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On July 22 2011 15:16 Substandard wrote:
duh don't see how what EG did was wrong.
Look at it from the players side. A player of Pumas caliber had no contract and didn't get a salary. Basically they were only willing to pay him a salary if there was a threat of him moving away due to an offer from another team. How ridiculous is that?
If you want/need a player on your team you should give him a fair contract. EG imho had every right both legally and morally to contract a player who was basically being exploited.
Next news update: "EG the merciful, saving poor Korean progamers". IMO, the player's situation is pretty irrelevant. It's whether or not EG did the right thing as a business. Legally, sure, but ethically, that's where the argument starts.
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On July 22 2011 15:01 ore0z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 14:45 TheAmazombie wrote:
So after hearing both sides, here is what I am getting out of everything:
1. EG looks to get a Korean player.
2. Puma comes to America.
3. EG meets Puma, says "Hey, if you are ever interested, we will take care of you. Here's my card."
4. Puma decides that might be a good idea, talks to EG and says "I will talk to my coach myself please. I think it would be best." and EG agrees.
5. Puma talks to Coach, he is hurt but understands, they throw a party and send him off.
6. Puma calls EG, says "Yo, I talked to my coach, it was good, he understands."
7. EG and Puma start negotiations.
8. Coach feels hurt and disrespected, makes it public.
9. Forums blow up vilifying EG for "poaching."
10. Coach speaks out again, still feels disrespected by both EG and Puma.
11. EG speaks out, says that they felt correct as the player and them decided on how to approach this.
So here is my problem: I think EG is right both legally and socially. I also think that if Puma said that he wanted to talk to his coach himself and EG went around his back to talk to his coach, it could have pissed off the player, he could have been like "Screw you, I will go to a different team since you disrespected me." and both TSL and EG lose and the forums are still vilifying EG for treating a Korean badly. I think that unless everyone, Puma, TSL, and EG all came together in a room and were 100% happy, then EG was going to be the bad guy no matter what when it sounds like they did nothing wrong at all. I think it's more like EG looks to a korean player Puma comes to America EG meets Puma Puma and Eg decides to talk to TSL coach Miscommunication between Puma and Coach and Coach thinks Puma and EG have already signed Coach feels it is disrespectful for EG to not talk to the Coach, but instead talk to Puma Coach speaks out Alex Garfield speaks out, but still no official statement from EG Alex feels this is the right way to approach things
I think this is a great account of what happened. The fact is the news simply broke too early because of a misunderstanding between puma and the coach? It seems like Mr. Lee thought that Puma was already signed with EG when he decided to leave, and after sending him off, he made the tweet, and play XP broke the news that milkis later translated, but they had the fact of puma already being signed wrong.
and thus a 300 page shitstorm was born
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^^And those of us with half a brain were predicting 200 pages ago that we should wait to hear the other side of the story before issuing sweeping condemnations.
Goes to show you that TL dramas (and most internet forum dramas) shouldn't be taken seriously, if for some reason you needed convincing.
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LoL at EG's statement...
Now it's puma whowanted to talk to coach...
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@Milkis, considering u are kinda of the voice of Korean SC, because of all your public appearances as a translator or more, it should have been nice of u to also contact EG and see their side of the story from the start. As u can see your article steered up alot of controversy that could have been avoided, thus, giving all of the parties a bad name one way or the other (eg, tsl, puma).
Even if u didn't want it or not, your active involvement in SC has made u more then an ordinary translator, because u are one of our only sources of Korean news, thus your actions can have a bigger impact then u might think, specially when u pick 1 side and totally demonize the other intentionally or unintentionally.
After i heard the interview yesterday, i had no logic choice but to agree with EGAlex and what EG did, and how they did it. It's perfectly normal and i would have considered it perfectly normal from the start if i knew ...basically anything about how EG worked things out. All of his statements and ideas were also true. Korea should wake up at a certain point in time to the real world and how things are actually moving. This is at-least my personal 2 cents on the story.
What the TSL coach did was childish at the very least. He accepted and had no problem with Puma leaving, then started crying because he didn't receive a fer-well card from EG, leading to a downgrade of foreign image in KR and even make Puma feel like hell. I thought a coach was ok with it wanting the best for his player, after that he wants to make the SC world point fingers at him as some kind of black sheep that finally appeared in KR? Very childish attitude, this problem could have been solved in not such a public method,
I am personally disgusted at this very childish non-realistic, non-profitable and under any way good image TSL is bringing to Korean team leadership, i really am. If u continue like this, not only attitude but business wise, u will find Korea to be sitting alone profiting just from Broodwar, because Korea basically is becoming very very very small now, considering new competitions even better organized with a qua triple fan base appear over night outside Korea.
I really hope Korean players form some kind of committee soon and start realizing SC2 is not Broodwar were Korea was basically SC heaven island. SC2 is global, and it's beginning to be much better then gom or anything, considering we took it from 0, and got in 1 year to competitions that are bigger that gom's. Broodwar will die in time, and u will be left all alone with a broodwar fanbase, and 0 in SC2, because u will be left in the dust by the foreign competitions, by the time your mentality about e-sports matures.
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Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net
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On July 22 2011 15:16 Substandard wrote:
duh don't see how what EG did was wrong.
Look at it from the players side. A player of Pumas caliber had no contract and didn't get a salary. Basically they were only willing to pay him a salary if there was a threat of him moving away due to an offer from another team. How ridiculous is that?
If you want/need a player on your team you should give him a fair contract. EG imho had every right both legally and morally to contract a player who was basically being exploited.
Keep in mind that no one is debating any of that. If you read the thread, you''ll realize people are discussing the methods EG used, and not what you are describing.
It isn't about contracting a player, but rather, the way they did it.
It isn't as if EG contacted the coach and they worked out a deal.
I don't disagree with what EG did, and also don't blame Lee Woon Jae for being upset. Still, you completely missed the point of this 6000+ reply thread...
The issue at hand is how they went about it. Keep up!
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On July 22 2011 15:55 RANDOMCL wrote:
It isn't about contracting a player, but rather, the way they did it.
It isn't as if EG contacted the coach and they worked out a deal.
Yeah, because handing out business cards at an open, public tournament is oh so terrible. They didn't contact the coach because Puma took their expressed interest and turned it into a full-on signing discussion. They didn't contact TSL because they weren't specifically seeking Puma, and more than likely weren't aware that he was willing to jump ship so quickly.
If you honestly think EG sat down with every Korean player until they could coerce one to quit their team...
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On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net
You're fucking stupid. There i said it. I'm ready for my lashes.
User was warned for this post
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On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net
Yeah, I have to disagree. I still do not think that EG did anything wrong and they are being vilified for normal business practices and respecting certain wishes which conflicted with others. PLease do not boycott these for any reason. The sponsors can retaliate if they see fit.
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On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net
what? omg... So you are gonna boycott EG b/c of what is pretty much just a miss-communication. I cant belive people make such a big deal of this. PuMa said that he was goin to talk with the coach, does so, have a good talk, then Coach Lee gets upset cause his team is falling a part and does this interview, without even trying to contact EG to tell them that he is upset...
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On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net
Seriously dude you are just stupid...
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How about we look past the ethics of this decision until we hear more from EG and instead focus more on what this move means for EG and the foreign scene? :D
I think this is a good move for the players on EG since it gives them a much better practice partner who is familar with a team house already but I can't see how this helps Puma at all.
Frankly he now has less skillful (tho obviously still skilled) practice partners overall as well as having to play on a much weaker server for ladder. I'm not sure how they are going to keep him up to snuff, but i'm sure they have some plan.
Overall this move makes EG a much stronger team and lets them compete, I think, with Mouz/Dignitas/Fnatic more consistently. If I were them i'd drop a few players from the bottom and grab one more big name (pref a protoss for a big 3 line-up) to solidify myself as the best team and win all the monizes. As it is the difference between the top and the bottom of the team is staggering and makes no sense for such a big team with what seems to be a lot of financial latitude.
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On July 22 2011 16:17 GoldenGun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net You're fucking stupid. There i said it. I'm ready for my lashes.
I don't think you know how to read... He listed their sponsors for people who want to boycott them. Not him.
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So when my employer tells me I need to work 40 hours a week and turn up at this time every day that's normal.
When a Starcraft team tells it's player that they're proving food and accomodation to that he needs to practice X hours a day that's slave labour?
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On July 22 2011 16:17 GoldenGun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net You're fucking stupid. There i said it. I'm ready for my lashes.
I hope you get banned.
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So the guy EG puts on weapon of choice brags about how EG has contacted numerous Korean team's management etc. and conducted multiple buyouts for various players, but he completely fails to contact TSL's management and then follows up by trying to justify his hypocrisy for the remainder of his time on the show.
This move wreaks and puts a bad face on western e-sports.
Am I the only one that views EG going to NASL to try and manipulate Korean players without their management present as predatory and completely unethical ?
Yeah he wasn't contracted, but that was because Koreans have an honor based culture. It is radically different than the cesspool of western society where a person's word or promise is completely worthless.
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On July 22 2011 15:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net
EG did nothing wrong. They approach a free agent welldone EG. Matter infact thx for the sponsor list ill go support them just becuase I think what EG did was a good business move.
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On July 22 2011 16:35 HyperLimen wrote:
So the guy EG puts on weapon of choice brags about how EG has contacted numerous Korean team's management etc. and conducted multiple buyouts for various players, but he completely fails to contact TSL's management and then follows up by trying to justify his hypocrisy for the remainder of his time on the show.
Uh did you actually listen to the interview? They shopped around earlier about buying some top pro's but didn't like the transfer fees people were asking for so they then took the step of passing out business cards at the NASL finals. Puma then got in contact with them and this whole deal started, there was no hypocrisy here.
On July 22 2011 16:35 HyperLimen wrote:
This move wreaks and puts a bad face on western e-sports.
Totally killing ESPORTS, I agree.
On July 22 2011 16:35 HyperLimen wrote:
Am I the only one that views EG going to NASL to try and manipulate Korean players without their management present as predatory and completely unethical ?
Yes.
Handing out business cards is predatory, unethical and manipulative?
Have you ever actually been to a business conference?
You could build a goddamn fort out of all the cards you get.
On July 22 2011 16:35 HyperLimen wrote:
Yeah he wasn't contracted, but that was because Koreans have an honor based culture. It is radically different than the cesspool of western society where a person's word or promise is completely worthless.
Hahah no.
Koreans use contracts the same as everyone else, go look up Kespa and read about how it regulates it's players then try to say that with a straight face.
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On July 22 2011 16:35 HyperLimen wrote:
So the guy EG puts on weapon of choice brags about how EG has contacted numerous Korean team's management etc. and conducted multiple buyouts for various players, but he completely fails to contact TSL's management and then follows up by trying to justify his hypocrisy for the remainder of his time on the show.
This move wreaks and puts a bad face on western e-sports.
Am I the only one that views EG going to NASL to try and manipulate Korean players without their management present as predatory and completely unethical ?
Yeah he wasn't contracted, but that was because Koreans have an honor based culture. It is radically different than the cesspool of western society where a person's word or promise is completely worthless.
I am sure other teams where there talking to some Koreans fist of all. Second, how is talking to a player "manipulating?" Also, our culture is different. Why is it so wrong for a team to approach a player as our culture sees okay without "respecting" Korean culture when the Korean teams also did not seem to make an effort to teach there players about American culture? It is a double standard to expect everyone to conform without educating their players as well, and they may have, which makes it more okay because that means that there was no "manipulation", as you put it, at all.
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EPT
