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hey guys, i have been experiencing some pretty brutal hand aches/wrist pain and forearm tightness in the past 3 months. i have been to the doctor and a physical therapist where they both said that i have extremely tight muscles and some soft tissue damage which is what is causing the pain. i took a month break from no playing and i was okay but when i returned to play the pain returned as well. as some of you know from reading my pro journey blog i am trying to play at the pro scene. i was playing 6 hours a day to try and hit grand master league and start competing in tournaments to get my name known. but i cannot play much because of my handicap. i have been stretching and working out more but i had some questions on my ergonomics.(my doctor and physical therapist didn't seem to know the right answer)
1) should i be using a gel wrist wrest while playing sc2? my apm is around 180 so i am typing a good amount in games)
2) should i be using a mini gel wrist wrest for my mouse hand? i use a razer deathadder and i am pretty hectic with my mouse mutli tasking)
3) should i be wresting my forearms/elbow area on my arm rest for my chair while playing?
4) my desk is 28 inches high(not including keyboard height). ground to the chair is 21 inches high. the ground to the chair arm rests where i rest my arms is 29 inches high. is this okay in terms of ergonomics?
thank you for any help. i appreciate it
thank you
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Nope
Nope
Arm rests are actually bad and can cause tendonitis.
This is the ideal position you want:
![[image loading]](http://www.tfportal.de/gfx/content/tf2/guidepics/pro_sniper__guide/hcgillust04.gif)
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oh okay thank you. well the guy in the picture above is using an arm rest. how do you keep your arms straight without an arm rest? also my legs are not very close to my keyboard. in the picture above his keyboard is only a little higher then his thighs. could that be causing some of my wrist pain?
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On June 10 2011 07:14 prodigysc2 wrote:
oh okay thank you. well the guy in the picture above is using an arm rest. how do you keep your arms straight without an arm rest?
I sit like that except I have some of my arm up on the desk too, maybe try that.
On June 10 2011 07:14 prodigysc2 wrote:
also my legs are not very close to my keyboard. in the picture above his keyboard is only a little higher then his thighs. could that be causing some of my wrist pain?
Possibly, you could be sitting to low/far away from your desk and causing extra stress.
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On June 10 2011 07:28 piskooooo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 07:14 prodigysc2 wrote:
oh okay thank you. well the guy in the picture above is using an arm rest. how do you keep your arms straight without an arm rest? I sit like that except I have some of my arm up on the desk too, maybe try that. Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 07:14 prodigysc2 wrote:
also my legs are not very close to my keyboard. in the picture above his keyboard is only a little higher then his thighs. could that be causing some of my wrist pain? Possibly, you could be sitting to low/far away from your desk and causing extra stress.
hmm okay ya i agree. i will put a giant pillow underneath me to fix it. thanks man
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do whatever feels ok for you. However, if you have any health problems (actually, even if you didnt) you might try get into yoga... try to seek information (yoga instructors, books, etc.) and -- apart from other benefits -- it could strengthen your muscles... the practicing is all connected.
GL
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Do strenghtening exercises for your back. The real posture problem is not in your wrists or arms but your back. Get a kinesis keyboard. If that doesn't help read John Sarno's book...if that doesn't help, stop playing SC2 or you'll risk to suffer chronic RSI pain for the rest of your life.
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On June 10 2011 07:43 s4life wrote:
Do strenghtening exercises for your back. The real posture problem is not in your wrists or arms but your back. Get a kinesis keyboard. If that doesn't help read John Sarno's book...if that doesn't help, stop playing SC2 or you'll risk to suffer chronic RSI pain for the rest of your life.
ya my chair sucks balls and it does put stress on my back. there is literally zero back support.
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I've actually had the same problem as you recently, although granted i play at a little bit of a lower level than you! The best thing that i find works for me is that i got a "memory pad" or whatever it is called, (it is basically one of the gel ones) wrist-rest for my keyboard and a smaller one for my mouse. It allows you to put the pressure on your tendons just below your wrist without actually causing tissue damage or even putting that much pressure on the tendons themselves
As for your chair, it's reccomended that if you can get your chain at an equal level to your desk, that is the best, becuase that allows you to wrest your elbow on your arm-rest of your chair while moving your mouse, which reduces what little strain that is on the tendons in your hand!
Hope this helps, and if you PM me i can go more in-depth or give you some links to some websites!
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The solution is not to buy stuff like fancy chairs or keyboards. You just have to take care of your body and do proper warm-ups and stretching before playing, and proper warm-down and stretching after playing.
I'm a musician and got tendinitis some time ago, many people in my situation go to meds or surgery , but doctors specialized in musicians will always recommend exercise and discipline.
Just look on the web and youtube for 4-5 different warm-up and stretching routines for tendons and you'll see the difference.
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Yeah for even for arm pain back posture is superimportant. You want to make sure that the top of your monitor is exactly at eye level when sitting down. For most desks this means that you need to elevate your monitor.
Another thing that I found really helpful is to set up my workstation in L shaped formation. So for example here at home I have a normal rectangular desk in front of me. Then I have a nightstand of equal height placed flush to the right of my chair at a 90 degree angle to the rectangular desk.
This way the nightstand supports my mouse arm's weight, and I can move my mouse using my elbow as a pivot point instead of my wrist (which really constricts the carpal tunnel).
Using vertical mice can help too. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any good vertical mice that have both 2k+ dpi and more than 3 mouse buttons + scroll. If you know of any please post =)
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On June 10 2011 08:24 kNightLite wrote:
Yeah for even for arm pain back posture is superimportant. You want to make sure that the top of your monitor is exactly at eye level when sitting down. For most desks this means that you need to elevate your monitor.
Another thing that I found really helpful is to set up my workstation in L shaped formation. So for example here at home I have a normal rectangular desk in front of me. Then I have a nightstand of equal height placed flush to the right of my chair at a 90 degree angle to the rectangular desk.
This way the nightstand supports my mouse arm's weight, and I can move my mouse using my elbow as a pivot point instead of my wrist (which really constricts the carpal tunnel).
Using vertical mice can help too. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any good vertical mice that have both 2k+ dpi and more than 3 mouse buttons + scroll. If you know of any please post =)
ah! that is a great idea! haha i need to try that out somehow. thanks guys for all your posts and suggestions. i appreciate it
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So I have 110% more death risk from how often i sit? Cool.
Pretty sure im the most unhealthy person in the world but not fat...
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Yeah this is a good point, its a common misconception that sitting straight is the ideal position, which is generally enforced through our schooling years. This is interesting, however, as I had previously thought the proper sitting angle was 110 degrees, not 135 degrees. Funny thing is that I naturally do sit at about 135 degrees, so no complaints here 
I also got wrist pain every now and then. I had pretty severe pain a few months back, so I really analyzed my workspace. I ended up raising my chair an inch, as it the arm rests weren't quite level with my desk. My wrists are feeling great.
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now I am scared because I don't sit anything like that T.T
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This is the optimal posture according to me, I base it on experience and not on facts:
Move your mouse and keyboard back, move closer to the desk. Your elbows should be at a 100/110 degree angle and land just before the edge of your desk, this means your entire forearms rests on your desk. Your forearm and elbow should do the work when moving your mouse, not your wrist.
Note that the posture for playing videogames and the posture of typing should be different. When you look at pictures of ergonomic positions you should keep in mind that they are optimized for typing, and not for playing.
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On June 10 2011 09:20 mevy wrote:
This is the optimal posture according to me, I base it on experience and not on facts:
Move your mouse and keyboard back, move closer to the desk. Your elbows should be at a 100/110 degree angle and land just before the edge of your desk, this means your entire forearms rests on your desk. Your forearm and elbow should do the work when moving your mouse, not your wrist.
Note that the posture for playing videogames and the posture of typing should be different. When you look at pictures of ergonomic positions you should keep in mind that they are optimized for typing, and not for playing.
Having your entire forearm on the desk forces you to either slouch forward or sit up straight. As shown above, this is bad for your back.
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The OP for that thread regarding RSI has some helpful information, especially the parts regarding stretching.
Ergonomics can be important, but usually they are not the main culprit when it comes to wrists.
Gel armrest can be helpful (but again, not gonna 'cure' ya single-handedly) (I'm talking about those gel forearm rests that comes as a set with mouse pad). Some ppl may say they can cause more stress on muscles/connective tissues, but unless you are one of the few in a million that uses a mouse with their forearms floating off the table (which wouldn't be recommended anyhow). If your forearm's gonna be touching something, might as well be something softer than the desk.
For your case though, sounds like you've got a chronic inflammation.
You are most likely to have what we call cross-fiber and scar tissue formation that would cause pain, decreased ROM (range of motion) and decreased circulation (bad).
I would suggest you consult with a sports chiropractor, preferably someone who does soft tissue work. (ART, Graston, FAKTR certified chiropractors are recommended)
Best way to search for them is either by referral (if you've got reliable source) or go online, search for those soft tissue treatment modalities and they will have a list of certified doctors. (hopefully there will be one in your area).
MDs and PTs are not the ones to go for such musculoskeletal condition, hope you take my advice to heart.
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And to answer some of your questions:
1 & 2 - Yes, as I wrote above, having something softer to rest your wrist on is better than hard wood/plastic of the desk. However, get ones where there isn't much friction - if they stick to your wrist/forearm, they may do more harm then good.
3 - I wouldn't recommend resting your elbow on your chair armrest, as that can put additional stretch and thus pressure on your forearm muscles and connective tissues.
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On June 10 2011 11:55 Angry_Fetus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 09:20 mevy wrote:
This is the optimal posture according to me, I base it on experience and not on facts:
Move your mouse and keyboard back, move closer to the desk. Your elbows should be at a 100/110 degree angle and land just before the edge of your desk, this means your entire forearms rests on your desk. Your forearm and elbow should do the work when moving your mouse, not your wrist.
Note that the posture for playing videogames and the posture of typing should be different. When you look at pictures of ergonomic positions you should keep in mind that they are optimized for typing, and not for playing. Having your entire forearm on the desk forces you to either slouch forward or sit up straight. As shown above, this is bad for your back.
Nope, something like this:
![[image loading]](http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman02/4df190652197f_qwe.png)
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How quickly did your pain come back? It might be a conditioned response.
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well after i took the break i returned feeling pretty good. so i played for about 6 days of 4-6 hours per day and on the 6th or 7th day i felt pain again.but its not like i didnt feel anything during days 1-5. i mean, i still felt pain when i returned on day 1 but i was able to stretch and play through it. its just on day 6 it got bad enough to make me stop. i feel like this whole thing is mental as well. i mean its been going on for over 3 months now non stop pain everyday no matter what im doing. so its like in my head and its frustrating because it is non stop.
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If you're resting your arms on your arm rest, yes you can get tendonitus. However, if you keep only your elbow on it (like if the arm rest curves downwards) and so only your elbow is contacting the arm rest and the ball of your hands on the desk, then you will be fine.
You have tendons in your arms where, when stressed, can lead to tendonitus and/or carpel tunnel syndrome etc.
And yes that picture in the first few posts is very good, just read what I just said about the arm rest.
Also, it's better if your keyboard/hands are lower than your elbow than above; you don't want blood flow to be cut off to your hands.
Edit:
You may also just be playing too intensely between matches. As in, you might be skipping a vital 1 minute between each game or something to relax. Make sure your hands don't feel fuzzy before starting a new game and that they're not cold. Make sure you stretch around etc., so blood can flow well. Make sure your wrist tendons don't feel tight.
If the pain persists, use some ice on your wrists (or wherever it hurts). If it hurts it might be tendonitus, which can be helped by ice (stop the swelling in tendons). You can also try warm/hot water to increase circulation and loosen up the tendons, but it has a small side effect of making the tendons possibly swell more or prevent them from "shrinking" (that's why you use cold water when something swells, instead of hot).
Another option is to get wrist splints especially if you want to become pro. It barely bothers me when I wear mine and tbh it looks cool and makes you feel more pro. Plus it makes it easier to play since the splint basically lets your hand rest in midair. There are a few different kinds, I suggest you get any besides the really big ones that extend down the arm or the small ones that are only like 2 inches. Get the kind where you can slide your hand through. Of these kinds there are also a couple different versions; I get the one where you can move your thumb freely, of course. But there is 1 of these versions where it's specifically made for trigger finger (your thumb feels tight and when you squeeze the flesh between your index and thumb you should be able to feel a thin, tight tendon); I think that's the one where the thumb is more restricted.
I taped a SlayerS logo over where my wrist splint's brand logo was. Gosu!
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On June 10 2011 16:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
If you're resting your arms on your arm rest, yes you can get tendonitus. However, if you keep only your elbow on it (like if the arm rest curves downwards) and so only your elbow is contacting the arm rest and the ball of your hands on the desk, then you will be fine.
You have tendons in your arms where, when stressed, can lead to tendonitus and/or carpel tunnel syndrome etc.
And yes that picture in the first few posts is very good, just read what I just said about the arm rest.
Also, it's better if your keyboard/hands are lower than your elbow than above; you don't want blood flow to be cut off to your hands.
Edit:
You may also just be playing too intensely between matches. As in, you might be skipping a vital 1 minute between each game or something to relax. Make sure your hands don't feel fuzzy before starting a new game and that they're not cold. Make sure you stretch around etc., so blood can flow well. Make sure your wrist tendons don't feel tight.
i rest my arms on my arm rest because it does not point down. my keyboard and mouse are on equal level with my elbow. often times my keyboard and mouse are actually higher. actually alot of times. and ya i feel like i tense up quite a bit in the mid game when my apm hits about 180ish and i start micro vs blings, mutas, etc... etc.. i try stretching 4-6 times a day but my wrists/forearms always seem tight. and when i wake up in the morning it is so bad i can barely bend my wrist when i make a fist and stretch the wrist up and down. it takes me like 20 minutes to loosten them up
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i dont know what to do. i have tried different heights, physical therapy, resting for a month, stretching, and excersisse. i have spent 400 dollars trying to fix this issue. and i am just frustrated. im trying to go pro and i know i have the skill to do this. i just cant seem to get enough practice in to progress. im going to mlg aneheim so i want to start training pain free.
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Yeah it's probably the height, be absolutely sure it's level and not the slightest bit higher. Especially since you play much more than me, the effect I expect would be even worse.
If you feel fuzziness during tenseness with high APM and such, then be careful it may lead to carpel tunnel syndrome (which isn't permanent unless if you ignore the pain for a foolishly long time).
Also, make sure your hands are positioned so that they rest only on 1 point (usually the ball of your hand) and not on two, especially your keyboard hand. It is tempting to do so but by resting it on both the ball and the "smaller ball", it puts pressure on the tissues between your wrist tendons, and that pressure leads to irritation AKA Carpel Tunnel Syndrome (The demon of gaming). Anyways, resting on 1 ball gives you more flexibility and range of movement. If you must rest your keyboard hand on both balls if you get tired, just be sure you're not doing it for too long each time.
About the arm rests; if your arms are perpendicular to the ground but your arm and not just the elbow is resting on the arm rests, you may need to adjust your chair or such so that it doesn't. Either have only the ball of your hand contact the desk or your elbow and balls. I don't rest my elbow and I don't get significantly tired.
Edit:
Practice with wrist splints after possibly resting a bit again (a few days, unless the pain is not significant); i hope it will help you a lot.
Edit2: I only have 1 wrist splint; for my keyboard hand. You really don't need it for the mouse hand.
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thanks yoshi. i really appreciate all this advice man. i cant thank you enough. i put a big pillow underneath me and when i rest my arms they dont even reach the arm rests because i am pretty high up and this allows me to not even have to rest my keyboard wrist while typing. i can float it above the keyboard all game. is this okay or bad? also do you think these wrist supports will be beneficial or detrimental to my problem? i have a pair of them on my desk. http://www.amazon.com/Ergodyne-400-Universal-Wrist-Black/dp/B0006GDAO6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1307690587&sr=8-3
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On June 10 2011 08:11 TheChostoProject wrote:
The solution is not to buy stuff like fancy chairs or keyboards. You just have to take care of your body and do proper warm-ups and stretching before playing, and proper warm-down and stretching after playing.
this. watch day 9' first mechanics daily.
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The pillow may or may not be bad... I'm not sure. Gel mouse pads are bad because they are too hard. Pillows on the other hand, are soft, and can't really put that much pressure since the contact is spread over a large area. To be safe though, I'd just rest the balls on the desk. Saves a pillow anyway. Again, just make sure you're not putting too much pressure on your tissues/tendons in your arm; high APM games with the pillows may hurt.
Yeah, those are the 2 inch ones I'm talking about. I haven't tried them but I can't imagine them being any more useful than the ones that are more like gloves. I guess people like that kind (the small ones) since it looks more natural and attracts less attention. The way a wrist splint works is that there's... a splint that will naturally contact the underside of your arm (a bit further towards your shoulders than your wrists) and the middle of your palm. What this does is spread out and relocate the pressure from the really sensitive tissue/tendon area which is right in the center of the underside of your arm right where your wrist is to a bit further up the arm. I'm not sure where your pain is, but if it's in the wrist, this will definitely help. If it's not there, it will help prevent future injury and pain in the wrist and will save energy anyways.
I found the one I use: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=futuro wrist brace&hl=en&rlz=1C1GPCK_enUS392&prmd=ivns&resnum=3&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1802&bih=950&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13932795825501406712&sa=X&ei=48zxTeLgHIucgQftk9zlCw&ved=0CIIBEPMCMAk
It's an easy strap on (velcro) and adjustable at 3 different points so it's really comfortable. The different straps also let you further relocate the pressure to different parts of your hand/wrist/arm immediately like if you are laddering hard and you find some point of your arm/wrist/hand hurting.
If you're not sure how it feels just go to a CVS or something and open up the boxes and try them; when I bought my first most of the boxes were opened up and they might have even been used and just returned xD.
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okay thanks yoshi! ill try getting a splint. i appreciate your help and time
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Working out will help, like some guy said strengthening your back and posture helps a ton. Head over to the health&fitness thread if you're interested, we have a couple physical therapists even if you aren't interested in exercising (although you should, obviously  )
I wouldn't recommend ergonomic keyboards simply because of their layouts, they don't seem conducive to upper level gaming. The angles of your keyboard/mouse and how far apart your hands are are very important as well. It took me like a month of trial and error to find the best positions for fps playing when I was doing that hardcore (like 8 hours a day -_-) Took a while because I use low sensitivity though.
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I think getting used to/using 'ergonomic' keyboards and mice would put you at a disadvantage for competitive play. I have no background in the field, so take my advice with a grain of salt. If you get used to an ergo KB/mouse, you won't be as able to use 'normal' ones as easily. Ergonomic keyboards, afaik, are made for typists who touchtype. I'm thinking of the kind that have split sections. An ergonomic mouse, however, is not as bad to go without. So long as the mouse you are using is relatively modern, it should be at least 5/10 or 6/10 ergonomically, rather than what i would put as a 7 or 8 for higher-end mice. I dunno what a 10 would be, but, I would rate This mouse as a 0 or 1.
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As an avid gamer and programmer that works from home, I am at my pc from approximately 7:30am till 11:30 pm.
I used to really struggle with back/neck/shoulder pain and also pain in my left (keyboard) hand either stiff fingers or sore/'clicky' wrist.
My initial solution was to stop playing games and get out more, which helped but not for long (started playing games again ). So a big birthday came along and my family (concerned for my health) bought me an ergonomic chair Ergohuman and I upgraded my monitor to a fully adjustable one so now I have a posture more or less identical to the picture on the first page of the thread (go me ).
So I still spend as long in front of the computer but I am very mobile, I will reposition my kb / mouse from the edge of the desk to 6-12 inches in, go from being upright to leaning back quite a lot (the adjustable tension back allows me to set the chair so I can lean at pretty much any angle and be comfortable and well supported). I go running 3-5 times a week which has helped alot with all aspects of my general health. I also stretch a little between games or when I change focus, and get up and walk around every hour or so.
The long and short of it is that whatever you are doing now is causing you great pain, and that pain is a signal that something is wrong in your setup and you are hurting yourself, possibly seriously.
No amount of ergonomic hardware will allow you to play indefinitely with no side effect so you will always need to balance the need for practise with the need to be able to play next week, but fixing the issues you have will greatly reduce the impact on your hands/wrists.
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is it okay to not even rest my keyboard hand at all when typing? what if i kept my elbow and forearm off my arm rest from my chair and kept my wrist off the table so my hand is floating above my keyboard while typing. is this okay? better? worse?
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On June 11 2011 01:56 MrCeeJ wrote:As an avid gamer and programmer that works from home, I am at my pc from approximately 7:30am till 11:30 pm. I used to really struggle with back/neck/shoulder pain and also pain in my left (keyboard) hand either stiff fingers or sore/'clicky' wrist. My initial solution was to stop playing games and get out more, which helped but not for long (started playing games again ). So a big birthday came along and my family (concerned for my health) bought me an ergonomic chair Ergohuman and I upgraded my monitor to a fully adjustable one so now I have a posture more or less identical to the picture on the first page of the thread (go me ). So I still spend as long in front of the computer but I am very mobile, I will reposition my kb / mouse from the edge of the desk to 6-12 inches in, go from being upright to leaning back quite a lot (the adjustable tension back allows me to set the chair so I can lean at pretty much any angle and be comfortable and well supported). I go running 3-5 times a week which has helped alot with all aspects of my general health. I also stretch a little between games or when I change focus, and get up and walk around every hour or so. The long and short of it is that whatever you are doing now is causing you great pain, and that pain is a signal that something is wrong in your setup and you are hurting yourself, possibly seriously. No amount of ergonomic hardware will allow you to play indefinitely with no side effect so you will always need to balance the need for practise with the need to be able to play next week, but fixing the issues you have will greatly reduce the impact on your hands/wrists.
dam that chair looks awesome! but its 600 bucks. sad face 
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slightly off topic but are you the mapmaker prodigy?
and my setup is like the picture the first responder posted. part of my arm is on the table while i play so my whole arm ends up being level.
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On June 11 2011 02:02 Kinshuk wrote:
slightly off topic but are you the mapmaker prodigy?
and my setup is like the picture the first responder posted. part of my arm is on the table while i play so my whole arm ends up being level.
no im not hha. just a high level master terran who is suffering from arm pain lol
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as someone who worked in a relay call center + Show Spoiler +(typing all day and getting rated on my ergonomics monthly - the company really didn't want to pay if any of us complained of RSI/CTS etc)
try to keep your shoulders relaxed, arms hanging, elbows at 90*, forearms parallel to the floor and thighs (this puts your desk surface right above your lap) and most importantly... your wrists should not be bent (do not prop up the back of your keyboard so it angles toward you). Keep the top of your monitor just above eye level (slightly higher if it's larger than 20").
Finally... take 30 seconds between each match to move around - even just standing up and stretching your arms at the ceiling.
On June 11 2011 01:57 prodigysc2 wrote:
is it okay to not even rest my keyboard hand at all when typing? what if i kept my elbow and forearm off my arm rest from my chair and kept my wrist off the table so my hand is floating above my keyboard while typing. is this okay? better? worse?
I was always told never to rest my wrists or elbows while typing. i would think you're better off letting your hand "hang" naturally over your keyboard and mouse (again, this really requires you to have your desk at the right height).
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Ergonomic devices might help a bit, but they are far from an answer/solution to your problems.
Take an example of someone who decides they want to be a competitive runner. The general idea is that to be good at running, you need to run a lot. So, this person starts running long distance every day, and soon enough he'll be hampered by knee pain, shin splints, back stiffness, etc. So he goes to the doctor, who tells him he needs to rest until the pain goes away. A month later, this guy is feeling much better, so he decides to resume his training regime. Maybe he'll use some ergonomic devices like orthotics or a patellar strap or fancy shoes. However, he will still eventually get injured because he hasn't addressed the fundamental issues of conditioning and movement mechanics.
1. Conditioning - experienced athletes have a structured amount of training volume and intensity, where they progressively increase the amount of workload they subject their bodies to. The adaptation of joints to handle loads is a lot slower than rate of strength gain in the muscles, so it's important for an athlete to develop their body steadily but also to let it recuperate properly using planned periods of lower activity.
2. Movement mechanics - this is how you move. In the case of the runner, it can mean how their foot strikes the ground, the relative contribution of knee/hip extension, rhythm, etc. Poor mechanics on the small scale here will magnify itself by the massive number of repetitions that a professional training rigorously will perform. So, it is very important to have efficient mechanics. Some thoughts
- sometimes actions where you strain to reach with a finger or by bending your wrist laterally (radial/ulnar deviation) can be alleviated shifting your whole arm. This offloads some load to the arm, while your wrist/fingers which are already heavily stressed remain in a neutral position.
- relaxation while moving quickly or while stressed is important. When we want precision/control in our movement, there is a tendency to grip tightly which hampers quickness and endurance. You see this a lot in lower level athletes, who can be clunky in their movement. In contrast, many top athletes have a gracefulness or fluidity + explosiveness that comes from being relaxed and then activating only the fewest motor units as needed to execute an action.
- with the human body, moving the hands in straight lines is actually harder than moving in arcs. This is because you have to combine the movement at 2 or more joints to cancel out resulting in a straight path. This is something to consider when it comes to mouse control.
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Whenever my wrists are giving me pain I do ice baths. Fill up a sink or tub with ice (I prefer frozen water bottles or just ice packs so I can reuse them instead of wasting a bunch of ice). Dunk your arm in the water for 10 to 15 seconds. Leave and come back in 10 or 15 min and repeat. Do this for an hour or two each day. My pain went away. I'm sure ergonomics will definitely help but I think the reduction in swelling/tension in your arms will get your wrists to a place where the better ergonomics prevents further injury.
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Those of you young guns with terrible posture please please listen to this stuff. Im 26 been gaming forever and i have terrible pains fairly often and i don't have the worst posture. My wrists to my elbows have bad arthritis.2-4 times a week i take tylenol or advil or something more when its raining. I can't imagine how its going to be when im 50. when i was 16 and younger i didnt care at all about this ergonomic crap and im already paying for it. Its no joke .
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The kinesis keyboard + good sitting position has worked for me and many of my friends with wrist problems it's fairly expensive and hard to get accostumed to though. Stretching and all that stuff is really useless as a way to fix the problem -- in fact it might actually make it worse many a time -- as you are only dealing with the symptoms rather than the root of the problem.
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On June 11 2011 02:25 DusTerr wrote:as someone who worked in a relay call center + Show Spoiler +(typing all day and getting rated on my ergonomics monthly - the company really didn't want to pay if any of us complained of RSI/CTS etc) and at a 911 call center working 12h shifts I'd recommend this posturetry to keep your shoulders relaxed, arms hanging, elbows at 90*, forearms parallel to the floor and thighs (this puts your desk surface right above your lap) and most importantly... your wrists should not be bent (do not prop up the back of your keyboard so it angles toward you). Keep the top of your monitor just above eye level (slightly higher if it's larger than 20"). Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 01:57 prodigysc2 wrote:
is it okay to not even rest my keyboard hand at all when typing? what if i kept my elbow and forearm off my arm rest from my chair and kept my wrist off the table so my hand is floating above my keyboard while typing. is this okay? better? worse? I was always told never to rest my wrists or elbows while typing. i would think you're better off letting your hand "hang" naturally over your keyboard and mouse (again, this really requires you to have your desk at the right height).
I'm not someone who's had a job like that, but I really agree with this. Personally I have a custom setup for my keyboard where it's at a negative angle. As far as I understand, that is what is optimal, not a positive or level angle.
I like to have my keyboard also quite low, but it' really hard or impossible with my current furniture. I like to have the mouse at about the same height as the keyboard. I've tried having the mouse at a negative angle as well, but obviously it was rather troublesome— any time i took my hand off the mouse, the cursor would fly to the top of the screen (because the mouse would move to the top of the pad until something stopped it), which was especially problematic in starcraft 2 where that causes the screen to scroll to the top of the map, hence this is not really recommended unless you have some sort of crazy suspension for the mouse to prevent that.
When it comes to seating, I personally use a cheap kneeling chair which probably isn't that great (compared to an expensive one), but I think that it strengthens my spine still.
Here's a summary of some seating methods:
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergonomics/sitting/sitting_alternative.html#_1_2
I find using a wrist rest is very important for mouse use— at one point I somehow didn't use any, but then I started to use a piece of soft foam that was nice, before using a gel wrist rest, which I had previously, didn't think I'd like, but got used to it.
What I recommend most is a keyboard or keyboard&mouse tray that goes under a desktop and can slope the keyboard at a negative angle (while keeping the mouse rather level). Space for a wrist rest for the keyboard would be useful too, but I don't think is really needed.
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I've had some dull pains in my elbow and wrist, and about a week ago my "mouse wrist" was swollen and hurt quite a bit for a few days, so I know where you're coming from. There's a lot of varying advice and, of course, lots of products designed to cash in on these problems. Here are some things I learned in trying to avoid causing pain in my arm:
- If it hurts, rest it. Don't "baby it" (as in don't not move or use it ever) because it will probably just get stiff and hurt more when you move it.
- If you use a relatively high sensitivity, this could be causing your wrist pain. I started using very low sensitivity in both StarCraft and Quake for this reason. It helps to keep your arm moving around - it keeps your hand warm, and you don't want it to stay tense in relatively the same position.
- If you spam-click a lot, you may as well just not do that. It's just causing unnecessary tension.
- Make sure your armrest isn't putting pressure on any part of your forearm as this can lessen blood flow. Only have your elbow on your armrest.
- Maybe the most important: We aren't obligated to play computer games all day without pain. Our bodies aren't made for StarCraft. There doesn't have to be a magical solution. Take breaks between games, even if it's just a couple of minutes. I hope you're not playing for basically 6 hours straight. If you are, then I think you should consider taking at least an hour break in between.
- If you insist on playing as a job, then you may have to accept that you're going to need to be doing some running and other exercise (sorry if I'm assuming wrong here, I just don't believe you mentioned that you do). I doubt many pro SC2 players will tell you they don't do some sort of workout quite often. Your health comes first.
That's my advice as a fellow competitor who has played a lot of games for a long time. I hope it helps. Take care of yourself.
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is it okay to not even rest my keyboard hand at all when typing? what if i kept my elbow and forearm off my arm rest from my chair and kept my wrist off the table so my hand is floating above my keyboard while typing. is this okay? better? worse?
It's ok, since there's even less pressure points you won't hurt your wrists, at least not in the same way as you may have been doing previously. You'll just get tired a little more easily. If you think about it though, pianists can play for hours and their arms are floating all the time.
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I always have my laptop and mouse about a foot away from the edge of the desk and rest my elbows on it. (long arms) Also i rest my wrist on the edge of my laptop. My mouse hand is pivoting on my elbow tho.
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On June 11 2011 03:35 byce wrote:I've had some dull pains in my elbow and wrist, and about a week ago my "mouse wrist" was swollen and hurt quite a bit for a few days. I guess this was a tendon problem (I didn't go to a doctor because it healed in less than a week). There's a lot of varying advice and, of course, lots of products designed to cash in on these problems. I think the only things that are for sure are: - If it hurts, rest it. Don't "baby it" (as in don't not move or use it ever) because it will probably just get stiff and hurt more when you move it.
- If you use a relatively high sensitivity, this could be causing your wrist pain. I started using very low sensitivity in both StarCraft and Quake for this reason. It helps to keep your arm moving around - it keeps your hand warm, and you don't want it to stay tense in relatively the same position.
- If you spam-click a lot, you may as well just not do that. It's just causing unnecessary tension.
- Make sure your armrest isn't putting pressure on any part of your forearm as this can lessen blood flow. Only have your elbow on your armrest.
- Maybe the most important: We aren't obligated to play computer games all day without pain. Our bodies aren't made for StarCraft. There doesn't have to be a magical solution. Take breaks between games, even if it's just a couple of minutes. I hope you're not playing for basically 6 hours straight. If you are, then I think you should consider taking at least an hour break in between.
- If you insist on playing as a job, then you may have to accept that you're going to need to be doing some running and other exercise (sorry if I'm assuming wrong here, I just don't believe you mentioned that you do). I doubt many pro SC2 players will tell you they don't do some sort of workout quite often. Your health comes first.
That's my advice as a fellow competitor who has played a lot of games for a long time. I hope it helps. Take care of yourself.
It really baffles me how little the public knows who the musculoskeletal experts are out there.
You have 2 professions: orthopedist and chiropractors.
Sir the pain you are describing in your elbow & wrist, 9/10 times that would be radial misalignment. Goto a chiropractor or orthopedist and get that baby popped back in. Yes the pain may subside, but it may also mean you are developing chronic inflammation with your muscles/connective tissues.
I see a lot of ignorance on this forum regarding chronic inflammation, it will come back to haunt you guys if you ignore it. Yes ergonomics are important, but them alone won't prevent future injuries like some of you believe.
If you have soft tissue problem, go see the soft tissue experts (synonymous with musculoskeletal problem) as described above. Don't be ignorant and continue going to MDs (who lacks knowledge in that department) or PTs. (who usually can't diagnose the problem) (and I am mentioning those 2 professions as it's very common for you guys to goto them and come back disappointed with the fact that they can't help you)
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Or instead of a chiropractor you can go to a REAL DOCTOR who works based on ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
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On June 11 2011 06:03 skindzer wrote:
Or instead of a chiropractor you can go to a REAL DOCTOR who works based on ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
I'm not even gonna waste my time explaining the facts, but Chiropractors are real doctors and their main treatments are have far more scientific studies to back up their efficacy than what MDs have for majority of their treatment modalities.
That's right. That means scientific evidence points to Chiropractic for what they do.
If you don't believe me, go out there and do research on Chiropractic and their efficacy - from scientific study point of view - if you have the academic background to enable you to do so.. that is.
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Sorry, I edited my post to remove the part where I guess what the problem is. I also worded it a little more carefully. I forgot people love to give their opinions even if it may derail the thread.
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EPT
