple example was Arsenal's acquisition of Fabregas when he was 16 which resulted in Barca stating that Arsenal stole Fabregas from them (much like coach Lee). Arsenal didn't approach Barca first and resulted in friction between the clubs for years. Fabregas wasn't under contract at the time but was registered with the team and Barca took care of him. To shorten the whole saga in the end Arsenal compensated Barca ( a few millions $) even though Fabregas wasn't under any contract. This exemplifies the importance of simple procedures when signing a player from another team even if not under contract.
In conclusion, there was nothing wrong with EG wanting to sign Puma but the way in which they handled the PR left much to be desired. Since Alex seems to be an expert in business he surely had no idea how to handle this new market called SCII. Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again. Good luck to all the parties involved, hopefully EG learns from this and move forward. Sorry for the long post, just adding some perspective. Yes, you can't freely talk to and sign free agents that have no formal affiliation with a team. That makes sense. The fact people can say that then be upset is just weird.
Yeah, it's not like he makes an elaborate comparison to a similar situation in professional football in the preceding paragraph. Did you just skip to the last paragraph without reading anything else or what?
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Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again.
Uh... yeah they certainly can, that's the main purpose of signing players to contracts in any sport in the first place, to make them part of your team.
The only person i see in this deal conducting business improperly is the coach of TSL, by not contracting his players then starting massive drama when his mistake causes him to lose a player.
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yea clide and sangho have heart for their teams
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On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote:
I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
I can't agree with you. Being part of a team is not just getting paid, it's wearing a name with pride and dedication along with your partners, and I doubt I'm just too naive to still think that in 2011. Unfortunately, I'll have to admit I think PuMa sold-out. He just won what, 10,000$USD? That's a lot of money, right? He could've brought that money back to his team, who obviously played a big part in him getting that opportunity in the first place, invest <somewhat> in the devellopment (whether by providing practice/mentoring to the team or straight up monetarily, like I believe many well-mannered players would do). With his big title win, TSL could've been the next big thing. We know how good Clide and SangHo are. This is just sad.
EG has sunk so low, I can barely see em.. I don't even feel like talking down on their player because most of them are of an above caliber. It just seems to me the mentality that comes with joining a team like EG is 'like wtv, this paycheck says I've got it made!'. Meanwhile, they are all M.I.A. in final brackets and such, even being almost swept out of their own 'EG Master's Cup'. I don't think Scoots has much of a vision for E-Sports growth anymore (can't deny he had it at some point because that's the main intention of 'starting' a team). He seems to ride the tempo where he believes his team dictates the direction E-sports are going and snatching other teams' top players means nothing else to me.
I will now bow out of my argument, understanding that money is the motive.
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PuMa doesn't have a contract. (personally I don't know how much he gets payed but its probably not much). I'm not sure why the team is surprised. Players are leaving TSL left and right and coaches and managers still trust them? LMAOOOOOOO
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Man I feel for TSL!
Losing so many players must be rough 
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Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
You'd probably rather go back to the days when a "big" tournament has a $200 prize fund.
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United States18814 Posts
On July 25 2011 05:56 Mazeltov wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:28 Talin wrote:On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote:
lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family. I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money. This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two. All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none. Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no. I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no. Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to. I like you, you managed to say what I was thinking very well. Agreed. I don't think that dumping tons of money into e-sports is a great idea just as dumping money on anything is bad practice. It's a short term gain sure but I don't like the prospects in the long term. Also since some people said boycotts or contacting sponsors is silly. I went ahead and contacted Kingston and Intel and received personalized responses from both saying that they have heard about the news and are investigating the matter. This isn't to say that the sponsors will pull from Team EG or even do anything but the fact that the sponsors are at least aware of what their teams are doing and may hold them accountable is refreshing.
I can only imagine how Intel dealt with this schmucks email.
"Some guy says a professional gaming team we sponsor stole a Korean player from his respective team."
"lolwut?"
"yeah he says we should pull our sponsorship"
"trollface.jpg"
GTFO with your self-righteous bullshit, I guarantee people laugh at you behind your back while you yell at waitresses for messing up your order.
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This interview was quite enlightening into Lee's and TSL's view of how things went down. I think Mr. Lee will have been hurt by this lesson, but he will gain in the end because it will make him aware of two important things: a) finding a way to reach Western sponsors and events is going to be the only way to grow a team in the near future because of the difficulty of getting code S status. b) taking more serious the business side of the team, rather than just creating a good playing environment and finding good players.
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There needs to be a official Global Starcraft League that keeps players and team in check if E-Sports is ever going to truly make a profit.
Proper regulation leads to exponential growth.
Unfortunately the SC2 scene doesn't have enough money to create such a thing. We don't need sponsors. We need investors.
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On July 25 2011 07:28 discw wrote:Show nested quote + Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again. Uh... yeah they certainly can, that's the main purpose of signing players to contracts in any sport in the first place, to make them part of your team. The only person i see in this deal conducting business improperly is the coach of TSL, by not contracting his players then starting massive drama when his mistake causes him to lose a player.
I agree with this.
It's unfortunate to have a player "stolen" from underneath you, but that's the exact reason you get players locked down in contracts.
It's also to keep the teams honest. I mean, sure, EG could (should) have contacted coach Lee, but without a contract, i feel like they weren't required to. I feel like part of it's poor planning on Coach Lee's part. I understand, money is tight. you might not be able to pay out a guaranteed amount of money every month, especially with slipping success, and sponsors pulling funding.
But that's exactly the time you need to implement stricter regiments of training etc, to get those tourney results and get that sponsorship money. Sure, nobody likes to buckle down and be forced to work harder, but sometimes it's required.
TSL can't stay running as the "lax team in Korea." Without results, you just can't stay alive.
Edit:
On July 25 2011 11:42 Remaker12 wrote:
There needs to be a official Global Starcraft League that keeps players and team in check if E-Sports is ever going to truly make a profit.
Proper regulation leads to exponential growth.
Unfortunately the SC2 scene doesn't have enough money to create such a thing. We don't need sponsors. We need investors.
I'll agree to this. We need to infuse some kind of money in a circular fashion. We can't keep having sponsors and just giving away all their money in the tournaments. We've got to keep a little off to the side to continue to reinvest into later tourneys, and get the ball really rolling from there. Yes, sponsorships should help, but we need to figure out how to actually derive money from our audience, through commercials or what have you, in order to keep this a self-perpetuating system
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After listening to Alex Garfield talk on weapon of choice i felt like vomiting. I hate it when people use technicalities and "its just business" to torch anything that isnt in line with those rules in mind. We live in a world of both business and friendships. And a team built on friendships and loyalty is just as real as a team built on money.
I dont have the solution for what is right or wrong or who is right or wrong. But i miss the days when the greatest part of Starcraft was the game itself. Not the drama, not the hype, not the male soap opera that this has become. Nobody cares my tiny opinion, im nothing. But i used to come to this site because it gave me a break from nonsense and bullshit and i could come here and watch players play BW amazingly and it was worth it even at 5 am with the non english stream lagging like ass and still on the edge of my seat just to see the game itself unfold. Now its just a cesspool of drama and bullshit that doesnt have anything to do with the actual game itself. Maybe people love that. Maybe people think thats "great for esports". But i miss the good old days when the games themselves were all that was important. This whole new nerd soap opera drama garbage is really wrecking it for me.
The "international community" needs to stop patting itself on the back for being loyal to esports for a grand total of 1 year amidst the hype and all the easy money to be made. Ill be interested in seeing how much MLG, IGN, etc care about SC once there isnt any money to be made off of it anymore, be it in a year, 2 years, or 10.
I just came here to see players play well. This soap opera is tiring.
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EPT
