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On January 23 2013 02:20 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway. Where are you getting no benefit from? Having an exclusive interview on the damn release page is a major accomplishment in this bussiness, and what was offered to him, he however had no interest, because he doesn't like doing interviews anymore. A single person can bring any team down, in the case of EG and Slasher this is obviously not going to happen ofcourse, what if Slasher's next leak is on a team not doing this well, and it loses them a sponsorship for seeming unprofessional, which eventually brings the whole house of cards down? I find it hard to imagine you believe that if Slasher doesn't outright kill a company, whatever damage he does is fine, BECAUSE JOURNALISM.
Do you know the difference in page views between breaking news and an interview? This isn't Lance Armstrong admitting to doping, it's a guy switching teams, thanking sponsors, expressing well wishes to people for the opportunity and old teammates. Breaking hard news is vastly more important than a soft human interest piece because it brings more views and is actual information. That type of interview is just the exact same thing over and over again.
Here's the real difference in our opinions: Esports and/or teams are a "house of cards." I want the foundation strengthened, some glue applied, and the whole thing to be made more sturdy. You just want to leave it as is and hope nobody tries to blow it over.
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On January 23 2013 02:27 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:21 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out. Did you seriously just compare journalists to assassins? Journalists have a responsibility to the public to report information they uncover on the record in a timely fashion. That's it. How is that a nuisance to you? What's "bunk" about it? Woodward and Bernstein caused Nixon harm when they uncovered Watergate... Would you rather that have all been swept under the rug? Are you seriously comparing Slasher reporting about a player transfer to Watergate? Wow. Just wow. Journalistic integrity is only applicable when it is warranted, this news has about the importance of a tabloid article, especially if done in such an unproffesional way, or to paraphrase TotalBiscuit, worse then what retarded kittens could produce.
There is nothing "unprofessional" about what Slasher does. That's you using a buzzword to augment a weak argument.
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On January 23 2013 02:21 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out. Did you seriously just compare journalists to assassins? Journalists have a responsibility to the public to report information they uncover on the record in a timely fashion. That's it. How is that a nuisance to you? What's "bunk" about it? Woodward and Bernstein caused Nixon harm when they uncovered Watergate... Would you rather that have all been swept under the rug?
theres a difference between uncovering things and getting a jump on headlines
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Guys, recall what TB said on this issue. Before looking for things that hurt esports, look into yourself. There's still a ton of ad hominem and otherwise shoddy argumentation in this thread. (The substance of which I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole so leave me out of it.) Isn't a week enough time to lay the arguments to rest and to start looking forward to the next show?
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On January 23 2013 02:20 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway. Where are you getting no benefit from? Having an exclusive interview on the damn release page is a major accomplishment in this bussiness, and what was offered to him, he however had no interest, because he doesn't like doing interviews anymore.A single person can bring any team down, in the case of EG and Slasher this is obviously not going to happen ofcourse, what if Slasher's next leak is on a team not doing this well, and it loses them a sponsorship for seeming unprofessional, which eventually brings the whole house of cards down? I find it hard to imagine you believe that if Slasher doesn't outright kill a company, whatever damage he does is fine, BECAUSE JOURNALISM.
If you would visit gamespot you would see that there are also interviews.
I also doubt that exclusive interviews are so much more valuable for gamespot. There are probably more people interested in the breaking news than in some 'exclusive' interview that is not really exclusive because the team has most likely done one before and posted it already.
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On January 23 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:21 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out. Did you seriously just compare journalists to assassins? Journalists have a responsibility to the public to report information they uncover on the record in a timely fashion. That's it. How is that a nuisance to you? What's "bunk" about it? Woodward and Bernstein caused Nixon harm when they uncovered Watergate... Would you rather that have all been swept under the rug? Wait, did you just bring up Water Gate as an argument why Slasher should be leaking signing to Esports teams? I don’t think the two rate on the same level of importance and it is a real straw man argument to bring it up. And if you think that the people who reported on Water Gate didn’t have a very very very long discussion on if they should publish the information, you are mistaken. Watch “Good Night and Good Luck”, if you want to see how carefully reporters question what they are reporting and the harm it can do to them for doing it. If Slasher wants to leak every little piece of information he gets, great. But he better be prepared for all the teams and leagues to protect themselves by making his life as hard as possible. And there is no question that would be bad for everyone involved.
How is it a straw man? What am I misdirecting or burning down? I said journalists make information public. That is all. I've studied journalism for years - you don't rate information based on importance, you just get it out there. Slasher knew his sources were correct, and he did just that.
P.S. if you want to learn more about Watergate, read All the President's Men.
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On January 23 2013 02:33 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:20 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway. Where are you getting no benefit from? Having an exclusive interview on the damn release page is a major accomplishment in this bussiness, and what was offered to him, he however had no interest, because he doesn't like doing interviews anymore. A single person can bring any team down, in the case of EG and Slasher this is obviously not going to happen ofcourse, what if Slasher's next leak is on a team not doing this well, and it loses them a sponsorship for seeming unprofessional, which eventually brings the whole house of cards down? I find it hard to imagine you believe that if Slasher doesn't outright kill a company, whatever damage he does is fine, BECAUSE JOURNALISM. Do you know the difference in page views between breaking news and an interview? This isn't Lance Armstrong admitting to doping, it's a guy switching teams, thanking sponsors, expressing well wishes to people for the opportunity and old teammates. Breaking hard news is vastly more important than a soft human interest piece because it brings more views and is actual information. That type of interview is just the exact same thing over and over again. Here's the real difference in our opinions: Esports and/or teams are a "house of cards." I want the foundation strengthened, some glue applied, and the whole thing to be made more sturdy. You just want to leave it as is and hope nobody tries to blow it over.
So basically, you think Esports teams and the press, like Slasher, should a completely confrontational relationship where the teams zealously try to protect every piece of information from getting to them? That press is totally justified in reporting on any piece if information they feel will get them page views, regardless of how much damage that it may do to the teams? And that it is the teams responsibility to prevent them from getting this information, even if it means denying them interviews and pushing events like NASL to limit the reporter’s access?
Because if that sounds like the worst professional relationship someone would have, regardless of profession.
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On January 23 2013 01:45 iNcontroL wrote:
There will be a show today!
We will discuss: Religion, abortion, politics and gay marriage
finally, less drama on the show.
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On January 23 2013 02:48 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:45 iNcontroL wrote:
There will be a show today!
We will discuss: Religion, abortion, politics and gay marriage finally, less drama on the show.
What about gun control?
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On January 23 2013 02:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:33 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 02:20 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway. Where are you getting no benefit from? Having an exclusive interview on the damn release page is a major accomplishment in this bussiness, and what was offered to him, he however had no interest, because he doesn't like doing interviews anymore. A single person can bring any team down, in the case of EG and Slasher this is obviously not going to happen ofcourse, what if Slasher's next leak is on a team not doing this well, and it loses them a sponsorship for seeming unprofessional, which eventually brings the whole house of cards down? I find it hard to imagine you believe that if Slasher doesn't outright kill a company, whatever damage he does is fine, BECAUSE JOURNALISM. Do you know the difference in page views between breaking news and an interview? This isn't Lance Armstrong admitting to doping, it's a guy switching teams, thanking sponsors, expressing well wishes to people for the opportunity and old teammates. Breaking hard news is vastly more important than a soft human interest piece because it brings more views and is actual information. That type of interview is just the exact same thing over and over again. Here's the real difference in our opinions: Esports and/or teams are a "house of cards." I want the foundation strengthened, some glue applied, and the whole thing to be made more sturdy. You just want to leave it as is and hope nobody tries to blow it over. So basically, you think Esports teams and the press, like Slasher, should a completely confrontational relationship where the teams zealously try to protect every piece of information from getting to them? That press is totally justified in reporting on any piece if information they feel will get them page views, regardless of how much damage that it may do to the teams? And that it is the teams responsibility to prevent them from getting this information, even if it means denying them interviews and pushing events like NASL to limit the reporter’s access? Because if that sounds like the worst professional relationship someone would have, regardless of profession.
If you want to have an exclusive hyped up release, keeping the paparazzi off the case is the first priority. The reporter's job isn't to be liked by the teams he's reporting on; it's to report the news he discovers and nothing more. This nonsense about asking reporters to forgo their own best interests just to help out a team with some hype is ridiculous.
If teams are reliant on secretive announcements that they can't keep secret to survive, then they aren't sustainable. It's not some third party's job to keep them alive. They should be keeping themselves alive like every other business in the world does.
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On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway. Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:36 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. This isn't specific to EG. This discussion obviously has been brought about because of EG specific situations but the principal is the same for pretty much most teams in eSports. How do you think teams get their money right now to pay for plane tickets, hotels, food, lodging and everything else required to run a team? They don't get it by selling tickets to their stadiums (they don't have them), they don't get it from selling broadcast rights to their matches, they get very little by selling jerseys and such (not nearly enough to cover the operation of a team). It's not that the teams are poorly structured, it's that the eSports industry as a whole is completely different from mainstream sports, and Slasher is trying to treat it as such. In the process of doing that he's hurting the very industry that he's working for. I'm not trying to say that Slasher will cripple the entire eSports scene by himself but he definitely contributes to hurting it when he takes value and exposure away from the sponsors that make it possible. Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it.
That's a bit of an ignorant stance. Journalism, in essence, is similar between industries because obviously they are trying to report news on whatever the given industry is. However, the financial structure of an industry and how it works is completely different. By saying that eSports should conform to the structure of regular sports without any of the infrastructure in place that's required to support that model you are ignoring the current infrastructure that's keeping the industry alive.
How do you suggest teams make money other than sponsors and selling gear? These are the primary ways that teams make money right now with the sponsor support being the primary reason that teams even exist. I don't understand how you can just say that it should be the same and negate that information? To take EG for example, they are one of the best teams at giving their sponsors exposure, which is why they are one of the most successful teams in this space. How can you then say that they have a bad model because their exposure for their sponsors includes the big announcements they plan for team changes?
Also, I don't think that they're expecting the "rest of the world" to conform to it, they're just asking for some help from journalists to co-exist in this space in a mutually beneficial way. It also just so happens that Slasher is the only one in this position from a journalistic perspective so it makes sense to broach the subject now so hopefully the scene can continue to grow.
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Also, I don't think that they're expecting the "rest of the world" to conform to it, they're just asking for some help from journalists to co-exist in this space in a mutually beneficial way. It also just so happens that Slasher is the only one in this position from a journalistic perspective so it makes sense to broach the subject now so hopefully the scene can continue to grow.
Except it's not really mutually beneficial. It benefits the team in question without any real incentive for the journalist. If Slasher got the same or greater benefit from doing exclusive interviews, he'd do them. He's certainly shown the ability. But he doesn't, so we can only assume that breaking hyped up headlines garners him more pageviews than a really well put together interview. So when you say that the teams want him to work with them for a mutually beneficial relationship, what you're really saying is that you want Slasher to voluntarily help out the teams while simultaneously losing out on his most reliable source of pageviews. I'm not sure how that's mutually beneficial. Maybe it's not ideal for that abstract thing we call "eSports," but it's certainly well within Slasher's rights and best interests to break the news.
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On January 23 2013 02:41 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On January 23 2013 02:21 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out. Did you seriously just compare journalists to assassins? Journalists have a responsibility to the public to report information they uncover on the record in a timely fashion. That's it. How is that a nuisance to you? What's "bunk" about it? Woodward and Bernstein caused Nixon harm when they uncovered Watergate... Would you rather that have all been swept under the rug? Wait, did you just bring up Water Gate as an argument why Slasher should be leaking signing to Esports teams? I don’t think the two rate on the same level of importance and it is a real straw man argument to bring it up. And if you think that the people who reported on Water Gate didn’t have a very very very long discussion on if they should publish the information, you are mistaken. Watch “Good Night and Good Luck”, if you want to see how carefully reporters question what they are reporting and the harm it can do to them for doing it. If Slasher wants to leak every little piece of information he gets, great. But he better be prepared for all the teams and leagues to protect themselves by making his life as hard as possible. And there is no question that would be bad for everyone involved. How is it a straw man? What am I misdirecting or burning down? I said journalists make information public. That is all. I've studied journalism for years - you don't rate information based on importance, you just get it out there. Slasher knew his sources were correct, and he did just that. P.S. if you want to learn more about Watergate, read All the President's Men.
Your attempting to take reporting on signings of players Esports teams and comparing it to reporting a sitting President knowingly conspiring to commit crimes to obtain information on his political rivals. I don’t think don’t think the misdirection argument is that far off. Journalist are expected to have discretion and professional judgment on what they publish. If they obtain the failing grades of the President’s daughter, I would hope to god they would not publish that information. We are not saying that Slasher is wrong for publishing the leaked information he received. We are saying that it is shitty judgment and it harming teams for his own benefit, while providing limited benefit to the public as a whole. In most cases, he is paraphrasing the team’s own press release and reporting on it a couple days early. I feel pretty justified by saying that is pretty low quality journalism.
P.S. I also have a BA in history with a focus in Modern America and European politics. I am pretty well versed in Watergate.
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On January 23 2013 01:36 Achaia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. This isn't specific to EG. This discussion obviously has been brought about because of EG specific situations but the principal is the same for pretty much most teams in eSports. How do you think teams get their money right now to pay for plane tickets, hotels, food, lodging and everything else required to run a team? They don't get it by selling tickets to their stadiums (they don't have them), they don't get it from selling broadcast rights to their matches, they get very little by selling jerseys and such (not nearly enough to cover the operation of a team). It's not that the teams are poorly structured, it's that the eSports industry as a whole is completely different from mainstream sports, and Slasher is trying to treat it as such. In the process of doing that he's hurting the very industry that he's working for. I'm not trying to say that Slasher will cripple the entire eSports scene by himself but he definitely contributes to hurting it when he takes value and exposure away from the sponsors that make it possible.
I'd say if anything, Slasher is redistributing the pie, not shrinking it. It's not like he's reporting for some anti-gaming agency.
Even so, his responsibility is toward his job first. Now, in the long run, it may be better for him to play "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine," all of which Alex Garfield, TB, and Liquid'`Nazgul have essentially said.
Comparisons to mainstream are pretty valid, imo, but they do have their limits. Slasher may be the closest thing to a "big time" esports journalist for SC2, but unlike one in mainstream sports, he's not very powerful. On one hand, I value the freedom of press thing, and on the other, there is always reality to consider. A long term goal may be trying to increase the influence of esports journalists, especially his, but you have to be careful how hard you push. You're in a position where organizations can push back harder.
As far as that goes, I wonder if, because of this whole controversy, Slasher may have a harder time finding sources in the future, regardless of whether there's any overt attempt to blacklist him. Slasher having a lot of public support doesn't really help the esports worker bee who is easily replaceable if he's caught giving Slasher information. In other words, the damage has probably been done. People understand who has power, and if their actual job is on the line, ideals or the desire to be a source take a backseat to survival.
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Wow. I knew Incontrol & co were good at creating drama, but this has been fuming for a week now, thats more than even I expected. I though this was a pretty uninteresting drama-detour. I I really hope they dont talk too much about it today!
We always ask for more "real" stuff about the game, and less drama.
I'm starting to think that its drama we're really after 
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On January 23 2013 02:41 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On January 23 2013 02:21 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 02:03 Winterfell wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:
Journalism is journalism is journalism. The rules don't vary by industry. Esports existed before SC II and even BW, and it will continue to exist if and when SC II goes the way of the dodo, and journalists will document the entire arc. The point is that if the business model for one team is reliant upon information that is "impossible" to protect, that team needs to get a different model, not expect the rest of the world to conform to it. Journalists make this argument all the time, and it's bunk. The same arguments apply to murder-for-hire, or telemarketing, or any other industry, right, wrong, evil, or good. Just because it's what journalists DO, or that it's within the rules they've set for themselves, does not mean that it is good or right, or that we can't call them out on doing harm. If that's the way the industry is - then do it differently or get out. Did you seriously just compare journalists to assassins? Journalists have a responsibility to the public to report information they uncover on the record in a timely fashion. That's it. How is that a nuisance to you? What's "bunk" about it? Woodward and Bernstein caused Nixon harm when they uncovered Watergate... Would you rather that have all been swept under the rug? Wait, did you just bring up Water Gate as an argument why Slasher should be leaking signing to Esports teams? I don’t think the two rate on the same level of importance and it is a real straw man argument to bring it up. And if you think that the people who reported on Water Gate didn’t have a very very very long discussion on if they should publish the information, you are mistaken. Watch “Good Night and Good Luck”, if you want to see how carefully reporters question what they are reporting and the harm it can do to them for doing it. If Slasher wants to leak every little piece of information he gets, great. But he better be prepared for all the teams and leagues to protect themselves by making his life as hard as possible. And there is no question that would be bad for everyone involved. How is it a straw man? What am I misdirecting or burning down? I said journalists make information public. That is all. I've studied journalism for years - you don't rate information based on importance, you just get it out there. Slasher knew his sources were correct, and he did just that. P.S. if you want to learn more about Watergate, read All the President's Men.
You dont rate information after importance in America? That may explain weird things such as FOX news hehe, in the rest of the world we try to get important information out!
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On January 23 2013 02:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:46 Plansix wrote:On January 23 2013 02:33 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 02:20 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway. Where are you getting no benefit from? Having an exclusive interview on the damn release page is a major accomplishment in this bussiness, and what was offered to him, he however had no interest, because he doesn't like doing interviews anymore. A single person can bring any team down, in the case of EG and Slasher this is obviously not going to happen ofcourse, what if Slasher's next leak is on a team not doing this well, and it loses them a sponsorship for seeming unprofessional, which eventually brings the whole house of cards down? I find it hard to imagine you believe that if Slasher doesn't outright kill a company, whatever damage he does is fine, BECAUSE JOURNALISM. Do you know the difference in page views between breaking news and an interview? This isn't Lance Armstrong admitting to doping, it's a guy switching teams, thanking sponsors, expressing well wishes to people for the opportunity and old teammates. Breaking hard news is vastly more important than a soft human interest piece because it brings more views and is actual information. That type of interview is just the exact same thing over and over again. Here's the real difference in our opinions: Esports and/or teams are a "house of cards." I want the foundation strengthened, some glue applied, and the whole thing to be made more sturdy. You just want to leave it as is and hope nobody tries to blow it over. So basically, you think Esports teams and the press, like Slasher, should a completely confrontational relationship where the teams zealously try to protect every piece of information from getting to them? That press is totally justified in reporting on any piece if information they feel will get them page views, regardless of how much damage that it may do to the teams? And that it is the teams responsibility to prevent them from getting this information, even if it means denying them interviews and pushing events like NASL to limit the reporter’s access? Because if that sounds like the worst professional relationship someone would have, regardless of profession. If you want to have an exclusive hyped up release, keeping the paparazzi off the case is the first priority. The reporter's job isn't to be liked by the teams he's reporting on; it's to report the news he discovers and nothing more. This nonsense about asking reporters to forgo their own best interests just to help out a team with some hype is ridiculous. If teams are reliant on secretive announcements that they can't keep secret to survive, then they aren't sustainable. It's not some third party's job to keep them alive. They should be keeping themselves alive like every other business in the world does.
I did not say that in any way. I don't think the major teams are going to have any trouble because of Slasher's reporting. I do think, after reading some of his leaked information, that the reporting is poor quality and is one step above paraphrasing the teams press release for signing a new member. Because of that, I can see why the teams are tired of it.
People are confusing the whole "helping esports" argument with the teams just sticking up for themselves. As Naz'gul put it, Slasher is badly managing his relationships with teams. He requests interviews with team members, but then fucks over the team the instant he gets leaked information. There is nothing morally wrong with that, but no one can expect that the teams are going to put up with it or want to deal with him if he does.
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On January 23 2013 02:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:46 Plansix wrote:On January 23 2013 02:33 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 02:20 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway. Where are you getting no benefit from? Having an exclusive interview on the damn release page is a major accomplishment in this bussiness, and what was offered to him, he however had no interest, because he doesn't like doing interviews anymore. A single person can bring any team down, in the case of EG and Slasher this is obviously not going to happen ofcourse, what if Slasher's next leak is on a team not doing this well, and it loses them a sponsorship for seeming unprofessional, which eventually brings the whole house of cards down? I find it hard to imagine you believe that if Slasher doesn't outright kill a company, whatever damage he does is fine, BECAUSE JOURNALISM. Do you know the difference in page views between breaking news and an interview? This isn't Lance Armstrong admitting to doping, it's a guy switching teams, thanking sponsors, expressing well wishes to people for the opportunity and old teammates. Breaking hard news is vastly more important than a soft human interest piece because it brings more views and is actual information. That type of interview is just the exact same thing over and over again. Here's the real difference in our opinions: Esports and/or teams are a "house of cards." I want the foundation strengthened, some glue applied, and the whole thing to be made more sturdy. You just want to leave it as is and hope nobody tries to blow it over. So basically, you think Esports teams and the press, like Slasher, should a completely confrontational relationship where the teams zealously try to protect every piece of information from getting to them? That press is totally justified in reporting on any piece if information they feel will get them page views, regardless of how much damage that it may do to the teams? And that it is the teams responsibility to prevent them from getting this information, even if it means denying them interviews and pushing events like NASL to limit the reporter’s access? Because if that sounds like the worst professional relationship someone would have, regardless of profession. If you want to have an exclusive hyped up release, keeping the paparazzi off the case is the first priority. The reporter's job isn't to be liked by the teams he's reporting on; it's to report the news he discovers and nothing more. This nonsense about asking reporters to forgo their own best interests just to help out a team with some hype is ridiculous. If teams are reliant on secretive announcements that they can't keep secret to survive, then they aren't sustainable. It's not some third party's job to keep them alive. They should be keeping themselves alive like every other business in the world does.
What other journalists are you talking about? The only one that does leaks like this is Slasher because he's the only one with the connections, as proven before, keeping information like this completely secret is almost impossible when you don't have a team of dedicated employees working to make sure of it, and even then it happens.
What you don't seem to understand is that with this approach the teams and Slasher basically become enemies, Slasher doesn't give a fuck if using information hurts these teams, so the teams have to make sure everyone that works for them knows Slasher is the enemy, whereas, as I understand it, Slasher used to be friends with many people working for or heading these teams.
E-sports is new and needs to grow, if people arn't willing to treat it differently then for instance the sport industry, it will die.
This idiotic caveman attitude of "If it can't grow it clearly must die" is just pathetically outdated, especially if you say yourself that you enjoy this content, I guess caring about and protecting something is just not something you do?
Which is also the idiocy with Slasher, he says he loves E-sports, but doesn't give a fuck when he damages it because it's easy publicity for him.
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More importantly, is there a show tonight ? =)
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On January 23 2013 02:41 Uracil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:20 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 01:57 Reedjr wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 Scootaloo wrote:On January 23 2013 00:50 OblivionMage wrote:On January 23 2013 00:45 Achaia wrote:On January 23 2013 00:18 OblivionMage wrote:On January 22 2013 06:54 Acasta wrote:
Releasing such news beforehand is therefore bad for the teams, the players, and ultimately for E-sports.
And this is why EG and other teams are angry at Slasher: Because he only thought of himself and his profit, and not of the teams, and the "greater goal".
but that's slasher's job. he doesn't work for EG, he doesn't get paid by EG, he gets paid by GameSpot to be a journalist. what if he didn't leak the info and someone else did (after it had obviously been leaked to some extent)? he would get nothing, gamespot would get nothing, and he wouldn't be doing his job well. he has no obligation to EG, to the players of EG, or to 'esports' -- he only should care about his job. The argument that was voiced against that stance is that his leak announcements for things like player signings and such that are meant to bring positive attention towards teams and their sponsors actually hurt the sponsors that are vital to this industry continuing to grow and thrive because he reduces their exposure by stealing that news from the teams. If Slasher hurts sponsors enough by taking away this exposure with his early leaks he is basically destroying the job that he has. There has to be a compromise where he can continue to report and be a good journalist without actually hurting the industry that employs him. You say that he doesn't have any obligation to eSports, but if eSports takes a major dive because of the hits sponsors take from things like this do you really think Gamespot would still employ him to cover an underground scene? Probably not. So yes, he does have an obligation to the eSports scene if he wants to keep his job long term. Also, if there are as many teams that are banding together to block him from interviews and such I imagine that it will be difficult for him to keep his job once he has run out of sources. You can only burn people so many times before no one will talk to you because you're an asshole. If EG is going to have their business ruined by journalists leaking information (as it is such a big deal, you note in your post), then they should have their business ruined. It's clearly a poorly thought-out business. We should not coddle companies because they're involved in ESPORTS. I am just... speechless... Why are you even on this site if you don't give a fuck about E-sports? Get out. Without this coddling you're talking about, these teams would not exist, if fans didn't donate money, buy shirts and bought sponsor items, it would literally collapse, like the numerous teams that have already disbanded due to lack of funding. It might perhaps be a poorly thought out business model, however, it's about the only way to go when you actually want E-sports (without it being the a national sport like in Korea ofcourse), perhaps you're fine with Teams dying and the scene collapsing, but the majority of Team Liquid actually wants to see Starcraft 2. There's a difference between supporting and coddling. If I want to go out and buy a TL or EG jersey, I can, just like I can go out and by my favorite football player's jersey. Paying one of my favorite streamers a few bucks a month is worth it because I don't want to watch ads on that stream and maybe get a little chat badge or other extras. I've personally bought Razer products with an email saying "thanks for supporting Team Liquid, it really influenced my purchase." This is supporting. Assuming that an entire industry is above the basic responsibilities of journalism is coddling. Demanding that anyone should actively avoid doing his/her job for literally no benefit (and some detriment) is just foolish. If Esports or EG is so fragile that a single person can take it down by doing his/her job who has no ill will towards them, it's probably going to fail anyway. Where are you getting no benefit from? Having an exclusive interview on the damn release page is a major accomplishment in this bussiness, and what was offered to him, he however had no interest, because he doesn't like doing interviews anymore.A single person can bring any team down, in the case of EG and Slasher this is obviously not going to happen ofcourse, what if Slasher's next leak is on a team not doing this well, and it loses them a sponsorship for seeming unprofessional, which eventually brings the whole house of cards down? I find it hard to imagine you believe that if Slasher doesn't outright kill a company, whatever damage he does is fine, BECAUSE JOURNALISM. If you would visit gamespot you would see that there are also interviews. I also doubt that exclusive interviews are so much more valuable for gamespot. There are probably more people interested in the breaking news than in some 'exclusive' interview that is not really exclusive because the team has most likely done one before and posted it already.
Gamespot not giving a fuck about any form of integrity is well known and documented, they basically use crooked reviews as a method of funding the site.
If you in any way or form prefer money going to Gamespot instead of an E-sports team, you should probably be on their forums.
I agree that leaking is better for Gamespot, but that basically turns Slasher into a mindless Gamespot crony that can be trusted just as much as the site, Slasher has to understand there is more to his job then getting a quick pat on the back from his boss for burning his bridges with team CEO's.
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