Season 3 Ladder Pool Updates - Page 27

On June 21 2011 01:19 Zaros wrote:
Why does every blizzard map have a super hard to take 3rd base >.>

On June 21 2011 06:41 Toadvine wrote:


It's not about human mistakes, this game just has completely out-of-whack interactions between the base units of various races. How is low-econ aggression supposed to work for Zerg if they are, by design (courtesy of David Kim @ Blizzcon), incapable of pressuring a one-basing player? How is the low eco thing supposed to work out if Terran has, by design, the highest 1 base income of all the races?

I wouldn't care about "rush maps" or whatever if these scenarios provided equal opportunity for all races, but they just don't.

On June 21 2011 04:08 GinDo wrote:
Is it just me but doesn't the 1v1 Macro Map remind you of Colloseum from BW. Except the !@#$ ton of rocks that make the third really easy to get.

On June 21 2011 06:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Anyways, if they're doing a rush like a 4 gate, why would they kill the rocks? Heck I've never even see a pro 4 gate on Crevasse by killing the rocks. It's a friggin 4 gate, you warp in units.
.

My view is largely on rock usage over expansions, which I do consider "bad". Rocks to block attacking paths are different as they ofter a Strategic option.

Many people here would agree that if someone only knew how to 1 base all in or his definition of a late game was taking his natural he would be not be "playing properly".

It's not about human mistakes, this game just has completely out-of-whack interactions between the base units of various races. How is low-econ aggression supposed to work for Zerg if they are, by design (courtesy of David Kim @ Blizzcon), incapable of pressuring a one-basing player? How is the low eco thing supposed to work out if Terran has, by design, the highest 1 base income of all the races?

I wouldn't care about "rush maps" or whatever if these scenarios provided equal opportunity for all races, but they just don't.

They mean the rocks on the ramp leading into the opponent's main so the 4gater's units don't have to go through a small choke, but a wide ramp instead. It is common to see pros take the rocks out because it stops a single forcefield from blocking the ramp completely.

On June 21 2011 06:35 Papulatus wrote:
All of these maps look TERRIBLE for Zerg. I'm losing faith that Zerg will ever be as good as Terran or Protoss. With a hard to take 3rd, Zerg is screwed. Add on that many of the gold bases are very viable 3rds for Terran and Protoss, I think that Zerg is just going to get EVEN WORSE if these new maps go live.

Lets just hope that they get changed significantly before they go live.

On June 21 2011 06:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:


You mean players should all learn how to play lategame games? There is no choice?

@Wren

That depends on the map. If you actually lose because the rocks are broken, it means you just took it too early.

Anyways, if they're doing a rush like a 4 gate, why would they kill the rocks? Heck I've never even see a pro 4 gate on Crevasse by killing the rocks. It's a friggin 4 gate, you warp in units.

[i]Also, your example doesn't make sense because no one 4 gates when someone already has 3 bases going. On Crevasse you could take your natural outside instead of inside, but on Kerrigan's why would you take your third before your natural?[/i]



Only if used badly.

On June 21 2011 06:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
they're not making rush maps so that rushes "are stronger", they're making them rush maps so that there is more pressure and aggression

ideally, it would be back and forth, low econ fighting, but humans make too many mistakes so it doesn't end up that way

On June 21 2011 06:30 aksfjh wrote:
Anybody want to elaborate why rocks are automatically a terrible abomination to maps?

On June 21 2011 06:45 KimJongChill wrote:


Definitely some affirmative action going on for Terran, but hey this is WoL right? I can't wait for HoTS where they better make every map GSL taldarim and cross spawns only. Then the other races will know how much Zerg has had to suffer. Lost temple cliff anyone/close spawn metal anyone?

against forge fast expand, making that many zerglings/teching to roaches and making roaches that early hurts you a ton

otherwise, you're right

all races are not created equal, it's very possible that some races have terrible low-econ aggression compared to other races. either you give all races near equal ability to play in low-econ scenarios, or these maps/spawns are imbalanced and need to be fixed.

In regards to your first fallacy, macro games teach people how to macro, how to scout, how to multi task, and how to manage resources properly. Cheese and all ins are totally viable and appropriate for BOX matches, but are worthless on the ladder. Cheese and all ins are not difficult to execute and you generally do not care what your opponent is doing. Imagine every TvZ you played was on meta close positions. So every game you did some kind of marine + scv all in. The moment that close position gets removed, or you play on a map like Tal Darim, you have absolutely NO IDEA how to play. You can still do cheese and all ins on maps like Tal Darim, Crevasse, and Terminus RE, but you can also play a straight up game.

Now onto your second fallacy. The ramp on Crevasse takes two forcefields to block the ramp if you destroy the rocks while it only takes one if the rocks are up. In addition, the more narrow a choke is, the more it favors the defender. If you can honestly say that you have never seen a pro 4gate on Crevasse and knock down the opponents rocks, then you are not watching.

Then your third and likely not final fallacy. If zerg takes a fast third in response to a perceived FE by the protoss, the protoss can punish that with a canceled nexus 4 gate. Which can and does happen. Protoss can also 6 gate against a fast third, which can and does happen against both terran and zerg.

Any more gems you would like to add to this thread?