|
On July 22 2011 19:23 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:21 poorbeggarman wrote:On July 22 2011 18:27 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 18:25 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 18:14 Amui wrote:On July 22 2011 17:50 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 17:44 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 17:38 stangstang wrote:
just like the last thing they discussed. Alex was talking about responsible journalism as a whole. he kept saying he was NOT attacking milkis. then milkis suddenly gets all offended like Alex attacked him personally. Once again, there is no reason to even make that comment in front of Milkis if he wasn't meaning to attack Milkis. Also consider this. Milkis's translations are what started this PR mess. It doesn't take a genius to understand that the comment was aimed at him, even if Alex vehemently denies doing so. If i asked you why you were so invested in defending milkis would you give me a honest answer? I dont think its because Alex is being a dick. Ill admit im a fan of EGs, but I dont have anything against milkis. Infact, i know whats its like to be in his situation, where his opponent is one that is articulate and well spoken and you knew that you werent on his level. Its a hard spot to be in and he did it bravely. But his translation did blow this whole thing out of proportion. If the only thing left is Alex being a dick to milkis as your problem with EG, explain to me why milkis doesnt deserve some of the blame? He started a thread that had a 200 page flame war over nothing. And IMO, he was so emotionally charged he was fueling the flame war with his occasionally ambiguous posts. Milkis is a translator, and a good one at that, however he does not speak publicly for a living. It seemed to me like Alex was shooting down valid points before they could materialize simply by interrupting eloquently. Yes it is damage control, but in my eyes(or ears as it would happen), it made Alex seem like an ass. His tone was carefully controlled, but the direction he sent the conversation seemed condescending to me, almost as if he didn't want to even deal with Milkis. The attack on translation seems misguided to me. The wording on the translation may seem a bit exaggerated, but keep in mind where the translation comes from. It comes from a source in Korea, which most likely has bias in it already, especially since the reaction in Korea from what I've heard is overwhelmingly negative. Is the translator supposed to attempt to take the bias out? Then is it really translating if you aren't conveying the original meaning of the article? That seemed to almost be a personal attack, and while protecting his own organization is understandable, putting the blame on a translator for conveying the bias in an article is uncalled for. If I asked you nicely to read the discussion I had with backside would be you be so kind to do so? I covered why I felt Alex was interrupting him. Why it wasnt his translation, but his own personal reaction after he posted the translation that I had an issue with. I g2g but I dont disagree with anything you said. hes not a public speaker. Well gn to you. But in closing Dj Wheat chose to be incredibly biased on a EG backed show, so even if Alex felt Milkis was wrong, there's no reason for Wheat (the moderator) to interrupt Milkis like that. But well, just because the show is "EG backed", doesn't mean DjWheat was necessarily biased towards EG. Those are some serious allegations about his credibility. Can you provide citations from the WoC vod that validate your argument? Blind hate is quite unwarranted. WoC has been around much longer then SC2 and has nothing to do with EG for what it's worth.
Well, people are alleging that since ITG, another of Wheat's shows is "backed by EG", that he had an incentive to be biased towards AG's opinions, as opposed to Milkis'.
|
On July 22 2011 19:28 SkelA wrote:
I dont follow the SC2 closely but why is 300++ pages of discussion because some player switched teams?
Just an attempt at some old fashioned player poaching.
|
I don't know what to say about this Puma deal but I hope Koreans have learnt a valuable lesson about contracting players. TSL have invested alot of time in making him into the player he is so I think they deserve better than this but they need to learn to contract players.
I don't know what the deal is with EG but they don't seem to be able to get anything right. Underperforming players, everything the management touches seems to get infected with the EG curse. The whole Incontrol - SOTG - Onemoregametv mess was such a farse, I can't help but feeling that EG's management are a bunch of professional bullshitters who try to play "important businessmen" and basically dictate everything for their players. Is that really what we want ESPORTS to become? I know I don't.
I'm starting to see more and more drawbacks of growing ESPORTS , hopefully it can be done with teams who manage their players better than EG do.
|
Vatican City State334 Posts
I can't get over the hypocrisy of Alex Garfield wanting milkis to approach him for a formal statement before posting on a forum or twitter, yet Alex Garfield did not formally approaching TSL before attempting to tap their player. EG wants an amoral free market where anything goes as long as its legal but can't deal with the idea of free speech where people can talk about whatever they want, whenever.
|
On July 22 2011 19:30 Full.tilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:28 SkelA wrote:
I dont follow the SC2 closely but why is 300++ pages of discussion because some player switched teams? Just some old fashioned player poaching.
A western team hired a fairly good Korean player who wasn't being payed and didn't have a contract but there was a miscommunication along the way between Puma (The player) and his coach that caused the coach to think that EG had signed Puma without ever talking to him (EG didn't, Puma stil isn't signed on with EG) but the TL community with it's love for drama and hate for EG has decided that this is the worst thing ever, EG disrespected all of Korea and they are single handidly killing ESPORTS.
|
On July 22 2011 19:28 Twoinches wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:24 Talin wrote:On July 22 2011 19:19 stangstang wrote:On July 22 2011 19:14 Baarn wrote:On July 22 2011 18:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 22 2011 18:39 Defacer wrote:
Alex is no MLG Lee, MLG Sundance or FXOBoss, that's for sure.
Dude needs more PR grooming if he's going to be running damage control for major team. Sometimes it's better to be short and apologetic than try to defend and over-explain every decision you make.
ultimately its going to boil down to cash. mentioned in the interview was the weak nature of the SC2 scene in Korea. as long as Korean teams have no money to pay their players while EU and NA teams do they'll continue to walk all over the "culture" standard in Korea with impunity. Sometimes the grass isn't always greener. It's not so much about money as it is player ambition/goals. I don't see someone like Nestea leaving IM for a foreign team that isn't based in Korea. He would if Nestea wasn't in code A or S. Sometimes it isn't about the money. but most of the time it is. Sangho and Clide are commendable for sticking with TSL after being offered deals with foreign teams, Puma wants to make money. He wants to play, not just for a meal and a place to live but for actual money. And yet people are shitting on him for not being "Loyal" and shitting on EG for providing him with this opportunity. That's just short term thinking IMO. Six months to a year from now, Clide and SangHo will be the better players because they were consistently training and competing with the best. So next time Clide or SangHo (or another Korean pro) will fly in to a foreign event and win all the money, not Puma who's been messing around in the west. And sure Puma will be on a salary for a year, but what happens in two years? What happens if EG decides they don't give a fuck about SC2 any more after that because they can no longer make an impact and their players can't win big events? Skill level is the most important capital resource a player can have, and building it up the highest priority. Clide and SangHo didn't only stay for loyalty, I'm pretty sure they stayed because they knew it's best for them in the long run. Whats wrong with taking chances in life? and what makes you think puma will do great in korea? he won 1 foreign tournament, thats it.
By all accounts Puma is of a sufficient skill level to play in Code S right now, and not just because of NASL. He's one of the higher tier BW players among those who switched, and is quite talented in his own right.
I don't have a problem with taking chances, but there are really no chances to take in this deal. Whatever happens, he can't maintain his skill level let alone keep improving at the rate that players playing in Korea will. It's a one way ticket out of ever being able to compete at the top level - in return for a salary for a year or two, but I wouldn't say it's worth it. Besides, TSL would probably have offered him salary sooner or later as well.
|
On July 22 2011 19:34 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:28 Twoinches wrote:On July 22 2011 19:24 Talin wrote:On July 22 2011 19:19 stangstang wrote:On July 22 2011 19:14 Baarn wrote:On July 22 2011 18:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 22 2011 18:39 Defacer wrote:
Alex is no MLG Lee, MLG Sundance or FXOBoss, that's for sure.
Dude needs more PR grooming if he's going to be running damage control for major team. Sometimes it's better to be short and apologetic than try to defend and over-explain every decision you make.
ultimately its going to boil down to cash. mentioned in the interview was the weak nature of the SC2 scene in Korea. as long as Korean teams have no money to pay their players while EU and NA teams do they'll continue to walk all over the "culture" standard in Korea with impunity. Sometimes the grass isn't always greener. It's not so much about money as it is player ambition/goals. I don't see someone like Nestea leaving IM for a foreign team that isn't based in Korea. He would if Nestea wasn't in code A or S. Sometimes it isn't about the money. but most of the time it is. Sangho and Clide are commendable for sticking with TSL after being offered deals with foreign teams, Puma wants to make money. He wants to play, not just for a meal and a place to live but for actual money. And yet people are shitting on him for not being "Loyal" and shitting on EG for providing him with this opportunity. That's just short term thinking IMO. Six months to a year from now, Clide and SangHo will be the better players because they were consistently training and competing with the best. So next time Clide or SangHo (or another Korean pro) will fly in to a foreign event and win all the money, not Puma who's been messing around in the west. And sure Puma will be on a salary for a year, but what happens in two years? What happens if EG decides they don't give a fuck about SC2 any more after that because they can no longer make an impact and their players can't win big events? Skill level is the most important capital resource a player can have, and building it up the highest priority. Clide and SangHo didn't only stay for loyalty, I'm pretty sure they stayed because they knew it's best for them in the long run. Whats wrong with taking chances in life? and what makes you think puma will do great in korea? he won 1 foreign tournament, thats it. By all accounts Puma is of a sufficient skill level to play in Code S right now, and not just because of NASL. He's one of the higher tier BW players among those who switched, and is quite talented in his own right. I don't have a problem with taking chances, but there are really no chances to take in this deal. Whatever happens, he can't maintain his skill level let alone keep improving at the rate that players playing in Korea will. It's a one way ticket out of ever being able to compete at the top level - in return for a salary for a year or two, but I wouldn't say it's worth it. Besides, TSL would probably offer him salary sooner or later as well.
Puma thought it was a good deal, his is the only opinion that matters here.
|
On July 22 2011 19:35 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:34 Talin wrote:On July 22 2011 19:28 Twoinches wrote:On July 22 2011 19:24 Talin wrote:On July 22 2011 19:19 stangstang wrote:On July 22 2011 19:14 Baarn wrote:On July 22 2011 18:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 22 2011 18:39 Defacer wrote:
Alex is no MLG Lee, MLG Sundance or FXOBoss, that's for sure.
Dude needs more PR grooming if he's going to be running damage control for major team. Sometimes it's better to be short and apologetic than try to defend and over-explain every decision you make.
ultimately its going to boil down to cash. mentioned in the interview was the weak nature of the SC2 scene in Korea. as long as Korean teams have no money to pay their players while EU and NA teams do they'll continue to walk all over the "culture" standard in Korea with impunity. Sometimes the grass isn't always greener. It's not so much about money as it is player ambition/goals. I don't see someone like Nestea leaving IM for a foreign team that isn't based in Korea. He would if Nestea wasn't in code A or S. Sometimes it isn't about the money. but most of the time it is. Sangho and Clide are commendable for sticking with TSL after being offered deals with foreign teams, Puma wants to make money. He wants to play, not just for a meal and a place to live but for actual money. And yet people are shitting on him for not being "Loyal" and shitting on EG for providing him with this opportunity. That's just short term thinking IMO. Six months to a year from now, Clide and SangHo will be the better players because they were consistently training and competing with the best. So next time Clide or SangHo (or another Korean pro) will fly in to a foreign event and win all the money, not Puma who's been messing around in the west. And sure Puma will be on a salary for a year, but what happens in two years? What happens if EG decides they don't give a fuck about SC2 any more after that because they can no longer make an impact and their players can't win big events? Skill level is the most important capital resource a player can have, and building it up the highest priority. Clide and SangHo didn't only stay for loyalty, I'm pretty sure they stayed because they knew it's best for them in the long run. Whats wrong with taking chances in life? and what makes you think puma will do great in korea? he won 1 foreign tournament, thats it. By all accounts Puma is of a sufficient skill level to play in Code S right now, and not just because of NASL. He's one of the higher tier BW players among those who switched, and is quite talented in his own right. I don't have a problem with taking chances, but there are really no chances to take in this deal. Whatever happens, he can't maintain his skill level let alone keep improving at the rate that players playing in Korea will. It's a one way ticket out of ever being able to compete at the top level - in return for a salary for a year or two, but I wouldn't say it's worth it. Besides, TSL would probably offer him salary sooner or later as well. Puma thought it was a good deal, his is the only opinion that matters here.
Maybe it's the only opinion that matters, but that doesn't make it the right one, nor does it mean that other opinions shouldn't be brought up.
So what's your point?
|
On July 22 2011 19:33 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:30 Full.tilt wrote:On July 22 2011 19:28 SkelA wrote:
I dont follow the SC2 closely but why is 300++ pages of discussion because some player switched teams? Just some old fashioned player poaching. A western team hired a fairly good Korean player who wasn't being payed and didn't have a contract but there was a miscommunication along the way between Puma (The player) and his coach that caused the coach to think that EG had signed Puma without ever talking to him (EG didn't, Puma stil isn't signed on with EG) but the TL community with it's love for drama and hate for EG has decided that this is the worst thing ever, EG disrespected all of Korea and they are single handidly killing ESPORTS.
This is why I answered the question simply. To avoid the histrionics.
|
On July 22 2011 19:33 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:30 Full.tilt wrote:On July 22 2011 19:28 SkelA wrote:
I dont follow the SC2 closely but why is 300++ pages of discussion because some player switched teams? Just some old fashioned player poaching. A western team hired a fairly good Korean player who wasn't being payed and didn't have a contract but there was a miscommunication along the way between Puma (The player) and his coach that caused the coach to think that EG had signed Puma without ever talking to him (EG didn't, Puma stil isn't signed on with EG) but the TL community with it's love for drama and hate for EG has decided that this is the worst thing ever, EG disrespected all of Korea and they are single handidly killing ESPORTS.
So let me see Puma was in TSL and he was clearly underrated there and they didnt offer him a contract and EG offers him more than TSL so he left for EG.
He didnt have a contract so there is nothing wrong here. So whats the problem and all that drama because a player wants more money?
|
On July 22 2011 17:33 stangstang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 17:29 HyperLimen wrote:On July 22 2011 17:27 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 17:25 stangstang wrote:On July 22 2011 17:22 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 17:20 Angelbelow wrote:
posters are actually serious about boycotting the sponsors? lol.. how can they still be that butthurt.
I listened to half of weapon of choice then I had to go. Did I miss something between now and then? Didn't most of these issues get cleared up? EG hasn't even signed Puma yet. Puma is not a free agent after he left TSL.
Whats everyone worked up about now? The owner of EG was a dick a blatantly disrespected Milkis. how? please explain how he disrespected milkis. If you watched Weapon of Choice today, Alex continuously interrupted and talked over Milkis whenever he was trying to make a point. Then at the end he attacked Milkis for "false journalism" when all he did was translate an article on play XP. Respect starts with giving the other party the time of day to make a point. Even if Alex was 100% correct, it is still disrespectful for him to do what he did. Respect starts with contacting the management of another team before you try to offer one of their players anything as well. Even if the player isn't under contract by the management? Did TSL own puma then? so before you are allowed to talk to puma, you gotta talk to TSL? Even though puma wasn't under contract by TSL.
Well, Puma was only an official team member living in the team's house receiving free food and stipends and wearing their jersey with their sponsors on it at tournaments. I'm sure that not a single person on earth thought that he was a member of TSL or anything, though.
If you need a piece of paper with ink on it to prevent you from acting like a scumbag, then chances are that you are a scumbag completely lacking in character altogether to begin with.
I find it both hilarious and sad that everyone who replies to this thread with any comment along the lines of 'well there was no official contract' is from the west. Comments like that perfectly illustrate the complete disconnect between western society and moral standards when money is involved.
So far in the life of SC2 EG has destroyed SoTG, admittedly harvested popular players from other teams via buyouts, secured a monopolization on various shows that pertain to the scene, and the list goes on and on. Is there a single other team in SC2 that has had nearly as much drama surrounding it ? I really do not think that there is if you exclude TSL and Pumagate.
Would any other team be afforded a 2 hour platform to disseminate their propaganda on after completely screwing over a Korean team? I sincerely doubt it.
No disrespect to Milkis (he is an amazing person who does more for the community than I ever will) but I really wish that someone was on WoC that could have verbally eviscerated the scumbag EG representative.
It's like I'm witnessing the competitive scene of SC2 and the media outlets surrounding it become infected by the same virus.
But then again, who cares ? Any publicity is good publicity, after all. Make that money!
I just hope that Team Liquid never does anything remotely similar to what EG has done so that I can continue to support and cheer for their members without feeling like a hypocrite.
|
On July 22 2011 19:32 AnalThermometer wrote:
I can't get over the hypocrisy of Alex Garfield wanting milkis to approach him for a formal statement before posting on a forum or twitter, yet Alex Garfield did not formally approaching TSL before attempting to tap their player. EG wants an amoral free market where anything goes as long as its legal but can't deal with the idea of free speech where people can talk about whatever they want, whenever.
Can we stop talking about Milkis THE TRANSLATOR. if in fact that is all he is. then he shouldnt have been on the show. if his only talent is he can read korean then why have him on a show for a Ethics discussion? When they did give him chances to talk his input was "I dont follow anything outside korea and you dont understand" so he brought literally nothing to the table to discuss. Being short notice I kind of understand why he was brought on, but again all he does is read korean and rewrite it in english. gg
|
On July 22 2011 19:37 Full.tilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 19:30 Full.tilt wrote:On July 22 2011 19:28 SkelA wrote:
I dont follow the SC2 closely but why is 300++ pages of discussion because some player switched teams? Just some old fashioned player poaching. A western team hired a fairly good Korean player who wasn't being payed and didn't have a contract but there was a miscommunication along the way between Puma (The player) and his coach that caused the coach to think that EG had signed Puma without ever talking to him (EG didn't, Puma stil isn't signed on with EG) but the TL community with it's love for drama and hate for EG has decided that this is the worst thing ever, EG disrespected all of Korea and they are single handidly killing ESPORTS. This is why I answered the question simply. To avoid the histrionics.
Poaching is a loaded term here and any description of this whole thing needs ESPORTS in it as it's about the only way to sum up the TL drama llamas reactions everything these days.
|
I still dont understand why EG are being painted as the villains here. Coach Lee is the person actually doing all the disrespecting here by creating this whole damn shitstorm. If Puma has said "Leave it to me EG" and they respect that, the weight is on TSL's shoulders to make the next step in contact. As far as EG is concerned, their opening job is done at that point, having simply spoken to a player to gauge interest (which happens all the time). TSL instead kicked up a shitstorm and somehow seem to have got away as the good guys.
|
Korea (South)17174 Posts
Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
|
On July 22 2011 19:39 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 19:30 Full.tilt wrote:On July 22 2011 19:28 SkelA wrote:
I dont follow the SC2 closely but why is 300++ pages of discussion because some player switched teams? Just some old fashioned player poaching. A western team hired a fairly good Korean player who wasn't being payed and didn't have a contract but there was a miscommunication along the way between Puma (The player) and his coach that caused the coach to think that EG had signed Puma without ever talking to him (EG didn't, Puma stil isn't signed on with EG) but the TL community with it's love for drama and hate for EG has decided that this is the worst thing ever, EG disrespected all of Korea and they are single handidly killing ESPORTS. So let me see Puma was in TSL and he was clearly underrated there and they didnt offer him a contract and EG offers him more than TSL so he left for EG. He didnt have a contract so there is nothing wrong here. So whats the problem and all that drama because a player wants more money?
Because this is TL and anything is good cause for drama.
|
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote:
Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
As they say what comes around goes around.
|
Frankly, the way coach lee handled it could not have done more damage to Puma.
|
On July 22 2011 19:33 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:30 Full.tilt wrote:On July 22 2011 19:28 SkelA wrote:
I dont follow the SC2 closely but why is 300++ pages of discussion because some player switched teams? Just some old fashioned player poaching. A western team hired a fairly good Korean player who wasn't being payed and didn't have a contract but there was a miscommunication along the way between Puma (The player) and his coach that caused the coach to think that EG had signed Puma without ever talking to him (EG didn't, Puma stil isn't signed on with EG) but the TL community with it's love for drama and hate for EG has decided that this is the worst thing ever, EG disrespected all of Korea and they are single handidly killing ESPORTS.
I love all of these stunningly ignorant 'The community hates EG' whines; which team other than possibly Liquid is going to skate when there's any kind of uproar created in the high level Korean scene in this Korean crazy community? Plus I'm fairly certain that Liquid would immediately defuse the situation rather than treat a PR incident like a court case.
|
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote:
Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I always had the impression that they left on their own TT
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
