for me it look like op thinks that when esport take all bad elements of other sports and try to be football its is professional. this word is so dam overused. everyone use this word if they want to say: "to be professional they must act like i want them to act, wear the clothes i want them to wear and say what i want to hear"
BTW its very interesting that sc2 is one of the only underground scene i saw who wants to be mainstream at all cost. Normally people of new coming sport fight to be different and dont get the bad sites of the mainstream sports. Here the people fight to sell it as fast as possible. Did you ever think about that, when you reach your goal and sc2 is as "professional" as other sports, people will stop watching it?
Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
On July 08 2011 03:13 Jibba wrote:
Everyone knows Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot.' Kevin Garnett told Charlie V he looked like a cancer patient and no one batted an eye.
No one cared.
Nobody batted an eye? Are you joking? This was the lead story on Sportscenter for like a week after it happened, with cancer groups/patients, nba players, coaches, fans, and analysts speaking out against Garnett. There was a HUGE backlash for him saying this. Just like Kobe cant call somebody a fucking faggot without the gay community speaking out.
Your definition of professionalism is arbitrary and completely disconnected from reality in every major sport.
People get fined for insulting certain people (usually officials) or doing it in a certain way (using 'faggot' or something like a throat slash.) They rarely get fined for trash talking and I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that they do.
Everyone knows Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot.' Kevin Garnett told Charlie V he looked like a cancer patient and no one batted an eye (from the NBA, obviously the media went nuts.)
Btw, players like Idra are being INVITED to these tournaments, they're not qualifying for most of them. Which speaks volumes that these companies understand telling someone to "fuck off" = money in the bank in esports. So good luck bud.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Shaq was fined for swearing while criticizing the refs. He wasn't fined when he accidentally swore the second time. Mark Cuban just swore on TV and didn't get fined.
It might be a cultural thing, but I really don't understand people who justify players behaving like an ass, or even worse, encourage it. I don't understand them on a very basic level.
So one player types "fuck off" to the other in chat (or rl), and there's this spectator, a fan, that goes "wow, this is sooo much more fun now, there's now this whole storyline between those two which makes my experience so much better" in his head. To me, this kind of attitude is weird and completely nonsensical.
It's like a giant mental erection of sorts induced by years of being mindfucked by the western entertainment media which is utter trash for the most part, driven by trash principles - drama sells, sex sells, awful humor sells, stereotypes sell, basically everything that's fucked up... yup, it sells. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
The weirdest (and somewhat amusing) thing about it is the sheer abuse of words. You can literally translate things from the "media language" to what they actually mean. So you have things like:
- He has a big personality. (he behaves like an asshole) - He's boring. (he's a nice guy that may or may not be actually boring) - The two of them have a storyline going. (two personalities guys continuously behaving like assholes in front of each other and the crowd) - He shows emotion. (the emotion is usually hate or anger - others don't really matter) - He is very competitive. (he's just a sore loser and not necessarily more competitive than the rest). - He is honest, he tells it like it is. (his arguments are obnoxiously disrespectful and he may or may not actually be honest - or right)
It's a whole bloody process of spinning behaviors and habits that are inherently socially wrong into something that's actually positive. You actually can see all of the above examples in this very thread.
One of the most painful things to read for me lately (related to this issue at least) were the comments in the State of the Game thread about how all the hosts now are "boring". If you could bring any people of choice on a podcast, you still wouldn't have the collective strength of personality and passion for the game that Tyler, Day9 and Artosis have, but there are people who actually don't see that.
To each his own, I guess. At least I'll always have the Korean scene.
Whats so weird about it? Confrontations like that create a story line for the game. It does make the game more interesting because it leaves the viewer wanting to see how the game will end. And more invested in the ending. As far as your words go its not really an abuse of meanings. Having a nice guy is boring, because they are just like everyone else (except sheth of course <3). However someone like idra or MC is much more entertaining to watch, because they are different, they bring something new to the game (their personality), whether its good or bad its up to you. Really you state that words are being abused, then go on to abuse their definitions yourself.
It's weird that you need some sort of an external motivation to want to see the outcome of a game. Isn't the point of being a Starcraft fan to watch Starcraft, because watching (and playing) it is inherently fun? Besides, not every storyline and rivalry needs BM at all. Are you saying Flash and Jaedong don't have "a storyline"? Boxer and Yellow? MMA and DongRaeGu? I love rivalries, I just hate artificial, fake ones (like Idra and Huk, literally all their mutual games bar 1 were awful).
Secondly, how are nice guys boring? They can have interesting things to say. They can have a genuine good sense of humor. In Starcraft, they can be fantastic players and smart and articulate enough to talk about the game, strategies, etc. Do you require someone to stir up drama in order to be entertained? You asked me what's weird - well, that would be weird.
Um "nice guys are all the same"... I don't even know how to respond that. I honestly don't.
Oh, and as for words and definitions, are you implying that the term "personality" does, in fact, relate to how obnoxious a person is? English isn't my first language, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that in any context.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
I'd argue that the NBA and E-Sports in general have very different target audiences. The NBA fines players for swearing in public and when they're caught on camera because their audience is, in a generalized sense, everyone. They try to appeal to all demographics, young and old. Look at the playoff commercials where they show the legends of the past, such as Larry Bird and Jordan, along side the new faces of the NBA, Durant and Lebron. Because of this wide demographic spread they have to censor it for public consumption.
Presently, E-Sports is a niche market that appeals to a small target market that sponsors and tournament organizers recognize. This market, known generally as "gamers," is usually not insulted when they see BM because they're accustomed to it. In addition, some of the biggest draws to these tournaments beyond hype is the drama and storylines. IdrA vs MC at Dreamhack in an epic rematch is one small example.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Shaq was fined for swearing while criticizing the refs. He wasn't fined when he accidentally swore the second time. Mark Cuban just swore on TV and didn't get fined.
So youre saying an NBA player did get fined for swearing? And Mark Cuban has been fined millions of dollars for saying and doing stuff he isnt supposed to be doing as an NBA owner, just because it doesnt happen once doesnt mean it hasnt happened a dozen other times.
It might be a cultural thing, but I really don't understand people who justify players behaving like an ass, or even worse, encourage it. I don't understand them on a very basic level.
So one player types "fuck off" to the other in chat (or rl), and there's this spectator, a fan, that goes "wow, this is sooo much more fun now, there's now this whole storyline between those two which makes my experience so much better" in his head. To me, this kind of attitude is weird and completely nonsensical.
It's like a giant mental erection of sorts induced by years of being mindfucked by the western entertainment media which is utter trash for the most part, driven by trash principles - drama sells, sex sells, awful humor sells, stereotypes sell, basically everything that's fucked up... yup, it sells. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
The weirdest (and somewhat amusing) thing about it is the sheer abuse of words. You can literally translate things from the "media language" to what they actually mean. So you have things like:
- He has a big personality. (he behaves like an asshole) - He's boring. (he's a nice guy that may or may not be actually boring) - The two of them have a storyline going. (two personalities guys continuously behaving like assholes in front of each other and the crowd) - He shows emotion. (the emotion is usually hate or anger - others don't really matter) - He is very competitive. (he's just a sore loser and not necessarily more competitive than the rest). - He is honest, he tells it like it is. (his arguments are obnoxiously disrespectful and he may or may not actually be honest - or right)
It's a whole bloody process of spinning behaviors and habits that are inherently socially wrong into something that's actually positive. You actually can see all of the above examples in this very thread.
One of the most painful things to read for me lately (related to this issue at least) were the comments in the State of the Game thread about how all the hosts now are "boring". If you could bring any people of choice on a podcast, you still wouldn't have the collective strength of personality and passion for the game that Tyler, Day9 and Artosis have, but there are people who actually don't see that.
To each his own, I guess. At least I'll always have the Korean scene.
Whats so weird about it? Confrontations like that create a story line for the game. It does make the game more interesting because it leaves the viewer wanting to see how the game will end. And more invested in the ending. As far as your words go its not really an abuse of meanings. Having a nice guy is boring, because they are just like everyone else (except sheth of course <3). However someone like idra or MC is much more entertaining to watch, because they are different, they bring something new to the game (their personality), whether its good or bad its up to you. Really you state that words are being abused, then go on to abuse their definitions yourself.
It's weird that you need some sort of an external motivation to want to see the outcome of a game. Isn't the point of being a Starcraft fan to watch Starcraft, because watching (and playing) it is inherently fun? Besides, not every storyline and rivalry needs BM at all. Are you saying Flash and Jaedong don't have "a storyline"? Boxer and Yellow? MMA and DongRaeGu? I love rivalries, I just hate artificial, fake ones (like Idra and Huk, literally all their mutual games bar 1 were awful).
Secondly, how are nice guys boring? They can have interesting things to say. They can have a genuine good sense of humor. In Starcraft, they can be fantastic players and smart and articulate enough to talk about the game, strategies, etc. Do you require someone to stir up drama in order to be entertained? You asked me what's weird - well, that would be weird.
Um "nice guys are all the same"... I don't even know how to respond that. I honestly don't.
Oh, and as for words and definitions, are you implying that the term "personality" does, in fact, relate to how obnoxious a person is? English isn't my first language, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that in any context.
Do you watch real sports at ALL?
Zidane was amazing. Mike Tyson was amazing. Everyone hating Lebron was amazing. The Detroit-Colorado fight was amazing. Yes, Pete Sampras was boring as hell and Andre Agassi was interesting. You might think that mentality is wrong, but there's countless examples that show the general public completely disagrees with you.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Shaq was fined for swearing while criticizing the refs. He wasn't fined when he accidentally swore the second time. Mark Cuban just swore on TV and didn't get fined.
So youre saying an NBA player did get fined for swearing? And Mark Cuban has been fined millions of dollars for saying and doing stuff he isnt supposed to be doing as an NBA owner, just because it doesnt happen once doesnt mean it hasnt happened a dozen other times.
He got fined for swearing about the refs. He wasn't fined when he was swearing at something else. Plenty of players have been caught swearing and haven't been fined. The NBA is simply ultra protective of their terrible refs.
Nobody batted an eye? Are you joking? This was the lead story on Sportscenter for like a week after it happened, with cancer groups/patients, nba players, coaches, fans, and analysts speaking out against Garnett. There was a HUGE backlash for him saying this. Just like Kobe cant call somebody a fucking faggot without the gay community speaking out.
There was a politically correct backlash that actually represented very little to him, simply because it seemed like "the right thing to do." He didn't lose sponsors. Most of his fans didn't care. The NBA didn't care. Sportscenter just finds stupid shit to run on like they always do, because that's how they get ratings.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Everyone knows Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot.' Kevin Garnett told Charlie V he looked like a cancer patient and no one batted an eye.
No one cared.
Nobody batted an eye? Are you joking? This was the lead story on Sportscenter for like a week after it happened, with cancer groups/patients, nba players, coaches, fans, and analysts speaking out against Garnett. There was a HUGE backlash for him saying this. Just like Kobe cant call somebody a fucking faggot without the gay community speaking out.
The players get fined a infinitesimal percentage of their salary, a slap on the wrist, but in the end they are icons in their respective sports. At the end of the day, they go onto the court and do what they do best and the general public loves them for that. All the players who you mentioned have legions of fans still and while you make out their "punishments" to be so terrible, it was probably nothing to them and they could care less.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
I'd argue that the NBA and E-Sports in general have very different target audiences. The NBA fines players for swearing in public and when they're caught on camera because their audience is, in a generalized sense, everyone. They try to appeal to all demographics, young and old. Look at the playoff commercials where they show the legends of the past, such as Larry Bird and Jordan, along side the new faces of the NBA, Durant and Lebron. Because of this wide demographic spread they have to censor it for public consumption.
Presently, E-Sports is a niche market that appeals to a small target market that sponsors and tournament organizers recognize. This market, known generally as "gamers," is usually not insulted when they see BM because they're accustomed to it. In addition, some of the biggest draws to these tournaments beyond hype is the drama and storylines. IdrA vs MC at Dreamhack in an epic rematch is one small example.
Presently yes, it is a niche market, but have you seen how many posts there are on TL about trying to get esports to grow? How can you appeal to the same larger demographic that the NBA does if you allow players to act however they want and say whatever they want? Just because were used to BM doesnt mean everybody is going to think its OK. I mean if you play pickup basketball games regularly youve more than likely heard a few curse words thrown around, and probably said a few yourself, but that doesnt mean thats what should be aired on ABC during a professional game.
this is the first impression i got from watching foreign casts as sc2 got released. it bothered me in the beginning how american casters constantly joked around, said unneeded things, carry on jokes for a long period of time (i'm talking tastosis).
then i realized its just a cultural difference. i felt the same thing as a child, when i went up on the stage as a elementary school kid, i'd bow 90 degrees to my principle and shake his hand as he handed me a reward, another kid that went after me didn't even look at him, didn't shake and didn't bow. that actually ticked me off so much because its BM. i only realized its not BM but just the way it is.
compared to korean casters, american casters do lack professionalism (constant jokes) but thats what foreigners want, foreigners want idra like players, they want brock lesnar of sc2.
foreign casters are like your friends, as if they're watching with you. korean casters are presenters, they present what is going on to you.
but this only applies to esports or sc2. look at any other professional sport and they're all professional about it.
with that said i honestly don't care about BM and professionalism at the moment, esport is at its infant stages. when it gets big enough where a single word can offend a large group of people and at the same time be presentable to a mass demography, i'm sure rules will be applied.
People are so focused on spoken(typed) manners but does anyone ever create huge things about manner mules or dropping a nexus in someones base after they win?
Why is this so important? I just can't see it. Sure, there's something called crossing the line when you bm, but I love seeing progamers interact and BM just hypes up a series a lot (Idra vs MC anyone?)
Why would you wanna FINE a player for HUGE amounts when I would say most players are already struggling to make a living of the game?
E-sports is a modern sport, and do not need to be exactly like traditional sports.
A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
I feel that at the end of the day, a lot of people on TL are just here for the drama, the trash talk and the immature behavior and that's it. I guess we're all just human beings after all. Shortsighted and dumb human beings.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
I'd argue that the NBA and E-Sports in general have very different target audiences. The NBA fines players for swearing in public and when they're caught on camera because their audience is, in a generalized sense, everyone. They try to appeal to all demographics, young and old. Look at the playoff commercials where they show the legends of the past, such as Larry Bird and Jordan, along side the new faces of the NBA, Durant and Lebron. Because of this wide demographic spread they have to censor it for public consumption.
Presently, E-Sports is a niche market that appeals to a small target market that sponsors and tournament organizers recognize. This market, known generally as "gamers," is usually not insulted when they see BM because they're accustomed to it. In addition, some of the biggest draws to these tournaments beyond hype is the drama and storylines. IdrA vs MC at Dreamhack in an epic rematch is one small example.
Presently yes, it is a niche market, but have you seen how many posts there are on TL about trying to get esports to grow? How can you appeal to the same larger demographic that the NBA does if you allow players to act however they want and say whatever they want? Just because were used to BM doesnt mean everybody is going to think its OK. I mean if you play pickup basketball games regularly youve more than likely heard a few curse words thrown around, and probably said a few yourself, but that doesnt mean thats what should be aired on ABC during a professional game.
Starcraft isn't being shown on ABC and the swearing isn't detracting from its chances of being on ABC. It will ALWAYS (read: ALWAYS) be a niche market and if it every ends up on American television, it will be somewhere like Spike or G4 where they really won't care nor will the FCC. Even in this bizarre little fantasy world where ABC cares enough about Starcraft to put it on television, they aren't going to have reservations simply because people swear at each other. They'll filter it or have a delayed blur, just like they do with real sports.
To the people who think BM hurts SC2's chances to "make it big," have a look at what streams and players get the most attention and why those players have a rabid following. If corporate sponsors want them to change, they'll simply ask them to. They're not going to pass them up, however, just because of past BM. That's absurd and in all likely they'll prefer it, because that's what gets people's attention. All the evidence we currently have points to the fact that BM is helpful to ESPORTS.
But the truth of the e-sports scene is as follows. We don't have multiple millions of viewers, viewers don't include entire families or alot of adults. E-sports is powered by mostly young adults. Eventhough respect makes for more friendly competition, small "BM" interactions if anything PROMOTES e-sports. People like drama, for example, most tv shows are drama, and shower it's audience in character development around drama.
Me personally, two players in a heated battle for pride makes the game more interesting.
No one is saying, start shit talking, but fining players for little controversial biased statements should definetly not be something the e-sports hosts need to look at cracking down on.
It's just absurd to think that idra would be fined for telling someone to fuck off.
In my professional opinion, there is no manner issue within the e-sports scene. Little things arise here and there, but should not be seen as a threat.
National Sports like the NFL have millions of fans, millions in revenue, they have a much larger audience and responsibility because most players are idolized. They're in a unique position of esteem and most would say alot of the celebration fines are over the top. But to promote a healthier less hostile environment it's crucial to limit tauting, because those types of acts cause hostility within the fans.
Now here's my last point. How many people wanted to stab idra or cruncher or huk, or anyone playing SC2 or CSS because they taunted their opponent. Next to none. How many people wanted to get revenge for being taunted at their home field after losing a game? ALOT MORE! (prime example Riot in Vancouver after the Cup was lost and there was little to no taunting)
Sports have loyal fans to certain teams. E-sports do not, all fans love the game itself and have favorites but not a feeling of ownership over their favorites like in pro sports.
EPT
