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On May 18 2011 10:09 ct2299 wrote:
Tyler brings up a good point with the bracket and points. Perhaps Koreans have to advance a certain amount before getting any points?
That should apply to everyone, or just get rid of mlg's championship pool. Its a joke, because they arent even going to the 16 best players and once you get in its a huge advantage for staying in.
This reluctance just hurts the foreign gamers because code s is definitely where the money is. How much have MC, MVP, Nestea, or fruitdealer made compared to the top foreigners that havent gone to korea? Or even some guys who dont get the far like kyrix, Top, Anypro or thewind. I'd bet they have won more since release than every single player who hasnt been in the gsl. If you want to make it big in sc2, take the risk, go to korea and beat the best. If not, then keep winning weekly tournaments for 100 and stop whining.
Gom already has done enough with the free invites for foreigners to Code A. Huk says hi. They provide a house for foreigners so you dont have to worry about accomadations. IM's coach says he wants foreigners on his team so get good enough that he can't say no to you. The opportunity is there. Seize it or dont.
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On May 18 2011 10:14 fush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 10:01 NHY wrote:On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote:
So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem! Where to even begin...actually, I won't. Stop throwing random statements like they mean something. you're nitpicking on a single line from his whole argument which isn't too far off the mark. stop derailing an otherwise useful discussion.
He is saying that is a big problem, not me.
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Xeris, another thing that I would like GOM to do is reduce the Code S top prize by $10K and place that directly into Code A split between top 4 players. This should help a bit more to promote more players coming in. I know if i was a pro foreigner I would hate to go to Korea and know I wont make any money unless I get top 8 in Code S or win Code A.
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There is one key factor that this really boils down to...money. Hate to say it, but it doesn't matter where you are, the best players will go where the money is. If esports becomes as big in the States or Europe as it was in Korea (sponserships and payouts) then the best Korean players would be coming overseas to play, no question. I think GOMTV knows this and that's why the partnership with MLG is so shrewd--they know the big time money is overseas. The partnership does actually award a code S spot. In short, this post isn't really about Korea, it is about premier play. It will come as esports grows in the West.
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i would rather see an open qualifier... even then, the latency might be another problem, but i personally would lose a lot of interest in having a code a online tourney.
Also, to be honest i think that inviting foreigners to code s is a bit much, maybe code a, because if they can't win there first match in code a atleast to stay in, do they really deserve it?
i think that making more strides to be the global tourney is important, but not at the risk of legitimacy, and although i don't know everything about preparing to send players to korea, i think that 2-3 months notice is a bit much to ask.
I agree it would be cool to see more tournaments pop up in korea though, that would definitely make it less of a risky choice for foreigners
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On May 18 2011 07:05 Xeris wrote:
Hey -- you guys are right! I totally forgot that 4 foreign players were invited to Code A. However, I think my point generally still stands.
"There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot."
How would Code A online be horrible? If you want to make an outlandish claim like that you should at least explain it...
i wouldn't say horrible, but i can say that it would personally lessen my interest as a viewer. i watch NASL, but i still consider gsl my go to tourney, and when the NASL finals pop up, i'm going to have a lot more interest in it
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 18 2011 09:34 Kentakky wrote:
If you are succesful in Korea though it would make you more money than any of these foreigner events. The Koreans seem to do fine enough in the NASL as well so if you get used to the latency perhaps you could win even more.
I don't like loser attitude many foreigner pros seem to have like "If koreans come to MLG they'll win it every time" or "If I go to korea there is no chance of me making money =(((" I don't think they are better than foreigner players, maybe some are, but not that big of a gap yet. InCa made it to the GSL finals ffs xD
I do understand though however if you have obligations like work/school casting etc etc or if you just like the foreigner scene more sure stay by all means but don't keep saying it's because you'll just do bad vs koreans that is a terrible attitude to have when playing professionally.
Also it can't be that bad for organizations to have some people over there as the foreigner scene will follow the foreigners like a stalker when they participate in the GSL. I didn't care much for HuK before he went to Korea but now I'm a fan and I give him mad props for staying in Code S, hopefully he'll do well there. Same for Jinro although it's been going worse recently I'll be cheering him on in the Code A.
I agree with you completely. It's like they say it's not worth their time to stay in Korea for a month because most likely they will come out with nothing; which is so sad with that mentality. Winning in Korea gives you the most potential to earn the most prize money. I'd like to see a comparison of the top earners of each month with the foreigners. Looking at the monthly tournament roundup thread, GSL winners make more.
On May 18 2011 10:18 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 09:24 Kazeyonoma wrote:
Go to korea to prove yourself the best, if all you want is money, you don't go. It's as simple as that. If you want to become an sc2 bonjwa, or prove that you're the best of the best, you will go. If right now your priorities are towards making smaller winnings, or finances, than Korea isn't right for you, that's basically what it boils down to. My question is where is the pride in our foreigners. Pride doesn't pay the bills. If you read the Op you'd see more reasons why it's a bit more difficult than just getting on a plane.
You can work at a regular job and make more than some of the top non korean players. You are pretty much sacrificing and dedicating yourself to become a progamer to begin with. Atleast dedicate it for something you can make out better than if you were to work normally. Or you can be in it just for the competition but hopefully it's not for paying the bills.
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On May 18 2011 10:40 illsick wrote:
You can work at a regular job and make more than some of the top non korean players. You are pretty much sacrificing and dedicating yourself to become a progamer to begin with. Atleast dedicate it for something you can make out better than if you were to work normally. Or you can be in it just for the competition but hopefully it's not for paying the bills.
The point is though, why do players go to Korea if they aren't going to make money? So they can play in the best tourney in the world. Why is it the best? Because the absolute best players in the world play in it and value it above all others. Why do they value it above all others? Because the absolute premier players (MC, Nestea, MVP) will make the most money from sponsorship/cash prizes than at any other tournament. It does boil down to money for the best of the absolute frickin best and therefore for everyone else.
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On May 18 2011 10:32 Cartel wrote:
Xeris, another thing that I would like GOM to do is reduce the Code S top prize by $10K and place that directly into Code A split between top 4 players. This should help a bit more to promote more players coming in. I know if i was a pro foreigner I would hate to go to Korea and know I wont make any money unless I get top 8 in Code S or win Code A.
You don't understand, Code S is meant to be the premier league. Unlike a part of the world I won't name specifically, Korea doesn't believe in charity and "everyone being a winner".
The whole purpose of Code A is to win it and get to Code S and fight your way there. Being in Code S already gives you a salary per month.
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People need to stop saying that everyone will turn down the Code A invites. A lot of players like QXC have shown interest in going to Korea. It is easy for the people on SoTG to say they won't go because they have all been to Korea before, but I am sure a lot of the new players who are doing well would love to go. Sure they might miss out on a few tournaments for a month, but it is the experience of going to Korea that counts. Lets see what happens before we jump to conclusions.
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I disagree with code A being an online tournament. Also, part of the superiority of the GSL is that players have to fight hard to get there - that means, each game is very meaningful and tension filled.
However, the problem with the GSL is that if you are eliminated early, there is nothing to do for a whole month. In my opinion, the only to solve this issue is that there are more tournaments run by other organisations.
Also, another thing that will help is if the prizes were more evenly distributed. I feel GSL is too top-heavy.
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I've mentioned this before, but the only real problem I (and many others have noted) see is the lack of other tournaments in Korea. If there was something to bide the time for spending a month in Korea, I wouldn't consider the commitment too great or prize pool for Code A to be too low for instance. Since there isn't really anything outside of hoping for Code S, I really think the MLG/GSL exchange program should only keep the Code S seed and scrap the Code A seeding (I will find it very difficult to believe any of the top 4 who aren't Koreans would bother with that, and "yes" there is a possibility that SOME players like Qxc and maybe even Kiwi would accept the offer, but I can't see it being a consistent thing).
Side note: Code A shouldn't be an online tournament, I agree with others that state one of the key aspects that make GSL so special is that it's a live "LAN" tournament. Heck, it's what makes MLGs and events like Dreamhack just so much more enticing than online events to watch. I think the GSL chose an unfortunate name to call themselves global, I would be perfectly fine if it were the KSL.
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Why not make Code A a 2-3 day tournament so combined with up/down it only lasts a week?
Length of time is the biggest problem for Code A, nobody wants to spend a month in it unable to play outside tournaments and looking at a very hard road to Code S. Making Code A 2-3 days makes it more equivalent to MLG in accessibility and generate very high viewer numbers for those three days. It may even cost Gom less money since they would only need to house the foreign players for a week max which would help balance out potential ad revenue lost.
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Did anybody consider that the best solution to this problem is ....... for Korea to have more sc2 tournaments. If they had more tournaments you would not be giving up on so much to go there, but as it is now you only have GSL if you go there.
How can they get more tournaments? Well sc2 as an esports will have to grow in Korea. I do not know if this is feasible. GSL already produces almost as much content as BW does, and after 10 years BW is probably at a very suitable level of content for this type of game.
In my opinion there are also too many foreign tournaments ... I very much like how it is done in BW. If there could be the equivalent of content for europe/NA in SC2 as the Korea BW I think that would be awesome and then, all this multiculturalism and stuff is just not possible as long as latencies are as high as they are. Gonna have to talk to Bob Kotick about that.
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Also, I think there is a lack of practice in the foreign world compared to Korea. Korea emphasizes heavily on "work very hard" and you will improve, so they practice like 12 hours a day 6 days a week. As for any other foreigner (besides the chinese perhaps), they wont be able to withstand that vigorous training schedule. Look at one of idras interview.. he was so glad he left CJ Entus so he could "practice" at his own pace, which probably meant practice less. I also remember reading Rekrul blog/post somewhere.. goes to korea inspired to be a pro gamer, but ends up playing poker during practice and dragging down players with him.
So its this "extra" practice that gives Koreans the advantage in tournaments and probably the reason they are doing considerably better than all the outsiders. Of course Blizzard made SC2 so noob friendly in order try and get foreigners to get up the the Korean standard, but it still shows.. practice will always preview.. Now all you foreign gamers, here is my strategy that is guarantee to beat Koreans off the top list. Instead of matching their training practice 12 hours a day for 6 days a week, do it for 13 hours a day for 7 days week.
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I think the problem is that there are not many starcraft 2 tournaments in korea atm. Gom really can't do everything on their own.
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On May 18 2011 11:02 iYiYi wrote:
People need to stop saying that everyone will turn down the Code A invites. A lot of players like QXC have shown interest in going to Korea. It is easy for the people on SoTG to say they won't go because they have all been to Korea before, but I am sure a lot of the new players who are doing well would love to go. Sure they might miss out on a few tournaments for a month, but it is the experience of going to Korea that counts. Lets see what happens before we jump to conclusions.
I agree this is a silly point of view of just a few people. Its an all expenses payed trip to play with the best players in the world for one month , sounds alot better than when its coming fromm one of the negative nancies who try and downplay it doesnt it?
With 1 month its not like your giving up that much to go try it out its just a month, you can still participate in the NASL (there are 4 koreans and 1 player from taiwan all in the top 10) so i dont really see it being a huge issue. Especially considering MLG and GSL are working around each others schedules you will beable to attend both.
Its astonishing how many people are trying to turn such a positive thing (koreans and foreigneres interacting) into a hugely negative thing, its really disheartening I hope none of the pro's who would accept going to Korea would change there mind after this huge amount of negativity about it fromm the community.
GSL still has the biggest prize pool out of any tournament regardless of if its top heavy in code s and considerably less top heavy in code a. code a is still a 12,000 dollar prize pool tournament i honestly think that the bottomm 16 should get nothing and that money should be distributed among the top 4, it would mean alot more as 180 dollars for 16 players really isnt anything.
If we all keep being so negative about it, maybe gom wont get many foreigners (i hope something like a hugely negative community wouldnt change their mind but who knows) and thus they will not increase their viewership and then there is no hope for code a to get a better prize pool.
This opportunity from MLG should be looked at as a huge opportunity and all around positive program! It allows foreign players to experience korea all expenses paid and get a chance to see how they stack up to players on the other side of the world, what do you have to lose? You will still beable to do any online tournaments maybe at a bit of a disadvantage but i would argue that the experience is worth it, if you get knocked out in the first round, so be it you got an all expenses paid trip for a week in korea and you can return home to do what you were doing, if you get far and get a chance at code S that is also something positive.
How are people extracting so many negative aspects out of something that seems like such a great opportunity, your only there for a month if you get far in the tournament and the farther you get the bigger the chance you have of reaching code s so that would justify spending a month there, otherwise you leave after a week or 2 if you got knocked out in the first 2 rounds no harm no foul =/ come on guys
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Perhaps the problem is with foreign teams not banding together to start a joint program in S Korea? If EG alone could contemplate starting a team house, would it not be possible for several teams to partner and make a house for the purposes of solving the problems of housing, and practice?
The OP does seem to make it appear the the oGs-Liquid alliance was a one time thing so maybe foreigner joint team house is the only option
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On May 18 2011 11:25 prplhz wrote:
Did anybody consider that the best solution to this problem is ....... for Korea to have more sc2 tournaments. If they had more tournaments you would not be giving up on so much to go there, but as it is now you only have GSL if you go there.
How can they get more tournaments? Well sc2 as an esports will have to grow in Korea. I do not know if this is feasible. GSL already produces almost as much content as BW does, and after 10 years BW is probably at a very suitable level of content for this type of game.
In my opinion there are also too many foreign tournaments ... I very much like how it is done in BW. If there could be the equivalent of content for europe/NA in SC2 as the Korea BW I think that would be awesome and then, all this multiculturalism and stuff is just not possible as long as latencies are as high as they are. Gonna have to talk to Bob Kotick about that.
I dont know if its going to be all the time but another tournament just popped up an LG cinema tournament unrelated to the GSL with a 34,000 dollars prize for the winner there isnt any information translated on it except for in the interview with IMYONGHWA but who knows maybe its a quarterly tournament or something. So new tournaments are in fact popping up i hope more start coming faster though took a while for another decent prize pool tournament to pop up in korea.
Im sure if it does well there is no reason why there wouldnt be another one
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I reckon code A stays the way it is but they have 1 or 2 foreigner spots for code S that are received from 2 online tournies.
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EPT
