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On June 23 2011 16:59 Slaytilost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 16:53 MavercK wrote:On June 23 2011 16:39 Olinim wrote:On June 23 2011 16:27 MavercK wrote:On June 23 2011 16:18 Olinim wrote:On June 23 2011 15:51 exittlight wrote:
I've always found (in my case) that pirating helps sales. When ever I pirate a game, Portal 2 most recently, I tell all my friends about it. When I tell all my friends about how great it is, they then go out and buy it themselves. If I never pirated it, they would have never bought it in the first place. Is this actually supposed to be some kind of justification? "I've always found (in my case) that stealing helps people. When ever I steal from someone, my friend most recently, they learn a valuable lesson. If I never stole from them they wouldn't have never learned their lesson, so in actuality, I'm helping them." exittlight logic right here guys. you'd be suprised how piracy can help sales rather than hinder it you know of the deus ex human revolution leak ? most people were basically set on the fact that, that game would be complete shit. after the leak almost every single person that played the leak came out and said "im totally buying this game, it's amazing" People would have read reviews and bought the game regardless if it was really that good, it's not like piracy is the only way to get information about a game or you blow 60 bucks, this isn't the NES era. i've never trusted reviewers. apart from getting paid they get shunned if they give games bad reviews it really only happens with large corporations like EA or activision. yes yes, tinfoil hat, conspiracy blah blah bullshit. but the shunned thing is true reviewers are given early access to games to do reviews. if that reviewer does a bad review for one of their games they wont send them any more early access games. or worse you remember APB initial release? review embargo for a week after launch? because they knew the game was awful but were trying to sell it anyway before anyone knew? This whole argument is moot, Blizzard thought of that and implemented guest passes. And for anyone claiming that piracy is good for the games industry please realise what you are saying. Its like saying stealing bread from the baker is a good thing because you can say to your friends what a good bakery it is. You might want to read this to get a glimpse of the real effects. Did you know that for a large portion of games on the apple appstore 90% of the total downloads are pirated? Obviously, if piracy wasnt there they wouldnt sell 90% more. Some people just download because its easy and that, i get that. But there are people that would have brought the game instead of downloaded it.
i wasn't really talking about blizzard, i guess i got way too offtopic.
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On June 23 2011 16:18 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 15:51 exittlight wrote:
I've always found (in my case) that pirating helps sales. When ever I pirate a game, Portal 2 most recently, I tell all my friends about it. When I tell all my friends about how great it is, they then go out and buy it themselves. If I never pirated it, they would have never bought it in the first place. Is this actually supposed to be some kind of justification? "I've always found (in my case) that stealing helps people. When ever I steal from someone, my friend most recently, they learn a valuable lesson. If I never stole from them they wouldn't have never learned their lesson, so in actuality, I'm helping them." exittlight logic right here guys.
You can't just replace ''stealing'' with ''piracy''. Its a completely different thing. Something being pirated doesn't bring the same losses to a company then it being stolen.
What Exitt is trying to say, is that piracy can spread the popularity of something, but I think this is mostly the case in lesser known music, games, books, etc, rather then something made by blizzard who have plenty of resources to do advertising.
Anyway, back on topic, it's sad that something like piracy is effecting the customers in a negative way.. I wish a company would just ignore piracy and try to release a product thats as good as possible in every way, but I guess thats simply not possible...
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On June 23 2011 16:54 Nazarid wrote:
Fail i think we should be allowed to have a damn LAN there is no reason we cannot... Starcraft 2 is already pirated literally so if the so called new era of games have no LAN that harms the good people more than the pirates... and all the pirates get is LAN and single player which honestly who gives a shit....the good folks who want to play these games with LAN parties are unable to because it requires internet access for all who want to be in the same game... which of course requires some one to have a huge amount of internet good-put just to keep everything peachy without disconnects and lag.
Well, but there are possibilities to play LAN games over the Internet. So basically, if you implement LAN, the pirated games get an, albeit a bit worse, nearly complete multiplayer mode. And as SC2 is primarily a multiplayer game, and the pirated copies only having singleplayer is a pretty good argument to buy rather than pirate. But if the pirated games suddenly have LAN and as a result some kind of online multiplayer, that argument becomes a lot weaker, which will lead to some people who buy the game to instead pirate it.
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Also piracy isnt the only reason Blizzard didnt introduce LAN (yet?). They marketed the game as competitive online game using battle.net matchmaking, and they want to do everything thats possible to promote the use of that.
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How about we crash and burn PC gaming industry and start back at square one. Since we can't compete with soccermoms and their spawn for the gaming market and developers have become beyond paranoid about releasing their games on PC I really see no reason to go on like this.
Bad PC ports, scarcely any improvements graphic wise since all games need to be able to run on hardware that's 6 years old...
Just burn it all and watch small gaming studios sprout up on the burned soil. Fertilized with the shit that was.
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You're suggesting that all current game developers fire all their employees?
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On June 23 2011 17:06 Wrist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 16:18 Olinim wrote:On June 23 2011 15:51 exittlight wrote:
I've always found (in my case) that pirating helps sales. When ever I pirate a game, Portal 2 most recently, I tell all my friends about it. When I tell all my friends about how great it is, they then go out and buy it themselves. If I never pirated it, they would have never bought it in the first place. Is this actually supposed to be some kind of justification? "I've always found (in my case) that stealing helps people. When ever I steal from someone, my friend most recently, they learn a valuable lesson. If I never stole from them they wouldn't have never learned their lesson, so in actuality, I'm helping them." exittlight logic right here guys. You can't just replace ''stealing'' with ''piracy''. Its a completely different thing. Something being pirated doesn't bring the same losses to a company then it being stolen. What Exitt is trying to say, is that piracy can spread the popularity of something, but I think this is mostly the case in lesser known music, games, books, etc, rather then something made by blizzard who have plenty of resources to do advertising. Anyway, back on topic, it's sad that something like piracy is effecting the customers in a negative way.. I wish a company would just ignore piracy and try to release a product thats as good as possible in every way, but I guess thats simply not possible...
That's really not the point of it, like I stated earlier in the thread. It's that he rationalizes a selfish behavior and attempts to find a certain situation or aspect where it's supposedly beneficial to other people, when it's purely selfish.
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On June 23 2011 17:12 Slaytilost wrote:
You're suggesting that all current game developers fire all their employees?
I'm saying all employees should fire their executive.
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I thought you were saying that they should set them on fire?
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On June 23 2011 17:14 HeIios wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 17:12 Slaytilost wrote:
You're suggesting that all current game developers fire all their employees? I'm saying all employees should fire their executive.
And run around in circles all day long? Artists, game designers and programmers need management to steer them and the project.
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On June 23 2011 17:17 Simberto wrote:
I thought you were saying that they should set them on fire?
I sweareth it was a metaphorical fire. Like the one that burns in your heart, that doesn't burn in the hearts of current high skilled developers. We need to light that shit up, yo.
On June 23 2011 17:17 Slaytilost wrote:
And run around in circles all day long? Artists, game designers and programmers need management to steer them and the project.
Yet smaller studios like frictional games and uh.. uh.. others- Can function with a smaller crew and still make a good game. They need the fire in their souls LIGHTED UP.
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On June 23 2011 12:16 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 12:14 Zeke50100 wrote:On June 23 2011 12:12 Fruscainte wrote:On June 23 2011 12:11 mannerplease wrote:On June 23 2011 12:09 Fruscainte wrote:On June 23 2011 12:07 Zeke50100 wrote:On June 23 2011 12:03 Fruscainte wrote:On June 23 2011 11:58 mannerplease wrote:On June 23 2011 11:34 Fruscainte wrote:
The voice of "I PIRATE EVERYTHING SINCE I DONT PAY FOR EVERYTHING" is a very small part in the community but consequently the loudest -- giving the illusion they are the majority when in fact most of pirates hate their fucking guts if they like the game and don't buy it after.
These are potential customers that they are driving away as criminals. That's my issue with this crap. They take away something that is basically mandatory in a game like this and then when people flip a shit about it, they blame it on pirates. So you think self-reporting surveys are accurate. Do you really think that nobody lied about whether they buy the game? Furthermore, what about all the people who don't vote because they are ashamed. Or even better, the fact that MOST PEOPLE ARE APATHETIC means that the same people who don't give a shit about pirating and not buying are the same people who don't give a shit about your surveys examining the ethics of it. It's called a silent majority. You are in extreme rationalization mode if you really think most pirates buy games they like, and it's also a LOT easier to "not like" a game that you've played for 20 hours if it lets you talk yourself into keeping 60 bucks. So essentially, I got a legitimate poll of 12,000 people -- and you got yourself going LOL IT'S BIASED AND WRONG AND SINCE PIRATES ARE THE MOST IMMORAL PEOPLE ON EARTH IT'S OBVIOUSLY FAKE AND WRONG. Stay classy. Come back with something substantial please. I got a poll of thousands of people, people all throughout the thread backing me up saying they buy games they enjoy all the time and piracy has directly caused sales for them and so forth. Is Piracy morally wrong? Sure. I don't doubt that for a second. Is it legally or fiscally wrong? Not at all. In fact, everything is pointing that piracy directly helps the industry more than it hurts. Look a few pages back if you actually read the thread and you would see that government study, again, backing me up. You do know what response bias is, right? It's like going to colleges and asking students if they smoke marijuana. You see examples of this every day. If you spent any amount of time in Bitgamer and in the piracy community, as I said multiple times -- it would only reaffirm those statistics. How do you know people actually buy games when they claim to? So your argument is that people are lying (for no reason) that they are buying games? Both on a non-consequential poll, and thousands of people on forums and comment postings? There's a conspiracy out there to actually convince people we are buying games? There's a time to stop posting. This is about that time for you. I got actual people backing my points up and you got theoretical situations of a giant conspiracy against everyone. You probably should stop posting about statistics, actually. I support having LAN and agree that piracy is a stupid reason to keep it out, but this really is a disgrace to legitimate statistics >.> I wasn't using it as a legitimate statistic -- I was using it to reaffirm myself and everyone in this thread saying they buy games they pirate and the community being the majority in saying they buy games they pirate. Sure, it may not be 100% accurate -- I'm not saying it is. But come on, I make an entire post to make a point and you nit pick out one single part of it to simply re-enforce my point and explode it into something much bigger than it was meant to be. Basically, quit nitpicking bro.
Isn't he nitpicking the evidence part of your thread?
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On June 23 2011 17:19 HeIios wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 17:17 Simberto wrote:
I thought you were saying that they should set them on fire? I sweareth it was a metaphorical fire. Like the one that burns in your heart, that doesn't burn in the hearts of current high skilled developers. We need to light that shit up, yo.
Wrong thread dude 
On June 23 2011 17:19 HeIios wrote:
Yet smaller studios like frictional games and uh.. uh.. others- Can function with a smaller crew and still make a good game. They need the fire in their souls LIGHTED UP.
Smaller crews still include some form of project-management, be it a bit more agile (SCRUM, KANBAN etc) Executives, managers and the like arent always evil people that try to steal your babies. Some of them are actually quite nice!
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On June 23 2011 17:23 Slaytilost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 17:19 HeIios wrote:On June 23 2011 17:17 Simberto wrote:
I thought you were saying that they should set them on fire? I sweareth it was a metaphorical fire. Like the one that burns in your heart, that doesn't burn in the hearts of current high skilled developers. We need to light that shit up, yo. Wrong thread dude Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 17:19 HeIios wrote:
Yet smaller studios like frictional games and uh.. uh.. others- Can function with a smaller crew and still make a good game. They need the fire in their souls LIGHTED UP. Smaller crews still include some form of project-management, be it a bit more agile (SCRUM, KANBAN etc)
I want to ask you a question and I want you to answer it in truth. Is your heart on fire? Is your soul burning? I never meant anything about project managers, I love those guys. The executives are the ones who see potential profit as a bigger sell (harr harr) than potential quality. The kinds who dictate terms that are NOT great for their consumers but good for the shareholders.
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Well if we're going all methophoric, my heart is pumping blood through my veins. And in order to do that i need to go to the store and buy food. After i've established living i also try to enjoy myself, and make some fun products during my day job, and that whats lights my fire.
There is no company in the world that doesnt care about their customers, and only aims to bring the worst possible experience to them. There are no executives or shareholders that will potentially reduce the amount of sales on purpose. Why would they do that? It doesnt make any sense.
Yes my heart is on fire, by making games that sell good and are fun to play. There's actually quite a correlation between both of em
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I just wish they created some kind of system like this.
To do lan mode you have to some kind of internet, you can log on. Then if you and your friend are on the same router, you can directly connect to each other, and other people on the same network as well they can join as well. If bnet disconnects somewhere along the line? Game continues, and you just end up playing together through your network.
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On June 23 2011 17:31 Slaytilost wrote:Well if we're going all methophoric, my heart is pumping blood through my veins. And in order to do that i need to go to the store and buy food. After i've established living i also try to enjoy myself, and make some fun products during my day job, and that whats lights my fire. There is no company in the world that doesnt care about their customers, and only aims to bring the worst possible experience to them. There are no executives or shareholders that will potentially reduce the amount of sales on purpose. Why would they do that? It doesnt make any sense. Yes my heart is on fire, by making games that sell good and are fun to play. There's actually quite a correlation between both of em
Take a careful look at what I wrote, I never went to an extreme like you are (well maybe about burning them down, but come on). I'm tired of correcting myself in your assumptions, and thus I will burn you too. But not before I tell you something.
I understand how a business works, trust me. I understand how consumers work.
I'm saying we should start anew because I see no light at the end of the tunnel for PCgaming, we are going to get the shaft again and again until our asses are so sore that all we can do is ask for one more. It's the frog in boiling water effect, they keep adding nails to the coffin that is pc gaming, we've signed the release form for our bunghole. We will never go back to the way things were, and pirates (who are NOT consumers) is not to blame here, it's just that the console market is too great of a threat. It's not even david vs goliath, more like Roadrunner vs Megazord. This direction aint gonna work out for us.
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On June 23 2011 14:59 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 14:54 Khaymus wrote:
How is there 26 pages of discussion on this? It is a very simple topic. People are stealing games so companies are trying to counteract that.
You want LAN? Stop stealing from the company. That is never going to happen, so guess what...we don't get LAN anymore.
Get used to it. We did it to ourselves. stop acting like this entire community is stealing piracy is a small margin and nothing really changes that margin. the more a game is bought the more it is pirated. the less a game is bought the less it is pirated. it's always the same small minority margin. do super markets place huge restrictions on the way you shop because of shoplifters? do they say "if you dont want a security guard to follow you around the shop all day maybe you should stop stealing!" theft will always be present in every market forever. you want incentives for people to buy that they wont get if they steal. you DONT want incentives for people to steal other than cost.
Actually, they do have guards following customers in high risk neighborhoods. And yes, it is because of stealing.
You're privilege is showing, you might want to cover that up.
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On June 23 2011 16:51 karpo wrote:
Such a naive view on games and the industry.
I'm well aware that how I worded it, it would sound very naive. It is of course not that simple and people have to make money to run a business. What I tried to say in a very black-and-white-ish and exaggerating manner is, that you can only play the "business" card until a certain point. If game designers are not passionate and just think about the dollarz, games won't be good. Creating a good game involves a huge amount of and creativity (read: new stuff) and creativity has no place in a completely calculated business because you have no guarantee that something produces money if it hasn't been done before. What you're left with are EA/Activision style annual re-releases of a minimally altered old game.
On June 23 2011 16:47 Slaytilost wrote:
Pirates will always be pirates. Even if you bring the best game out there, people will still download it.
So you opinion is that you should make worse games, because people will pirate them anyways?
People who download everything and don't buy stuff even if it's good are not a factor. You lose no money through them as they would not buy anything anyways. Give people a reason other than "you are bad if you pirate it" to buy your product and they will buy it. I mean if the only reason to not pirate a game is a moral one people will sure as hell pirate it.
On June 23 2011 16:47 Slaytilost wrote:
Quite frankly, you are naive. Companies make money, thats the way everything works. But just because a product has to make money doesnt mean it can't be fun or good, or Blizzard cant spend more time and effort in it. I'm sorry that you hate SC2 that much, but blizzard has done a tremendous job of making an awesome game, which they are very skilled at. Especially Blizzard is known for their innovation and care they put in their games.
My post was exaggerated and naive on purpose (read above). I never said I hate SC2, but what I miss in it is Blizzard's known innovation that you cite. That and the fact that I will have to buy 2 expansions with predominantly singleplayer content I dont care about just to be able to continue playing multiplayer. Oh, and the fact that they have become so greedy that they dont let you have multiple accounts, free namechanges or play cross server because you could somehow buy the game cheaper in china. Bnet 0.2 doesnt have clan features, didnt have chat channels for quite some time and the dnd doesnt really block traffic so you can get spammed during tournaments. Some of this stuff would be really easy to implement, they just dont do it because they are too greedy. I still bought the game, like it and play it, but it lacks on innovation and polish.
The best game comes from indie studios? Are you serious? Name one. Do you really honestly believe that a bunch of guys with a loan from the bank are just going to make something and hope for the best, instead of doing endless market research, trying to figure out what the people want and create that. Indie developers are fragile, they dont have the bankaccounts big developers have. They cant just create something they love, what if it becomes a huge flop? Blizzard could handle it if SC2 failed miserably, do you really think any indie developer can when they just spend 6 months of work in a project?
I consider games such as trine, machinarium, minecraft etc. better games than 99% of the stuff major publishers release. I never said indie studios have it easy, just that they can make the better games IMO.
I wish everything you said was true, that if you just love what you do and put a hell lot of effort in it you become rich. But thats not the case, you actually have to get out of your chair and see if people would want to buy your game, do some market research and adjust your game design.
Of course you don't get rich. The question is if you rather want to be rich or do the stuff you wanna do. If it works out both then awesome, if not, you have to decide.
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On June 23 2011 17:09 Slaytilost wrote:
Also piracy isnt the only reason Blizzard didnt introduce LAN (yet?). They marketed the game as competitive online game using battle.net matchmaking, and they want to do everything thats possible to promote the use of that.
Spoiler alert: They tell you that to not make you an angry customer.
the only 2 reasons why there is no LAN are:
1. Piracy
2. No control over other leagues (they fear KESPA 2.0)
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EPT
