On June 03 2011 03:56 Jacob666 wrote: I agree collosus are not what they should be, but instead of just removing them we should try to fix them. like give them their AOE attack as a spell while giving them a type of lazor thats non-splash for their regular attack. So they can use their AOE but it wont just be A-move or too much for a zerg/terran to handle.
Started reading, thinking it would be another silly balance idea.
Turns out this post is made of pure WIN! Make the Colossus standard attack like it is here:
Then change the Thermal Lance upgrade to an upgrade allowing a spell on cooldown where the Colossus focusses its beams on a certain spot then, after a set amount of time with a fast loading bar beneath the Colossus health, a small 'explosion' occurs at the point of focus, dealing AoE damage.
On June 03 2011 02:15 Eknoid4 wrote: I never saisd we couldn't have both. Why can't you read? Why do you assume i'm being absolutist? I am saying micro isn't and shouldn't be percieved as the MOST IMPORTANT, but it is. That's all I'm saying. Read it. Five times.
You double posted for some reason and I skipped over this:
I never said micro doesn't add depth to the game. If that's what you're arguing against, you're wrong. This entire thread sounds like it was made because of an idra podcast or something.
If you believe micro adds more depth than anything else in starcraft 2, you're an idiot, no matter what your division/rank/league is. If you believe there is 0 depth to forcefields or fungals, you're an idiot, no matter what your division/rank/league is. You can anticipate them and work around them. That means they add at least an iota of depth to the game and taking them out would lower it.
Anyway, your point is completely banal and unnecessary. Micro is getting a lot of focus in this thread because it's one area that people feel SC2 is lacking, that's all. I haven't seen anyone suggest that it should be more important than strategy, just that it should be more important than it is.
As for fungal and forcefield, this thread is about things that should be redesigned or removed and replaced. Taking forcefield out and replacing it with a better designed ability would not necessarily lower the depth of the game, no.
My point is banal because it's different from most of the posts in the thread? It's unnecessary because you disagree with it? Why?
Micro isn't just getting "a lot of focus in this thread" This thread's focus has become very specifically that we should get rid of spells and abilities that hinder opponent movement because they make the game less interesting. With a bunch of "these other units are straightforward and too strong/weak, we should completely change them" peppered in.
I disagree with that, and you can't seem to handle it.
I posit that most players think it's so important that you need to be able to react to anything without anticipating it or being punished for late reactions SIMPLY because most players can't look more than 5 seconds in front of their faces and get mad when they think they're gonna win, but are completely wrong and have no idea until they attack, so they blame game mechanics. I don't see anybody complaining that cloaked EMPs are overpowered, when it's literally the same amount of skill required to avoid.
actually do not like EMPs, wish they had a slight travel time, but they are also counter able by disengaging the enemy units. You cant do that if you get forcefielded or fungaled or concussive shot.
So you're saying we shouldn't have ways to punish someone for not knowing how far forward they should move? If I walk in range of fungals before i'm ready to engage, that is totally my fault, and if i didn't know the risks it was my responsibility to know them before i ventured forward. Just because the current metagame is basically to throw roaches at forcefields and then go OMG WTF HE PRESSED F LIKE 9 TIMES doesn't mean it's for any reason other than players are still maturing and as such arent holding themselves to as high of standards in all levels of play.
I remember a day when nobody microd marines unless it was large scale in sc2. And then Slayers Boxer played a TVT where one scout SCV walked into his base and he micro'd a single marine to kill it either before it saw anything or before it escaped. Then he pushed out with 3 marines and an SCV and won the game.
After that, every terran started trying to micro their units. At the time I was gold, and playing vs terran suddenly got so much easier at that level because people were so busy trying to copy boxer that they would completely stop macroing. Then Fake boxer/MKP came along, then marine micro became standard. I don't see a difference with anticipating good forcefield placement other than obviously if you don't anticipate it it's a lot more immediate.
Spells that control positioning in a game where entire matchups (brood war and starting to become sc2 TvT) are built around controlling positions certainly add more depth in the game than they take away. We as a community just haven't matured enough to accept the fact that there is a way around them and you have to think ahead.
MKP didn't start to micro his marines because BoxeR won a match earlier in the day...
I never said he did. but chronologically, MKP's famous marine micro came after Boxer's showy clickin in the GSL. Glad you had something useful to add, though.
On June 03 2011 02:15 Eknoid4 wrote: I never saisd we couldn't have both. Why can't you read? Why do you assume i'm being absolutist? I am saying micro isn't and shouldn't be percieved as the MOST IMPORTANT, but it is. That's all I'm saying. Read it. Five times.
You double posted for some reason and I skipped over this:
I never said micro doesn't add depth to the game. If that's what you're arguing against, you're wrong. This entire thread sounds like it was made because of an idra podcast or something.
If you believe micro adds more depth than anything else in starcraft 2, you're an idiot, no matter what your division/rank/league is. If you believe there is 0 depth to forcefields or fungals, you're an idiot, no matter what your division/rank/league is. You can anticipate them and work around them. That means they add at least an iota of depth to the game and taking them out would lower it.
Anyway, your point is completely banal and unnecessary. Micro is getting a lot of focus in this thread because it's one area that people feel SC2 is lacking, that's all. I haven't seen anyone suggest that it should be more important than strategy, just that it should be more important than it is.
As for fungal and forcefield, this thread is about things that should be redesigned or removed and replaced. Taking forcefield out and replacing it with a better designed ability would not necessarily lower the depth of the game, no.
My point is banal because it's different from most of the posts in the thread? It's unnecessary because you disagree with it? Why?
Micro isn't just getting "a lot of focus in this thread" This thread's focus has become very specifically that we should get rid of spells and abilities that hinder opponent movement because they make the game less interesting. With a bunch of "these other units are straightforward and too strong/weak, we should completely change them" peppered in.
I disagree with that, and you can't seem to handle it.
I posit that most players think it's so important that you need to be able to react to anything without anticipating it or being punished for late reactions SIMPLY because most players can't look more than 5 seconds in front of their faces and get mad when they think they're gonna win, but are completely wrong and have no idea until they attack, so they blame game mechanics. I don't see anybody complaining that cloaked EMPs are overpowered, when it's literally the same amount of skill required to avoid.
actually do not like EMPs, wish they had a slight travel time, but they are also counter able by disengaging the enemy units. You cant do that if you get forcefielded or fungaled or concussive shot.
So you're saying we shouldn't have ways to punish someone for not knowing how far forward they should move? If I walk in range of fungals before i'm ready to engage, that is totally my fault, and if i didn't know the risks it was my responsibility to know them before i ventured forward. Just because the current metagame is basically to throw roaches at forcefields and then go OMG WTF HE PRESSED F LIKE 9 TIMES doesn't mean it's for any reason other than players are still maturing and as such arent holding themselves to as high of standards in all levels of play.
I remember a day when nobody microd marines unless it was large scale in sc2. And then Slayers Boxer played a TVT where one scout SCV walked into his base and he micro'd a single marine to kill it either before it saw anything or before it escaped. Then he pushed out with 3 marines and an SCV and won the game.
After that, every terran started trying to micro their units. At the time I was gold, and playing vs terran suddenly got so much easier at that level because people were so busy trying to copy boxer that they would completely stop macroing. Then Fake boxer/MKP came along, then marine micro became standard. I don't see a difference with anticipating good forcefield placement other than obviously if you don't anticipate it it's a lot more immediate.
Spells that control positioning in a game where entire matchups (brood war and starting to become sc2 TvT) are built around controlling positions certainly add more depth in the game than they take away. We as a community just haven't matured enough to accept the fact that there is a way around them and you have to think ahead.
Your entire post is a giant strawman. Nobody is arguing that spells that control positions are bad, or that people shouldn't be punished for mistakes. The argument is that the game shouldn't remove options from the game or punish the player to an extent that they can't do anything to make up for their mistake.
A good example is the complaint regarding zerg scouting. People feel that it's lacking because if a zerg doesn't guess correctly, he can be cheesed and knocked out purely due to a build-order loss. Nobody should be punished that badly just because they couldn't guess a build order, but it happened all the time early on in the game due to the fact that terran and protoss were much more powerful early-game until they got nerfed.
The point with the whole "anti-micro" debate is that there is no way for player skill to mitigate a mistake when they get hit with abilities like conc shells and fungal growth. If a person happens to run into a storm, they get punished for it, but they can also mitigate it by pulling their units back. If a person gets part of their army fungal'd, those units are dead, almost guaranteed, and no amount of skill can change that. This doesn't present a balance problem, but it does present a problem when a game can cancel out micro, which is one of the most important aspects of SC. Imagine how much more boring TvZ would be if banelings were somehow able to force marines to stay still, preventing the awesome split micro that is probably the most entertaining micro feat so far in SC2. The game needs more of this, not less.
can we let go of the pseudo philosophy expert crap. You're not an expert in logic, and my post isn't a strawman. If you can't refute what I have to say without logic buzzwords, kindly don't try. you should try studying logic without trying to exploit it before you understand it. And before you lecture me on whatever your excuse is and how I should be the one reading the strawman wikipedia article you wanna link to me, and how now i'm committing even MORE logical fallacies, just give it a rest. I have made a sound argument that you have not addressed at all, but I'll respond to you anyway since you quoted me.
What the fuck? Player skill isn't supposed to be able to mitigate every mistake. If you make a mistake, and it is too difficult(or impossible) to punish you for it, THAT is a broken system. You should have had skill/foresight to know that decision wasn't going t owork for you. There is no amount of skill involved in going "oh, my army is dying now. Why can't I change anything!?" Sure, I fully understand with the concern that these mechanics could punish players TOO hard, but most of the time when players think they're being punished too hard (And better players are mysteriously not having nearly as big of a problem), they are just blaming everything but themselves.
Is it possible that forcefields are too strong? Definitely. Are people still striving despite that? Yep. Does that justify it? Nope. Is blizzard working on it? Yep. Are Blizzard devs more qualified than you? Yep. Does constantly making threads to talk about what is broken help? Not after the first time the topic is mentioned. Have more than a handful of the suggestions made in this thread been based in reality or remotely close to a realistic solution? No. Has there been more whining than constructive talking? OH MY GOD YES.
What if you could spread a control group of units into some kind of formation, and then hit some key so that they hold that formation as you move them up and down across the map. Is this an utterly ridiculous suggestion?
On June 03 2011 02:15 Eknoid4 wrote: I never saisd we couldn't have both. Why can't you read? Why do you assume i'm being absolutist? I am saying micro isn't and shouldn't be percieved as the MOST IMPORTANT, but it is. That's all I'm saying. Read it. Five times.
You double posted for some reason and I skipped over this:
I never said micro doesn't add depth to the game. If that's what you're arguing against, you're wrong. This entire thread sounds like it was made because of an idra podcast or something.
If you believe micro adds more depth than anything else in starcraft 2, you're an idiot, no matter what your division/rank/league is. If you believe there is 0 depth to forcefields or fungals, you're an idiot, no matter what your division/rank/league is. You can anticipate them and work around them. That means they add at least an iota of depth to the game and taking them out would lower it.
Anyway, your point is completely banal and unnecessary. Micro is getting a lot of focus in this thread because it's one area that people feel SC2 is lacking, that's all. I haven't seen anyone suggest that it should be more important than strategy, just that it should be more important than it is.
As for fungal and forcefield, this thread is about things that should be redesigned or removed and replaced. Taking forcefield out and replacing it with a better designed ability would not necessarily lower the depth of the game, no.
My point is banal because it's different from most of the posts in the thread? It's unnecessary because you disagree with it? Why?
Micro isn't just getting "a lot of focus in this thread" This thread's focus has become very specifically that we should get rid of spells and abilities that hinder opponent movement because they make the game less interesting. With a bunch of "these other units are straightforward and too strong/weak, we should completely change them" peppered in.
I disagree with that, and you can't seem to handle it.
I posit that most players think it's so important that you need to be able to react to anything without anticipating it or being punished for late reactions SIMPLY because most players can't look more than 5 seconds in front of their faces and get mad when they think they're gonna win, but are completely wrong and have no idea until they attack, so they blame game mechanics. I don't see anybody complaining that cloaked EMPs are overpowered, when it's literally the same amount of skill required to avoid.
actually do not like EMPs, wish they had a slight travel time, but they are also counter able by disengaging the enemy units. You cant do that if you get forcefielded or fungaled or concussive shot.
So you're saying we shouldn't have ways to punish someone for not knowing how far forward they should move? If I walk in range of fungals before i'm ready to engage, that is totally my fault, and if i didn't know the risks it was my responsibility to know them before i ventured forward. Just because the current metagame is basically to throw roaches at forcefields and then go OMG WTF HE PRESSED F LIKE 9 TIMES doesn't mean it's for any reason other than players are still maturing and as such arent holding themselves to as high of standards in all levels of play.
I remember a day when nobody microd marines unless it was large scale in sc2. And then Slayers Boxer played a TVT where one scout SCV walked into his base and he micro'd a single marine to kill it either before it saw anything or before it escaped. Then he pushed out with 3 marines and an SCV and won the game.
After that, every terran started trying to micro their units. At the time I was gold, and playing vs terran suddenly got so much easier at that level because people were so busy trying to copy boxer that they would completely stop macroing. Then Fake boxer/MKP came along, then marine micro became standard. I don't see a difference with anticipating good forcefield placement other than obviously if you don't anticipate it it's a lot more immediate.
Spells that control positioning in a game where entire matchups (brood war and starting to become sc2 TvT) are built around controlling positions certainly add more depth in the game than they take away. We as a community just haven't matured enough to accept the fact that there is a way around them and you have to think ahead.
Do you understand gray areas of combat.
Lets take dark swarm, from broodwar, an amazing ability, the most powerful spell in that game. When dark swarm happened against terran, they HAD to move back, they had to unsiege their tanks, they could make a positional mistake and not lose the entire game over it and suffer minimal losses, while the zerg could push forward slowly. Storms in PvZ against hydras were damageable to mitigate damage , and you could control area with them. Reavers scarabs damage could be reduced or mitigated by micro. Mines could be cost effectively dealt with by speed zealots.
One of the abilities that line up more with SC2, was statis, it shut down inter clumps of units, but this was necessary late game against a shit ton of tanks, it also made it so you wouldn't hurt the stasised unit. So even if you knocked out clumps of their army, they would be back, its more of a split and conquer kind of a deal, but that's because Tanks were just so good with a good minefield.
BW main stay spells and units allowed for alot of interaction and control from both sides of the engagement, and were not so black and white. Also, engagements were not always controlled by one race.
On June 03 2011 04:47 Eknoid4 wrote: can we let go of the pseudo philosophy expert crap. You're not an expert in logic, and my post isn't a strawman. If you can't refute what I have to say without logic buzzwords, kindly don't try. you should try studying logic without trying to exploit it before you understand it. And before you lecture me on whatever your excuse is and how I should be the one reading the strawman wikipedia article you wanna link to me, and how now i'm committing even MORE logical fallacies, just give it a rest. I have made a sound argument that you have not addressed at all, but I'll respond to you anyway since you quoted me.
Wait, what? Since when was my argument a logical lecture or a claim that I'm an "expert"? You took my strawman comment waaaaaay too personally. You made statements nobody claimed and I took issue with that, don't play it up more than that Mr. Sensitive.
What the fuck? Player skill isn't supposed to be able to mitigate every mistake. If you make a mistake, and it is too difficult(or impossible) to punish you for it, THAT is a broken system. You should have had skill/foresight to know that decision wasn't going t owork for you. There is no amount of skill involved in going "oh, my army is dying now. Why can't I change anything!?" Sure, I fully understand with the concern that these mechanics could punish players TOO hard, but most of the time when players think they're being punished too hard (And better players are mysteriously not having nearly as big of a problem), they are just blaming everything but themselves.
Is it possible that forcefields are too strong? Definitely. Are people still striving despite that? Yep. Does that justify it? Nope. Is blizzard working on it? Yep. Are Blizzard devs more qualified than you? Yep. Does constantly making threads to talk about what is broken help? Not after the first time the topic is mentioned. Have more than a handful of the suggestions made in this thread been based in reality or remotely close to a realistic solution? No. Has there been more whining than constructive talking? OH MY GOD YES.
Of course a player should be able to mitigate every mistake. You assume that when I say mitigate I mean nullify it entirely. That's not the point. It's kinda like in fighting games where you still take chip damage even if you block. You're mitigating it, but you're still taking damage. But the point is that you CAN mitigate it if you're skilled enough. You can't micro a fungaled unit though, which to me is a problem. Whether it's Boxer or Regular Joe, a fungaled marine is controlled exactly the same regardless of skill level, and I see that as something that should be avoided.
I also don't see how this makes our posts whining and not constructive either. We make multiple threads like this because it increases visibility since we can never be 100% sure whether Blizzard is reading this or not. If it annoys you, too bad.
On June 03 2011 02:15 Eknoid4 wrote: I never saisd we couldn't have both. Why can't you read? Why do you assume i'm being absolutist? I am saying micro isn't and shouldn't be percieved as the MOST IMPORTANT, but it is. That's all I'm saying. Read it. Five times.
You double posted for some reason and I skipped over this:
I never said micro doesn't add depth to the game. If that's what you're arguing against, you're wrong. This entire thread sounds like it was made because of an idra podcast or something.
If you believe micro adds more depth than anything else in starcraft 2, you're an idiot, no matter what your division/rank/league is. If you believe there is 0 depth to forcefields or fungals, you're an idiot, no matter what your division/rank/league is. You can anticipate them and work around them. That means they add at least an iota of depth to the game and taking them out would lower it.
Anyway, your point is completely banal and unnecessary. Micro is getting a lot of focus in this thread because it's one area that people feel SC2 is lacking, that's all. I haven't seen anyone suggest that it should be more important than strategy, just that it should be more important than it is.
As for fungal and forcefield, this thread is about things that should be redesigned or removed and replaced. Taking forcefield out and replacing it with a better designed ability would not necessarily lower the depth of the game, no.
My point is banal because it's different from most of the posts in the thread? It's unnecessary because you disagree with it? Why?
Micro isn't just getting "a lot of focus in this thread" This thread's focus has become very specifically that we should get rid of spells and abilities that hinder opponent movement because they make the game less interesting. With a bunch of "these other units are straightforward and too strong/weak, we should completely change them" peppered in.
I disagree with that, and you can't seem to handle it.
I posit that most players think it's so important that you need to be able to react to anything without anticipating it or being punished for late reactions SIMPLY because most players can't look more than 5 seconds in front of their faces and get mad when they think they're gonna win, but are completely wrong and have no idea until they attack, so they blame game mechanics. I don't see anybody complaining that cloaked EMPs are overpowered, when it's literally the same amount of skill required to avoid.
actually do not like EMPs, wish they had a slight travel time, but they are also counter able by disengaging the enemy units. You cant do that if you get forcefielded or fungaled or concussive shot.
So you're saying we shouldn't have ways to punish someone for not knowing how far forward they should move? If I walk in range of fungals before i'm ready to engage, that is totally my fault, and if i didn't know the risks it was my responsibility to know them before i ventured forward. Just because the current metagame is basically to throw roaches at forcefields and then go OMG WTF HE PRESSED F LIKE 9 TIMES doesn't mean it's for any reason other than players are still maturing and as such arent holding themselves to as high of standards in all levels of play.
I remember a day when nobody microd marines unless it was large scale in sc2. And then Slayers Boxer played a TVT where one scout SCV walked into his base and he micro'd a single marine to kill it either before it saw anything or before it escaped. Then he pushed out with 3 marines and an SCV and won the game.
After that, every terran started trying to micro their units. At the time I was gold, and playing vs terran suddenly got so much easier at that level because people were so busy trying to copy boxer that they would completely stop macroing. Then Fake boxer/MKP came along, then marine micro became standard. I don't see a difference with anticipating good forcefield placement other than obviously if you don't anticipate it it's a lot more immediate.
Spells that control positioning in a game where entire matchups (brood war and starting to become sc2 TvT) are built around controlling positions certainly add more depth in the game than they take away. We as a community just haven't matured enough to accept the fact that there is a way around them and you have to think ahead.
Do you understand gray areas of combat.
Lets take dark swarm, from broodwar, an amazing ability, the most powerful spell in that game. When dark swarm happened against terran, they HAD to move back, they had to unsiege their tanks, they could make a positional mistake and not lose the entire game over it and suffer minimal losses, while the zerg could push forward slowly. Storms in PvZ against hydras were damageable to mitigate damage , and you could control area with them. Reavers scarabs damage could be reduced or mitigated by micro. Mines could be cost effectively dealt with by speed zealots.
One of the abilities that line up more with SC2, was statis, it shut down inter clumps of units, but this was necessary late game against a shit ton of tanks, it also made it so you wouldn't hurt the stasised unit. So even if you knocked out clumps of their army, they would be back, its more of a split and conquer kind of a deal, but that's because Tanks were just so good with a good minefield.
BW main stay spells and units allowed for alot of interaction and control from both sides of the engagement, and were not so black and white. Also, engagements were not always controlled by one race.
Yeah, i understand that. And I totally agree that BW's spell caster units were more in line with ideal engagements. I guess my point is that everyone is rushing to create problems and talk about micro and just let someone else find the solutions. Or the solution is some half-baked idea they've had in their head for a while they think is solid gold but is terrible. I don't think forcefield and fungal are the best spells. They could totally be better. (well, to be honest, i dont have as much of a problem with fungal because it stops a small chunk of units rather than doing something like closing off an escape path)s are very easy to pick off if used incorrectly. forcefields just kind of get plastered on the field as needed). But i don't think we need such huge drastic changes. And I don't think most poeple understand WHY the changes would be good. They just think it's because THIS STUPID SPELL WOULDNT BE IN THE STUPID GAME AND I WOULDNT HAVE TO DEAL WITH STUPID MECHANICS FROM STUPID BLIZZARD ANYMORE
And maybe I am just fed up with all these intensely heated whinefests. Pop culture outrage of the month threads get bandwagoned on to a couple knowledgable posts with a serious concern and a genuine academic approach to a real problem.
"We should revisit these spells" turned into "We should get rid of these spells" and "they hinder interaction" turns into "They're boring and uninteresting and are impossible to counter" and that annoys the hell out of me. We're probably not really on different sides of the issue and i feel somewhat bad wasting your time as someone who'll take time to be thoughtful in a sea of people who resent the notion :p
I think with good unit design the balling becomes a non issue. ZvT at pro level is already ball free, and it makes the matchup more difficult by not having everything automatically spread out. TvT also ball free (just watched TLO vs Fenix today!). ZvZ can sometimes be ball vs. ball but it has a lot of other possibilities as well, and it's late game has been really slow as far as progess since it can be so easy to get a huge advantage early on. I think as that matchup gets more figured out in the late game people will realize that there are better ways to win than smashing your roach/infestor armies into each other and hoping for the best.
I really think we are already at the point were "unit balls" are no longer a problem with SC2, but a "problem" with Protoss exclusively. But maybe that isn't a problem at all, maybe having once race wanting to clump up, and the others wanting to spread out, is a good thing.
On June 03 2011 04:57 Spawkuring wrote: Of course a player should be able to mitigate every mistake. You assume that when I say mitigate I mean nullify it entirely. That's not the point. It's kinda like in fighting games where you still take chip damage even if you block. You're mitigating it, but you're still taking damage. But the point is that you CAN mitigate it if you're skilled enough. You can't micro a fungaled unit though, which to me is a problem. Whether it's Boxer or Regular Joe, a fungaled marine is controlled exactly the same regardless of skill level, and I see that as something that should be avoided.
Yeah, but we shouldn't just focus on the fungal itself. Fungal denies micro after the fact, but encourages micro to avoid it, micro that right now IMO is considered too difficult to pull off so players look for other ways to get an advantage, but it will only take one badass to show the world what to do, as always with innovation. Perhaps in the future - because of fungal - there will be epic micro of ghosts vs. infestors and overseer snipes. Either way, you certainly can't say that it's impossible to mitigate fungal with micro.
On June 03 2011 04:57 Spawkuring wrote: Of course a player should be able to mitigate every mistake. You assume that when I say mitigate I mean nullify it entirely. That's not the point. It's kinda like in fighting games where you still take chip damage even if you block. You're mitigating it, but you're still taking damage. But the point is that you CAN mitigate it if you're skilled enough. You can't micro a fungaled unit though, which to me is a problem. Whether it's Boxer or Regular Joe, a fungaled marine is controlled exactly the same regardless of skill level, and I see that as something that should be avoided.
Yeah, but we shouldn't just focus on the fungal itself. Fungal denies micro after the fact, but encourages micro to avoid it, micro that right now IMO is considered too difficult to pull off so players look for other ways to get an advantage, but it will only take one badass to show the world what to do, as always with innovation. Perhaps in the future - because of fungal - there will be epic micro of ghosts vs. infestors and overseer snipes. Either way, you certainly can't say that it's impossible to mitigate fungal with micro.
I've always been in favor of making spells like EMP and fungal to be dodgable missiles rather than the instantaneous AoEs they are now. But I still feel that there should be a way to micro your units even when they do get hit with a spell. Similar to how you can move units even when they're getting stormed.
This wasn't as big a deal in BW because such abilities only existed on very expensive, high-tech units like Arbiters and Dark Archons. But when we have easily massable forcefields and concussive shells, I feel that should be tweaks to that sort of thing.
On June 03 2011 04:57 Spawkuring wrote: Of course a player should be able to mitigate every mistake. You assume that when I say mitigate I mean nullify it entirely. That's not the point. It's kinda like in fighting games where you still take chip damage even if you block. You're mitigating it, but you're still taking damage. But the point is that you CAN mitigate it if you're skilled enough. You can't micro a fungaled unit though, which to me is a problem. Whether it's Boxer or Regular Joe, a fungaled marine is controlled exactly the same regardless of skill level, and I see that as something that should be avoided.
Yeah, but we shouldn't just focus on the fungal itself. Fungal denies micro after the fact, but encourages micro to avoid it, micro that right now IMO is considered too difficult to pull off so players look for other ways to get an advantage, but it will only take one badass to show the world what to do, as always with innovation. Perhaps in the future - because of fungal - there will be epic micro of ghosts vs. infestors and overseer snipes.
that already happens, its called having small packs of marines, and that leaves the micro all in one hand.
Its either this, you spread your marines, or you didn't, if you didn't spread your marines my fungal's win, you do, my fungal's lose. the exchange is predetermined in terms of control of the terran player, yes you mitigated it, but its just cause you spread beforehand, rather than responded after the situation happened. And that is not interesting usually, in terms of control, or spectating.
Wanna know something, late game TvP, was kinda boring in BW for a bit, because it was heavily based on how well the tanks were spread to mitigate the power of stasis. but things like aggresive vulture pokes and beast vulture micro let you deal with it. also, fungal kills, stasis does not.
On June 03 2011 04:47 Eknoid4 wrote: Is it possible that forcefields are too strong? Definitely. Are people still striving despite that? Yep. Does that justify it? Nope. Is blizzard working on it? Yep. Are Blizzard devs more qualified than you? Yep. Does constantly making threads to talk about what is broken help? Not after the first time the topic is mentioned. Have more than a handful of the suggestions made in this thread been based in reality or remotely close to a realistic solution? No. Has there been more whining than constructive talking? OH MY GOD YES.
This thread is about abilities and units that people find uninteresting, which is not the same thing as being too strong or broken. You don't seem to understand this.
On June 03 2011 04:47 Eknoid4 wrote: Is it possible that forcefields are too strong? Definitely. Are people still striving despite that? Yep. Does that justify it? Nope. Is blizzard working on it? Yep. Are Blizzard devs more qualified than you? Yep. Does constantly making threads to talk about what is broken help? Not after the first time the topic is mentioned. Have more than a handful of the suggestions made in this thread been based in reality or remotely close to a realistic solution? No. Has there been more whining than constructive talking? OH MY GOD YES.
This thread is about abilities and units that people find uninteresting, which is not the same thing as being too strong or broken. You don't seem to understand this.
No, this thread is about abilities that are uninteresting because their current functionality is fundamentally flawed and is not conducive to more interesting gameplay because of those flaws
Thus this thread is a discussion of those flaws and how/if to change/replace/fix them.
I would to give my opinion on that too Maybe i'm wrong but it's great to get feedback from the communauty on what's is "wrong" ( i prefer not refine) in this game.
- What units in the game need to go into the redesign list? First of all the Reaper. The design and the goal of this unit is to be a border raider. It's easy to just jump the cliff and attack nearby building. That's why they have a powerfull building attack. But if you made it to the worker, they are devastating. To counter this they are low on Hp and very weak to any armored unit due to the 2-shot attack. The effectiveness of this unit is really too map dependant. Not all map have good cliff to abuse ( but in Slag pits there is a way to jump and have all the worker in your range). Another problem that appears: the longer the game go on they lose their possibility to be a menace when the opponent begin to make their counter in any number over 5. He can spread his army to guard the cliff and then you can't, by any means, have any reason to continue harassing. Also, Nitro-pack needs a factory, and by the time you have one it's pretty likely that your opponent has more that enough to be fine. But you need it because it's greatly add speed to the reaper. And speed is a very important aspect of harassing, as you might imagine.
My crazy solution revolve around the Nitro-pack. Because the upgrade is late it's require to add another ability that compensate : The ability to fly! Imbalance you would say, but i don't want to make them fly like mutalisk. It's would be great if they have a ability that when they want to jump in non-walkable space, they would fly. When they fly they can't attack and are painfully slow ( to compensate they're ground mobility). I don't want them to jump in space and return so you can't attack them. So i would want that this ability have an after-use cooldown ( activate when they land) of something like 25 seconds that doesn't allow them to use the cliffjumping ability and reduced for 25 second their speed to 2,00.
. To resume they jump in the space, fly slowly to the ennemy base then land and attack buildings and worker. They have to wait for 25 second before being able to reuse any ability granted by the jetpack ( speed and cliffjumping) and after 25 second they are now fast and can rejump into the sky. That way I think it's balanced, but i maybe wrong and I would like to hear ( read) your thoughts on this. The speed increase of the Nitro-pack is unchanged.
The protoss gateway unit should also be more stronger. The warping and the forcefields cut too much the power of the gateway unit. I think Blizzard should at least remove one of the two and rebalance the power of gateway unit, because protoss should be a race with really strong unit that get beaten only by number or tech.
Finaly the unit "ball" should be remove. It's just painful to watch from a spectator perspective and is really too much powerfull.
I would really like to have your thoughts on my idea. I really love the reaper and i have try to add in my match-ups, but it's really difficults
What seems to basically be the case is that you've got stutter-step with a few units, but the vast majority of the rest is positional "micro". While ridiculously obvious in Terran games with tanks, forcefields, fungal/storm, and burrow(move) are also simply positional maneuvers. Taking it a step further, it's easy to argue that most battles are a-move affairs. Barring the ridiculously dumbed-down moving fire of the phoenix, there's really nothing like BW muta micro available in sc2.
While there are a ton of unit suggestions I could make (lurker and scourge would sure be more fun than roach and corrupter), I'd really like to see a concentrated effort to redo the cooldown and deceleration stats, return the moving shot to at least a few units, rebalance strengths, and finally replace some of the positional battles with actual micro fights.
On June 03 2011 05:39 Wren wrote: I stepped back in time and finally read the thread about the lack of moving shot micro in sc2, and it got me thinking about the current state of micro.
What seems to basically be the case is that you've got stutter-step with a few units, but the vast majority of the rest is positional "micro". While ridiculously obvious in Terran games with tanks, forcefields, fungal/storm, and burrow(move) are also simply positional maneuvers. Taking it a step further, it's easy to argue that most battles are a-move affairs. Barring the ridiculously dumbed-down moving fire of the phoenix, there's really nothing like BW muta micro available in sc2.
While there are a ton of unit suggestions I could make (lurker and scourge would sure be more fun than roach and corrupter), I'd really like to see a concentrated effort to redo the cooldown and deceleration stats, return the moving shot to at least a few units, rebalance strengths, and finally replace some of the positional battles with actual micro fights.
exactly my points in earlier things.
Things don't need a re haul to be fun, what units would benifit and be fun with moving shot and reduced attack animation cooldown. For the record, if any person that doesn't know, when i speak of cooldown i speak of how long you cant move because of the attack animation.
What units should, and should not have stutter step.
what units should or should not have moving shot air micro( talking broodwar esque), as give an attack command, then a move command, then an attack command.
What units would benefit from having to accelerate to make them more micro able and interesting.
tweaking damage and all that is fine. But why not take the approach of how can we make basic units interesting and pull out slight advantage.
Colossus and Corruptors are the only ones I think should just be taken out of the game. But I think carriers, motherships, immortals, overseers and ultralisks could be changed for the better.
EPT
Maybe i'm wrong but it's great to get feedback from the communauty on what's is "wrong" ( i prefer not refine) in this game.
