EPTThe Problem with Korea - Page 13
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Stark1
Canada120 Posts
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Flaccid
8843 Posts
![[image loading]](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tiHpULLOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) User was warned for this post | ||
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namedplayer
844 Posts
actually is there A person who is arguably better than top tier Koreans such as mvp, bomber, Nestea? No-_-. Why GOM should pay flights for foreigners(underdogs)? this is most competitive league on earth and if foreigners think they are able to beat top koreans, they should prove that without any support from GOM. | ||
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
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425kid
416 Posts
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Exley
United States239 Posts
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Brian333
657 Posts
If foreigners could win or do well in Korea, nobody would be having this discussion. If foreigners had a realistic shot at winning it all, the majority of foreign pro gamers would have no problems at all with spending a month there. The issue is foreigners can't and we're having this conversation about how better to accommodate them so that they can. I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous. If they don't want to put the work in to be competitive, then too bad. If they aren't good enough to compete, then get good enough to compete. If you don't want to invest yourself in something, you do not deserve the rewards. The work ethic of the majority of foreign SC2 progamers is just pathetic when compared to the Koreans. I'm glad that MLG is setting up this partnership with GOM. I'm happy that the Koreans will have a good chance at dominating MLG and taking up a lot of top spots while foreigners will get only 1 code S / 4 code A spots at best. If they were as good as someone like Bomber, who, once in code A, took all of a few weeks to dominate his way into code S, they would have no problems with being given that spot because code S would only be a few weeks away. The true issue is that for them, it is indeed worthless because they won't be able to do much with it. I'll be happy when foreigners are left with no choice but to step up their work ethic / organization if they want to compete. As it is, it's just a matter of time before it reaches that point. Korean pro-gamers are pressuring GOM to allow them to branch out and sooner than later, the only tournaments left without Koreans will be region restricted ones that will slowly fade out. | ||
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425kid
416 Posts
On May 18 2011 11:21 Duravi wrote: Why not make Code A a 2-3 day tournament so combined with up/down it only lasts a week? Length of time is the biggest problem for Code A, nobody wants to spend a month in it unable to play outside tournaments and looking at a very hard road to Code S. Making Code A 2-3 days makes it more equivalent to MLG in accessibility and generate very high viewer numbers for those three days. It may even cost Gom less money since they would only need to house the foreign players for a week max which would help balance out potential ad revenue lost. This kills the point of gsl. A 2-3 day tournament every month is going to get way less viewers total than a month long tournament with a few weeks break in between. | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
I want to hear from more pros - particularly the ones who declined, on why they declined. Not Idra, we know his feelings. But Dimaga Whitera Morrow all those champions. I'd like an in depth discussion from them on their feeling on this issue. I don't think you'll ever solve the flight cost issue unless you get an airline to sponsor GSL or MLG or both in partnership. That would be ideal if they could provide a dozen free flights every month or two. To me the biggest issue is lack of opportunity in Korea. There just needs to be more tournaments. There needs to be a team league thing which runs the entire year, not just this awesome little 4 day extravaganza we're enjoying atm. The key has to be creating incentive to stay in Korea for more than a month. I do see huge incentive for someone to just go for a few months for the experience. But without GSL success that is short lived. And training on the Korean ladder and with Koreans is clearly not a big enough incentive. Much of these players i assume are in this for the money, which is found in America/Europe, as opposed to actually getting better at the game, which is something they would do in Korea. Easier Money > Challenge and Experience. Not sure what i think about the exchange. I don't feel it solves the Korean issue. It certainly is awesome for me in that i get to see Koreans in MLG. But i really want foreigners in GSL. I know they can compete, but the incentive is too weak and the barriers too big. I also dislike free Code S tickets. One here and there is ok. That's not going to break the system. But too many and it's letting players win a lesser American tournament to gain access into the biggest bestest tournament of them all. I don't feel that foreigners deserve that foot in the door. Jinro and Idra have earned it. No one else has. For me this is a respect issue. I will forever respect Idra and the Liquid players for what they've achieved in GSL, all of them. But some guy winning an MLG and getting a free pass into GSL does not command the same respect to me. It's cheap. I'd like for players to make the choice to go to Korea because Korea itself is a place they want to be. Not because they get a free ticket to free Code S cash and only then do they consider it worth their time. I'd rather have no foreigners in Korea (other than the ones based there legit like Liquid) than have them only go because its made easier to be in GSL than it is for the Koreans themselves. | ||
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KoTakUEurO
605 Posts
On May 18 2011 05:10 ilbh wrote: good read. What can GOM do to help? what if they drasticaly increase the Code A prize pool? would it motivate foreigners to move there? IMO, a prize pool increase would be good, but they couldn't make it drastic. If they gave even the winner of Code A more than a Code S RO32 player, it just wouldn't make sense. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1599 Posts
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: I'll shed some light on the situation, from the perspective of a team leader for a major team, and I'm sure many other teams/organizations/players outside of Korea share the same thought. This article is in response to the GSL Super Tournament Thread, and the PlayXP article about Needing More Foreigners in Korea: The "Korean" Problem I'll start off by saying that the title may not be appropriate, but I couldn't think of a better name for it. The GSL Super Tournament was recently announced, and it was to the community's dismay that only two non Korean players will be participating. This is by choice, there were many foreign players who were invited -- but they all chose not to go. There are several reasons for this, which I will explain. Next, I will go into a bit of detail as to what I believe is the problem, and potentially, how it can be fixed. GSL Super Tournament The Super Tournament is a one month long affair. It begins the week of MLG Columbus. This in itself presents a problem, and GOM tried to fix it by saying "we'll let you play your first round match, then play in MLG, then continue the tournament." The caveat is, GOM does not pay for any of the flights. So think about it: any non Korean's flight cost to Korea is $1,200 - $1,800 most likely. You need a ticket to Korea, then to MLG, and then back to Korea. That's almost $3,000 in flight cost, not to count the massive amount of jet lag that will result and more than likely lead to poor enough play to have anyone who would dare to go through that journey be eliminated early from both tournaments. The second problem is that foreign players were notified of the tournament just about a week and a half ago. Moving to Korea is no small task, there are a LOT of things a team needs to do in order to make a trip to Korea. Funding this trip isn't a simple task, letters and proposals need to be written to sponsors in order to secure extra funding, flights and possibly VISAS need to be arranged, and a plan needs to be planned and executed. The fact that GOM notified foreign players basically three weeks before they would need to actually go to Korea leaves teams and organizations a VERY limited time to make accommodations. Personally, this is why Fnatic decided not to send its players -- we didn't receive enough advance notice to get everything ready. The same thing happened for the GSL World Championships. Everything was so rushed and felt "last minute," and we didn't get enough out of the trip. Sure it's amazing to see foreigners in Korea, and everyone loved all the footage of the pros at the GOM house practicing and having fun, but spectators don't get to see or know about the behind the scenes organizational stuff that makes working with GOM and getting people to Korea really difficult. What can GOM do to help? Notify teams/players far in advance, for starters. If today I got an email from GOM saying that they wanted to include some non Korean teams in the July/August version of the GSTL, it would be really easy for Fnatic to send a team of 4-5 people. Since going to Korea is such a huge move, teams really need more than a few weeks of notice. If we are given 1, 2, or even 3 months of advance notice, I can almost guarantee you'd be seeing more foreign players in the GSL Super Tournament and other future events. Why are the foreigners leaving Korea It's way too difficult to live the Korean life unless you are in Code S. The journey to qualify for Code S is not worth the time and energy it would take to have players live there. Yes, GOM has a "foreign" house, so players wouldn't have to worry about housing, but there are so many other factors to consider: acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. A player who doesn't have good practice partners or schedules will not be successful in Korea. The GOM house doesn't provide this. The house is made available, and then players are left to their own devices to practice. Most of the Korean pro houses are full -- I know because when discussing sending Fnatic players to Korea, the major problem was where/how would the players get good training. We looked into moving into pro houses, but most are full. Spending a lot of money to send people to live in Korea just to practice on the Korean ladder is not productive. The next big problem is that you have to make a lot of sacrifices by living in Korea. In order to play in any foreign events, you have to wake up at 3-4am to participate, unless you play in the few that make crazy schedule allowances for players in Korea. When you factor in: the amount of time it takes getting used to being in Korea and the lack of good practice, prospects look grim. Why sacrifice playing in almost every European/NA event for working through several months to have a shot at getting to Code S? Think of Haypro for example (this is purely speculative about his actual mindset/decisionmaking): he could probably win a majority of the weekly cups on EU/NA -- which could net him probably $500 per week if he was really proactive (or more, just look at the Tournament Wrap Up Threads). That looks pretty appealing to me rather than continuously trying to go through Code A, which is insanely difficult to win. Why don't foreign players come to Korea? The reasons are very similar to what I listed above. Even the GSL/MLG "exchange" program is not going to work. Assuming that non Korean players actually win MLG now, very few of them would actually volunteer to go to Korea as evidenced by the most recent State of the Game episode. Again: giving up playing in European and American events, living in a house of people you don't know and a brand new culture, and needing at least 2-3 GSL events to even be in good enough shape to have a shot at Code S (you're looking at a 6 month commitment to have a realistic shot at doing well in any Korean event)... why would anyone but the most die-hard, such as Jinro and HuK, make that decision. They wouldn't. What can GOM do to help? In my opinion there are two potential solutions here. 1) Make Code A an online tournament. If it was online, foreign participation would increase dramatically. It doesn't even need to be an open system, it could be done entirely on application and GOM could accept only the best/most qualified foreigners who apply. It could also be done during Korean hours and on the Korean server; this could be somewhat of a bittersweet revenge for Koreans, let the foreigners play at 3-4am for a change! This would work because foreigners would only have to worry about going to Korea if they qualified for Code S. 2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S. A good exchange program would be to invite a first placed foreign player at MLG to Code S. This way there is a huge incentive now for a foreigner to actually go to Korea. In fact, as mentioned on State of the Game, a direct Code S invite does appeal a lot more to foreign pros than a Code A invite. This way, you actually get foreigners to Korea -- if they lose in Code S, they might be more tempted to stick around to play through Code A to qualify again for Code S. Getting them directly into Code S is sort of like a "foot in the door" method and might increase the chances of foreigner retention in Korea. What else? Korea is amazing. I've watched all the GSL final events, and love them. The foreign fans love the Korean tournaments. If the GSL wants to become truly global however, more concessions need to be made to make the highest echelons more accessible to foreign players. It can't be a one way street. So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem! If Koreans are continuously invited to foreign events and don't have to qualify, there will be no real incentive for Koreans to give any concessions to foreign players. I'm in no position to gauge the attitude or mindset of the people being GOM/GSL's decisionmaking, but I truly believe that by opening up their tournament format and making it more friendly to foreign players, the GSL will truly achieve its mission statement and be THE global Starcraft 2 tournament. They have made strides by opening up a foreign house, helping to cover costs for the GOM World Championships, and with the idea of the exchange program, but more needs to be done. I think with enough feedback, commentary, and communication with GOM, we can help bridge the gap between Korea and the World, not just in terms of skill, but also in terms of events. MLG is a 3 day tournament. (housing for 3 days) (food for 3 days) GSL is month long. (food+hosing for a month) While MLG is doing more as far as getting the players there, you're asking too much of GOM. If Fnatic was offered a spot in the GSTL even for exposure for it's sponsors I would like a tournament that only lasts what? 2 weeks a sponsor could not only flip the bill, but a dedicated team could get housing and VISAS arranged. As far as making some sort of benefit for those foreigners attempting the reach code S Online Code A is not in the fashion of tournaments for Korea. Giving someone a Code S slot (perhaps, but it would have to be limited to one a season) but then you run into who deserves it? Winner of DreamHack,ESL,IEM,MLG,NASL? Also as far as those who are "behind" as far as acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. I thought having a career made of gaming meant that you don't have time to acclimate to the culture except in off periods, time zone should be fixed relatively shortly if not get sleeping pills, and I don't know where you find better practice than the Korean ladder. I understand it is nice to play against teammates, so why not them have them give you a game on the korean ladder? IMO though it really isn't a good idea to even try for a GOM event anyway unless you are actually the top 2 foreigners. Chances of winning a Code S are very slim. Chances of playing most foreign events are very slim. Foreign sponsors are not necessarily represented as well as they should be. But does this mean that GOM should make it easier for a foreigner to play than a Korean? Said player would be better off joining Liquid or a Korean Team IMO. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1599 Posts
On May 18 2011 12:35 Slusher wrote: Frankly I care less about watching international players than I do about it being live. I know technically there should be no difference but something about live really makes it more exiting for me. Even watching the vods I really just like it better when it's live. there is a reason mlg is my favorite foreign tournament despite it's shortcomings. ?????????????????? ?????? ??? Every event is live except NASL. | ||
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Duravi
United States1205 Posts
This kills the point of gsl. A 2-3 day tournament every month is going to get way less viewers total than a month long tournament with a few weeks break in between. I'm just saying for Code A. Code S would run as normal, the 2-3 day Code A tournament happens a few days before up/down matches would be scheduled. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On May 18 2011 12:46 NoobSkills wrote: ?????????????????? ?????? ??? Every event is live except NASL. TSL games were cast from replays. IPL games were cast from replays as well. | ||
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The_Piper42
United States426 Posts
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Barca
United States418 Posts
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG... I don't see the difference. | ||
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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
On May 18 2011 11:21 Duravi wrote: Why not make Code A a 2-3 day tournament so combined with up/down it only lasts a week? Length of time is the biggest problem for Code A, nobody wants to spend a month in it unable to play outside tournaments and looking at a very hard road to Code S. Making Code A 2-3 days makes it more equivalent to MLG in accessibility and generate very high viewer numbers for those three days. It may even cost Gom less money since they would only need to house the foreign players for a week max which would help balance out potential ad revenue lost. The quality of games and competition when players have time to prepare is always better. Look at the TSL with it's amazing games through the last few rounds. Absolutely some of the best SC2 I've watched up until this point. Meanwhile, lets be honest, most of the games in the MLG were bad. Apart from games from some of the best players running into each other, there was a lot of games where one player lost the game rather than the other player winning, or a lot of cheesey all in games. That doesn't make for the most entertaining thing to watch. Code A this season was excellent. I know people bash on Code A because when it first came out it was very deserving of criticism. There were a lot of horrible players and horrible games. That's not the case anymore. Most of the games and players in Code A this month have been surprisingly amazing. We're beginning to see just how high the level of competition in the GSL is and why this is the pinnacle of SC2 right now. Players have time to prepare, they don't lose to silly shit because they've been staring at a computer screen for 12 hours of the day. That's not taking anything away from any of those short tournaments, they do what they have to. But what makes the GSL the best is that they have those luxuries of being live, being spaced out, and having the production and support to create the show that they put on. Making something a condensed tournament, or sticking it online is really robbing those players of having the best shot they can get at qualifying. And with a tournament with SO MUCH on the line, that would really be cruel. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
1. Code A being online would severely hamper its legitimacy. Just as we've seen Korean players often underperform in online tournaments with the issue of lag constantly hanging over any online tournament (and the ensuing controversy is always a pain), Code A being online would be a similar issue, but instead with the foreign players being affected by lag (assuming it's played on KR which makes sense, since it's a Korean tournament). Online tournaments simply do not match up to LANs. 2. Putting a foreigner into Code S seems like a nice way to help the foreign scene get its foot in the door, but I feel that that's simply massively unfair to Korean players. We've seen how ridiculously difficult it is to even get through Code A qualifiers. To forgo that, and also, getting to the Ro8 in Code A, along with dealing with the Up/Downs, just feels like far too large of a sacrifice in terms of fairness. I have no doubt that many progamers have a huge stake in the GSL. It's not fair to just give a free ticket into Code S, even if it is to an MLG winner or something. I feel that as things are now, finding a solution to the problem lies in Blizzard bettering Battle.net so that lag becomes a non-issue. I never followed BW, but in the midst of the lag discussions following the TSL and NASL games, I've heard many people say that BW didn't have this sort of problem with lag in online games. | ||
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