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On June 15 2011 11:26 Teim wrote:
Displaying MMR in the future may be more likely than you think.
Blizzard kept it hidden for ages in the WoW Arena System, but just recently a couple of months ago started to display it. After the battle finishes you get to see the MMR of each individual player (on both teams) and the MMR of each team. You also get to see how much MMR was gained or lost for each player and team as a result of the battle.
It hasn't really had any negative impact on the arena system either, so I wouldn't be suprised if Blizzard isn't at least considering displaying it in SC2.
My thoughts exactly!
All it does is let players actually be able to gauge how good they are without guessing and stupid bullshit.
Its not the end of the world, but its not something hard either.
Frankly, 'exploiting' your MMR doesn't seem like anything useful except for achievement farming, but that's pretty stupid anyways, and i don't see it ruining the game experience for anyone in particular.
Also, I have a feeling all of the people who are against this have never played in a truly measurable competitive game/sport. Tennis and Chess are two great examples. I played tournament Chess in high school, and you are ranked by ELO. The ranking globally obviously don't mean shit, because I'm not top tier player at all. However! It is something that, even at lower levels of play, helped me find enjoyable, competitive games.
Displaying a player's ELO/MMR/Whatever system it is doesn't take anything away from the player. What it does do is allow the player to accurately gauge their skill against everyone else, like SC2Ranks has tried (and failed IMHO) to do. A simple ELO/MMR ladder would be the best global ranking system around.
And for all of you nay-saying me, what the fuck do you think TeamLiquid uses for TLPD you retard? ELO. That should be enough said. If all players knew their ELO, how could it hurt? Seriously?
If someone can give a compelling reason why ELO should not be displayed, please bold your response so I can read it.
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On June 15 2011 11:26 Teim wrote:
Displaying MMR in the future may be more likely than you think.
Blizzard kept it hidden for ages in the WoW Arena System, but just recently a couple of months ago started to display it. After the battle finishes you get to see the MMR of each individual player (on both teams) and the MMR of each team. You also get to see how much MMR was gained or lost for each player and team as a result of the battle.
It hasn't really had any negative impact on the arena system either, so I wouldn't be suprised if Blizzard isn't at least considering displaying it in SC2.
A few months ago? More like almost 2 years ago
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I doubt Blizzard will ever post ELO because casuals will be upset seeing their ELO drop with inactivity, in addition to losses. Especially the people who like that losses are now hidden on profiles.
With the current points system inactivity will still lower your division rank, but you never lose points due to inactivity.
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On June 15 2011 12:04 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 11:37 PeggyHill wrote:On June 15 2011 11:22 piegasm wrote:On June 15 2011 11:10 shockaslim wrote:
It makes too much sense so Blizzard doesn't want to do it.
Seriously though. There are too many useless stats in this game and not enough useful ones. Can't see your losses unless you are in Masters, can't see how close you are to a promotion or demotion, and the after game breakdown could be a bit more detailed.
In Halo, you can at least gauge your leveling, and your skill did have a high correlation with what rank you were. But in this game they don't allow it. Your losses are roughly equal to your wins. You're close to a promotion when you beat a lot of people in higher leagues than you. You're close to a demotion when you lose to people in leagues lower than you. You can't see your real MMR because if people knew exactly how it worked, they'd exploit it. How could this be exploited though? The only mechanism for changing MMR is winning/losing. How would this change at all if the number could be seen? The stats in general on Bnet are lacking. I want to see win/loss, just give me an option to hide it if you are afraid of people pussying out because of it. I want to see how many zealots I've built throughout my entire SC2 career, how many kills I've gotten. I want to see what unit got the most kills in the game I just played, highlighting hero DT's that get 22 kills. Halo 3 has a very detailled stats system, tracking number of kills, double kills etc, all accessible online. There is no reason why Blizzard couldn't implement this apart from their own laziness. Obviously I don't know how it could be exploited because I don't know how it works. I just know that is the reasoning behind not showing it. Why do you need to see win/loss? You see wins, therefore you know your losses to within a small hand full. The ratio is ~50%. 50% = 50% regardless of whether you arrived at that percentage by winning 50 games out of 100 or 500 games out of 1000. Disabusing people of the notion that win/loss has any meaning at all is nothing but a good thing. If it has the side effect of helping casuals stay motivated to keep playing then that's even better.
So you are just following the party line RE potential exploitation of the MMR system. Fact is, knowledge of the number wouldn't give anyone any more capability to change it, beyond winning games. That is a fact.
I want to see win/loss because it is a stat I want to see. It's a common statistic used throughout every form of competition known to man.
It is important to note that there is a difference between win/loss meaning a player is good or not, and that win/loss has no meaning at all. The difference is subtle, and no doubt lost on many people.
There is absolutely no reason NOT to give a player as many stats as possible, IF there is the option to hide these if someone wishes. In fact I'd argue that the lack of a win/loss turns off more gamers than the lack of it encourages newbies.
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An alternative to displaying the MMR openly may be to give a proxy measure to encourage people. I think we can all agree that the leagues are quite broad measures of skill (eg low diamond to high diamond). So it could be possible to tell a player by way of a stat or in the post match screen whether their opponent is high/low/medium diamond, and therein whether they are close to demotion/promotion.
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just to go back to the op, there isn't anything screwy about the mmr system, while it same seem confusing on the surface there are HIGHLY detailed explainions of how it works if you serach tl
the 'screwy' part is the non-intuitive behavior based on on the hidden mmr. You can't take someone's league as the be all end all of there skill level relative to you, and until you've enough games your op will always be shown as favored as system is getting your points closer to your mmr
edit - to add, I agree I would like to see my mmr, I also think win loses should be shown, we'll get there eventually.
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please stop making these threads people. blizzard will never reveal those numbers.
never ever. it wont happen.
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If you are bad now you will never be good if you don't just play alot and apply your mind to find out what you are doing wrong in every aspect of the game and how to change it to what you should be doing. That being said nobody but noobs give a damn about the ladder ranking and system...being in grandmasters on NA server atleast means close to nothing so everything else is just whatever. Just try to get better.
If you are not in masters you are bad and need to work on so many things to improve why even think of this silly stuff. You can't take one ladder game you play with a random person as a measure of skill anyways especially on such low levels were people make many mistakes and don't play regularly so they have inconsistent performances. If you want to know how good you are find out what you should be doing when you play then compare it to what you actually do. You should know if you are playing well or not and if you are improving your mechanics .
I think so anyway...oh wells
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Its a conspiracy to keep information from the masses.
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The MMR is hidden. Your ladder rating means nothing unless you're in grandmaster and even then there is evidence to suggest that a player with lower MMR in GM can be higher on the ladder rating in grandmaster due to the way the bonus pool works.
examples: I'm 1400 masters and I play vs GM players and 1000+ masters players, but my girlfriend plays against high diamond to high masters and she's 850 masters. The day she got promoted to diamond she was playing vs masters players which meant her ELO was at a level of masters, but there was no room in a league for her so it didn't put her into one right away.
Essentially ladder has no meaning which is fine with me. It follows blizzards model of having 100% useless ladders in every game they make. It's a small price to pay, however, seeing as blizzard makes the best games in the business.
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Global chess players know their ELO rating, why can't starcraft players?
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I wouldn't mind the MMR being displayed, but I can't really complain about the current ladder system.
I love the current system. It matches you against someone with comparable skill right away and brainlessly. If you tried to smurf, you'd only be doing it for a while since your MMR would skyrocket if you were really good. Also, would you guys want to go back to SC1 and scroll through "[D]+ (Map)" in games until you find opponents? That alone can take almost as long as games themselves.
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On June 15 2011 14:11 Crumbs wrote:
Global chess players know their ELO rating, why can't starcraft players?
Have a look into this online more. I believe (or recall from reading about this) that the chess community had the same issues with people deliberately choosing their opponents in order to abuse the ELO rankings and artificially increase theirs. I believe this is exactly what Blizzard have cited as a reason for keeping them hidden
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On June 15 2011 14:21 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 14:11 Crumbs wrote:
Global chess players know their ELO rating, why can't starcraft players? Have a look into this online more. I believe (or recall from reading about this) that the chess community had the same issues with people deliberately choosing their opponents in order to abuse the ELO rankings and artificially increase theirs. I believe this is exactly what Blizzard have cited as a reason for keeping them hidden
But you can't deliberately choose your opponents on ladder, you might be able to snipe someone, but even then that still requires luck.
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Personally I wish there was a slow gradual MMR decay for inactivity, this serves 2 purposes. First is that people who don't belong in that league cannot stay in there forever just by playing one placement game (e.g. for a while over a third of the master league players in SEA server had like less than 5 games played).
Secondly, for people who've taken a break from playing, a master league player who's taken say two months off, does he really deserve/want to play against other high caliber opponents? Just because he was good two months ago doesn't mean much - he could be in for an unnecessarily long brutal MMR adjustment period (ie losing streak before finding his appropriate level again, which of course is very frustrating).
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On June 15 2011 11:18 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 10:55 ClysmiC wrote:
I never really liked iCCup's system, as 90% of players stayed in D or D+ so it was really hard to gauge how good they were. I think Blizzard's current system isn't too bad, but I guess every ladder system is going to have flaws. O_O what? If 90% of the players were stuck in D or D+ then that is their skill ranking. If you could get to B+ you were good, you could not get to B+ by just cheesing or all inning every game which was awesome. I don't even think you could really get past C+ with pure cheese but could be wrong ^^. I do wish thats how blizzard did it even though it wont' ever happen as it could be frustrating :D.
Octzerg! Ling all-ins straight to A- (?).
More to the point, I'm not overly concerned about knowing my exact MMR. It would be nice, sure, bit meh.
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I always thought it was because they didn't want people figuring out the system and exploiting it. In World of Warcraft I know that they had a lot of problems with people cheating the arena system. I guess they don't hide it now though? Not sure about that, haven't played in 2 years... Back when I played I remember it worked where you had a visible rating and a hidden MMR rating so it was almost the same as how sc2 works
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so as show win/lost in diamond, share replay on bnet, real chat channel, watch replay together, stop the limit reach kept showing, able to see others profile on bnet without lag, multiple region access with one client, tournament feature, clan tag feature, multiple name changing and hide BO on bnet.
Yeah, it's too much to ask for.
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On June 15 2011 12:04 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 11:37 PeggyHill wrote:On June 15 2011 11:22 piegasm wrote:On June 15 2011 11:10 shockaslim wrote:
It makes too much sense so Blizzard doesn't want to do it.
Seriously though. There are too many useless stats in this game and not enough useful ones. Can't see your losses unless you are in Masters, can't see how close you are to a promotion or demotion, and the after game breakdown could be a bit more detailed.
In Halo, you can at least gauge your leveling, and your skill did have a high correlation with what rank you were. But in this game they don't allow it. Your losses are roughly equal to your wins. You're close to a promotion when you beat a lot of people in higher leagues than you. You're close to a demotion when you lose to people in leagues lower than you. You can't see your real MMR because if people knew exactly how it worked, they'd exploit it. How could this be exploited though? The only mechanism for changing MMR is winning/losing. How would this change at all if the number could be seen? The stats in general on Bnet are lacking. I want to see win/loss, just give me an option to hide it if you are afraid of people pussying out because of it. I want to see how many zealots I've built throughout my entire SC2 career, how many kills I've gotten. I want to see what unit got the most kills in the game I just played, highlighting hero DT's that get 22 kills. Halo 3 has a very detailled stats system, tracking number of kills, double kills etc, all accessible online. There is no reason why Blizzard couldn't implement this apart from their own laziness. Obviously I don't know how it could be exploited because I don't know how it works. I just know that is the reasoning behind not showing it. Why do you need to see win/loss? You see wins, therefore you know your losses to within a small hand full. The ratio is ~50%. 50% = 50% regardless of whether you arrived at that percentage by winning 50 games out of 100 or 500 games out of 1000. Disabusing people of the notion that win/loss has any meaning at all is nothing but a good thing. If it has the side effect of helping casuals stay motivated to keep playing then that's even better.
Your win/loss is not necessarily 50%. The system tries to get you close to 50%, but it doesnt always do this. I am in diamond and I usually am closer to 60%... I just dont play enough for it to rank me up. At the end of Season 1 I was at a roughly 65% win/loss rate after like 80 games or something.
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EPT
