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On July 22 2011 16:51 HyperLimen wrote:
They showed absolutely no respect to TSL and approaching a player with promises of how you will support them and fly them around the world etc. is simultaneously predatory and manipulative.
Talking to a player who is looking for a new team and making what you consider is a fair offer is neither predatory or manipulative.
How the hell do you think teams recruit players?
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On July 22 2011 16:47 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 16:22 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net Yeah, I have to disagree. I still do not think that EG did anything wrong and they are being vilified for normal business practices and respecting certain wishes which conflicted with others. PLease do not boycott these for any reason. The sponsors can retaliate if they see fit. Alex Garfield is the owner and executive director of EG. After how much disrespect he showed Milkis on Weapon of Choice, I have every right to boycott his team's sponsors. I disagree that he disrespected him. He was clear, concise, and even apologetic at times. Milkis seemed more fiery and passionate and seemed to act disrespected, but Alex even prefaced the framing of questions and opinions as to what he meant by them. It is fine to think that and maybe Milkis was disrespected, but I never once thought that Alex was trying to at all.
Considering how articulate Alex is, it's not uncanny that you may get that impression. After all, as the executive director its his job to handle all the PR. In the end, no amount of eloquence can mask the fact that consistently interrupted and talked over Milkis for the majority of the debate. If he wasn't trying to be disrespectful, then there's no reason for him to do that. He also accused Milkis of false journalism, when all Milkis did was translate an article. There's absolutely no reason for him to call him out like that.
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On July 22 2011 16:53 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:47 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 16:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 16:22 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net Yeah, I have to disagree. I still do not think that EG did anything wrong and they are being vilified for normal business practices and respecting certain wishes which conflicted with others. PLease do not boycott these for any reason. The sponsors can retaliate if they see fit. Alex Garfield is the owner and executive director of EG. After how much disrespect he showed Milkis on Weapon of Choice, I have every right to boycott his team's sponsors. I disagree that he disrespected him. He was clear, concise, and even apologetic at times. Milkis seemed more fiery and passionate and seemed to act disrespected, but Alex even prefaced the framing of questions and opinions as to what he meant by them. It is fine to think that and maybe Milkis was disrespected, but I never once thought that Alex was trying to at all. Yup..."I don't mean to be accusatory" --> accusation. He was running his mouth around in circles with no one to stop him at all. Whether or not he was *trying* to do that is irrelevant, to most he came off sounding like a total douche.
That may be to you, but as I heard it I do not agree. He did not tell Milkis what to say, took as much accountability for not contacting him, and was bringing up the hypothetical question on how new media journalism should or should not work. He was posing an argument for awareness, not saying that everyone has to confirm to a certain idea.
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On July 22 2011 16:52 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:46 HyperLimen wrote:
Did YOU actually listen to the interview ? They approached players with offers of how they would support them etc. That is completely different from harmlessly handing someone a business card.
Since when is the grand finals of a months long tournament a business conference? What a thoroughly terrible analogy.
KESPA is yet another terrible example to bring up because SC2 is not under a regulated organization.
Why did I even bother replying to your idiocy ? rofl. No, EG (Alex) was there looking for players, something that is completely ok. The reason he made contact with Sen is because Sen's contract ends soon, and if he simply asked do you have any interest in joining EG, that is also ok. Alex said he was handing out business cards then handed one out to Puma. Puma showed interest and asked about details. Alex told him the details and Puma and Alex decided it would be better to let Puma explain it to coach Lee. The miscommunication occurs somewhere between coach Lee and Puma. And the reason he pointed out KESPA is because you seem to think that in korea deals are made with trust not contracts.
That is not how Alex described his initial contact with Puma on WoC.
I completely understand the necessity of contracts. I live in the west where a person's honor and word are completely worthless. My point is that TSL operated on an honor based system without any problems whatsoever until a foreign organization interfered and completely blew everything out of the water.
Blaming TSL for not contracting their players is the same exact thing as saying it is the victims fault if they forget to lock their car and it gets broken into or a woman gets raped for dressing too provocatively. I guess TSL 'had it coming' when they let a player come to the US to play in a tournament unaccompanied by management like that.
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On July 22 2011 16:57 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:47 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 16:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 16:22 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net Yeah, I have to disagree. I still do not think that EG did anything wrong and they are being vilified for normal business practices and respecting certain wishes which conflicted with others. PLease do not boycott these for any reason. The sponsors can retaliate if they see fit. Alex Garfield is the owner and executive director of EG. After how much disrespect he showed Milkis on Weapon of Choice, I have every right to boycott his team's sponsors. I disagree that he disrespected him. He was clear, concise, and even apologetic at times. Milkis seemed more fiery and passionate and seemed to act disrespected, but Alex even prefaced the framing of questions and opinions as to what he meant by them. It is fine to think that and maybe Milkis was disrespected, but I never once thought that Alex was trying to at all. Considering how articulate Alex is, it's not uncanny that you may get that impression. After all, as the executive director its his job to handle all the PR. In the end, no amount of eloquence can mask the fact that consistently interrupted and talked over Milkis for the majority of the debate. If he wasn't trying to be disrespectful, then there's no reason for him to do that. He also accused Milkis of false journalism, when all Milkis did was translate an article. There's absolutely no reason for him to call him out like that.
He only really interrupted Milkis to clarify a point and to try to explain something. Also, even when he did he gave him a chance to retort.
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rofl, boycotting EG's sponsors? You guys are hilarious. It was a miscommunication between Puma and Coach Lee, now get over it and buy some idrA t-shirts.
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On July 22 2011 16:59 ReaperX wrote:
rofl, boycotting EG's sponsors? You guys are hilarious. It was a miscommunication between Puma and Coach Lee, now get over it and buy some idrA t-shirts.
Haha. I think this is a good point. The argument is over and I do not think it is worth even looking at this thread anymore. Go Idra!
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On July 22 2011 16:57 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:53 Daniel C wrote:On July 22 2011 16:47 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 16:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 16:22 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net Yeah, I have to disagree. I still do not think that EG did anything wrong and they are being vilified for normal business practices and respecting certain wishes which conflicted with others. PLease do not boycott these for any reason. The sponsors can retaliate if they see fit. Alex Garfield is the owner and executive director of EG. After how much disrespect he showed Milkis on Weapon of Choice, I have every right to boycott his team's sponsors. I disagree that he disrespected him. He was clear, concise, and even apologetic at times. Milkis seemed more fiery and passionate and seemed to act disrespected, but Alex even prefaced the framing of questions and opinions as to what he meant by them. It is fine to think that and maybe Milkis was disrespected, but I never once thought that Alex was trying to at all. Yup..."I don't mean to be accusatory" --> accusation. He was running his mouth around in circles with no one to stop him at all. Whether or not he was *trying* to do that is irrelevant, to most he came off sounding like a total douche. That may be to you, but as I heard it I do not agree. He did not tell Milkis what to say, took as much accountability for not contacting him, and was bringing up the hypothetical question on how new media journalism should or should not work. He was posing an argument for awareness, not saying that everyone has to confirm to a certain idea.
Respect starts with allowing the other side the time of day to tell their side of the story. Even if Alex was 100% right and Milkis was spouting bs, what Alex did by interrupting and talking over him is still considered disrespectful.
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On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net
You can also contact the companies and explain your views of the situation. It may not get anything done/accomplished but hey freedom of speech.
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On July 22 2011 16:57 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:47 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 16:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 16:22 TheAmazombie wrote:On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net Yeah, I have to disagree. I still do not think that EG did anything wrong and they are being vilified for normal business practices and respecting certain wishes which conflicted with others. PLease do not boycott these for any reason. The sponsors can retaliate if they see fit. Alex Garfield is the owner and executive director of EG. After how much disrespect he showed Milkis on Weapon of Choice, I have every right to boycott his team's sponsors. I disagree that he disrespected him. He was clear, concise, and even apologetic at times. Milkis seemed more fiery and passionate and seemed to act disrespected, but Alex even prefaced the framing of questions and opinions as to what he meant by them. It is fine to think that and maybe Milkis was disrespected, but I never once thought that Alex was trying to at all. Considering how articulate Alex is, it's not uncanny that you may get that impression. After all, as the executive director its his job to handle all the PR. In the end, no amount of eloquence can mask the fact that consistently interrupted and talked over Milkis for the majority of the debate. If he wasn't trying to be disrespectful, then there's no reason for him to do that. He also accused Milkis of false journalism, when all Milkis did was translate an article. There's absolutely no reason for him to call him out like that.
Milkis kept saying Korea, korea. korea. alex garfield saying "this is how the world works" milkis saying "but but but.....this isn't how korea works"
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On July 22 2011 16:58 HyperLimen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:52 MrDudeMan wrote:On July 22 2011 16:46 HyperLimen wrote:
Did YOU actually listen to the interview ? They approached players with offers of how they would support them etc. That is completely different from harmlessly handing someone a business card.
Since when is the grand finals of a months long tournament a business conference? What a thoroughly terrible analogy.
KESPA is yet another terrible example to bring up because SC2 is not under a regulated organization.
Why did I even bother replying to your idiocy ? rofl. No, EG (Alex) was there looking for players, something that is completely ok. The reason he made contact with Sen is because Sen's contract ends soon, and if he simply asked do you have any interest in joining EG, that is also ok. Alex said he was handing out business cards then handed one out to Puma. Puma showed interest and asked about details. Alex told him the details and Puma and Alex decided it would be better to let Puma explain it to coach Lee. The miscommunication occurs somewhere between coach Lee and Puma. And the reason he pointed out KESPA is because you seem to think that in korea deals are made with trust not contracts. That is not how Alex described his initial contact with Puma on WoC. I completely understand the necessity of contracts. I live in the west where a person's honor and word are completely worthless. My point is that TSL operated on an honor based system without any problems whatsoever until a foreign organization interfered and completely blew everything out of the water. Blaming TSL for not contracting their players is the same exact thing as saying it is the victims fault if they forget to lock their car and it gets broken into or a woman gets raped for dressing too provocatively. I guess TSL 'had it coming' when they let a player come to the US to play in a tournament unaccompanied by management like that.
....You keep getting worse, what the hell.
First you compare EGs hiring a player to them dumping toxic waste and killing people and now you're fucking comparing it to raping someone for dressing provocatively?
I wish I had a goddamn report button.
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On July 22 2011 17:01 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:59 ReaperX wrote:
rofl, boycotting EG's sponsors? You guys are hilarious. It was a miscommunication between Puma and Coach Lee, now get over it and buy some idrA t-shirts. Haha. I think this is a good point. The argument is over and I do not think it is worth even looking at this thread anymore. Go Idra!
I'm talking to someone using about this on Vent right now 
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Money dominating again :o
300+ about this is just a bit off
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On July 22 2011 17:01 Mazeltov wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net You can also contact the companies and explain your views of the situation. It may not get anything done/accomplished but hey freedom of speech.
Yes!
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On July 22 2011 17:01 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:58 HyperLimen wrote:On July 22 2011 16:52 MrDudeMan wrote:On July 22 2011 16:46 HyperLimen wrote:
Did YOU actually listen to the interview ? They approached players with offers of how they would support them etc. That is completely different from harmlessly handing someone a business card.
Since when is the grand finals of a months long tournament a business conference? What a thoroughly terrible analogy.
KESPA is yet another terrible example to bring up because SC2 is not under a regulated organization.
Why did I even bother replying to your idiocy ? rofl. No, EG (Alex) was there looking for players, something that is completely ok. The reason he made contact with Sen is because Sen's contract ends soon, and if he simply asked do you have any interest in joining EG, that is also ok. Alex said he was handing out business cards then handed one out to Puma. Puma showed interest and asked about details. Alex told him the details and Puma and Alex decided it would be better to let Puma explain it to coach Lee. The miscommunication occurs somewhere between coach Lee and Puma. And the reason he pointed out KESPA is because you seem to think that in korea deals are made with trust not contracts. That is not how Alex described his initial contact with Puma on WoC. I completely understand the necessity of contracts. I live in the west where a person's honor and word are completely worthless. My point is that TSL operated on an honor based system without any problems whatsoever until a foreign organization interfered and completely blew everything out of the water. Blaming TSL for not contracting their players is the same exact thing as saying it is the victims fault if they forget to lock their car and it gets broken into or a woman gets raped for dressing too provocatively. I guess TSL 'had it coming' when they let a player come to the US to play in a tournament unaccompanied by management like that. ....You keep getting worse, what the hell. First you compare EGs hiring a player to them dumping toxic waste and killing people and now you're fucking comparing it to raping someone for dressing provocatively? I wish I had a goddamn report button.
Dumping toxic waste and killing people ? What in the world are you even talking about ?
I was using a literary device known as hyperbole to expose the faulty logic that constitutes the foundation of your whole argument.
'herp derp no contrakt they got what dey deserve'
I never even heard anything about Sen being approached, but it honestly does not surprise me. The 'miscommunication', as you term it, should have never even had the opportunity to have taken place because if EG had any respect whatsoever they would have contacted TSL's management in regards to Puma before talking about any specifics or promises directly with the player.
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EG may not have done everything right in this situation, but atleast they didn't 'sponsor' PuMa to go under their tag for foreign events...
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So having slept on it I had a thought about the whole situation, and it seems to me to be a bit interesting. By common assent on all sides, the Korean StarCraft II scene is not currently viable from a business perspective, at least for smaller/less successful teams. In opposition to this the 'Western' StarCraft II scene is growing, and appears to be able to support a number of large teams who are sufficiently remunerated that they are looking to expand.
Now, in normal terms one would expect the talent to be where the money was, and AG is absolutely right in stating that in terms of international sporting markets this is exactly what would happen. Why is it that despite having less money, the Korean scene is so much more competitive, and produces so many better players: again, by comment assent.
So you have this peculiar imbalance where the greatest 'talents' are in one place, while the appropriate financial rewards for their skill level are in another. In such a circumstance, if StarCraft II is global, then something has to break, right? Ignoring the morality aspects for the moment, it would in fact be insane if this talent pool - available relatively cheaply - was not sought after by 'Western' teams, at least on the face of it.
So there are at least two groups - it seems to me - who benefit from such a conclusion, namely the international fans and the players. The international fans because the more skilled the talent pool going into a competition, the better games will result. The players because the more open the international market is, the better deals they can get for themselves.
But clearly there are losers in this situation, and to my mind these are the Korean fans, and the Korean scene. As to the Korean fans I think it is clear to all parties that they are less ready as a group to follow international events than vice versa, perhaps simply from a position of habit; to whit it is so different from the Broodwar scene where it was simply impossible to put on an event outside Korea that showcased a similar level of skill and recieved the same amount of fan attention; Broodwar was simply never that big in the 'West'. As to the Korean scene, it is clear that at the moment at any rate they cannot compete financially with the bigger 'Western' teams. On this point in particular I do worry that AG is too ready to make this a 'dog eat dog' situation, and should the smaller Korean teams go under simply would shrug his shoulders and express it as the inevitability of market forces, an attitude that I am not convinced is fully appropriate for the scene as a whole.
Why? To come full circle back to the start of the post, it is because of the skill differential, which it seems to me stems from a different cultural and social mindset. If this is true, and that may be a big if and I am sure people will vary on their opinions there, then taking big players out of the Korean StarCraft II scene will eventually harm it, not help it, as it will make the Korean scene itself less, not more supportable, and thereby lead to a decrease in the number of players playing it, with the predictable end result that the skill pool slowly empties. Short term gain for long term losses? I think it is certainly a potential end result of this sort of behaviour, although I with withhold final judgement until I discover what the Korean plans are that AG hinted at in yesterday's broadcast.
The tl;dr version: if Korean skill is only supportable in a Korean environment, then sapping the talent before the scene can establish itself is a long term loss internationally.
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Wow, this whole thing seems to have been blown out of proportion. From what I understand it all comes down to EG thinking it was fine to let Puma handle things with TSL, while TSL thought they should have been contacted directly and would have liked a slower approach to the thing. Can't see why this is such a big deal.
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On July 22 2011 17:01 Mazeltov wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net You can also contact the companies and explain your views of the situation. It may not get anything done/accomplished but hey freedom of speech.
wtf u cant boycott Intel...There the only good company with good processor chipd (i7 best on the market)
and my new computer came with some bigfoot network crap installed on it. LOL.
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EPT
