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On October 24 2012 10:23 kinglemon wrote:
it all boils down to that people like destiny are willing to step one step back to maybe open room to step two steps forward.
people like idra, incontrol, artosis and doa are not willing to do that.
they feel too comfortable right now.
and one thing:
if activision is responsible for financing the sc2 department, when they see that there is a lot of bad press going on they might want to step it up to save it.
when they see that everyone is loving each other in that scene and everyone is hyped for hots, why should they change anything ?
and that incontrol rant on destinys post was really embarrassing.
You do realise that 1: sc2 for activision/blizzard probably doesn't mean shit in terms of money. 2 : Only a smaller % or people who still play multiplayer care about esports. So yeah do the math and ask yourself why they do not care about reddit posts and twitter hashtags even if it's by the thousands
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I can't believe that wheat was yelling about Destiny being immature with Idra and incontrol literally high fiving each other after an equally immature line.
I never thought I'd lose respect for wheat, but it happened.
And then the arguing that everything is fine and dandy, while also arguing blizzard could be doing better, while also staring at the 50-60% drop off in viewership? Their argument is completely confused. And then to argue that the community disagrees with destiny's point? It's like they live in their own special world.
I have to stop watching these shows.
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I think it is complete bullshit that they are shitting on Destiny for trying to do something, anything to get Blizzard's attention when they acknowledge everything he said is a problem and yet Blizzard isn't making any more than token efforts to address them. Then they have the gall to mock the community's pitiful attempts to help things, tweeting, etc, as being ineffectual, when the same method they've been proclaiming to be "THE RIGHT WAY" has accomplished jack and shit itself. At some point, if you want to effect real change, maybe you have to make some waves. If no one with any real influence is gong to do anything about it I guess the community will just have to continue with the pitiful, ineffective methods you guys seem to take so much glee in making fun of.
I'm not even a Destiny fan but it's about time someone tried to get this community to try and do something about this, and it clearly isn't going to be the people on this show.
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Canada16217 Posts
On October 24 2012 10:34 tribulator wrote:
I can't believe that wheat was yelling about Destiny being immature with Idra and incontrol literally high fiving each other after an equally immature line.
I never thought I'd lose respect for wheat, but it happened.
And then the arguing that everything is fine and dandy, while also arguing blizzard could be doing better, while also staring at the 50-60% drop off in viewership? Their argument is completely confused. And then to argue that the community disagrees with destiny's point? It's like they live in their own special world.
I have to stop watching these shows.
I think you are completely misunderstanding.
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Amazing that incontrol and idra said they've given up on Blizzard doing anything while admitting that SC2 viewers are down while LoL viewers are (way) up (and that total viewers are up (like that means anything at all)). They're saying that SC2 is totally doomed unless HotS does something to stop the viewer bleed. Then, they berate Destiny for 'going all-in on Blizzard', and for 'being negative' (yeah, they're being totally positive, guys).
Are they completely retarded? At least Destiny is trying to change something instead of sitting on his EG salary bragging about getting a raise while bragging about his 'debate background'. Unbelievable behavior from Incontrol, I held him in higher regard.
Painuser was reasonable, as always, and djWHEAT was too emotionally invested to really say much.
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Yeah, I feel like Destiny has the right idea, and those other guys with the exception of Painuser were being pretty bad.
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On October 24 2012 10:34 tribulator wrote:
I can't believe that wheat was yelling about Destiny being immature with Idra and incontrol literally high fiving each other after an equally immature line.
I never thought I'd lose respect for wheat, but it happened.
And then the arguing that everything is fine and dandy, while also arguing blizzard could be doing better, while also staring at the 50-60% drop off in viewership? Their argument is completely confused. And then to argue that the community disagrees with destiny's point? It's like they live in their own special world.
I have to stop watching these shows. Ever thought maybe wheat didn't see the high 5?
Also that is such a silly thing to lose respect for someone over. Its almost like you had little to no respect for him to begin with...
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On October 24 2012 10:32 walklightwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 10:13 Nabes wrote:On October 24 2012 10:12 neurosx wrote:On October 24 2012 10:09 JPSke wrote:
As a fan of SC2 this show was incredibly depressing.
The fact that you guys are willing to accept Blizzard's bullshit and go so far as to take a dump on people who are tired of this ridiculous lack of responsiveness.....I dunno. You guys are building your careers around this game, a game that could be promoted and much more accessible to more people if only Blizzard would hold up their end of the bargain, and yet you just accept that your complaints accomplish nothing. It seems like you've accepted that what you consider to be the right way to interact with Blizzard in the hopes of making progress isn't going to work, yet you are actively shitting on people who believe its time to take a more proactive approach. And yes, I know, tweeting at Blizzard isn't going to do it. Neither is a big post on Reddit. But if all the big people within the SC2 scene get together and demand change? That might have an impact. But no, you guys are just going to continue on, accept the pitiful support Blizzard is giving this game, and let the game stagnate.
This community is the best competitive community in existence, and the fact that it continues to decline in comparison to others primarily due to those games making advances and focusing on their customers...it's sad. You say the negativity is harmful, but it is more harmful to just accept this. I promise you if all the influential members within the community banded together to get Blizzard to be a little more responsive it would energize everyone, it would be a story, it would grow the community just by pulling it together with a common cause. And yet you guys seem to think any public sort of complaint, which is honestly the only way to apply any sort of pressure whatsoever to Blizzard, is the wrong way to go about doing things. I just don't get it.
I've been here since SC2 launched, and I watch a lot more than I play now. But if the community is just going to accept being second rate it may be time for me to move on. I just don't understand how the people most directly impacted by the situation are willing to take such a laissez faire attitude. In Brood War putting your head down and saying "we'll make it work" was one thing, but E-Sports has arrived, and accepting that SC2 is going to be a minor player going forward in the scene just because Blizzard won't get off their ass and support the game is incomprehensible to me. You can bash Destiny for crying wolf, but at least the guy is willing to state that this is a real problem, one that has a major impact on the viability of SC2 going forward. It's time someone said it, even if he didn't go about doing it the way you would have. The thing you don't get is that, there could be a forum post with 4500 pages, they still wouldn't do shit about it so the argument is moot from the beginning. WE CAN'T HOPE FOR BLIZZARD TO FIX IT. So what do you suggest we as a community do? we already have high quality tournaments, what else is there to do? There is plenty to do. Tournaments are far from perfect. Coverage is far from perfect. We have a great base right now. But there is still work to do. Its about building on that base, perfecting what we are doing. Just because LoL is bigger doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Its a joke that Destiny even talks about it that way. And talking about Dota.... I love Dota, but it has a ways to go until it is on sc2's level. Yeah they got great viewership for TI2. Half from China though. And without China for the SL3 finals, arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament right now, they had 60k viewers. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that EG pays Stephano as much as their entire Dota 2 squad actually. Every esport has a ton of work to do. I think a lot of people see what Riot is doing since they control everything and hopes that Blizzard just does it cause its easier that way. This is the point. There is so much more that people can do than say "If Blizzard doesn't fix this or this, SC2 is dead". Yes you can crticize Blizzard, and you should if you don't like something, but there are other things that everybody involved in this community can do. Which is the crux of what IdrA and Incontrol were saying.
Exactly. Destiny often complained about how there are close positions on ladder maps and at Blizzcon since they used ladder maps. Yeah so we have to deal with it on ladder. But in play that actually matters, this doesn't happen. Its a fix the community implemented. Just like depots at the bottom of ramps.
We know Blizzard maps suck, so we use custom made maps by people that know what they are doing. Just like Korea did with BW! The community has always been coming up with ways to fix the shortcomings that Blizzard has given us. Yeah it would be awesome if Blizzard just fixed them all. But to just roll over and give up unless Blizzard fixes them is a joke. Blizz will give us some and we will deal with the rest ourselves. Its what we have been doing for 2 years and despite this doom and gloom bullshit, things have been going pretty damn well.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 24 2012 10:06 Nabes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:04 Laryleprakon wrote:On October 24 2012 09:50 Fionn wrote:
Is the NBA going to die because the NFL is four/five times bigger?
The whole argument is stupid. Its sad more people don't understand this  except the fact that the NBA has nothing to improve upon where there is a million fixes for starcraft 2. bad analogy is bad.
What are you talking about? The NBA has tons to improve on and have tried year after year. They've tried to make their players wear suits and look presentable at all times so that sponsors don't look at them like thugs or gangsters. They added in a new silly rule this week that makes teams only have 90 seconds to do pre-game ceremonies and preparations to make the game less long.
The whole argument of SC2 dying seems to pend on it being the #1 e-sport in the world. It isn't. If this was the case, fighting games, FPS, and other competitive gaming would be completely dead. SC2 steamrolled Halo last year at MLG and pretty much forced them into a corner of the event instead of the main stage. They aren't close to SC2 in numbers, but they aren't dead.
I think it's ridiculous to say something is dying when there was a report yesterday that Blizzard sold out a 10,000+ venue for the Global Finals. If you want SC2 to become the #1 e-sport and overtake LoL, then I'd honestly say to just stop watching now and make believe it's dead. The only way SC2 is going to beat LoL is if it becomes F2P, is easier to play for casuals and doesn't take hours each day to keep your condition in form, and all that jazz.
Blizzard introduced the worker counter and people went up in arms, saying that it was TERRRRRIBLE and made it too easy. For SC2 to become the most watched e-sport, then there is going to be worker counters and a lot more piled upon that. If that happens, then the hardcore fans are going to whine that Blizzard went too far, and they wish they were back in the small hardcore clique they used to be in.
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On October 24 2012 10:39 jmbthirteen wrote:
Its what we have been doing for 2 years and despite this doom and gloom bullshit, things have been going pretty damn well.
That's a great philosophy while in decline: Just keep going! We can last another year guys, like, at least! Maybe two! Omg! So much StarCraft 2 ahead of us!
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On October 24 2012 10:36 JPSke wrote:
I think it is complete bullshit that they are shitting on Destiny for trying to do something, anything to get Blizzard's attention when they acknowledge everything he said is a problem and yet Blizzard isn't making any more than token efforts to address them. Then they have the gall to mock the community's pitiful attempts to help things, tweeting, etc, as being ineffectual, when the same method they've been proclaiming to be "THE RIGHT WAY" has accomplished jack and shit itself. At some point, if you want to effect real change, maybe you have to make some waves. If no one with any real influence is gong to do anything about it I guess the community will just have to continue with the pitiful, ineffective methods you guys seem to take so much glee in making fun of.
I'm not even a Destiny fan but it's about time someone tried to get this community to try and do something about this, and it clearly isn't going to be the people on this show.
You are really not getting it at all. They are not shitting on him for trying to do something. They want to do something themselves. That's what they are all about, doing something. They just stated that yelling at Blizzard isn't the only and probably not the best way.
How can you not get that? They want to do something too, just like Destiny, but in another way.
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On October 24 2012 10:32 IdrA wrote:
just posting saying that the game is going to die without blizzards support is not only unproductive, but counterproductive as it gets people set on the idea and causes a bunch of negative publicity.
which could be really good for the long run because blizz wants to prevent negative publicity.
and one very logical step to do so is fix the problems that cause that.
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Destiny TY for trying to defend SC,I love your commitment to this game, I feel your passion ...this is your job.Your out there legitimately training and If SC doesnt succeed you wont have a job. Wheat will always have a job in Esports.....whether SC fails or not he will simply cast the next game,you dont have that luxury so I get it.
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On October 24 2012 10:30 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:13 Nabes wrote:On October 24 2012 10:12 neurosx wrote:On October 24 2012 10:09 JPSke wrote:
As a fan of SC2 this show was incredibly depressing.
The fact that you guys are willing to accept Blizzard's bullshit and go so far as to take a dump on people who are tired of this ridiculous lack of responsiveness.....I dunno. You guys are building your careers around this game, a game that could be promoted and much more accessible to more people if only Blizzard would hold up their end of the bargain, and yet you just accept that your complaints accomplish nothing. It seems like you've accepted that what you consider to be the right way to interact with Blizzard in the hopes of making progress isn't going to work, yet you are actively shitting on people who believe its time to take a more proactive approach. And yes, I know, tweeting at Blizzard isn't going to do it. Neither is a big post on Reddit. But if all the big people within the SC2 scene get together and demand change? That might have an impact. But no, you guys are just going to continue on, accept the pitiful support Blizzard is giving this game, and let the game stagnate.
This community is the best competitive community in existence, and the fact that it continues to decline in comparison to others primarily due to those games making advances and focusing on their customers...it's sad. You say the negativity is harmful, but it is more harmful to just accept this. I promise you if all the influential members within the community banded together to get Blizzard to be a little more responsive it would energize everyone, it would be a story, it would grow the community just by pulling it together with a common cause. And yet you guys seem to think any public sort of complaint, which is honestly the only way to apply any sort of pressure whatsoever to Blizzard, is the wrong way to go about doing things. I just don't get it.
I've been here since SC2 launched, and I watch a lot more than I play now. But if the community is just going to accept being second rate it may be time for me to move on. I just don't understand how the people most directly impacted by the situation are willing to take such a laissez faire attitude. In Brood War putting your head down and saying "we'll make it work" was one thing, but E-Sports has arrived, and accepting that SC2 is going to be a minor player going forward in the scene just because Blizzard won't get off their ass and support the game is incomprehensible to me. You can bash Destiny for crying wolf, but at least the guy is willing to state that this is a real problem, one that has a major impact on the viability of SC2 going forward. It's time someone said it, even if he didn't go about doing it the way you would have. The thing you don't get is that, there could be a forum post with 4500 pages, they still wouldn't do shit about it so the argument is moot from the beginning. WE CAN'T HOPE FOR BLIZZARD TO FIX IT. So what do you suggest we as a community do? we already have high quality tournaments, what else is there to do? There is plenty to do. Tournaments are far from perfect. Coverage is far from perfect. We have a great base right now. But there is still work to do. Its about building on that base, perfecting what we are doing. Just because LoL is bigger doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Its a joke that Destiny even talks about it that way. And talking about Dota.... I love Dota, but it has a ways to go until it is on sc2's level. Yeah they got great viewership for TI2. Half from China though. And without China for the SL3 finals, arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament right now, they had 60k viewers. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that EG pays Stephano as much as their entire Dota 2 squad actually. Every esport has a ton of work to do. I think a lot of people see what Riot is doing since they control everything and hopes that Blizzard just does it cause its easier that way.
Destiny likes to talk in hyperbole to really drive his points home. One of the things I get from his argument is that SC2 should be where LoL is. I mean, it's very similar to the way I see the fighting game community. The FGC by all means should have been where SC is in e-sports, but is as far away from e-sports as they want themselves to be.
SC: BW is the granddaddy of the e-sports scenes and had a great base to start off of. While Blizzard, by and large, tried
to create the same game with SC2: WoL and they did, but they forgot one thing. It was one of the most important things a game like SC needs to survive and that is the sense of community. It's like the difference between coming home and being comfortable and going to a hotel. Yes there's a pretty good community size for SC2, but it should be a lot bigger than it is.
The community is doing all it can for SC2 to grow, but that real growth has to come from Blizzard. They're really the only ones who drive the potential of the game.
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On October 24 2012 10:41 OblivionMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:39 jmbthirteen wrote:
Its what we have been doing for 2 years and despite this doom and gloom bullshit, things have been going pretty damn well. That's a great philosophy while in decline: Just keep going! We can last another year guys, like, at least! Maybe two! Omg! So much StarCraft 2 ahead of us!
Yea because apparently you can't make a dime with SC2. NO ONE is watching progamers playing.
SC2 streams are dead, SC2 tournys empty. No sponsors in sight!
I sometimes feel like there is some parallel world, and some posts which are meant for the parallel-TL appear here.
In that parallel world SC2 must be really struggling....
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On October 24 2012 10:42 kinglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:32 IdrA wrote:
just posting saying that the game is going to die without blizzards support is not only unproductive, but counterproductive as it gets people set on the idea and causes a bunch of negative publicity. which could be really good for the long run because blizz wants to prevent negative publicity. and one very logical step to do so is fix the problems that cause that.
Yeah, if by Legacy of the Void (if TL is still up and running  ), there are all sorts of attractive features in Battlenet and the game overall, people are going to overlook the shit that is going on right now, and the negative effects MAYBE WONT of today (cuz I dont live in the industry like Idra) be a big deal in the long run.
I'm not being sarcastic to idra; I'm just ignorant, but I think in the long run, if *this* gets blizzard moving in a positive way, it'll have been worth it.
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On October 24 2012 10:36 OblivionMage wrote:
Amazing that incontrol and idra said they've given up on Blizzard doing anything while admitting that SC2 viewers are down while LoL viewers are (way) up (and that total viewers are up (like that means anything at all)). They're saying that SC2 is totally doomed unless HotS does something to stop the viewer bleed. Then, they berate Destiny for 'going all-in on Blizzard', and for 'being negative' (yeah, they're being totally positive, guys).
Are they completely retarded? At least Destiny is trying to change something instead of sitting on his EG salary bragging about getting a raise while bragging about his 'debate background'. Unbelievable behavior from Incontrol, I held him in higher regard.
Painuser was reasonable, as always, and djWHEAT was too emotionally invested to really say much.
hes advocating doing the same thing we've been doing for the last two years, just being a lot more bombastic and obnoxious about it. hes not trying to change anything. he just wants attention.
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On October 24 2012 10:43 mjnbowlgod wrote:
Destiny TY for trying to defend SC,I love your commitment to this game, I feel your passion ...this is your job.Your out there legitimately training and If SC doesnt succeed you wont have a job. Wheat will always have a job in Esports.....whether SC fails or not he will simply cast the next game,you dont have that luxury so I get it.
Yeah destiny isn't the type of guy to stream the game where he has the most views right .. so biased
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I'm curious if Wheat and friends think starcraft 2 will still be headlining majour events come legacy of the void given the growth of lol/dota2. Can you really afford to peak and dwindle when content becomes less accessible and the sponsors returns shrink?
They seemed to have great arguments for the continued success of esports but not neccassarily starcaft.
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On October 24 2012 10:36 OblivionMage wrote:
Amazing that incontrol and idra said they've given up on Blizzard doing anything while admitting that SC2 viewers are down while LoL viewers are (way) up (and that total viewers are up (like that means anything at all)). They're saying that SC2 is totally doomed unless HotS does something to stop the viewer bleed. Then, they berate Destiny for 'going all-in on Blizzard', and for 'being negative' (yeah, they're being totally positive, guys).
Are they completely retarded? At least Destiny is trying to change something instead of sitting on his EG salary bragging about getting a raise while bragging about his 'debate background'. Unbelievable behavior from Incontrol, I held him in higher regard.
Painuser was reasonable, as always, and djWHEAT was too emotionally invested to really say much.
There's a saying in finnish called "väärin sammutettu", which can be translated as "wrongly put out fire"
(too lazy to translate so used google translate: )
The term "wrongly put out fire," it is customary to use the negative sense in a situation where there is someone who has worked itself appropriately but some institutional or other social frame of reference outside of the framework. The name comes from the story, where volunteers extinguish the fire, and the professional firefighters arrived, they argue that it is wrongly put out.
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EPT
