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Wonder if Puma's going to get a backlash from the Korean netizens. Last I heard, they were pretty disappointed in him.
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Overall, just seems like dirty business from EG but they are EG so thats what i expected.
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On July 22 2011 02:22 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:10 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:07 canikizu wrote:On July 22 2011 02:05 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:04 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:54 ploy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:53 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:51 Capook wrote:
Why are people mad that the TSL coach wasn't contacted? Is it really the tradition in Korea that you're supposed to ask somebody's current boss permission to hire that person?
It is certainly not this way in the west...
Of course if Puma is violating some contract then there's a legal issue, but nobody seems to be accusing anybody of breach of contract. Why all the rage? It is that way in the West. Seriously wtf jobs do you work? It is not that way in the west.. AT ALL. Everyone who thinks it is must seriously be 14 and jobless or... I honestly don't know. In Western sports if you want to sign a player you approach the team first. not necessarily depends on what situation the player is in. if u wanna sign the player u approach the player if you want to approach a team you TRADE for the player. you cant approach a player under contract You approach the player, THEN apporach the team, not skipping it. again not true, if a player is not under contract you never approach the team. hes a free agent why do you need to apporach the team, there IS NO TEAM. if youre approaching a team this means that the player you are targetting IS under contract. however there is no governing body that handles these kinds of interactions between teams and players in sc2 so it really doesnt matter HOW eg handled it, this is what puma wanted. If he was under some kinda strict contract TSL could easily place legal action against EG. sounds more like puma's contract was an RFA type. You never have to approach a team if youre signing another player... Again he's morally contracted, and since it's the way they do it over there, EG should be aware of that and approach the proper way, not skipping it in the name of convenience. People can say whatever they want about legality, but in the end of the day, what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, and EG handled it wrong.
That is your opinion (which you are entitled to). You perceive what EG did as wrong, I do not. Morality is pretty damn subjective
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On July 22 2011 02:08 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:04 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:54 ploy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:53 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:51 Capook wrote:
Why are people mad that the TSL coach wasn't contacted? Is it really the tradition in Korea that you're supposed to ask somebody's current boss permission to hire that person?
It is certainly not this way in the west...
Of course if Puma is violating some contract then there's a legal issue, but nobody seems to be accusing anybody of breach of contract. Why all the rage? It is that way in the West. Seriously wtf jobs do you work? It is not that way in the west.. AT ALL. Everyone who thinks it is must seriously be 14 and jobless or... I honestly don't know. In Western sports if you want to sign a player you approach the team first. What sport is this true in? The cavaliers were not approached by all the teams that wanted Lebron, football teams arent approached by all teams that want the free agents, the players are the ones approached. The only time that the team is approached is when you dont wanna the player away but you wanna sign him to work for your team in addition to his current one (happens occationally in MLS (Major League Soccer)).
Free agents, that's the key phrase. PuMa was not a free agent afaik (otherwise he would've have to be "released").
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EG truly are Evil Geniuses
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I just hope EG doesn't become the New York Yankees of E-Sports.
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A lot of drama about a butthurt coach, why ?
Was there no legally binding contract ? If not, does this coach actually expect other teams, foreign or domestic, to play nice ? Does he expect (culturally inclined) niceness to stand in professional competitive global scene ?
Puma is getting better from this deal, gonna get a (better) salary, move to LA, stomp nerds in MLG, travel to all kinds of places in the world.....
Who cares about the coach, congrats Puma!
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I for one do not like how this deal went down just seems like dirty business, but I guess so be it. The only thing I am disappointed about with this move is that we won't see Puma in the GSL  .......
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On July 22 2011 01:33 Futarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:30 flanksteak wrote:Next time you're offered a better job than you're working currently, be sure to turn it down out of loyalty  Lol yeah, and while you're at it, ask the guy offering you a better job to ask your boss for permission first. Free competition should remain free.
I've had this happen a couple times. The best way to handle this is to start a bidding war. It turns out, TSL didn't have the budget. End of discussion.
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On July 22 2011 02:22 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:10 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:07 canikizu wrote:On July 22 2011 02:05 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:04 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:54 ploy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:53 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:51 Capook wrote:
Why are people mad that the TSL coach wasn't contacted? Is it really the tradition in Korea that you're supposed to ask somebody's current boss permission to hire that person?
It is certainly not this way in the west...
Of course if Puma is violating some contract then there's a legal issue, but nobody seems to be accusing anybody of breach of contract. Why all the rage? It is that way in the West. Seriously wtf jobs do you work? It is not that way in the west.. AT ALL. Everyone who thinks it is must seriously be 14 and jobless or... I honestly don't know. In Western sports if you want to sign a player you approach the team first. not necessarily depends on what situation the player is in. if u wanna sign the player u approach the player if you want to approach a team you TRADE for the player. you cant approach a player under contract You approach the player, THEN apporach the team, not skipping it. again not true, if a player is not under contract you never approach the team. hes a free agent why do you need to apporach the team, there IS NO TEAM. if youre approaching a team this means that the player you are targetting IS under contract. however there is no governing body that handles these kinds of interactions between teams and players in sc2 so it really doesnt matter HOW eg handled it, this is what puma wanted. If he was under some kinda strict contract TSL could easily place legal action against EG. sounds more like puma's contract was an RFA type. You never have to approach a team if youre signing another player... Again he's morally contracted, and since it's the way they do it over there, EG should be aware of that and approach the proper way, not skipping it in the name of convenience. People can say whatever they want about legality, but in the end of the day, what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, and EG handled it wrong.
but eg didnt skip it because of convenience, they did it because that is the way for it to be done. there is NO rule saying eg cannot directly approach the player which they did. i dont agree with what EG did at all but its confusing to see people judge and base their own opinions on what EG did as "right or wrong". there are no rules right now you got the money you got the player practically. i dont agree with this but all im saying is everything above is incorrect, you do not need to approach the team first, when there is a governing body perhaps that will be the case but this is a business theres no morality no rights and wrongs, eg did it there are no rules no repercussions so at the end of the day what did eg do "wrong"?
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On July 22 2011 02:15 GoKu` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:01 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 01:59 Telebear wrote:On July 22 2011 01:56 Walls wrote:The funny thing is that people ignore the points that are strong like the one I posted before, + Show Spoiler +This is going to make Koreans start generalizing foreigners and be scared of sending their players outside of korea.
thus weakening the scene. and only respond to the stupid ones. thats not a strong point though if korean teams want their brand to be known on an international scale they'll keep sending players to tournaments just because a korean joined a foreign team doesnt mean suddenly the borders are being shut and the koreans are forced to stay in korea No but as this will happen more and more often, my point could be true. Koreans have a history of being on their own and still being the best. Yeah letting the foreigners win tournaments in their own country will just DESTROY Esports... man does anyone think their post through anymore. Right now any Korea team can send out a player and the only way hes not winning that tournament is if another Korean goes, or HuK. Foreigner teams trying to strengthen their team is a good thing, if the Korean Teams get all of the money from NASL/IPL/MLG's then the foreigner scene could die out. Now this is small theory crafting but if the economy has taught us anything its that giving other countries money can be bad lol.
Id rather see the foreigner scene spend money on the right players. Atm i dont think alot of teams are. They are all putting their hopes into their old cliques of bw players or wc3 vets. Even people like idra says he doesnt need to practice because hes better then everyone so he'll practice when people catch up. incontrol saying that practice for eg as a whole was slipping so with the team house they can monitor practice better and make sure everyone is practicing enough. Tyler saying he really doesnt practice alot but when he wants to win something he can practice alot and win it.....wtf dump the slackers and invest in up and coming players who dont need to be forced to practice.
On July 22 2011 02:16 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:11 BZZ wrote:The point concerning Korean teams being worried to send players to NA/EU events is the most concerning part for me. If teams are worried that sending players to events will lead to "secret" offers to steal their players this will lead to an adversarial stance that is not good for competition. This also has to do with the economics of sponsorship. Big NA/EU teams are getting large sponsors allowing for better player salaries. Korean teams are reliant on smaller local Korean companies for SC2 due to the continued strength of SCBW in terms of taking larger sponsors. Right now, there may be a large exodus of Korean players to foreign teams as they will offer better salaries and financial rewards for performance; see FXOpen & fOu, SK & MC/NADA. I agree..very concerning, and I think this is where EG could have handled the transaction better than they did. I don't disagree with what happen. If i'm a team and I'm in the business of aquiring great players, then I'm in the business of looking for someone like Puma, but I do they could have handled it better.
It's EG why would they? And i disagree with not contacting the otehr manager at all. Id love to see what would happen if a manager from another team in hockey tried to steal crosby when he had his first really good season...the other team would laugh in the other teams face when crosby said iw ant to leave. Does tsl not contract their players?
On July 22 2011 02:25 MDMA_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:22 canikizu wrote:On July 22 2011 02:10 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:07 canikizu wrote:On July 22 2011 02:05 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:04 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:54 ploy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:53 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:51 Capook wrote:
Why are people mad that the TSL coach wasn't contacted? Is it really the tradition in Korea that you're supposed to ask somebody's current boss permission to hire that person?
It is certainly not this way in the west...
Of course if Puma is violating some contract then there's a legal issue, but nobody seems to be accusing anybody of breach of contract. Why all the rage? It is that way in the West. Seriously wtf jobs do you work? It is not that way in the west.. AT ALL. Everyone who thinks it is must seriously be 14 and jobless or... I honestly don't know. In Western sports if you want to sign a player you approach the team first. not necessarily depends on what situation the player is in. if u wanna sign the player u approach the player if you want to approach a team you TRADE for the player. you cant approach a player under contract You approach the player, THEN apporach the team, not skipping it. again not true, if a player is not under contract you never approach the team. hes a free agent why do you need to apporach the team, there IS NO TEAM. if youre approaching a team this means that the player you are targetting IS under contract. however there is no governing body that handles these kinds of interactions between teams and players in sc2 so it really doesnt matter HOW eg handled it, this is what puma wanted. If he was under some kinda strict contract TSL could easily place legal action against EG. sounds more like puma's contract was an RFA type. You never have to approach a team if youre signing another player... Again he's morally contracted, and since it's the way they do it over there, EG should be aware of that and approach the proper way, not skipping it in the name of convenience. People can say whatever they want about legality, but in the end of the day, what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, and EG handled it wrong. but eg didnt skip it because of convenience, they did it because that is the way for it to be done. there is NO rule saying eg cannot directly approach the player which they did. i dont agree with what EG did at all but its confusing to see people judge and base their own opinions on what EG did as "right or wrong". there are no rules right now you got the money you got the player practically. i dont agree with this but all im saying is everything above is incorrect, you do not need to approach the team first, when there is a governing body perhaps that will be the case but this is a business theres no morality no rights and wrongs, eg did it there are no rules no repercussions so at the end of the day what did eg do "wrong"?
Just because theres no legal right or wrong doesnt mean there isnt a moral right or wrong. Its just that in buisness no one cares about it and eg takes full advantage of it pulling shady move after shady move.
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Not sure why everyone is up and arms about this, as far as I can tell this was entirely puma's decision. Now, if he had signed a contract with TSL saying he could not leave the team for a period of time or whatnot then there would be a case but really, this is just poaching that happens in every kind of competitive scene. Hence the reason for contracts to stop such a thing from happening.
At the end of the day, it was puma who decided to leave for reasons already stated in page 4-5.
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On another note: I assume teams are putting/upping transfer fees in players contracts as we speak
Imagine a sponsor WTB PuMa as he reaches the final of a big tournament. Decision time up to 1 hour before final, offer whatever EG pays + 100$ and a lollypop.
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It will be very interesting to see if we get a press release from EG. Also interested in if Puma will stay in Korea or move to Arizona into the EG house.
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On July 22 2011 02:22 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:10 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:07 canikizu wrote:On July 22 2011 02:05 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:04 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:54 ploy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:53 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:51 Capook wrote:
Why are people mad that the TSL coach wasn't contacted? Is it really the tradition in Korea that you're supposed to ask somebody's current boss permission to hire that person?
It is certainly not this way in the west...
Of course if Puma is violating some contract then there's a legal issue, but nobody seems to be accusing anybody of breach of contract. Why all the rage? It is that way in the West. Seriously wtf jobs do you work? It is not that way in the west.. AT ALL. Everyone who thinks it is must seriously be 14 and jobless or... I honestly don't know. In Western sports if you want to sign a player you approach the team first. not necessarily depends on what situation the player is in. if u wanna sign the player u approach the player if you want to approach a team you TRADE for the player. you cant approach a player under contract You approach the player, THEN apporach the team, not skipping it. again not true, if a player is not under contract you never approach the team. hes a free agent why do you need to apporach the team, there IS NO TEAM. if youre approaching a team this means that the player you are targetting IS under contract. however there is no governing body that handles these kinds of interactions between teams and players in sc2 so it really doesnt matter HOW eg handled it, this is what puma wanted. If he was under some kinda strict contract TSL could easily place legal action against EG. sounds more like puma's contract was an RFA type. You never have to approach a team if youre signing another player... Again he's morally contracted, and since it's the way they do it over there, EG should be aware of that and approach the proper way, not skipping it in the name of convenience. People can say whatever they want about legality, but in the end of the day, what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, and EG handled it wrong.
If he was morally contracted he would not have left TSL. Plain and simple. You're trying to spin the "Asian morality issue" here, and I completely understand, but the fact of the matter is if he wanted to stay with TSL he would have. He is just as Korean as his managers. I highly doubt EG bullied him into taking it, given all the circumstances that will surround his being part of a foreign team (different practice, language barrier, more travel, being away from home, etc).
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On July 22 2011 02:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:08 Adreme wrote:On July 22 2011 02:04 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:54 ploy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:53 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:51 Capook wrote:
Why are people mad that the TSL coach wasn't contacted? Is it really the tradition in Korea that you're supposed to ask somebody's current boss permission to hire that person?
It is certainly not this way in the west...
Of course if Puma is violating some contract then there's a legal issue, but nobody seems to be accusing anybody of breach of contract. Why all the rage? It is that way in the West. Seriously wtf jobs do you work? It is not that way in the west.. AT ALL. Everyone who thinks it is must seriously be 14 and jobless or... I honestly don't know. In Western sports if you want to sign a player you approach the team first. What sport is this true in? The cavaliers were not approached by all the teams that wanted Lebron, football teams arent approached by all teams that want the free agents, the players are the ones approached. The only time that the team is approached is when you dont wanna the player away but you wanna sign him to work for your team in addition to his current one (happens occationally in MLS (Major League Soccer)). Free agents, that's the key phrase. PuMa was not a free agent afaik (otherwise he would've have to be "released").
if he was on contract then TSL does not have to release him, released BY CHOICE. also if he was on such a TIGHT contract there could easily be legal consequences none of which has happened so far.
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On July 22 2011 02:18 Assirra wrote:
Ok ppl need to stop comparing this to the whole employee/employer thing or at least compare it fair.
Its all good and well they asked him but where i got the problem here is they did when he was on "unknown territory" representing his team.
If you want to compare it to a job its more like
1. Your boss asks you to go work on a project from another company.
2. You do your work there and another company see you do your work extremely well.
3. You get offered a new job and accept.
4. You call your boss and say you move away and change jobs.
I have literally done exactly that and nobody was like "NOOOO, YOU'RE LEAVING ONE RED LOBSTER FOR ONE CLOSER TO YOU WHICH HAPPENS TO NEED A LINE COOK, HOW DARE YOU!!??". Seriously, it wasn't actually a big deal.
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On July 22 2011 02:22 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:10 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:07 canikizu wrote:On July 22 2011 02:05 MDMA_ wrote:On July 22 2011 02:04 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:54 ploy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:53 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:51 Capook wrote:
Why are people mad that the TSL coach wasn't contacted? Is it really the tradition in Korea that you're supposed to ask somebody's current boss permission to hire that person?
It is certainly not this way in the west...
Of course if Puma is violating some contract then there's a legal issue, but nobody seems to be accusing anybody of breach of contract. Why all the rage? It is that way in the West. Seriously wtf jobs do you work? It is not that way in the west.. AT ALL. Everyone who thinks it is must seriously be 14 and jobless or... I honestly don't know. In Western sports if you want to sign a player you approach the team first. not necessarily depends on what situation the player is in. if u wanna sign the player u approach the player if you want to approach a team you TRADE for the player. you cant approach a player under contract You approach the player, THEN apporach the team, not skipping it. again not true, if a player is not under contract you never approach the team. hes a free agent why do you need to apporach the team, there IS NO TEAM. if youre approaching a team this means that the player you are targetting IS under contract. however there is no governing body that handles these kinds of interactions between teams and players in sc2 so it really doesnt matter HOW eg handled it, this is what puma wanted. If he was under some kinda strict contract TSL could easily place legal action against EG. sounds more like puma's contract was an RFA type. You never have to approach a team if youre signing another player... Again he's morally contracted, and since it's the way they do it over there, EG should be aware of that and approach the proper way, not skipping it in the name of convenience. People can say whatever they want about legality, but in the end of the day, what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, and EG handled it wrong.
Well, if they did approach Coach Lee first, what could he have done then? Since he couldn't persuade Puma to stay nor could he make a better offer than EG.
1.Yell at them.
2.Demand compensation.
3.Withhold the info from Puma.
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On July 22 2011 02:24 slytown wrote:
I just hope EG doesn't become the New York Yankees of E-Sports.
And why not? That's such an amazing story! Think of how many viewers would tune in just to see the Evil Genius Empire fall. It would give such personality to the SC2 scene, and personality is what draws. Just look at Destiny.
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On July 22 2011 02:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:08 Adreme wrote:On July 22 2011 02:04 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:54 ploy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:53 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 22 2011 01:51 Capook wrote:
Why are people mad that the TSL coach wasn't contacted? Is it really the tradition in Korea that you're supposed to ask somebody's current boss permission to hire that person?
It is certainly not this way in the west...
Of course if Puma is violating some contract then there's a legal issue, but nobody seems to be accusing anybody of breach of contract. Why all the rage? It is that way in the West. Seriously wtf jobs do you work? It is not that way in the west.. AT ALL. Everyone who thinks it is must seriously be 14 and jobless or... I honestly don't know. In Western sports if you want to sign a player you approach the team first. What sport is this true in? The cavaliers were not approached by all the teams that wanted Lebron, football teams arent approached by all teams that want the free agents, the players are the ones approached. The only time that the team is approached is when you dont wanna the player away but you wanna sign him to work for your team in addition to his current one (happens occationally in MLS (Major League Soccer)). Free agents, that's the key phrase. PuMa was not a free agent afaik (otherwise he would've have to be "released").
If he didn't have a contract with TSL then he is a free agent. If he did have a contract with them then they didn't have to release him. No one really knows the details but it seems like Puma might have been playing for TSL without a contract and wasn't happy about that. Then when offered a contract took the opportunity.
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EPT
