EPTDon't give nerds a bad name, there are plenty of great progamers out there like Boxer and Jaedong who are well-loved despite being very normal and well mannered. Some of you need to grow up and see how people would react to you if you act like the way you do in Battlenet at work or in front of many people. Being a progamer is a job, not a joke.
Professionalism in electronic sports - Page 10
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
Don't give nerds a bad name, there are plenty of great progamers out there like Boxer and Jaedong who are well-loved despite being very normal and well mannered. Some of you need to grow up and see how people would react to you if you act like the way you do in Battlenet at work or in front of many people. Being a progamer is a job, not a joke. | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
but for swearing? no. never. completely ridiculous. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On July 08 2011 02:33 Gamegene wrote: I sincerely apologize for not posting "you wrote a fan-fucking-tastic article." I didn't know that we were supposed to be giving him warm fuzzies all around, completely my fault. T_T? You're admitting that you were acting like a child or are you failing to read the sentence you just quoted? | ||
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ZarMulix
United States77 Posts
On July 08 2011 01:52 mki wrote: What is it, do you have a personal vendetta? I wasn't looking for an argument it was a post I found while looking through reddit which didn't have any relation to any post that someone had posted before. Stop assuming things. I think his issue, and probably the issue many people are having, is that your article doesn't do a good job of explaining your reasoning behind your thesis. I think that you assume that your point is obvious and therefore doesn't need explanation, but as is obvious from most of the replies here that is not true. If you don't argue the concept of censoring and professionalism itself, all you are doing is stating your opinion. But just stating your opinion is not your goal here. Your goal here is to inspire people to take action or see things your way (see: argument or persuasive article), hence, saying things like, "it's my opinion therefore it's biased" is not enough. You need to provide evidence, make more claims than your initial thesis, and most of all define and develop your idea. You never explain why "unprofessionalism" is bad. Trust me, you don't. I'm looking at the article right now. There is not one sentence dedicated to explaining why this is so. Not one. You say that BM and actions of the like should be denounced when possible, and mention that "the community's reaction was luckily very negative to this whole ordeal..." regarding the contracts issue. This is obviously an example of your stances on these issues and what you approve/disapprove of. But once again you do not tell me why this is the "right" stance to have on this. You complain that major organizations do not take BM seriously enough and that traditional/"professional" sports keep manners hidden or private. You say that Starcraft is not currently like that, and that " The same needs to become true for electronic sports." .. Why? Stop telling me what I NEED to do, what MUST be done, and what SHOULD be true without telling me why. I KNOW that you want things a certain way, but you have to prove that your way is superior in some way and way. Maybe it's inferior, but argue that. You don't argue anything, simply state your views. You definitely have the right to state your views, but you cannot expect people to see things your way without arguing morally, logically, etc. For example, I think that BM at this point in Starcraft 2 is helping it. From reading through several forums I have seen evidence of it igniting passion in spectators (positive or negative). I do not believe Starcraft's current audience is easily offended, and therefore companies who sponsor Starcraft will continue to do so and do not incur much more risk doing so. I think that censorship in general is a dumb idea because I believe it falls on the viewers/recipients to decide what is acceptable or not. No sweeping generalization will ever please everyone, but to think that popular opinion (which is what defines "acceptable") sets the standards for the filters that decide what information I get to receive is absurd in my opinion. You don't offer evidence to dispute the logical or philosophical parts that constitute my opinion (notice, not argument). I am willing to bet that anyone who reads your article (your target audience as stated at the end) and has the power to do anything about it will be testing your argument against their logic, their philosophy, and their biases. If you don't challenge their views, how do you expect to change them? So then the issue becomes, why did you write the article in the first place? It is likely not going to achieve your goal, you did not develop any novel ,or any, ideas, and you're apparently not swaying even the casual readers of this forum. The response you're receiving isn't about you. It is about the article. People will argue about anything, but in order to have a good discussion you need to have a clear way of presenting information/arguments to one another. I know that you have this idea in your head, but all we get to see is the information placed in front of us. There is only so much that we can deduce without risking misinterpretation or wild assumptions. People are angry because you have chosen a stance that is not popular without taking the time or effort to actually say anything. People have the same reaction to those who tell everyone they're going to hell on the train (I live in NYC) because they're not of the same religion, people who say that being gay is wrong using the argument "Marriage is sacred," and the list goes on and on. These are perfectly valid opinions, but don't expect me to accept them without any discussion or evidence. Let us at least rationalize for a bit. I repeat myself, but this is because I think this is important for both you and whoever else decides to write up their opinion in an "article." If you're attempting to sway beliefs, you have to argue properly (as in using evidence, clear flows of logic, anything else I mentioned before - and more!). Bad writing (which is what this is) does not contribute much to more to E-Sports than the traffic it brings to random threads on TeamLiquid. I would even go so far as to argue that bad writing and articles such as these are BAD FOR E-SPORTS (hahaha, I said it), but that would require more thought, effort, research and most of all time which I do not have as I have to go get my passport application handed in. In case this wasn't clear (since I'm kind of all over the place), I claim that people are reacting on the quality of your writing rather than your opinion (since it isn't developed at all in the article). Therefore expect people to not take it seriously, and for people to react negatively when you add in bits and pieces of your argument as you respond to posts. You should not develop your idea in your replies, they should be fairly clear from the "get-go." I look forward to seeing more "high quality" opinionated articles from people in the future. Gotta go! | ||
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
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Chibithor
Brazil514 Posts
On July 08 2011 00:59 mki wrote: It's my opinion. I'm going to be one-sided about my opinion man... You didn't justify your opinion in any way though, and that was my problem. I could just say this blog is wrong and leave it that, too. | ||
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ronpaul012
United States769 Posts
By that I mean that in game trash talk and cursing between players is allowed, in fact its encouraged in most sports. You don't see a nfl player getting fined because he says "fuck you" after a dirty hit. You see them getting fined when talking to the media, or showboating after a touchdown excessively. But if the players have passion in game, and they leave it on the field, or in this case, in the game, then it should be allowed. I'm not one for encouraging random drama, but yeah it pumps me the hell up when I see ndamukong suh celebrate after a big sack. Now, after the game if he's still talking about it even though it was just a 2nd and 4 in the middle of the 2nd, thats when I have a problem. If huk wants to laugh at idra, and get idra on tilt, then let him. I have a problem if after the games are done they're still saying fuck huk. Instead Idra just claims huk can't beat him in a real game. Thats professional. Overall, there's no argument that there needs to be a solid level of professionalism, however I disagree with where you were drawing the line. p.s. just re-read the op and finishing with this: your completely wrong about the fact that referees punish players based on words. They only do it based on actions 90% of the time. Look at 2006 world cup, Zidane headbutts and gets kicked out. Guy who called his mother and sister a whore doesn't. Any hockey game, no penalties for yelling at each other, hit him and your going in the box. Football, after the play and before trash talk all the time. If you hit a player after the play though, thats a penalty. | ||
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AndyGB4
Canada156 Posts
I don't have a problem with the BM to be honest. Like everyone said, it brings out true emotion and creates some drama. I just think that the streams should be more careful and try to hide it, or at least put out a warning, so parents will know if their kids should be allowed to watch. Also, i know many people like to watch IdrA for his BM, but I'm pretty sure his number of fans would drop greatly if he wasn't such an amazing player. Who would follow a bad SC2 player who just gets pissed at everyone? His BM is kinda more of a bonus in my opinion. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
So one player types "fuck off" to the other in chat (or rl), and there's this spectator, a fan, that goes "wow, this is sooo much more fun now, there's now this whole storyline between those two which makes my experience so much better" in his head. To me, this kind of attitude is weird and completely nonsensical. It's like a giant mental erection of sorts induced by years of being mindfucked by the western entertainment media which is utter trash for the most part, driven by trash principles - drama sells, sex sells, awful humor sells, stereotypes sell, basically everything that's fucked up... yup, it sells. That's the only explanation I can come up with. The weirdest (and somewhat amusing) thing about it is the sheer abuse of words. You can literally translate things from the "media language" to what they actually mean. So you have things like: - He has a big personality. (he behaves like an asshole) - He's boring. (he's a nice guy that may or may not be actually boring) - The two of them have a storyline going. (two - He shows emotion. (the emotion is usually hate or anger - others don't really matter) - He is very competitive. (he's just a sore loser and not necessarily more competitive than the rest). - He is honest, he tells it like it is. (his arguments are obnoxiously disrespectful and he may or may not actually be honest - or right) It's a whole bloody process of spinning behaviors and habits that are inherently socially wrong into something that's actually positive. You actually can see all of the above examples in this very thread. One of the most painful things to read for me lately (related to this issue at least) were the comments in the State of the Game thread about how all the hosts now are "boring". If you could bring any people of choice on a podcast, you still wouldn't have the collective strength of personality and passion for the game that Tyler, Day9 and Artosis have, but there are people who actually don't see that. To each his own, I guess. At least I'll always have the Korean scene. | ||
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letmegopls
105 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Securitate
Canada31 Posts
On July 08 2011 02:35 Scarecrow wrote: Totally agreed with the article and surprised how many posts nitpick/disagree with it. There's a reason professional sport is so strict on BM and it's not about imposing morals. Simply, if you want eSports to attract sponsors that target the younger demographics you need a scene where typing 'fuck off' at your opponent in game chat is unacceptable and punished. What? How young of an audience do you think companies who sponsor esports would target? The game is rated T and the majority of people it would appeal to most likely has no problem with swear words aside from those on the internet who for whatever reason have this idea that swearing is going to kill esports. Do you honestly believe the people who get offended at "fuck off" wouldn't have a problem with humans being killed / blown up / ripped apart by various aliens? | ||
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Red Rain
United States9 Posts
Wrong, football fines players all the time for on-field antics, Basketball does it too. Baseball is the one that doesn't really go that path. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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Trowa127
United Kingdom1230 Posts
The best example I can think of is the Haye/Klitchsko fight on Saturday. It was one of the highest grossing boxing events of all time, the crowd was huge, I personally watched it in a pub where everyone was going insane, and did you see the back and forth before that fight? I think you need to keep your opinions to yourself. Not everyone (or even most people) buy into the stuff you are saying. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
On July 08 2011 02:41 ronpaul012 wrote: p.s. just re-read the op and finishing with this: your completely wrong about the fact that referees punish players based on words. They only do it based on actions 90% of the time. Look at 2006 world cup, Zidane headbutts and gets kicked out. Guy who called his mother and sister a whore doesn't. Any hockey game, no penalties for yelling at each other, hit him and your going in the box. Football, after the play and before trash talk all the time. If you hit a player after the play though, thats a penalty. Indeed. The kind of shit football players say to each other before plays is, to put it lightly, very mean. | ||
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dapanman
United States316 Posts
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AndyGB4
Canada156 Posts
Can u imagine what would happen if players would be running to refs crying "he said this to me, n he said that". It would be a mess. Also, if the referee would have heard Materazzi (vs Zidane), he would have gotten kicked out too, no doubt. But yeah, Refs are human and they dont always catch these things... Anyways, back to SC2, the difference with hockey/soccer/football players saying stuff during a game is that it usually isnt broadcasted to the whole arena and audience. But in SC2, its right there on the screen for everyone to see. I dont want to the BM to stop, it absolutely makes games and future rematches more exciting, but I think that because its shown to everyone (instead of being just between the 2 players) its a little bit in the wrong. A language filter would be a small solution here so atleast the words FUCK YOU dont pop out lol | ||
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TheImmortal
Hong Kong84 Posts
people's reactions and manners stay the same despite being online or offline. it's just basic manners. swearing at people were never a form of basic manners. and by the way, drogba was SERIOUSLY punished after swearing in front of the camera after the champions league game last year (or was it 2 years ago)... | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On July 08 2011 02:46 Trowa127 wrote: Do you honestly want to fine players who scrape by just because they are dedicated to e-sports? Ha, this one I haven't heard before. "Dedicated to e-sports".  No, nobody wants to fine people dedicated to e-sports. The OP talks about fining people who are obnoxious in public and major live events. | ||
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