EPTWhat WoL units/mechanics are uninteresting? - Page 34
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
-Reapers. Something about them just doesn't feel right, they're just "there" with no real purpose except scouting. -Overseers. I agree with Blizzard that they're just overglorified scouts. -Marines. Something about a unit that just does constant DPS isn't very exciting for me. I much prefer burst damage. What type of new units/buildings would you like to see? More units with burst damage, delivering serious damage in a short time with a cooldown. Banelings are a great example of such a unit, and so are Reavers from BW. | ||
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whisp91
87 Posts
fungal hydra i guess | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On June 03 2011 02:59 Rococo wrote: You double posted for some reason and I skipped over this: Anyway, your point is completely banal and unnecessary. Micro is getting a lot of focus in this thread because it's one area that people feel SC2 is lacking, that's all. I haven't seen anyone suggest that it should be more important than strategy, just that it should be more important than it is. As for fungal and forcefield, this thread is about things that should be redesigned or removed and replaced. Taking forcefield out and replacing it with a better designed ability would not necessarily lower the depth of the game, no. My point is banal because it's different from most of the posts in the thread? It's unnecessary because you disagree with it? Why? Micro isn't just getting "a lot of focus in this thread" This thread's focus has become very specifically that we should get rid of spells and abilities that hinder opponent movement because they make the game less interesting. With a bunch of "these other units are straightforward and too strong/weak, we should completely change them" peppered in. I disagree with that, and you can't seem to handle it. I posit that most players think it's so important that you need to be able to react to anything without anticipating it or being punished for late reactions SIMPLY because most players can't look more than 5 seconds in front of their faces and get mad when they think they're gonna win, but are completely wrong and have no idea until they attack, so they blame game mechanics. I don't see anybody complaining that cloaked EMPs are overpowered, when it's literally the same amount of skill required to avoid. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On June 03 2011 03:10 Eknoid4 wrote: My point is banal because it's different from most of the posts in the thread? It's unnecessary because you disagree with it? Why? Micro isn't just getting "a lot of focus in this thread" This thread's focus has become very specifically that we should get rid of spells and abilities that hinder opponent movement because they make the game less interesting. With a bunch of "these other units are straightforward and too strong/weak, we should completely change them" peppered in. I disagree with that, and you can't seem to handle it. I posit that most players think it's so important that you need to be able to react to anything without anticipating it or being punished for late reactions SIMPLY because most players can't look more than 5 seconds in front of their faces and get mad when they think they're gonna win, but are completely wrong and have no idea until they attack, so they blame game mechanics. I don't see anybody complaining that cloaked EMPs are overpowered, when it's literally the same amount of skill required to avoid. It's not about lacking the skill to avoid it. It's about having options. You normally have two ways to avoid a spell: 1. Position units so they don't get hit by it. (pre-battle micro) 2. Dodge spells while they're being casted on you. (in-battle micro) The problem is that several SC2 abilities remove option #2 from the equation. Less options usually leads to a more shallow game. And taking away micro options is especially bad because in-battle micro is a HUGE part of spectator quality. You'll rarely see spectators get excited over a Colossus A-move, but you'll definitely hear cheers over a fantastic marine split. | ||
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gauauu
United States47 Posts
Honestly anyone who complains about larvae inject being boring or repetitive needs to sit back and realize it is easily the strongest macro mechanic in the game. Well, I play random, so I can compare (although I'm not all that great, just plat, so take this with a grain of salt). The other macro mechanics (mules, chrono) seem interesting to use, and I feel like I'm making a choice. Do I use this now? Do I use it on this or that? Sure you have to remember to do it, like everything else in the game, but it feels like another piece of the overall strategy. Spawning Larva seems like a chore that I have to remember to do. Every x seconds, click that. It's like pushing the button on Lost. Strong or not, it's just not fun or interesting -- it's just an APM sink. So yeah, uninteresting things to rework: - Colossi (boring) - Corruptors (boring) - Reapers (has potential to be interesting) - Spawn Larva (tedious and boring) | ||
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r_con
United States824 Posts
On June 03 2011 03:10 Eknoid4 wrote: My point is banal because it's different from most of the posts in the thread? It's unnecessary because you disagree with it? Why? Micro isn't just getting "a lot of focus in this thread" This thread's focus has become very specifically that we should get rid of spells and abilities that hinder opponent movement because they make the game less interesting. With a bunch of "these other units are straightforward and too strong/weak, we should completely change them" peppered in. I disagree with that, and you can't seem to handle it. I posit that most players think it's so important that you need to be able to react to anything without anticipating it or being punished for late reactions SIMPLY because most players can't look more than 5 seconds in front of their faces and get mad when they think they're gonna win, but are completely wrong and have no idea until they attack, so they blame game mechanics. I don't see anybody complaining that cloaked EMPs are overpowered, when it's literally the same amount of skill required to avoid. actually do not like EMPs, wish they had a slight travel time, but they are also counter able by disengaging the enemy units. You cant do that if you get forcefielded or fungaled or concussive shot. On June 03 2011 03:17 gauauu wrote: Well, I play random, so I can compare (although I'm not all that great, just plat, so take this with a grain of salt). The other macro mechanics (mules, chrono) seem interesting to use, and I feel like I'm making a choice. Do I use this now? Do I use it on this or that? Sure you have to remember to do it, like everything else in the game, but it feels like another piece of the overall strategy. Spawning Larva seems like a chore that I have to remember to do. Every x seconds, click that. It's like pushing the button on Lost. Strong or not, it's just not fun or interesting -- it's just an APM sink. So yeah, uninteresting things to rework: - Colossi (boring) - Corruptors (boring) - Reapers (has potential to be interesting) - Spawn Larva (tedious and boring) and so is constant building of SCV's? and constant building of units. There is a shit ton that is repetitive and tedious stuff in starcraf, especially when you get better and better. Do you find building another round of marines(that you have already planned to build because of economic reason) this amazing decision or extremely interesting? They aren't but they are what make starcraft great | ||
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Grimjim
United States395 Posts
Please just leave it up to the designers and (relatively) unbiased pros, until we actually get to see the new units and abilities the expansion brings. | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On June 03 2011 03:18 r_con wrote: actually do not like EMPs, wish they had a slight travel time, but they are also counter able by disengaging the enemy units. You cant do that if you get forcefielded or fungaled or concussive shot. So you're saying we shouldn't have ways to punish someone for not knowing how far forward they should move? If I walk in range of fungals before i'm ready to engage, that is totally my fault, and if i didn't know the risks it was my responsibility to know them before i ventured forward. Just because the current metagame is basically to throw roaches at forcefields and then go OMG WTF HE PRESSED F LIKE 9 TIMES doesn't mean it's for any reason other than players are still maturing and as such arent holding themselves to as high of standards in all levels of play. I remember a day when nobody microd marines unless it was large scale in sc2. And then Slayers Boxer played a TVT where one scout SCV walked into his base and he micro'd a single marine to kill it either before it saw anything or before it escaped. Then he pushed out with 3 marines and an SCV and won the game. After that, every terran started trying to micro their units. At the time I was gold, and playing vs terran suddenly got so much easier at that level because people were so busy trying to copy boxer that they would completely stop macroing. Then Fake boxer/MKP came along, then marine micro became standard. I don't see a difference with anticipating good forcefield placement other than obviously if you don't anticipate it it's a lot more immediate. Spells that control positioning in a game where entire matchups (brood war and starting to become sc2 TvT) are built around controlling positions certainly add more depth in the game than they take away. We as a community just haven't matured enough to accept the fact that there is a way around them and you have to think ahead. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
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Rococo
United States331 Posts
On June 03 2011 03:10 Eknoid4 wrote: My point is banal because it's different from most of the posts in the thread? It's unnecessary because you disagree with it? Why? No, because it seems obvious and uncontroversial to me. I have no idea why you think I disagree with it. Micro should not be the single most important part of the game, no. Micro isn't just getting "a lot of focus in this thread" This thread's focus has become very specifically that we should get rid of spells and abilities that hinder opponent movement because they make the game less interesting. Because they make micro less of a factor, yes. Ideally a better ability would accomplish the same thing as forcefield strategically, but make it less one-sided in micro. I posit that most players think it's so important that you need to be able to react to anything without anticipating it or being punished for late reactions SIMPLY because most players can't look more than 5 seconds in front of their faces and get mad when they think they're gonna win, but are completely wrong and have no idea until they attack, so they blame game mechanics. I don't see anybody complaining that cloaked EMPs are overpowered, when it's literally the same amount of skill required to avoid. Or perhaps they really do think these abilities just make the game less interesting to play and to watch. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
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Jacob666
United States285 Posts
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MarcH
United Kingdom362 Posts
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Terkill
Denmark38 Posts
On June 01 2011 02:06 Chronald wrote: Uninteresting units: 1. Corrupter 2. Hellion 3. Colossus I like your ideas about the graphics, but besides that idk about your other changes, they seem very drastic. I beg to differ. Hellions are not uninteresting at all. I would like to see some sort of buff on the corruptors though, as they're only really used against the protoss deathball (Colossus' and void rays), and even there they tend to fail miserably. But honestly at the moment the most uninteresting units in this game are: - Battlecruiser - Carrier - Mothership Only because they're never used. I've played 500 games on ladder, seen 1 battlecruiser build, 2 carrier and 3 motherships. | ||
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Gaspa
Brazil109 Posts
As for the current units... well, i do think all of the ones we have now can have their uses... i mean, the reaper isn't that useful any more, but it's such a cool unit i don't want it to go. Can someone please make reapers be useful again? Think of something, use them in combination with drops to give them time to destroy buildings, or something  | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
infestor = defiler (lair) w/ swarm as hive tech corruptor = devour, muta -> broodlord/devour add scourge. add lurker. remove roach, change hydra to hatch tech, weaker, faster. hellion = vulture reaper = firebat colossus = reaver mothership = arbitor add dark archon raven = vessel. auto turret to defensive matrix, hunter seeker to irradiate. its clear they changed bw units to a different but similar unit, it is less interesting. | ||
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Fyodor
Canada971 Posts
On June 03 2011 03:34 Eknoid4 wrote: So you're saying we shouldn't have ways to punish someone for not knowing how far forward they should move? If I walk in range of fungals before i'm ready to engage, that is totally my fault, and if i didn't know the risks it was my responsibility to know them before i ventured forward. Just because the current metagame is basically to throw roaches at forcefields and then go OMG WTF HE PRESSED F LIKE 9 TIMES doesn't mean it's for any reason other than players are still maturing and as such arent holding themselves to as high of standards in all levels of play. I remember a day when nobody microd marines unless it was large scale in sc2. And then Slayers Boxer played a TVT where one scout SCV walked into his base and he micro'd a single marine to kill it either before it saw anything or before it escaped. Then he pushed out with 3 marines and an SCV and won the game. After that, every terran started trying to micro their units. At the time I was gold, and playing vs terran suddenly got so much easier at that level because people were so busy trying to copy boxer that they would completely stop macroing. Then Fake boxer/MKP came along, then marine micro became standard. I don't see a difference with anticipating good forcefield placement other than obviously if you don't anticipate it it's a lot more immediate. Spells that control positioning in a game where entire matchups (brood war and starting to become sc2 TvT) are built around controlling positions certainly add more depth in the game than they take away. We as a community just haven't matured enough to accept the fact that there is a way around them and you have to think ahead. MKP didn't start to micro his marines because BoxeR won a match earlier in the day... | ||
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