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On May 20 2011 19:12 HeIios wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote:
The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else. This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc? I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen. [edit] I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does. And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it.
GOM has the exclusive rights for sc2 in Korea.
So a tournament situated there is either held by GOM or not held at all.
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On May 20 2011 21:55 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 19:12 HeIios wrote:On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote:
The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else. This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc? I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen. [edit] I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does. And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it. GOM has the exclusive rights for sc2 in Korea. So a tournament situated there is either held by GOM or not held at all.
Other tournaments can be run with Gom's permission,
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What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV?
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On May 18 2011 05:09 blackone wrote:
Oh my god, please, no.
I'd really like the GSL to become more "Global", but not at the price of quality. A big part of the awesomeness of GSL is due to the factor that it is not online (yea blabla no LAN mode, you know what I mean), and I don't want people to be seeded into Code S because if you're not able to qualify for it, you don't belong there.
THIS! You took the words out of my mouth.
Also.
Making American players get more seeds into code S from an event like MLG is extremely unfair and would not even balance over a long period of time.
We all want to see more foreign players in the GSL, because it is the best tournament there is. However, we should not do this at any cost. I don't think people fully realize how much koreans dedicate to be able to make it into Code A/S.
If more seeds are given from other tours, the qualifiers will be even harder! Also, MLG is an event, GSL is a league - hence it does not really make sense to draft winners from MLG to GSL and vice versa.
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Great article.
But I do think that you miss a point that I think GOM should think about: GSTL. Now when GSTL is going to be more like a sc2-proleague, then if there were a foreign team, or more mixed in foreign players, I believe that the foreign community would take even more interest in GSL.
I dont really know if there is any team that could move to Korea just for GSTL. But if there was a online foreign GSTL qualifyer that granted the winner a GSTL spot and the GOM-house for a month, then maybe that could be something?
Dunno, maybe not, but a foreign team would be good for both fans and foreign players trying to live in Korea.
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I think OP misunderstood the term 'global' in GSL. Everyone knows it's just mainly for marketing purpose, it doesnt mean GOM will try to get 65248 nations to compete for the titles. Obviously their #1 customer is and should be Korean in order to compete with BW and make sc2 popular in Korea. who cares about the west anyway. Adding some foreigners will earn them some premium tickets and positive critic, thus justifying the league name a bit. But thats all,if I was GOM,I would not care much either,I would give chance to my dedicated and skilled gamers, not random foreigner who cant afford to get past second round. I would try to take fans from MBC/OGN, not to please a forum.
GOM is so generous toward us, you guys should stop being greedy.
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Western pro-gamers doesn't seem to be making much moniez anyways. Tell me who is the Richest earning SC2 player that is not from korea.. and who is the richest korean SC1 player... If all top tier players were well paid, then this problem wouldnt exist ey..
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Korea needs a real team league and an MSL equivalent to GSL. Code A doesn't count since it doesn't pay shit, it's just a stepping stone to GSL
There's a significant opportunity cost to going to Korea that didn't exist in BW, outside of the lifestyle changes and the physical barrier of getting to Korea, you weren't sacrificing anything else. In SC2 you sacrifice all of the foreign tournaments for the shot at a single tournament that is harder for any foreigner to win. It doesn't make sense for 95% of foreigners to go to Korea right now, but it could change if there was more opportunity, but SC2 would have to be bigger in Korea for that to come around.
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Big wall of text? (Long comment)
+ Show Spoiler +I can understand Xeris's problems when it comes to sending players to Korea and despite the discussions here, GOM really do want foreigners to come play in their tournaments. However the solutions that he listed is nothing but a quick fix for a problem that needs a long-time solution.
Online qualification and Qualifying people directly into Code S are really good ideas but recently GOM made a huge revamp to their tournament system and to be frank inviting people directly into Code S is like trampling on those who work their butts off in Code B and Code A.
Personally I believe that to make the GSL, MLG and all the big tournaments out there to truly become "Global" the team needs to look further ahead and carefully look at the growth of e-sports. If big teams like Fnatic, TeamLiquid, Dignitas, FXO, Mousesports, EvilGeniuses looked into branching out and making a Korean team a lot of the issues Xeris listed will actually go away.
Of course it will require a lot of work, planning and funding but looking at how SC2 has grown so far, there are plenty of possibilities out there. There are still plenty of talented Korean players aspiring to become pro-gamers and considering how "full" all of the pro-houses are there must be plenty of players looking for a team they could join (Especially coming August/July when the SC1 contracts run out).
Having a 'Home away from home' would solve a lot of the problems that the foreigners have when trying to accommodate into the environment and it would also benefit Koreans if they wish to play outside of Korea to have an established team internationally. The IM Coach stated in an interview with Artosis that they're actually looking to integrate foreign players into their team, so the idea that Korean players can't practice and play with foreigners isn't ridiculous at all.
But it is not only the "Foreign-teams" that needs this form of "branching out". The Korean teams may very well look into making a international team themselves, many Koreans wants to play in foreign tournaments however they are rarely invited to such events. If Korean teams can get some presence out in the foreign scene, it would increase their chances of getting invited.
What I am writing may be delusional or just a far fetched dream but if you think carefully about it, it may be one of possible futures in e-sports. I would be thrilled to see a team in GSL mixed with foreigners and Koreans playing at the top stage of the world and I would also be equally thrilled to see Koreans and Foreigners participate in local and bigger events internationally as well.
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The caller on Lo3 had it right, send the top players to the Up and Down matches, not Code A. So first place winner gets Code S, the 3 runner ups gets into Up and Down matches.
Up and Down matches are a one day thing, if you loose you go to Code A and can choose if you wanna stay for that or not. If you win you go to Code S and will probably stay.
That idea just sounded brilliant to me.
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On May 20 2011 22:08 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV?
Because they realized foreigners can at least compete (Dimaga beating Nestea, Jinro, Huk, Idra making it to Code S). Not sure if you realize this but... check the VOD views between korean vs korean and foreigner vs korean. You will see quite the discrepancy. The truth is, when a foreigner plays, we all tune in because we want to support him. They want that kind of relationship in their league... countries getting behind their player and what not. It expands their viewers and demographic.
It makes perfect sense.
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So what its okay for koreans to pay for a expensive as fuck plane ticket to play in NA, and EU, but not for "Foreigners".
Foreigner progamers are entitled as fuck. How many fucking chances does a normal person have to visit a country like korea, and these fucks are being invited.
Foreigners have no right anymore to whine about being second class to the korean players.
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On May 21 2011 00:06 ilmman wrote:
Western pro-gamers doesn't seem to be making much moniez anyways. Tell me who is the Richest earning SC2 player that is not from korea.. and who is the richest korean SC1 player... If all top tier players were well paid, then this problem wouldnt exist ey..
You kidding me right? Have you any idea how much sponsors pay the best players in EU.
Take White-ra for example he got a solo sponsorship from Duckload.
There is shitloads of money in the western scene atm and thats wihtout price winnings
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On May 20 2011 22:05 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 21:55 JustPassingBy wrote:On May 20 2011 19:12 HeIios wrote:On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote:
The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else. This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc? I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen. [edit] I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does. And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it. GOM has the exclusive rights for sc2 in Korea. So a tournament situated there is either held by GOM or not held at all. Other tournaments can be run with Gom's permission,
Yes, but you'll probably have to pay them.
Otherwise, I can't understant why they would have that clause in their contract with blizzard,
which probably cost them quite a lot of money.
At least I don't think that they won't silently stand another big league
that might challenge their status as the premier tournament for sc2 in Korea.
A small weekly cup during a time when there is no GSL, of course.
But a League the size that it becomes relevant for the local esport scene... not likely.
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On May 21 2011 01:46 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 22:05 pieman819 wrote:On May 20 2011 21:55 JustPassingBy wrote:On May 20 2011 19:12 HeIios wrote:On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote:
The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else. This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc? I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen. [edit] I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does. And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it. GOM has the exclusive rights for sc2 in Korea. So a tournament situated there is either held by GOM or not held at all. Other tournaments can be run with Gom's permission, Yes, but you'll probably have to pay them. Otherwise, I can't understant why they would have that clause in their contract with blizzard, which probably cost them quite a lot of money. At least I don't think that they won't silently stand another big league that might challenge their status as the premier tournament for sc2 in Korea. A small weekly cup during a time when there is no GSL, of course. But a League the size that it becomes relevant for the local esport scene... not likely.
GSL runs a tournament nearly constantly. MLG and IPL or NASL aren't really directly competing with one another (too much). And they usually take a break for MLG which only runs for 3 days. Another SC2 league in Korea would directly step on GOM's toes even if they paid for a license.
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I'm on board with the point of this post but I don't think it goes far enough.
GSL is a big tournament with a large recurring prize pool so I'm not trying to say it isn't an awesome event. I just think we need to stop thinking of it as BETTER than NA/EU events.
1) Korea is the #1 place for SC1 but tournament results show Sweden (Europe in general) is obv the #1 place for SC2. I think the GSL is profiting too much from the reputation that Korean gamers earned in SC1. I think that with the new game Korea should have to re-earn its spot at the top and so far I don't think it's doing so. By rolling over and saying "you aren't good until you're in the GSL" we are stealing credit from the foreign players winning in what may very well be equally (or perhaps more?) challenging tournaments.
2) Nobody is refuting that it is easier to make money playing outside of Korea. You may not see a single check as big as the GSL championship prize, but a Code S caliber player that plays regularly will make more than an average GSL participant. Xeris' Haypro example is spot on. The GSL needs to make itself more attractive when compared to foreign tournaments if they want the privilege of our best players participating. The other side of this coin is the fact that capable Korean players can and ARE travelling outside Korea because they recognize the value of foreign tournaments. What if some of them move?
3) Seriously, who has proven that Koreans as a group are the best in the world? I know about Ace, Squirtle, MC and others tearing it up in foreign tournaments, and I am willing to admit that some of the best players in the world are Korean- but that doesn’t mean being Korean makes you better than foreigners. I know, wahhh wahhh wahh lag in the TSL so I won't make my point on those results alone, but seriously I think there are plenty of Code S players that could not win at MLG. I guess we will see in Columbus
I look at GSL like I look at the New York Times- no matter how good the content is they can't help the fact that the industry is moving a different direction.The only thing that is going to save them is a mass migration of SC1 players when their Kespa contracts end, otherwise a year from now I see the strongest Korean players prioritizing international play above GSL
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I've read Xeris's post a handful of times, but I'm not convinced there is some fundamental, all-encompassing "Korean" problem. It just looks like some statements of the obvious difficulties associated with international travel and accommodations in ANY endeavor.
I'm also not sure how the MLG-GSL Exchange Program is therefore "doomed to fail." The argument there is simply "People don't like traveling," which I'm just not sure is remotely true. Many people would be interested in spending a month in Korea for the sake of the experience.
With anything you can be involved in, it's always important to distinguish between "micro-problems" and fundamental problems. These are all micro-problems, like asking GOM to notify you of tournament invitations early enough.
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On May 21 2011 00:51 mprs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 20 2011 22:08 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV? Because they realized foreigners can at least compete (Dimaga beating Nestea, Jinro, Huk, Idra making it to Code S). Not sure if you realize this but... check the VOD views between korean vs korean and foreigner vs korean. You will see quite the discrepancy. The truth is, when a foreigner plays, we all tune in because we want to support him. They want that kind of relationship in their league... countries getting behind their player and what not. It expands their viewers and demographic. It makes perfect sense.
I think you missed my point. :p
Foreigners can compete, on the average-ish Korean level, I'm not denying that. There isn't a single foreign player who could be outstanding, though. Hoping for a foreigner to get to as much as semi-finals of Code S is a stretch, nevermind winning the whole thing. They're decent, but so are dozens of Korean pros who keep getting unlucky during qualifiers. How would DRG feel if Dimaga got a free pass to Code S when he keeps getting knocked out in Code B? How would MMA or MVP feel if you give ThorZain a free invite to Code S just because he won a foreign tourney?
And while what you say about FOREIGN viewers is 'sort of' true - sort of because there's hardly huge spikes even in foreign viewer numbers during events with foreigners in them, it's the fact that this is special events we're talking about, that genuinely draw a bigger audience - you have to remember that GOM doesn't even care that much about foreign viewers - sure it's a nice bonus, but their biggest market, their sponsors etc are in Korea. If you think a few extra thousands americans on their stream make a big difference for a company that's broadcasted on TV during prime hours, I think you're a little off :l
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On May 21 2011 02:27 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 00:51 mprs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 20 2011 22:08 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV? Because they realized foreigners can at least compete (Dimaga beating Nestea, Jinro, Huk, Idra making it to Code S). Not sure if you realize this but... check the VOD views between korean vs korean and foreigner vs korean. You will see quite the discrepancy. The truth is, when a foreigner plays, we all tune in because we want to support him. They want that kind of relationship in their league... countries getting behind their player and what not. It expands their viewers and demographic. It makes perfect sense. I think you missed my point. :p Foreigners can compete, on the average-ish Korean level, I'm not denying that. There isn't a single foreign player who could be outstanding, though. Hoping for a foreigner to get to as much as semi-finals of Code S is a stretch, nevermind winning the whole thing. They're decent, but so are dozens of Korean pros who keep getting unlucky during qualifiers. How would DRG feel if Dimaga got a free pass to Code S when he keeps getting knocked out in Code B? How would MMA or MVP feel if you give ThorZain a free invite to Code S just because he won a foreign tourney? And while what you say about FOREIGN viewers is 'sort of' true - sort of because there's hardly huge spikes even in foreign viewer numbers during events with foreigners in them, it's the fact that this is special events we're talking about, that genuinely draw a bigger audience - you have to remember that GOM doesn't even care that much about foreign viewers - sure it's a nice bonus, but their biggest market, their sponsors etc are in Korea. If you think a few extra thousands americans on their stream make a big difference for a company that's broadcasted on TV during prime hours, I think you're a little off :l
You put up 3 assumptions.
1. Foreigners are worse than Koreans, (Jinro got top 4, Idra stayed in code S every season(with the ladder map pool). Hell MC lost to Thorzain in a BO5 in straight up games.) Jinro wasn't even a top player before Korea. If they don't want S-class foreigners in code S then they can keep on doing what they are doing.
2. Sponsors such as Intel and Coca Cola are American based companies, LG while Korean sell merchandise abroad. I am not sure why they do not want foreigners in GSL to strengthen their brand.
3. The players aren't really getting 1 way deals, Koreans are invited into TSL, injected into MLG etc.
Also SC2 is not as big as you think in Korea, they air on some obscure cable channel and it is not even close to as popular as BW.
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To the OP: I don't know why you labeled it the way you did, but players in Korea wants to come over here to play, but MLG only accepts a certain amount of Korean players. This is different from the GSL, where they let any play as long as they qualify.
Living inside of a house of unknown people and in a different culture isn't hard to adapt to with the fact that you are going to spend most of your time practicing. The food might be different, but most people in Korea understand English.(this is the bad part for some Europeans that doesn't know English)
There will be jet lag if you decide to play in a different country's tournament or GSL, but if you have a commitment to shoot for code A or especially code S you will be spending most of your time there anyway, so after a few days the jet lag will be gone.
Practice partners aren't as hard to find, most of the Korean teams practice with other teams to prepare for events, it is not limited to practicing within their own house. The only problem that could occur with this is if the foreigners don't know how to find other people from another house to practice with, or they don't want to practice with them.
The two solutions you posted, I agree with the second one, but the first one isn't a good idea. Online tournaments can give way to people cheating with third party programs or spectators unless it was done at a certain location in a foreign country.
Your argument seems to be a little one sided and directed at the Koreans, the players from countries outside of Korea aren't forced to stay there (besides the duration of the GSL), so they can leave when ever. When you mentioned revenge on the Koreans for making foreigners play at 3-4 in the morning, they practically do every time they come over to play in foreign tournaments.
When people are required to stay in Korea for the duration of the GSL, it can also be a benefit, so that they don't have to deal with jet lag coming back for every game. This way they really can't complain about jet lag. Just like everything, this is a commitment.
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EPT
