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On January 16 2013 20:31 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:23 Kishin2 wrote:On January 16 2013 20:02 DwD wrote:
Since when is it the journalist responsibility to keep secret business info? It's all on the team. If they don't want it released, sort your team out. Slasher has an employee, frankly I doubt he cares about the EG team. He answers to his employer and he has to provide what he was hired to do.
It's not the journalist's responsibility. It's the responsibility of someone in e-sports that wants to see it grows'. There were 2routes slasher could have chosen. The first is where he waits until EG make the official announcement and redirect people then. In this case, EG makes a profit of say x and Gamespot makes a profit of say y. The second route is where slasher did what he did here and prematurely released information. In this case EG makes a profit of .3x while Gamespot makes a profit of 4y. It's e-sports. There's an ethical part of it all. Why is EG e-Sports and GameSpot not e-Sports?
No, Gamespot is e-Sports as well. But they're gaining money at another e-Sports organization's (EG) loss. E-sports would grow overall if the amount of money Gamespot gained was greater than the sum of what they both would have gained if slasher didn't leak plus the amount EG lost (4y > 1.7x + y). It's unlikely that this is so, therefore it would've been more profitable for e-sports as a whole had slasher not published the information. Both organizations can make money from outside of e-sports and bring it in. That's why what slasher did was bad.
Edit: I didn't state it but we're assuming that the money generated (x and y) comes from sources outside e-sports (sponsors, us as consumers, etc.)
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On January 16 2013 20:35 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:30 Angelbelow wrote:
You disagree with the deliver sure, but surely you can see that they're both asking him to:
1. stop leaking information
2. hold yourself to a higher standard and provide better content
Once again, what Slasher's doing isn't "leaking." The "leaking" is done by the legitimate holders of the information who share it with people who aren't trusted (who might be people other than Slasher.) Second, admonishing Slasher to "hold [him]self to a higher standard" is precisely the kind of moral judgment that Alex was making that TB was not. TB was suggesting that Slasher consider the impact of his choices on the community as part of his decision about whether to write about information. Alex was taking the position that Slasher's doing so was somehow ethically wrong. Telling someone to "hold themselves to a higher standard" is an ethical judgment like Alex's, not a pragmatic analysis like TB's.
Okay, how would you choose to word what Slasher did with the information that he had.
On your 2nd point, Alex tells Slasher that there are a lot of things that he could be doing to provide better content and to return to a standard that people are used to. Again the deliver may be questionable. TB says that he is disappointed that Slasher doesn't always put the effort in on his articles. And then proceeds to suggest the same things that Alex suggested. Basically telling him to step up his game or produce at a standard that people are used to. That's my interpretation.
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On January 16 2013 20:42 seiferoth10 wrote:
He was arguing some for his team, but some hypothetically, where a smaller team would indeed see a noticeable decline in ad revenue because of a broken story.
Presumably the smaller team would either control their story better or lose the ad revenue. It's not as though these benefits are guaranteed to anyone! Also, you don't have to be too much smaller than EG before your ad revenue becomes insignificant.
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On January 16 2013 20:38 Lysenko wrote:
If they didn't need to control the information, then why did they get so upset and complain about all the downsides when their story wound up in the view of the public before their announcement?
They didn't need to control information before since no one would leak it in a way that would harm them. They're upset because someone did leak it in a way that harmed them. They probably now need to be more strict in their information.
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when companies try to tell journalists how they should do there job... oh my...
stop bitching. change your tampon and UP YOUR GAME! ...as always.
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On January 16 2013 20:44 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:42 seiferoth10 wrote:
He was arguing some for his team, but some hypothetically, where a smaller team would indeed see a noticeable decline in ad revenue because of a broken story. Presumably the smaller team would either control their story better or lose the ad revenue. It's not as though these benefits are guaranteed to anyone! Also, you don't have to be too much smaller than EG before your ad revenue becomes insignificant.
Smaller teams can still fall victim to competing parties breaking leaking news out of jealousy/spite. And you somehow completely cast off smaller teams like their interests aren't worth addressing, when it's them that will feel the biggest impact from this situation.
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On January 16 2013 20:42 Angelbelow wrote:
Okay, how would you choose to word what Slasher did with the information that he had.
He's a journalist. He published information he got from either people who leaked or people who had received leaks.
On your 2nd point, Alex tells Slasher that there are a lot of things that he could be doing to provide better content and to return to a standard that people are used to. Again the deliver may be questionable. TB says that he is disappointed that Slasher doesn't always put the effort in on his articles. And then proceeds to suggest the same things that Alex suggested. Basically telling him to step up his game or produce at a standard that people are used to. That's my interpretation.
The difference between the two is a matter of degree and tone, sure. However, Alex is clearly mainly judging Slasher's ethics while TB is making a case about what serves his interests, even if there's some overlap in the entire discussions.
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On January 16 2013 20:47 seiferoth10 wrote:
Smaller teams can still fall victim to competing parties breaking leaking news out of jealousy/spite. And you somehow completely cast off smaller teams like their interests aren't worth addressing.
I sympathize with them, but that doesn't mean that I believe that someone in Slasher's position should embrace their issues as his own.
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On January 16 2013 20:48 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:47 seiferoth10 wrote:
Smaller teams can still fall victim to competing parties breaking leaking news out of jealousy/spite. And you somehow completely cast off smaller teams like their interests aren't worth addressing. I sympathize with them, but that doesn't mean that I believe that someone in Slasher's position should embrace their issues as his own.
I agree. Slasher can disregard their opinion and do what he wants, and the teams can disregard Slasher as a trusted news outlet and enact an information embargo on him.
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On January 16 2013 20:42 Kishin2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:31 Ribbon wrote:On January 16 2013 20:23 Kishin2 wrote:On January 16 2013 20:02 DwD wrote:
Since when is it the journalist responsibility to keep secret business info? It's all on the team. If they don't want it released, sort your team out. Slasher has an employee, frankly I doubt he cares about the EG team. He answers to his employer and he has to provide what he was hired to do.
It's not the journalist's responsibility. It's the responsibility of someone in e-sports that wants to see it grows'. There were 2routes slasher could have chosen. The first is where he waits until EG make the official announcement and redirect people then. In this case, EG makes a profit of say x and Gamespot makes a profit of say y. The second route is where slasher did what he did here and prematurely released information. In this case EG makes a profit of .3x while Gamespot makes a profit of 4y. It's e-sports. There's an ethical part of it all. Why is EG e-Sports and GameSpot not e-Sports? No, Gamespot is e-Sports as well. But they're gaining money at another e-Sports organization's (EG) loss. E-sports would grow overall if the amount of money Gamespot gained was greater than the sum of what they both would have gained if slasher didn't leak plus the amount EG lost (4y > 1.7x + y). It's unlikely that this is so, therefore it would've been more profitable for e-sports as a whole had slasher not published the information. Both organizations can make money from outside of e-sports and bring it in. That's why what slasher did was bad.
Sophistry.
Slasher's job is to bring views to Gamespot. He has a written contract that he will do so. He has a moral obligation to fufill his half of the bargain. That it could theoretically hurt e-Sports isn't his problem, especially since a.) It was equally likely to help e-sports by your logic, and b.) If someone else published it, then EG isn't hurt any less, but Gamespot, whom he is obligated to report for would've been
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On January 16 2013 20:50 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:48 Lysenko wrote:On January 16 2013 20:47 seiferoth10 wrote:
Smaller teams can still fall victim to competing parties breaking leaking news out of jealousy/spite. And you somehow completely cast off smaller teams like their interests aren't worth addressing. I sympathize with them, but that doesn't mean that I believe that someone in Slasher's position should embrace their issues as his own. I agree. Slasher can disregard their opinion and do what he wants, and the teams can disregard Slasher as a trusted news outlet and enact an information embargo on him.
You're absolutely right, although a team that's trying to avoid a leak has to worry about more than their own personal conversations with Slasher. They have to ask, for example, whom they upset this week? 
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On January 16 2013 20:52 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:50 seiferoth10 wrote:On January 16 2013 20:48 Lysenko wrote:On January 16 2013 20:47 seiferoth10 wrote:
Smaller teams can still fall victim to competing parties breaking leaking news out of jealousy/spite. And you somehow completely cast off smaller teams like their interests aren't worth addressing. I sympathize with them, but that doesn't mean that I believe that someone in Slasher's position should embrace their issues as his own. I agree. Slasher can disregard their opinion and do what he wants, and the teams can disregard Slasher as a trusted news outlet and enact an information embargo on him. You're absolutely right, although a team that's trying to avoid a leak has to worry about more than their own personal conversations with Slasher. They have to ask, for example, whom they upset this week?
Exactly, and at the end of this road (when he's pissed off enough organizations) Slasher can only publish rumors and hearsay, and spiteful sources, destroying any credibility he had. Like.... tabloids! And we all know how awesome those are. Which lends credence to why AG and TB urged him to focus on investigative journalism and to take exclusive content when he can get it.
Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I don't see anything wrong with either situation, community is overreacting as usual.
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Some of you are getting worked up for the wrong reasons. Alex (nor TB, nor InControl) was NOT calling into question Slasher's "right" to publish this news. Those of you who are defending his right are missing the point. Both TB and Alex's point (and HuK's surprisingly reasonable analysis on twitter) is that there are different kinds of journalism, and Slasher needs to figure out what role he wants to fulfill. He can be a tabloid writer and be relatively ostracized from certain teams, or he can produce better content and work with the teams. Alex was frustrated and angry at what he saw was a decline into lazy tabloid journalism, and TB for the most part shared his views but was much more reasonable.
It might be the best choice for him though, considering the fact that he though Flash was on SKT T1
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On January 16 2013 20:51 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:42 Kishin2 wrote:On January 16 2013 20:31 Ribbon wrote:On January 16 2013 20:23 Kishin2 wrote:On January 16 2013 20:02 DwD wrote:
Since when is it the journalist responsibility to keep secret business info? It's all on the team. If they don't want it released, sort your team out. Slasher has an employee, frankly I doubt he cares about the EG team. He answers to his employer and he has to provide what he was hired to do.
It's not the journalist's responsibility. It's the responsibility of someone in e-sports that wants to see it grows'. There were 2routes slasher could have chosen. The first is where he waits until EG make the official announcement and redirect people then. In this case, EG makes a profit of say x and Gamespot makes a profit of say y. The second route is where slasher did what he did here and prematurely released information. In this case EG makes a profit of .3x while Gamespot makes a profit of 4y. It's e-sports. There's an ethical part of it all. Why is EG e-Sports and GameSpot not e-Sports? No, Gamespot is e-Sports as well. But they're gaining money at another e-Sports organization's (EG) loss. E-sports would grow overall if the amount of money Gamespot gained was greater than the sum of what they both would have gained if slasher didn't leak plus the amount EG lost (4y > 1.7x + y). It's unlikely that this is so, therefore it would've been more profitable for e-sports as a whole had slasher not published the information. Both organizations can make money from outside of e-sports and bring it in. That's why what slasher did was bad. Sophistry. Slasher's job is to bring views to Gamespot. He has a written contract that he will do so. He has a moral obligation to fufill his half of the bargain. That it could theoretically hurt e-Sports isn't his problem, especially since a.) It was equally likely to help e-sports by your logic, and b.) If someone else published it, then EG isn't hurt any less, but Gamespot, whom he is obligated to report for would've been
If he's a member of e-sports that wants to see it grow, then he has another moral obligation to not do anything that could be of detriment to that growth. Morals conflict, I suppose.
By my logic it's less likely to help e-sports, but not impossible. I don't think there's a good chance that the amount of money Gamespot would receive, 4y, would end up being greater than .7x + x + y. Going with x + y is more likely to help.
Gamespot wouldn't be hurt because they wouldn't have lost any money if slasher had not done what he did. Gamespot would make y amount. Because slasher etc., EG went from making x -> .3x. This is less money for EG so thus, they were hurt. Gamespot just wouldn't be maximizing their profit. And even now, from what TB said, it's questionable as to whether it's going to end up more profitable in the long-run.
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On January 16 2013 20:59 zefreak wrote:
Some of you are getting worked up for the wrong reasons. Alex (nor TB, nor InControl) was NOT calling into question Slasher's "right" to publish this news. Those of you who are defending his right are missing the point. Both TB and Alex's point (and HuK's surprisingly reasonable analysis on twitter) is that there are different kinds of journalism, and Slasher needs to figure out what role he wants to fulfill. He can be a tabloid writer and be relatively ostracized from certain teams, or he can produce better content and work with the teams. Alex was frustrated and angry at what he saw was a decline into lazy tabloid journalism, and TB for the most part shared his views but was much more reasonable.
It might be the best choice for him though, considering the fact that he though Flash was on SKT T1
This is not what he said at all.
It was basicly a 20 minute rant on how slasher should be a PR bitch for the teams, and know his place in esports as a servent of them.
"Dont steal our clicks brah"
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On January 16 2013 20:47 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:42 Angelbelow wrote:
Okay, how would you choose to word what Slasher did with the information that he had. He's a journalist. He published information he got from either people who leaked or people who had received leaks. Show nested quote +On your 2nd point, Alex tells Slasher that there are a lot of things that he could be doing to provide better content and to return to a standard that people are used to. Again the deliver may be questionable. TB says that he is disappointed that Slasher doesn't always put the effort in on his articles. And then proceeds to suggest the same things that Alex suggested. Basically telling him to step up his game or produce at a standard that people are used to. That's my interpretation. The difference between the two is a matter of degree and tone, sure. However, Alex is clearly mainly judging Slasher's ethics while TB is making a case about what serves his interests, even if there's some overlap in the entire discussions.
I think its hard to come to that conclusion because Alex and Slasher has had this discussion "many" times. To the best of my knowledge, this is a fairly new discussion topic between TB and Slasher. We simply don't know the relationship or the context of the situation. It sounds like Alex and Slasher have quite the history, and as friends too. If they've had repeated discussions over this, its not difficult to see why Alex quickly went from constructive to demeaning.
With that said, I don't blame you for seeing that way, because that VOD is the information that we DO have. I personally thought that Alex was madder than he needed to be, but I don't see any malicious intent from him either.
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On January 16 2013 21:09 Dotq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:59 zefreak wrote:
Some of you are getting worked up for the wrong reasons. Alex (nor TB, nor InControl) was NOT calling into question Slasher's "right" to publish this news. Those of you who are defending his right are missing the point. Both TB and Alex's point (and HuK's surprisingly reasonable analysis on twitter) is that there are different kinds of journalism, and Slasher needs to figure out what role he wants to fulfill. He can be a tabloid writer and be relatively ostracized from certain teams, or he can produce better content and work with the teams. Alex was frustrated and angry at what he saw was a decline into lazy tabloid journalism, and TB for the most part shared his views but was much more reasonable.
It might be the best choice for him though, considering the fact that he though Flash was on SKT T1 This is not what he said at all. It was basicly a 20 minute rant on how slasher should be a PR bitch for the teams, and know his place in esports as a servent of them. "Dont steal our clicks brah"
Only it is exactly what he said, which is why he kept asking why he didn't write quality content anymore like ESFI etc
But hey, jump on the reddit hate-train because they are always reasonable, right
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If people tell stuff they shouldn't tell to any "journalist" tell it, off all possible persons, to Slasher they want it to be "out there"... The other explanation would be that they are dumb, incompetent or at the very least extremely naive...
Btw: Live on 3 feels like a pure EG propaganda show... Wasn't this show a long time ago supposed to be more than "listen to EG + Friend bitch about EG drama + Shouting at another "famous" person which has another opinion + dumb call ins"?.
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So I'm just getting around seeing the actual VOD after pausing it on and off in between and it's actually the arguments here reiterated. Cool.
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On January 16 2013 21:09 Dotq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:59 zefreak wrote:
Some of you are getting worked up for the wrong reasons. Alex (nor TB, nor InControl) was NOT calling into question Slasher's "right" to publish this news. Those of you who are defending his right are missing the point. Both TB and Alex's point (and HuK's surprisingly reasonable analysis on twitter) is that there are different kinds of journalism, and Slasher needs to figure out what role he wants to fulfill. He can be a tabloid writer and be relatively ostracized from certain teams, or he can produce better content and work with the teams. Alex was frustrated and angry at what he saw was a decline into lazy tabloid journalism, and TB for the most part shared his views but was much more reasonable.
It might be the best choice for him though, considering the fact that he though Flash was on SKT T1 This is not what he said at all. It was basicly a 20 minute rant on how slasher should be a PR bitch for the teams, and know his place in esports as a servent of them. "Dont steal our clicks brah"
That's actually what they are saying. Problem with Garfield is how he was speaking about the ethics or morality of slasher, when it has nothing to do with this, but what kind of journalist is he going to be. Something that TB manages to get through, because he is not personally involved (that's the problem when you are on a EG show, talking about EG problems). I disagree with the hate against Slasher, but it's true that its up to him to decide what kind of journalist he wants to be and how the teams will react to him.
Talking about "damaging esports" blabla, is just retarded talk. And to be honest, this podcast is like "real madrid's tv channel retardation at this point".
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EPT
