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On January 23 2013 00:42 OblivionMage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:29 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. On January 23 2013 00:28 Avean wrote:On January 22 2013 20:32 Scootaloo wrote:
Slasher is literally taking money away from E-sports teams to give to his overlords that coudn't care less about it, if you want him to continue these 2 line bullshit articles for easy pageviews, you must fucking hate E-sports. It doesnt matter if Slasher is taking money from E-sports teams. EG is loosing money on a leaked news article, thats EG's problem and certainly not Slashers! How difficult is it to understand? Slasher wins viewers by releasing the news first, EG wins marketing value by releasing it first. Im really shocked to see people who normally are very smart in discussions like incontrol not seeing this. And Alex Garfield attacking Slasher personally was also really uncalled for. So your point is basically that him being an asshole and only caring about his own profit at the expense of the E-sports scene (which he keeps telling us he loves) is something we should laud and applaud? I really have no idea where your idea comes from, for most of humanity though being a self obsessed asshole is considered a bad thing and grounds for not wanting to associate with those individuals, y'know, because you tend to get fucked over. And another point you miss is that Slasher has a very long history in game journalism which he uses and abuses to get this sort of information, other people havn't leaked stories like this, just him, in other words, either he's the only one who has access to sources like these or other journalists actually give a shit about the prosperity of this scene. And as was posted literally a couple posts before, keeping information like this secret is almost impossible without hiring armies of lawyers and detectives, and even with that companies like Apple can't keep their shit secret. You're saying that Slasher should fail to do his job properly to cover up the mistakes of EG, so that EG can make more money? Slasher does not work for EG. Slasher does not have some obligation to make sure EG can maximize their profit. That's not his job. EG fucked up. If this calamity was so intense it somehow cost EG their team, and they collapsed today because of these leaks, the fault would lie entirely with EG letting the info leak. If all of esports collapsed the next day because EG collapsed, the fault would still lie entirely with EG. Not with a journalist doing his job and publishing information he receives from sources.
Ok, I stated this 3 times before, and many, many people before me but I'll try one more time.
Stopping a company leaking any information is impossible, Apple, who has employees specifically working for this purpose can't keep their information secret.
EG can't even afford constant lawyers and investigators to stop these leaks, yet, you believe, that something that happens to every godamn company is just their fault?
Slasher is not failing his job if he get's exclusive interviews linked in the main anouncement, if he did that though he'd actually have to do work, which he doesn't do anymore because he likes "newsbreaking business".
People are not asking Slasher to stop these reports because they have any issue with meaningful journalism, would he have reported on the Own3d scandal for instance would have been fantastic, that however would have required speaking to more then just a single source and writing an article, spoiling a player transfer is not meaningful, he would have gotten exclusive interviews and would have kept his relations with team CEO's intact, which I think would be of much more value if you actually care enough to do some actual work.
I found it amusing how he admitted he didn't defend himself well on ItG and then did not say a single new thing on LO3, at this point he just comes over to me as the unstable kid that doesn't give a shit if he's spoiling it for everyone else.
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On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS.
I am just... speechless...
Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out.
Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding.
It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2.
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On January 23 2013 00:58 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:42 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:29 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. On January 23 2013 00:28 Avean wrote:On January 22 2013 20:32 Scootaloo wrote:
Slasher is literally taking money away from E-sports teams to give to his overlords that coudn't care less about it, if you want him to continue these 2 line bullshit articles for easy pageviews, you must fucking hate E-sports. It doesnt matter if Slasher is taking money from E-sports teams. EG is loosing money on a leaked news article, thats EG's problem and certainly not Slashers! How difficult is it to understand? Slasher wins viewers by releasing the news first, EG wins marketing value by releasing it first. Im really shocked to see people who normally are very smart in discussions like incontrol not seeing this. And Alex Garfield attacking Slasher personally was also really uncalled for. So your point is basically that him being an asshole and only caring about his own profit at the expense of the E-sports scene (which he keeps telling us he loves) is something we should laud and applaud? I really have no idea where your idea comes from, for most of humanity though being a self obsessed asshole is considered a bad thing and grounds for not wanting to associate with those individuals, y'know, because you tend to get fucked over. And another point you miss is that Slasher has a very long history in game journalism which he uses and abuses to get this sort of information, other people havn't leaked stories like this, just him, in other words, either he's the only one who has access to sources like these or other journalists actually give a shit about the prosperity of this scene. And as was posted literally a couple posts before, keeping information like this secret is almost impossible without hiring armies of lawyers and detectives, and even with that companies like Apple can't keep their shit secret. You're saying that Slasher should fail to do his job properly to cover up the mistakes of EG, so that EG can make more money? Slasher does not work for EG. Slasher does not have some obligation to make sure EG can maximize their profit. That's not his job. EG fucked up. If this calamity was so intense it somehow cost EG their team, and they collapsed today because of these leaks, the fault would lie entirely with EG letting the info leak. If all of esports collapsed the next day because EG collapsed, the fault would still lie entirely with EG. Not with a journalist doing his job and publishing information he receives from sources. Ok, I stated this 3 times before, and many, many people before me but I'll try one more time. Stopping a company leaking any information is impossible, Apple, who has employees specifically working for this purpose can't keep their information secret. EG can't even afford constant lawyers and investigators to stop these leaks, yet, you believe, that something that happens to every godamn company is just their fault? Slasher is not failing his job if he get's exclusive interviews linked in the main anouncement, if he did that though he'd actually have to do work, which he doesn't do anymore because he likes "newsbreaking business". People are not asking Slasher to stop these reports because they have any issue with meaningful journalism, would he have reported on the Own3d scandal for instance would have been fantastic, that however would have required speaking to more then just a single source and writing an article, spoiling a player transfer is not meaningful, he would have gotten exclusive interviews and would have kept his relations with team CEO's intact, which I think would be of much more value if you actually care enough to do some actual work. I found it amusing how he admitted he didn't defend himself well on ItG and then did not say a single new thing on LO3, at this point he just comes over to me as the unstable kid that doesn't give a shit if he's spoiling it for everyone else.
I agree Slasher did a poor job defendig his point of view (and journalism). But he also didn't know they were gonna talk about his journalism and not journalism and eSports in general. I suggest u watch Climbing the ladder with ChanmanV if u want a wider view of the topic. Slasher was there just befor ehe went on ITG. It also shows that it is debatable if the "leaking journalism" as they refer to it, actually does any damage to the eSport industry since the teams get more attention from other sites debating it and giving it hype that way.
I can also say that I have never been on EGs website as many times as around the roumers about Stepahno going there. I was on EGs site many times waiting for them to confirm it.
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On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS.
I am sure EG can stick up for themselves and will be far more aggressive in the future. I am sure they and other teams will have no problem dealing with Slasher and limiting the information he will be able to get. The discussion is more about if Slasher should have a completely confrontational relationship with the teams. As a professional in a confrontational field(law), I think it is a bad practice. Even attorneys on opposite sides of cases try to avoid doing things that would directly cost the other firm money, even thought they are opposing each other in court. The attorneys who do try to screw over other law offices and extend no professional courtesy are widely disliked and generally considered hacks.
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On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS.
This isn't specific to EG. This discussion obviously has been brought about because of EG specific situations but the principal is the same for pretty much most teams in eSports. How do you think teams get their money right now to pay for plane tickets, hotels, food, lodging and everything else required to run a team? They don't get it by selling tickets to their stadiums (they don't have them), they don't get it from selling broadcast rights to their matches, they get very little by selling jerseys and such (not nearly enough to cover the operation of a team). It's not that the teams are poorly structured, it's that the eSports industry as a whole is completely different from mainstream sports, and Slasher is trying to treat it as such. In the process of doing that he's hurting the very industry that he's working for. I'm not trying to say that Slasher will cripple the entire eSports scene by himself but he definitely contributes to hurting it when he takes value and exposure away from the sponsors that make it possible.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
There will be a show today!
We will discuss: Religion, abortion, politics and gay marriage
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On January 23 2013 01:45 iNcontroL wrote:
There will be a show today!
We will discuss: Religion, abortion, politics and gay marriage
Yay!
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On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2.
I understand your viewpoint but have to disagree, like you said every company - even the largest with the best lawyers - have information leaks. Yes this is how the world operates, for better or for worse. Its about how you handle the situations when they arise and also ensuring that you do everything to minimise leaks occurring. This is the playing field for every company in the world to one degree or another (assuming of course that people are interested in the information that is leaked, Joes bakery launching a new robot cake would be an example of: so what, leave it to their marketing dept.)
The only difference in this situation is that the EG guys know Slasher personally, therefore EG feel that they can also abuse their personal relationship with Slasher by publicly criticising him. EG need to learn to wash their dirty laundry in private, just one more example of them doing things in public (which Im not questioning their feelings or motives, I would feel the same if I owned EG or Liquid) which should have been done in private.
Clever companies and businesses have very close relationships with the press (if critical to their business) and if this wasn't personal, then why wasnt this a phone call from Alex to someone at Gamespot asking for a meeting to discuss how the organisations can work better in the future for mutual benefit? So ask yourself what would have happened if the person who reported this wasn't Slasher and didn't have a personal relationship with EG?
I doubt that we would have had the post from Nazgul if this hadnt been done in public, bringing all this attention to the subject.
Anyway, as ever its all a bit of a storm in a teacup and hopefully will blow over as both sides were doing their jobs and protecting their interests. Its on EG to minimise leaks and not Slasher to stop looking for news.
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On January 23 2013 01:45 iNcontroL wrote:
There will be a show today!
We will discuss: Religion, abortion, politics and gay marriage
Pumped! You should discuss taxes and the role of goverment as well. Keep that drama train going right off the cliff.
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On January 23 2013 01:45 iNcontroL wrote:
There will be a show today!
We will discuss: Religion, abortion, politics and gay marriage
Huzzah! Can't wait!
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On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2.
There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting.
Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway.
On January 23 2013 01:36 Achaia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. This isn't specific to EG. This discussion obviously has been brought about because of EG specific situations but the principal is the same for pretty much most teams in eSports. How do you think teams get their money right now to pay for plane tickets, hotels, food, lodging and everything else required to run a team? They don't get it by selling tickets to their stadiums (they don't have them), they don't get it from selling broadcast rights to their matches, they get very little by selling jerseys and such (not nearly enough to cover the operation of a team). It's not that the teams are poorly structured, it's that the eSports industry as a whole is completely different from mainstream sports, and Slasher is trying to treat it as such. In the process of doing that he's hurting the very industry that he's working for. I'm not trying to say that Slasher will cripple the entire eSports scene by himself but he definitely contributes to hurting it when he takes value and exposure away from the sponsors that make it possible.
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it.
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On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it.
Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out.
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On January 23 2013 01:49 CursedRich wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. I understand your viewpoint but have to disagree, like you said every company - even the largest with the best lawyers - have information leaks. Yes this is how the world operates, for better or for worse. Its about how you handle the situations when they arise and also ensuring that you do everything to minimise leaks occurring. This is the playing field for every company in the world to one degree or another (assuming of course that people are interested in the information that is leaked, Joes bakery launching a new robot cake would be an example of: so what, leave it to their marketing dept.) The only difference in this situation is that the EG guys know Slasher personally, therefore EG feel that they can also abuse their personal relationship with Slasher by publicly criticising him. EG need to learn to wash their dirty laundry in private, just one more example of them doing things in public (which Im not questioning their feelings or motives, I would feel the same if I owned EG or Liquid) which should have been done in private. Clever companies and businesses have very close relationships with the press (if critical to their business) and if this wasn't personal, then why wasnt this a phone call from Alex to someone at Gamespot asking for a meeting to discuss how the organisations can work better in the future for mutual benefit? So ask yourself what would have happened if the person who reported this wasn't Slasher and didn't have a personal relationship with EG? I doubt that we would have had the post from Nazgul if this hadnt been done in public, bringing all this attention to the subject. Anyway, as ever its all a bit of a storm in a teacup and hopefully will blow over as both sides were doing their jobs and protecting their interests. Its on EG to minimise leaks and not Slasher to stop looking for news.
I'm not saying EG handled this situation well, as you say, they should have had this discussion in private, from what I gather from Alex Garfield though he already has on numerous times, it's mostly the ItG staff that wanted to hear his opinions live and I guess Alex patience with Slasher eroded, I personally found his terrible defence while refusing to acknowledge any points made rather annoying as well.
And although leaking information is a problem for every company, it is a far greater problem for an E-sports based company because that is for a great part what they thrive on for income, it is very difficult to believe Slasher saying he likes E-sports while at the same time completely ignoring the damage he does for the sake of his journalistic integrity and him not enjoying writing articles anymore.
If these leaks where even remotely important, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but this is just purely Slasher releasing these short messages for his own gain, at the expense of the teams he's screwing over, when he finds out about some scandal and CEO's want to isolate him, I'll be the first to defend the guy, but this is just lazy, trashy journalism purely for self profit.
You ask me what would happen if anyone but Slasher did this, the big joke there is that noone has, Slasher has something of a history with the industry that other journalists lack and that he abuses to get this information.
The gains:
people know about this news 2 days before from a incredibly uninformative post
Slasher/Gamespot get's some more views
The cons:
teams lose money from sponsorships and ads
teams have to start heavily safeguarding these secrets, possibly having to spend more money for lawyers, NDA's and investigators, not something that's positive for team morale either
At the end of the day, everyone but Slasher and Gamespot loses.
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On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out.
Exactly, they can be as self interested as the businesses they are reporting on. If they are costing the teams so much money that the teams are forced to black list them and demand events limit their access, it is bad for both the journalist, the teams and us. There is a huge difference between asking for special treatment and saying “if you are going to fuck me over, expect me to do the same to you.”
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On January 23 2013 01:45 iNcontroL wrote:
There will be a show today!
We will discuss: Religion, abortion, politics and gay marriage
Religion? Phah, most gamers are atheists.
Abortion? They don't get laid.
Politics? Well, everyone gets mad at politics.
Gay marriage? Any sex is sex for gamers...
If you want to piss of this community, you need to try harder. You might have to discuss the role of LoL in competitive gaming. Or a-moving workers in a meaningless match. Or which game is the best game of all time. Or, *gasp*, what is more esports than anything else. That's what gamers get passionate about.
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On January 23 2013 01:45 iNcontroL wrote:
There will be a show today!
We will discuss: Religion, abortion, politics and gay marriage
Do we have a special guest tonight? Maybe Obama?
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On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway.
Where are you getting no benefit from? Having an exclusive interview on the damn release page is a major accomplishment in this bussiness, and what was offered to him, he however had no interest, because he doesn't like doing interviews anymore.
A single person can bring any team down, in the case of EG and Slasher this is obviously not going to happen ofcourse, what if Slasher's next leak is on a team not doing this well, and it loses them a sponsorship for seeming unprofessional, which eventually brings the whole house of cards down?
I find it hard to imagine you believe that if Slasher doesn't outright kill a company, whatever damage he does is fine, BECAUSE JOURNALISM.
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On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out.
Did you seriously just compare journalists to assassins? Journalists have a responsibility to the public to report information they uncover on the record in a timely fashion. That's it. How is that a nuisance to you? What's "bunk" about it? Woodward and Bernstein caused Nixon harm when they uncovered Watergate... Would you rather that have all been swept under the rug?
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On January 23 2013 02:21 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out. Did you seriously just compare journalists to assassins? Journalists have a responsibility to the public to report information they uncover on the record in a timely fashion. That's it. How is that a nuisance to you? What's "bunk" about it? Woodward and Bernstein caused Nixon harm when they uncovered Watergate... Would you rather that have all been swept under the rug?
Are you seriously comparing Slasher reporting about a player transfer to Watergate?
Wow. Just wow.
Journalistic integrity is only applicable when it is warranted, this news has about the importance of a tabloid article, especially if done in such an unproffesional way, or to paraphrase TotalBiscuit, worse then what retarded kittens could produce.
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On January 23 2013 02:21 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out. Did you seriously just compare journalists to assassins? Journalists have a responsibility to the public to report information they uncover on the record in a timely fashion. That's it. How is that a nuisance to you? What's "bunk" about it? Woodward and Bernstein caused Nixon harm when they uncovered Watergate... Would you rather that have all been swept under the rug?
Wait, did you just bring up Water Gate as an argument why Slasher should be leaking signing to Esports teams? I don’t think the two rate on the same level of importance and it is a real straw man argument to bring it up. And if you think that the people who reported on Water Gate didn’t have a very very very long discussion on if they should publish the information, you are mistaken. Watch “Good Night and Good Luck”, if you want to see how carefully reporters question what they are reporting and the harm it can do to them for doing it.
If Slasher wants to leak every little piece of information he gets, great. But he better be prepared for all the teams and leagues to protect themselves by making his life as hard as possible. And there is no question that would be bad for everyone involved.
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