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Ergonomic devices might help a bit, but they are far from an answer/solution to your problems.
Take an example of someone who decides they want to be a competitive runner. The general idea is that to be good at running, you need to run a lot. So, this person starts running long distance every day, and soon enough he'll be hampered by knee pain, shin splints, back stiffness, etc. So he goes to the doctor, who tells him he needs to rest until the pain goes away. A month later, this guy is feeling much better, so he decides to resume his training regime. Maybe he'll use some ergonomic devices like orthotics or a patellar strap or fancy shoes. However, he will still eventually get injured because he hasn't addressed the fundamental issues of conditioning and movement mechanics.
1. Conditioning - experienced athletes have a structured amount of training volume and intensity, where they progressively increase the amount of workload they subject their bodies to. The adaptation of joints to handle loads is a lot slower than rate of strength gain in the muscles, so it's important for an athlete to develop their body steadily but also to let it recuperate properly using planned periods of lower activity.
2. Movement mechanics - this is how you move. In the case of the runner, it can mean how their foot strikes the ground, the relative contribution of knee/hip extension, rhythm, etc. Poor mechanics on the small scale here will magnify itself by the massive number of repetitions that a professional training rigorously will perform. So, it is very important to have efficient mechanics. Some thoughts
- sometimes actions where you strain to reach with a finger or by bending your wrist laterally (radial/ulnar deviation) can be alleviated shifting your whole arm. This offloads some load to the arm, while your wrist/fingers which are already heavily stressed remain in a neutral position.
- relaxation while moving quickly or while stressed is important. When we want precision/control in our movement, there is a tendency to grip tightly which hampers quickness and endurance. You see this a lot in lower level athletes, who can be clunky in their movement. In contrast, many top athletes have a gracefulness or fluidity + explosiveness that comes from being relaxed and then activating only the fewest motor units as needed to execute an action.
- with the human body, moving the hands in straight lines is actually harder than moving in arcs. This is because you have to combine the movement at 2 or more joints to cancel out resulting in a straight path. This is something to consider when it comes to mouse control.
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Whenever my wrists are giving me pain I do ice baths. Fill up a sink or tub with ice (I prefer frozen water bottles or just ice packs so I can reuse them instead of wasting a bunch of ice). Dunk your arm in the water for 10 to 15 seconds. Leave and come back in 10 or 15 min and repeat. Do this for an hour or two each day. My pain went away. I'm sure ergonomics will definitely help but I think the reduction in swelling/tension in your arms will get your wrists to a place where the better ergonomics prevents further injury.
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Those of you young guns with terrible posture please please listen to this stuff. Im 26 been gaming forever and i have terrible pains fairly often and i don't have the worst posture. My wrists to my elbows have bad arthritis.2-4 times a week i take tylenol or advil or something more when its raining. I can't imagine how its going to be when im 50. when i was 16 and younger i didnt care at all about this ergonomic crap and im already paying for it. Its no joke .
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The kinesis keyboard + good sitting position has worked for me and many of my friends with wrist problems it's fairly expensive and hard to get accostumed to though. Stretching and all that stuff is really useless as a way to fix the problem -- in fact it might actually make it worse many a time -- as you are only dealing with the symptoms rather than the root of the problem.
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On June 11 2011 02:25 DusTerr wrote:as someone who worked in a relay call center + Show Spoiler +(typing all day and getting rated on my ergonomics monthly - the company really didn't want to pay if any of us complained of RSI/CTS etc) and at a 911 call center working 12h shifts I'd recommend this posturetry to keep your shoulders relaxed, arms hanging, elbows at 90*, forearms parallel to the floor and thighs (this puts your desk surface right above your lap) and most importantly... your wrists should not be bent (do not prop up the back of your keyboard so it angles toward you). Keep the top of your monitor just above eye level (slightly higher if it's larger than 20"). Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 01:57 prodigysc2 wrote:
is it okay to not even rest my keyboard hand at all when typing? what if i kept my elbow and forearm off my arm rest from my chair and kept my wrist off the table so my hand is floating above my keyboard while typing. is this okay? better? worse? I was always told never to rest my wrists or elbows while typing. i would think you're better off letting your hand "hang" naturally over your keyboard and mouse (again, this really requires you to have your desk at the right height).
I'm not someone who's had a job like that, but I really agree with this. Personally I have a custom setup for my keyboard where it's at a negative angle. As far as I understand, that is what is optimal, not a positive or level angle.
I like to have my keyboard also quite low, but it' really hard or impossible with my current furniture. I like to have the mouse at about the same height as the keyboard. I've tried having the mouse at a negative angle as well, but obviously it was rather troublesome— any time i took my hand off the mouse, the cursor would fly to the top of the screen (because the mouse would move to the top of the pad until something stopped it), which was especially problematic in starcraft 2 where that causes the screen to scroll to the top of the map, hence this is not really recommended unless you have some sort of crazy suspension for the mouse to prevent that.
When it comes to seating, I personally use a cheap kneeling chair which probably isn't that great (compared to an expensive one), but I think that it strengthens my spine still.
Here's a summary of some seating methods:
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergonomics/sitting/sitting_alternative.html#_1_2
I find using a wrist rest is very important for mouse use— at one point I somehow didn't use any, but then I started to use a piece of soft foam that was nice, before using a gel wrist rest, which I had previously, didn't think I'd like, but got used to it.
What I recommend most is a keyboard or keyboard&mouse tray that goes under a desktop and can slope the keyboard at a negative angle (while keeping the mouse rather level). Space for a wrist rest for the keyboard would be useful too, but I don't think is really needed.
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I've had some dull pains in my elbow and wrist, and about a week ago my "mouse wrist" was swollen and hurt quite a bit for a few days, so I know where you're coming from. There's a lot of varying advice and, of course, lots of products designed to cash in on these problems. Here are some things I learned in trying to avoid causing pain in my arm:
- If it hurts, rest it. Don't "baby it" (as in don't not move or use it ever) because it will probably just get stiff and hurt more when you move it.
- If you use a relatively high sensitivity, this could be causing your wrist pain. I started using very low sensitivity in both StarCraft and Quake for this reason. It helps to keep your arm moving around - it keeps your hand warm, and you don't want it to stay tense in relatively the same position.
- If you spam-click a lot, you may as well just not do that. It's just causing unnecessary tension.
- Make sure your armrest isn't putting pressure on any part of your forearm as this can lessen blood flow. Only have your elbow on your armrest.
- Maybe the most important: We aren't obligated to play computer games all day without pain. Our bodies aren't made for StarCraft. There doesn't have to be a magical solution. Take breaks between games, even if it's just a couple of minutes. I hope you're not playing for basically 6 hours straight. If you are, then I think you should consider taking at least an hour break in between.
- If you insist on playing as a job, then you may have to accept that you're going to need to be doing some running and other exercise (sorry if I'm assuming wrong here, I just don't believe you mentioned that you do). I doubt many pro SC2 players will tell you they don't do some sort of workout quite often. Your health comes first.
That's my advice as a fellow competitor who has played a lot of games for a long time. I hope it helps. Take care of yourself.
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is it okay to not even rest my keyboard hand at all when typing? what if i kept my elbow and forearm off my arm rest from my chair and kept my wrist off the table so my hand is floating above my keyboard while typing. is this okay? better? worse?
It's ok, since there's even less pressure points you won't hurt your wrists, at least not in the same way as you may have been doing previously. You'll just get tired a little more easily. If you think about it though, pianists can play for hours and their arms are floating all the time.
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I always have my laptop and mouse about a foot away from the edge of the desk and rest my elbows on it. (long arms) Also i rest my wrist on the edge of my laptop. My mouse hand is pivoting on my elbow tho.
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On June 11 2011 03:35 byce wrote:I've had some dull pains in my elbow and wrist, and about a week ago my "mouse wrist" was swollen and hurt quite a bit for a few days. I guess this was a tendon problem (I didn't go to a doctor because it healed in less than a week). There's a lot of varying advice and, of course, lots of products designed to cash in on these problems. I think the only things that are for sure are: - If it hurts, rest it. Don't "baby it" (as in don't not move or use it ever) because it will probably just get stiff and hurt more when you move it.
- If you use a relatively high sensitivity, this could be causing your wrist pain. I started using very low sensitivity in both StarCraft and Quake for this reason. It helps to keep your arm moving around - it keeps your hand warm, and you don't want it to stay tense in relatively the same position.
- If you spam-click a lot, you may as well just not do that. It's just causing unnecessary tension.
- Make sure your armrest isn't putting pressure on any part of your forearm as this can lessen blood flow. Only have your elbow on your armrest.
- Maybe the most important: We aren't obligated to play computer games all day without pain. Our bodies aren't made for StarCraft. There doesn't have to be a magical solution. Take breaks between games, even if it's just a couple of minutes. I hope you're not playing for basically 6 hours straight. If you are, then I think you should consider taking at least an hour break in between.
- If you insist on playing as a job, then you may have to accept that you're going to need to be doing some running and other exercise (sorry if I'm assuming wrong here, I just don't believe you mentioned that you do). I doubt many pro SC2 players will tell you they don't do some sort of workout quite often. Your health comes first.
That's my advice as a fellow competitor who has played a lot of games for a long time. I hope it helps. Take care of yourself.
It really baffles me how little the public knows who the musculoskeletal experts are out there.
You have 2 professions: orthopedist and chiropractors.
Sir the pain you are describing in your elbow & wrist, 9/10 times that would be radial misalignment. Goto a chiropractor or orthopedist and get that baby popped back in. Yes the pain may subside, but it may also mean you are developing chronic inflammation with your muscles/connective tissues.
I see a lot of ignorance on this forum regarding chronic inflammation, it will come back to haunt you guys if you ignore it. Yes ergonomics are important, but them alone won't prevent future injuries like some of you believe.
If you have soft tissue problem, go see the soft tissue experts (synonymous with musculoskeletal problem) as described above. Don't be ignorant and continue going to MDs (who lacks knowledge in that department) or PTs. (who usually can't diagnose the problem) (and I am mentioning those 2 professions as it's very common for you guys to goto them and come back disappointed with the fact that they can't help you)
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Or instead of a chiropractor you can go to a REAL DOCTOR who works based on ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
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On June 11 2011 06:03 skindzer wrote:
Or instead of a chiropractor you can go to a REAL DOCTOR who works based on ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
I'm not even gonna waste my time explaining the facts, but Chiropractors are real doctors and their main treatments are have far more scientific studies to back up their efficacy than what MDs have for majority of their treatment modalities.
That's right. That means scientific evidence points to Chiropractic for what they do.
If you don't believe me, go out there and do research on Chiropractic and their efficacy - from scientific study point of view - if you have the academic background to enable you to do so.. that is.
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Sorry, I edited my post to remove the part where I guess what the problem is. I also worded it a little more carefully. I forgot people love to give their opinions even if it may derail the thread.
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EPT
