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On July 24 2011 02:35 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:26 thepeonwhocould wrote:
I hate this whole system of having a "hidden mmr" and a "visible rank".
So we've got hidden MMR which is
-The most accurate statistic to show how good you are as a player
And you visible rank which is
-A less accurate statistic to show how good you are as a player
Just get it over with and show us our damn MMR, since that is actually what tells us how good we are.
Does blizzard have any idea how frustrating it is to be a diamond player, being matched against masters players, being favored against them, winning 60% of the time against them, yet I am in diamond and they are in masters? It's just not fair.
I hate how there are diamond players who are actually considered better than masters players by blizzards OWN MATCHMAKING SYSTEM. And yet their visible rating is lower than those masters players! It's just silly. It's almost like blizzard thinks people are scared to see how good/bad they actually are.
At the very least, we should be able to see our MMR somewhere else. I don't care if you make it a little difficult to find it, just give us the option to view it. That way bronze/silver etc players who are scared of how bad they really are won't know about it. 90% of you all are such a whiny bunch. You know nothing about the system and just make wild assumptions based on biased hate of other BNet features. MMR is NOT an accurate measure of skill. If you saw it, you'd just turn around and post about how MMR is so useless because it changes so drastically (and probably something along the lines of "Blizzard sucks, I rule!"). Basically, MMR is so filled with noise that it is actually terrible in ranking people into exact spots. Because of this volatility and noise, however, it can place you against proper opponents quickly without having to worry if you're actually ranked in the exact correct position. Match Making Rating spells out entirely what it is and does.
Sorry but this is just false when you look at Street Fighter or ICCUP rankings.
When I am a lower ranked player, I know I am going to have to try a lot harder to get my win. Likewise I can relax a bit when I'm vsing lower ranked players. On ICCUP there is a very noticeable gap between C- and C+ even, its much bigger than the difference between top masters and diamond.
Favored vs UnFavored doesn't mean anything.
There will be times I will have an extremely easy time vs higher league players, and yet be playing toe to toe against lower league players.
Seeing Masters players smurf GM's is so ridiculous.
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They have a hidden mmr and its hidden because it would look really weird. This because of how fast it would change. Say you are 1550 and your hidden mmr is 1550. After 5 losses you play people of lower skill. So you would be 1500 but playing people 1300. It would be a large jump and it would look weird
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MMR is based on an ELO system that produces international Chess ratings,
which means that at the beginning your MMR WILL fluctuate wildly but the more games you play
the more stable it will become. Chess rating has been around for ~ 60 years and its
accepted internationally. It really motivates competitive play because its such a reliable reflection of skill. In chess I know that if I attain a rating of 2000 everyone will respect that because ratings are very reliable predictors of relative strength. Whereas on Bnet if I attain top 5 in diamond people won't be impressed because top 5 in diamond can mean so many things. It could mean you are on par with a lot of high ranked gold players! ahhh!
To all the people who are trying to defend Blizzard here: we aren't hating on Blizzard or anything like that. But it does seem like a good majority of the community would like to have an accurate indicator of skill instead of this ambigious system. It IS possible to do. The majority DO want it. So we are voicing our opinions about it. What's so wrong with that huh?
However if we want to get anywhere with our wish we need to be more organized. We need to start a petition and in a well mannered and constructive way try to dialogue with Blizz about having them either show the hidden ratign system as is, or create a new one where you can get a real and accurate sense of where you stand in the grand scheme of things. I would do it but I have allergies and I'm too damn lazy
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yes, it is too much to ask.
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On July 24 2011 03:54 Denizen[9] wrote:
They have a hidden mmr and its hidden because it would look really weird. This because of how fast it would change. Say you are 1550 and your hidden mmr is 1550. After 5 losses you play people of lower skill. So you would be 1500 but playing people 1300. It would be a large jump and it would look weird
You are just making things up. If MMR was so disconnected from your points as you say, a 5 loss streak would make you became favored in every match, because points are awarded by comparing your points to your opponents MMR. That just doesn't happen. This means that MMR doesn't move much faster than your points do.
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mmr is hidden because blizz doesnt want hackers to know how it works
MMR is effective because guess what, the good players are playing good players, and the sucks are playing sucks.
you complaining that you are struggling against plats but easily beating masters?? well guess what, you are playing against the plats that are improving and you are playing against the few masters that got there originally based on luck placing but they will drop out soon
i dont see how people here are saying the MMR system need to be improved. why? how exactly can it be improved??? what exactly is wrong with it???
are you mad that your playing people that are way better than you?? well you must be improving so the system makes you fight better people since your mmr is getting higher
are you mad that your playing people that suck compared to you?? well its probably because you lost 5 games recently and your mmr is going under. if you want to not play people who suck, then win 15 games in a row and you will be facing super good people fast. and if you lose one of those 15 games i guess your not as good as you thought you were
if you are diamond win 15 games in a row, you will be placed against top grandmasters pretty soon.
if you are grandmasters and lose 30 games in a row chances are you will be placed against bronzies if it keeps up
what are people complaining about when it comes to mmr? i just dont see the point of any of your arguments
i personally dont care about leagues at all. i just care about my skill. if i have a bronze account but im super skilled and fighting and beating grandmasters every game, then i would be happy, because all i care about is skill and if i become super good then i can win tournaments. i dont care about if im bronze or not
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On July 24 2011 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:35 aksfjh wrote:On July 24 2011 00:26 thepeonwhocould wrote:
I hate this whole system of having a "hidden mmr" and a "visible rank".
So we've got hidden MMR which is
-The most accurate statistic to show how good you are as a player
And you visible rank which is
-A less accurate statistic to show how good you are as a player
Just get it over with and show us our damn MMR, since that is actually what tells us how good we are.
Does blizzard have any idea how frustrating it is to be a diamond player, being matched against masters players, being favored against them, winning 60% of the time against them, yet I am in diamond and they are in masters? It's just not fair.
I hate how there are diamond players who are actually considered better than masters players by blizzards OWN MATCHMAKING SYSTEM. And yet their visible rating is lower than those masters players! It's just silly. It's almost like blizzard thinks people are scared to see how good/bad they actually are.
At the very least, we should be able to see our MMR somewhere else. I don't care if you make it a little difficult to find it, just give us the option to view it. That way bronze/silver etc players who are scared of how bad they really are won't know about it. 90% of you all are such a whiny bunch. You know nothing about the system and just make wild assumptions based on biased hate of other BNet features. MMR is NOT an accurate measure of skill. If you saw it, you'd just turn around and post about how MMR is so useless because it changes so drastically (and probably something along the lines of "Blizzard sucks, I rule!"). Basically, MMR is so filled with noise that it is actually terrible in ranking people into exact spots. Because of this volatility and noise, however, it can place you against proper opponents quickly without having to worry if you're actually ranked in the exact correct position. Match Making Rating spells out entirely what it is and does. Sorry but this is just false when you look at Street Fighter or ICCUP rankings. When I am a lower ranked player, I know I am going to have to try a lot harder to get my win. Likewise I can relax a bit when I'm vsing lower ranked players. On ICCUP there is a very noticeable gap between C- and C+ even, its much bigger than the difference between top masters and diamond. Favored vs UnFavored doesn't mean anything. There will be times I will have an extremely easy time vs higher league players, and yet be playing toe to toe against lower league players. Seeing Masters players smurf GM's is so ridiculous.
Doesn't this exactly prove the guy's point? He's saying the MMR is very volatile and full of noise.
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I started to continue the argument here..then decided it was pointless.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2878490167
So I posted it an even more pointless spot then here...why? Because I could mostly. Do I think my suggestion is perfect? no...but it would be a hell of a lot better then the stupid ass system we have now of "guess your rank".
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People are worrying too much over their ranks. You already get to know which league you are in, but now you want to know your MMR? Blizzard removed the losses column from leagues below masters for a reason, and MMR is even more specific than this. Half of the time, the favored and opponent favored system doesn't even work. I've had games where it first said opponent was favored, then when I won it said I was favored and recieved very few points. MMR might be useful for the very top leagues, but even then, its just a number. People have beaten favored and slightly favored MMR's all the time, MMR is not important at all.
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The reasoning is pretty simple Blizzard want to keep his playerbase.
For this people want to have the feel "improving" to keep adicted to the game, this is done by Blizzard with seemingly increasing (skill) points.
That the whole reason that bonus pool exists.
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Not everyone wants the same thing from a matchmaking/ladder system.
Some players + Show Spoiler +On July 24 2011 02:03 thepeonwhocould wrote:Thats the other problem I have with this system, you never know what you need to do in order to get promoted. + Show Spoiler + sure you do, you just never know how close you are In Iccup, or virtually any other sort of ladder/ranking system, you could sit there and say "If I win my next 2 games, I'm going to get promoted". Theres no such feature in SC2's ladder system. If you beat that masters player, will you get promoted? Who knows? Not the players! Blizzard knows though! If blizzards system cannot display some sort of tangible goal for a player in order for them to get promoted, that's just a bad ladder system.
want an "advancement" system. They want grind "levels" to get to the top. They don't care who they are matched against as long as the system rewards them accurately for performance (+/- big points for beating a higher ranked opponent or losing to a lower ranked one, small point changes for playing similarly ranked opponents).
Other people want a system that lets them play against similarly skilled players where they have a good (~50) chance to win. IMO b.net 2.0 does this pretty well (once a player has played ~10 matches at a consistent level).
Maybe they could add more leagues so you have a better idea of how well (or poorly) you're doing. Or have an indicator if you're being matched up against better or worse opponents (of course, that would only really have any use in 10-15 game increments and you can probably make assumptions if you've had a long streak of wins or losses).
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On July 24 2011 05:43 freetgy wrote:
The reasoning is pretty simple Blizzard want to keep his playerbase.
For this people want to have the feel "improving" to keep adicted to the game, this is done by Blizzard with seemingly increasing (skill) points.
That the whole reason that bonus pool exists.
this can't be pointed out too much.
the whole ladder system is designed to make and keep the players playing, not to show them how good they are. they want to make us believe we are all heroes if we ladder enough.
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On July 24 2011 05:04 roymarthyup wrote:
mmr is hidden because blizz doesnt want hackers to know how it works
MMR is effective because guess what, the good players are playing good players, and the sucks are playing sucks.
you complaining that you are struggling against plats but easily beating masters?? well guess what, you are playing against the plats that are improving and you are playing against the few masters that got there originally based on luck placing but they will drop out soon
i dont see how people here are saying the MMR system need to be improved. why? how exactly can it be improved??? what exactly is wrong with it???
are you mad that your playing people that are way better than you?? well you must be improving so the system makes you fight better people since your mmr is getting higher
are you mad that your playing people that suck compared to you?? well its probably because you lost 5 games recently and your mmr is going under. if you want to not play people who suck, then win 15 games in a row and you will be facing super good people fast. and if you lose one of those 15 games i guess your not as good as you thought you were
if you are diamond win 15 games in a row, you will be placed against top grandmasters pretty soon.
if you are grandmasters and lose 30 games in a row chances are you will be placed against bronzies if it keeps up
what are people complaining about when it comes to mmr? i just dont see the point of any of your arguments
i personally dont care about leagues at all. i just care about my skill. if i have a bronze account but im super skilled and fighting and beating grandmasters every game, then i would be happy, because all i care about is skill and if i become super good then i can win tournaments. i dont care about if im bronze or not
WTF? They dont want to know how it works?! Everyone already knows how it "works" we just want to be able to see it... And so what if they knew how it works what exactly would they do about it...?
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What is the problem with a "noisy" "fluctuating" MMR in relation to ladder ranking? Isn't that how a true ladder should work? If someone 5 "steps" below you defeats you, he moves ahead of you? This comes back to my opening point on page 8. I am beating players that are leaps and bounds ahead of me in terms of ranking, just to climb "1 step" on this ladder, to climb past a person that is a lot worse than ME (based on his match history he is facing worse opponents than I)
(We've already come to the conclusion Blizzard cares about scared-phags, so inflates "points").
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well i guess people would probably hate to see the MMR but rather want something nicely pit excluding all leagues. So they could see a that bronce guy has way more points then even those gold people.
But i guess they would be unhappy with the MMR, that drops around 25% just because you lost 5 times in a row ^.^. And of course someone will stop playing after a super lucky 10 wins in a row, because their points increased by 50%.
Maybe its just me, but after loosing 5 games in a row, i play opponents suddenly i cannot lose against ... , maybe the bnet can't place me still after 500 games ^^; . But that made me belief the mmr jumps like crazy, well might only be a coincidence.
Don't really think its because of the evil hackers and more because it would upset alot of people hehe (especially the once that are so desperate to see it, sorry ^^; )
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I've always thought that a reasonable compromise would be to only show players their season-ending MMR at the end of each season. That way players can have a reasonable milestone of how they're progressing across seasons, and there's no chance of people "exploiting" MMR. Thoughts?
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On July 23 2011 19:23 CellTech wrote:Even if Blizzard worked something like this into your [private] Profile it would be awesome ![[image loading]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/Mounir/ranking.gif) Would show you roughly where you were in terms of promotion
omg, that would really make my day if they could implement something like that!
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On July 24 2011 06:32 CellTech wrote:
What is the problem with a "noisy" "fluctuating" MMR in relation to ladder ranking? Isn't that how a true ladder should work? If someone 5 "steps" below you defeats you, he moves ahead of you? This comes back to my opening point on page 8. I am beating players that are leaps and bounds ahead of me in terms of ranking, just to climb "1 step" on this ladder, to climb past a person that is a lot worse than ME (based on his match history he is facing worse opponents than I)
(We've already come to the conclusion Blizzard cares about scared-phags, so inflates "points").
Except "5 steps" in this case could mean 5000 or 10000. The point system provides a level of stability that MMR doesn't. Most would be pretty mad if they lost 10 games and suddenly their MMR seemed close to the threshold of the league below them. It doesn't demote them any time soon because it requires a degree of certainty to do so, but simply knowing that after a bad day, it LOOKS like you'll be demoted can be paralyzing. Similarly, when people shoot their MMR above the next tier, but there isn't enough certainty to be promoted yet, that's likely to be equally frustrating. Right now, the obfuscation at least keeps people guessing if they're REALLY at the point of promotion, or just shy of it.
In your case, work harder. Elo systems are much more difficult to climb than Blizzard ladder, but you can't even seem to work hard enough at that. Chances are, those people at the top have, and still are, playing more games than you. You can't expect to get to the top with a half-assed attitude about how you're "better than others" by default.
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Ahhh.. as if the MMR God's answered me. I clicked 'Find Match' and who else does it put me against but the guy atop my division (I am rank 26th at this point, he is ranked 1st) I proceed to slaughter him.
My conclusion:
I am better than him, the ladder "says" he is a lot better than me.
This is the problem.
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On July 24 2011 14:09 CellTech wrote:
Ahhh.. as if the MMR God's answered me. I clicked 'Find Match' and who else does it put me against but the guy atop my division (I am rank 26th at this point, he is ranked 1st) I proceed to slaughter him.
My conclusion:
I am better than him, the ladder "says" he is a lot better than me.
This is the problem.
wtf how dumb are you? Just because you 'slaughter' him doesn't mean he is worse then you rofl.
There are a ton of factors that could of help in your win:
He was trying a new build
He was play his off-race
He was drunk
That is 3 of the millions of reasons why you could have beat him, winning vs rank 1 and saying you're better is just ridiculous especially if you've both won the same amount of games.
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EPT
